Okay, so I finally got off my butt and started cleaning the dirty greasy thing. It wasnt awful, but, ya know....
This goes out to you old salts that been around a while. How far do I go? I am thinking of pulling the motor. The reasoning is, I know nothing about it. I dont know its age, time since overhaul, I dont know beans other than it seems to run pretty good. Lil smoke on start up then clear. Has a minor thunk thunk thunk miss kind of sound on the left side, but its light. Also, its sitting here in the yard not going anywhere for a while, so why not?
My thinking is pull it out, check the trans, driveshaft, drop box, diff, put in a new clutch, pull the rear housing and check gears, timing, replace all gaskets and seals, coolant hoses, hard to get at high pressure stuff, etc.. And while its out clean up the bay.
Or not. How much can be checked out without pulling it?? Do I understand the clutch can be replaced by simply sliding the engine back??? I just dont want toget it apart and find myself in over my head. But I like knowing stuff is solid too.
If you pull it, rebuild it.
I wasnt looking to overhaul everything, just clean and service, fix anything thats questionable, replace expendables.
3, 4 years ago, I decided to pull the engine out of my Courier 96 to clean up some oil leaks. I ended up doing a complete overhaul and turboing it, doing the clutch, the diff, etc. Took all winter. I learned a lot, and generally enjoyed it. And found it to be a big undertaking. Good thing I have the time. Probably 4, 500 hrs. Worthwhile though. You can't beat the satisfaction of having done that yourself.
On the other hand, if it runs well enough now, just leave it alone. It will likely run for you like that for a long time. At least use the bus now as is and enjoy it before you get burned out working on it.
JC
Paul, if it starts good, runs good, doesn't over heat in a hurry and pumping a bunch of oil from the drains leave it alone.While you have it out pull the injectors and have those tested probably a couple leaking causes the smoke on start-up do a good tune up and if you have the old 2 screw fuel rods chunk those remove the emergency shutdown,replace the rubber connection on the blower and the small seals on the oil feed to the blower and run that puppy.
Fwiw I would pull the drop box and install new bearing those cost a fortune to rebuild on the road you MCI guys should have a network to ship drop boxes like the Eagle guys good system they have.
I am out of drop boxes you MCI guys have picked me clean over the years lol
good luck
Clifford, there was that blower bearing deal a week or so back that wrecked a motor. Any bearings good to replace while its easy to reach??? Anything I can look at in the gearbox?
I thought I would pull as much off as I could and replace as many gaskets and seals as I can, replace crank bearings, etc... I may never go to Alaska, but I can prepare, lol.
Paul, if you change the blower bearing do the seals also the guy that lost his engine probably had no screen under his blower you see that all the time blowers with no screens why I'll never know that is what they are for is to catch the flying pieces , don't forget the photos when you pull the blower we would love to see the job your oil bath air cleaners are doing lol sorry I just had to do that
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on August 17, 2011, 08:52:51 PM
don't forget the photos when you pull the blower we would love to see the job your oil bath air cleaners are doing lol sorry I just had to do that
good luck
LOL, you dont let much slip by do you.
there was no screen under my blower, just on top of it. I ordered the screen shown under the blower in the parts manual, but when it came it was the screen on the top. There supposed to be another screen under it?
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 17, 2011, 09:32:31 PM
I ordered the screen shown under the blower in the parts manual, but when it came it was the screen on the top.
If the parts book shows a screen under the blower, I would believe the parts book rather than the parts man.
FWIW my pilot bearing and throwout bearing were toast. I feel good about getting new ones in. Someone might be able to replace a clutch with the engine slid back but it wouldn't be me, I honestly think it would be easier and quicker to pull the whole power pack out. A good time to also change the air compressor, power steering pump, check out the drives, and while you're there pull the back off and check the idler gear bearing and reseal the back cover (what Sean just had done to Odyssey). You'd have to be awfully bored though. It will take several hundred hours, the majority spent cleaning building stands, dollys, etc. I can't say it's a bad idea, since I basically did the same thing, I just had my replacement motor already since I pretty much knew my old one needed to be rebuilt.
Brian
Thats some of the stuff I was thinking about, bearings you cannot get to without pulling the motor, bearings or parts (gears) that could fail and take out the motor.
Its sure nice to get the grime out of there though, I might actually be able to climb in there soon without coming out covered with filth.
I tried the Armor All and windex trick, ewww. What an ishy mess. Im thinking it might work on something thats more or less already clean, but on heavy grime it dont do much. I bought 10 cans of gunk engine cleaner and carefully pressure washed it. Next I think I will wash it down with mineral spirits to spray out the nooks and cranies.
Interestingly, the engine was/is cleaner than everything else, making me think it was replaced at some point but nothing else was cleaned up. The AC compressor had more grime on it than the engine did. Onward through the fog.
Rather than put some spendy 40 weight oil in it, what could I run in it just to flush it out? Im thinking some cheap 20 or 30 weight with some MMO, let it idle warm and pull the plug.
Paul. if you have a compressor the air gun with the siphon for liquids is a must cleaning tool they don't make a mess and use very little of the cleaning agent of your choice JMO
good luck
I have never noticed that 40 weight oil was any more expensive than any other oil, but maybe. Try Walmart, mine carries Techtron 40W CF2 in stock. $39 for a five gallon pail, that's $1.95 a quart which strikes me as cheap as heck.
Brian
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2011, 06:02:38 AM
Paul. if you have a compressor the air gun with the siphon for liquids is a must cleaning tool they don't make a mess and use very little of the cleaning agent of your choice JMO
good luck
Yeah I have all that, and a 5 gallon pail of mineral spirits. Thats how we cleaned aircraft when we annualed/100 houred them, we sprayed em down. But first I had to get through the thick caked on grime. That compressor is shiney grey now instead of grimey black, lol. Lots of blue hoses too, lol.
"there was no screen under my blower, just on top of it. I ordered the screen shown under the blower in the parts manual, but when it came it was the screen on the top. There supposed to be another screen under it?"
My parts book shows both screens have the same part number - 5128033. MCI part book FWIW so it may not be a DD part number, but both screens are identical as far as it's concerned.
Edit: the more I use it the more I have to say I love the parts book! the exploded parts diagrams have been extremely useful when you took something apart 8 months ago and have never put it together before! ;D
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on August 18, 2011, 06:15:28 AM
I have never noticed that 40 weight oil was any more expensive than any other oil, but maybe. Try Walmart, mine carries Techtron 40W CF2 in stock. $39 for a five gallon pail, that's $1.95 a quart which strikes me as cheap as heck.
Brian
Any idea how much oil it needs to reach the pickup? If its just idling and not moving, it doesnt need to have a full 10 gallons in it.
Walmart just carries the 30w here in the states Brian the Techtron is Citgo oil good stuff
good luck
Nothing better then having everything in the engine compartment rebuilt. Everything in my engine compartment has been rebuilt-except the oil cooler on the engine-which is now leaking. Going to take it to Don Fairchild in a couple of weeks-and since it is a V drive, probably will pull the whole engine/transmission cradle out (transit bus) to make it easier to access (about a 2 hour job).
It's ironic how not rebuilding one component will come back and bite you in the butt. Same thing happened after I in frame rebuilt my Caterpillar 3406B in my big truck. The water pump was fine, and didn't replace it. And sure enough about 6 months later it quit working-the impeller spun on the shaft.
So I would pull the engine, take it completely apart, measure and inspect all components and replace what is worn or close to needing replacing-including the transmission. Then you'll have real piece of mind. Finding a 2 stroke mechanic on the road-especially where you decide to break down is becoming a real challenge. Or-just replace the engine with a 4 stroker and be done with it. Good Luck, TomC
Yea replace it with a 4 stroke won't cost much with different transmission and rear gear you should be able to do all that for around 40'g lol.
I know of a Eagle the guy spent 71,000 for that swap sold the bus for in the 80's made a lot of sense to me lol and forget about the 10mpg without driving 50 mph
good luck
Being a flat lander, I actually thought about purchasing a spare 8V71 from someone who is "upgrading" to a big 4 stroke. Of course, I'm not talking about a worn out core, but a good running take out. But, then I have to make room to store it and at the moment I have enough stuff to spend money on!
Boyce
I'll have a good running take out 8v71n after I replace it with the same, it will be available next June or July. It will be mated to a 4 speed spicer. So there ya go, find some room! ;D
It will be located in Vancouver, WA if you're interested.
HAHA, maybe if I get mine roadworthy by then, that would be a good shake down cruise! SC to WA on first road trip. Put the 8V71 in the luggage bay and head back to SC!
Boyce
How about a 6V92?
http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=604265 (http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=604265)
Not overhauling, just freshening, cleaning, repairing, painting, new hoses, seals, gaskets, etc.. Im more interested in finding the silent killers we keep reading about.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2011, 08:03:27 AM
Yea replace it with a 4 stroke won't cost much with different transmission and rear gear you should be able to do all that for around 40'g lol.
I know of a Eagle the guy spent 71,000 for that swap sold the bus for in the 80's made a lot of sense to me lol and forget about the 10mpg without driving 50 mph
good luck
Not much sense putting a fortune into something you cant sell for much more than scrap today. Made some sense a few years ago when they were worth something and selling, but not today. Can buy a lot of fuel for $40K, lol
Quote from: bevans6 on August 18, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
"there was no screen under my blower, just on top of it. I ordered the screen shown under the blower in the parts manual, but when it came it was the screen on the top. There supposed to be another screen under it?"
My parts book shows both screens have the same part number - 5128033. MCI part book FWIW so it may not be a DD part number, but both screens are identical as far as it's concerned.
I ordered the screen using the number out of the MCI parts book, and verified the part number attached to the screen when it got here. My book shows different part numbers for the screen above and the screen below. I dunno? ??? ??? I even went back over my notes and made sure I wrote down the correct number. I guess now I have another reason to remove my blower again. It strikes me as strange that there was not a screen under it to begin with, but the book clearly shows one. What say the Yoda?
Don't worry about it Derrick I have some underneath blower screens hanging in the shop they are larger than the top screen,the top screen is a must with a turbo,your Jakes will be here Friday Ed told me
good luck
Hey Clifford, that 2 day layover at the "clifford rv resort and bus garage" seems to be getting longer. You like rainbow trout? I may have to throw some your way.
Art,
he oil vscosity and pressure and bearing area and..... is designed for that engine making max HP and pistol hot under full load. My feeling (got that part) is that a D isn't all that much different than a gasser in many respects. 40 wt is what you need for it to work. It would probably idle warm for 20 years if it weren't for the 2 strokes bad idle habits. I have done many engines this way: Over fill....just add...a couple gallons of D fuel. Run her warm at fast idle and drain. Change filters. Clifford says the galleys don't drain without removing a plug inside the crank case. I would refill with fresh oil and filters and rely on the D in the galleys being purged naturally.
There is a PM that calls for the bearings being replaced every 100K or whatever...check Da Book. Regardless, drop the pan and mic the bearings. That is the opportunity to drain the galleys.
By dramatically overfilling you get that crank case thrashing D diluted oil aroung there at warp speed. Everything gets sparkly clean and the warm oil drain takes it out. For a new car (new to me) I add a quart of methanol to the crank case of a cold engine and start and head for the freeway and high rpm and a quick warm up. The meth is gone in 5 minutes under load. That takes all the varnish out as the D won't touch that. I don't really care about the interior looks but the additives in the oil "try" to remove that stuff and get really tired quick so getting it clean to start is my procedure. A D engine might try to run away with meth in the oil and that sure needs to be considered.
You are a man after my own heart in some regards. I also have taken down engines to "look around and be sure". Then I fed them all the best stuff and drove'em like I stole 'em. Oh to be young again.
Good luck and enjoy the adventure,
If you can find an aftercooler and your block will allow it to be mounted I would do that.
With all the filth you are talking about I would go to the nearest truck garage and get the bay STEAM cleaned. Let them deal with the mess and crap that comes off. They are the "professionals". NOTHING takes care of this kind of job other than high pressure steam.....nothing. They add caustic base to the steam water mix at the gun. When they are done it doesn't even feel slick. You should be paint ready for any bare metal that shows up that the grime was preserving.
John
John, not trying to get around using the correct oil to drive it, I was simply thinking out loud about some cheap oil just to let it idle and run up to temp and then dump it. The stuff thats in it has been in there for at least a couple years, but I dont know how long for sure.
Diesel fuel really doesnt clean very well by the way. High detergent oil cleans pretty good, or at least maintains the level of cleanliness. MMO cleans pretty good, plus it leaves a slippery protective film behind. Wax? I dunno.
Anyway, if I am going to work on it I aint working in filth. So the first attack is cleaning.
If I can motivate myself and find the time (which are the two hardest things to find right now), what I would like to do is pull it out, disassemble as much as I feel necessary to inspect and replace as many seals and gaskets as I can, bearings, clean and paint everything and reassemble. In the process I would also check out all the accessories, replace all the coolant hose, check all the high press lines, possibly re-do the ones hardest to reach, put in a new clutch, yada yada yada. While its out it would also be nice to clean and detail the engine bay so it all looks pretty. Thats what I "want" to do.
But I aint stupid, thats a LOT of darn work, and I could just as easily talk myself out of it. For now I am going to keep cleaning so I can get in there and work. I'll start by pulling the rocker covers and side covers and get my nose in there and see where it takes me. It does have an oil leak under the water pump, other than that I havnt seen anything else physically leaking. It all seems more "oil sprayed".
It was much worse, some bolts around the water pump were loose, now it barely drips and thats the only drip it leaves on the ground. I had it running in the driveway for over an hour, off and on, and it only left a puddle about the size of a silver dollar. I would imagine its quite a whilwind back there, could a minor oilleak cover everything??
Does anyone know of a way to determine clutch wear?
Artvonne, in my experience you really need to get it out and run it good and hard to verify the leaks are gone. I can let mine sit and run for an hour with just a drip or two, but run it down the highway for an hour and it's time for a wash down. These things can blow oil out at high rpm that would not at an idle or even high idle. Just my experience, YMMV.
Correctly adjust your clutch per these instructions, then measure the distance between the arm and the round thing you turn to adjust, per the picture. Theoretically it can be a way to judge clutch wear, I've never done it.
Brian
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 19, 2011, 08:48:17 AM
Artvonne, in my experience you really need to get it out and run it good and hard to verify the leaks are gone.
I drove it home 200 miles, kept catching myself running over 75 mph and kept dropping back to 65. Everything stayed dry, no oil leaks anywhere except that area under the water pump. Oil level stayed the same too. Before I tightened those bolts I could watch it drip down when it was running, some of the bolts were finger loose. But your right, I really should go drive it.
I wouldn't do anything until you drive it except take the air box covers off and look inside the air box. If it's clean and you drive it you can see what leaks and form a plan of attack. If nothing leaks, then don't fix things that aren't broken...
Brian
Quote from: artvonne on August 19, 2011, 08:37:10 AM
John, not trying to get around using the correct oil to drive it, I was simply thinking out loud about some cheap oil just to let it idle and run up to temp and then dump it. The stuff thats in it has been in there for at least a couple years, but I dont know how long for sure.
Diesel fuel really doesnt clean very well by the way. High detergent oil cleans pretty good, or at least maintains the level of cleanliness. MMO cleans pretty good, plus it leaves a slippery protective film behind. Wax? I dunno.
You are good by me. I thought you were looking at using junk oil for the flush and that is safe and makes perfect sense to me. Especially, since I do the same thing. I used to buy spendy race oil and the thought of using it for a flush brought the Jew in me to it's feet.
If the oil in the engine is "unknown" I too would dump it before the flush operation.
I used to change oil on the first of the month or at 2K miles...whichever came first. My engines in side looked like the day i put them together. I checked valve lash at 2 K also and re synced the carbs in my competition Z car. In short, you are absolutely correct about quality oil keeping everything pristine in there. D would not have cleaned them much. On the other hand, I have had many friends stop by cause their lifters were hammering and i have opened up every new purchase car I owned and many many friends new rigs. All were dirty by my standard and some were full of sludge. My flush is to dump a gallon of D into a 5 quart crank case and run till hot at fast idle with blips. That is serious overfill and puts the crank in the oil so there is a lot of oil flying around in the crank case. After my drain and fill with filter I have always noted that the oil darkens after less than a couple hundred miles so I know the detergents are working. After that first change after the flush I have had barely any color after 2K miles. The lifters stop hammering after a 10 minute run with hot oil and a gallon of D. A Navy Chief Engine-man taught me that when he shut up a Dodge that had been sitting for over at year waiting for him to get back. He said that it was SOP in the Navy Small engine shop. Seems the Sailors abuse their equipment. Who wooda guessed?
You sound like I think I may sound....a little. We are of like mind on most of these topics.
Nice talking with you,
John
Nice talking to you to, John. And everyone else as well. Id never bought a Bus if it wasnt for this forum. I just dont think so.
I bought two gallons of MMO today. Im going to dump in a gallon and run it a while then dump it hot, change filters, refill with fresh oil with the other gallon of MMO and run it a bit. Then dump it again.
Except for the left rear under the water pump, the engine wasnt that dirty and cleaned up pretty good. Its everything else thats filthy. It would be easy to assume an engine was put in without cleaning everything pristine. For example, the paint on the engine looks bright green, but everything else, water connections and other parts bolted to it, like the water pump, transmission, etc., look older, crusty. So I will just keep poking along and see what happens. I sure would like to get it out of there though. I like clean engines and engine compartments. We'll see. Its just bolts right?
Quote from: bevans6 on August 19, 2011, 10:17:16 AM
I wouldn't do anything until you drive it except take the air box covers off and look inside the air box. If it's clean and you drive it you can see what leaks and form a plan of attack. If nothing leaks, then don't fix things that aren't broken...
Brian
Not looking to make more work, just thinking about those things that go bang in the night. I'll just keep digging my way in and see how far it takes me.