I am looking at a 1980 TMC/MCI 9. The bus has a 8V71 (non turbo) mated to a 5 speed Allison. All fiberglass body with custom paint. 10 KW Onan genny, no inverter or batteries. I did a cursory inspection a few days ago and everything checked out...no corrosion (bus from MS), bays look good, engine purrs nice with no smoke, dives like a dream and the bus has high quality workmanship throughout. The conversion was completed 4 years ago and the owner has put on about 12k miles since.
My questions are:
We like to spend time in the Rockies, will I wish I didn't have the non turbo 71? It also has 250k on it. The owner brought it to a reputable local diesel mechanic and he advised to not touch it as it looked, sounded and check out great. The owner used poly-wrapped fiberglass insulation, and it was attached to the frame to keep it from settling. Has anyone had experience with this method?
Overall he did a nice job on the conversion and mechanically it appears solid. I am planning on spending a day going through the bus and would like to hear everyone's thoughts or items I should be concerned about.
Thanks guys!
OK first off to answer your question. NO an 8V71 is not a deal breaker, if you are patient and are in no hurries to get where you are going.
Is it a power house that will fly through the mountains and keep up with cars? NO
Is it the most modern or economical engine? NO
Is it a proven and reliable engine? YES! But they do have to be driven right and cared for or you will absolutely hate it.
Now as for the MCI 9 you are looking at. You say 5spd Allison? I am willing to bet it's only a 4 spd. A 5 spd is very rare in a non DDEC coach.
Also you say "All fiberglass body" hmmm that don't sound right either! I'm scared for you all ready and I'm going to run far and fast for you! And I suggest you do too! Run Wolverine Run!
;D BK ;D
I personally think the 8V71N is a very good engine, easy to tune up to the legendary 318 hp particularly with modern injectors that don't need advanced timing. Fairly equal to the other main choice - 6V92TA which has equivalent HP in most bus tunes but being turbocharged can be tuned up to around 350 hp without internal modifications. You can turbo an 8V71N but to get the most you should change the pistons, etc, not a weekend task. In terms of performance - an 8V71 is probably going to get worse fuel mileage and be slower than the more efficient and potentially more powerful 6V92. If you decide on a repower, 8V92 is a possibility but finding one set up for MCI is going to be hard.
I'd base your decision on the bus, the conversion, the price, and the condition more than which engine it has. All of the usually suspect choices are going to be slow in the mountains. 5 speed Allison is a very nice touch if you aren't just counting lockup converter as an extra gear.
Yes, it's a 5 speed. The owner who did the conversion has 20+ years as a custom truck body fabricator and specializes in fiberglass, so that is why it's all glass. If you like the traditional look, probably not for you but if you like the seamless panels (which I do on this bus) it is sharp.
Quote from: WI Wolverine on August 17, 2011, 09:45:15 AM
Yes, it's a 5 speed. The owner who did the conversion has 20+ years as a custom truck body fabricator and specializes in fiberglass, so that is why it's all glass. If you like the traditional look, probably not for you but if you like the seamless panels (which I do on this bus) it is sharp.
OK that is really what scares me! Especially if it's the great white whale that was redone in fiberglass in FL a while back with the side door in the rear for a motorcycle garage.
No windows etc. (it appears here and there in different locations with different stories from time to time)
OK now since I do not access to see the exact coach you are looking at or even pictures I still stand my ground!
I could be wrong. But once I thought I was, and it turned out I was mistaken.
I ain't say'n I'm perfect or know EVERYTHING. But I know a lot and what I don't know I have friends here and elsewhere that do.
I just hate to see a novice get taken on their first experience and get run away from the hobby by the terrible taste of a bad buy from a crooked salesperson.
I'm still running unless you'd like to provide us a link to farther access it for you I still stand my ground!
;D B K ;D
BK Why don't you say what you really mean. LOL LOL
I am planning on the upcoming rally you and Don are planning.
Hope I come out better this time.
Have a nice day.
Uncle Ned
Ok, since no one else will beg, I'll do it. PLEASE post photos! If a photo says a thousand words, save your fingers from typing and post a photo of said coach ;D Is the fiberglass just the outer skin? Is it the roof too? Is it skinned in fiberglass from the beltline (stainless) on up?
Well Ned I just like to be honest!
You know how I am. I have a big mouth and I do know what both my feet taste like! My daddy always told me "son if ya can't afford to tell the truth, you sure can't afford to cover up a lie!"
and "If you always tell the truth, you don't have to remember which lie you told who!"
I may not be right, but I do tell it like I see it! (see the post about a possible start! LOL!)
And yes we are looking forward to seeing you here too. But this time I don't know if we're going to be able to allow you to go to "Pickwick" after you leave here.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Scotty on August 17, 2011, 10:08:05 AM
Ok, since no one else will beg, I'll do it. PLEASE post photos! If a photo says a thousand words, save your fingers from typing and post a photo of said coach ;D Is the fiberglass just the outer skin? Is it the roof too? Is it skinned in fiberglass from the beltline (stainless) on up?
AH Scotty I admire your quest, but I for one NEVER beg.
I have lived with those initials all my life and I just don't do it!
;D BK ;D aka Bryce E. Gaston
BK,
Your insight, along with everyone else's on this and other boards has helped me immensely already. That's why I threw this out here before I got too far.
I don't think this is the bus from FL...here's a link to the bus:
http://nationalmotorsales.com/addetails.php?slno=10037 (http://nationalmotorsales.com/addetails.php?slno=10037)
In the "for what it's worth" category I just popped in on the owner last week and asked to see his bus for sale (heard about it from a friend) and his home, old fashioned garage, pole shed, and all his toys were immaculate...always a good sign. He obviously was more than happy to swap stories and show off his baby.
Quote from: WI Wolverine on August 17, 2011, 10:20:21 AM
BK,
Your insight, along with everyone else's on this and other boards has helped me immensely already. That's why I threw this out here before I got too far.
I don't think this is the bus from FL...here's a link to the bus:
http://nationalmotorsales.com/addetails.php?slno=10037 (http://nationalmotorsales.com/addetails.php?slno=10037)
In the "for what it's worth" category I just popped in on the owner last week and asked to see his bus for sale (heard about it from a friend) and his home, old fashioned garage, pole shed, and all his toys were immaculate...always a good sign. He obviously was more than happy to swap stories and show off his baby.
OK with that link and a little more insight I give it a thumbs up! I't definitely not the "White Elephant" that surfaces from time to time.
And not to make you feel/look bad, but your description was not quite accurate.
It has had a "fiberglass smooth side kit" put on it on the lower 1/2. Which is a very popular modification.
However it appears the rest is standard MCI construction with the exception of the window skins.
Yes it looks like a very nice coach. And yes I agree that if all his toys are nice it's most likely in great shape.
;D BK ;D
That looks nice to me, hard to tell for sure in the photos but if you've seen it in person you would know better. It looks like an update kit to me. The stainless that's gone is mostly non-structural, you can buy the kits for the front aspect. the sides, I always felt that the thick aluminium riveted on below the windows and above the bay doors was structural, but maybe not. No roof raise which speaks to a more solid chassis, and the roof appears stock front to back. Just my thoughts.
Brian
Is there enough physical driveline length to hang the 5 speed Allision? Dunno fur sures. And if soossss...what does that do to the driveline U-joint angle and service life?
Is the 8V71N a "318", or does it have a reduced rating? MIGHT make a difference going up hills if one is in a hurry. A true CR 5 speed would work well with the 8V71N HB of CJ (old coot)
One more question for those way smarter than I. After taking it for a quick spin and the bus was shut down, the owner said that to restart the bus he had to crack an air line on the Rear of the engine...said it acted up on his previous trip and he hadn't looked into it yet. Was thinking his skinner valve needs cleaning or rebuilding...does that sound accurate? I had to leave, but want as much info when I go back to look it over on depth.
Nice coach :) I'd be so curious someday to know what the curb weight is. I had completely different visions dancing in my head when you suggested it was glassed. But it looks fantastic. Reminds me of Hershey's. I'd totally have a Hershey's logo put on if I owned it. The ladies at every rally would flock 8) Oh yeah, Bryce, you can't run away from your name.... ;D
Wolverine,
Yes that is a common problem with the skinner valve/shut down cylinders. (1/2 the time they act up this way, and the other 1/2 they act up where they won't shut it down!)
But it's not a major issue.
I believe it still has the stock sides from looking @ the window openings. (but I could be wrong, especially from looking at a picture that is not "close up")
It appears to be well done and I'd say if the price is right it should be a decent bus.
Now if it even slightly resembled the "White Elephant" of our past enjoyment of the series of lies and pour choice of modifications I would be screaming RUN RUN RUN!
I wish I knew where to look to find a link to it without spending a day or 2 searching for it.
;D BK ;D
Sorry the link to the ebay add no longer works but here is 1 of the many threads where we discussed the "white elephant" I was referring too.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7414.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7414.0)
;D BK ;D
Thanks for the input BK! At first when I saw the pictures, it didn't stand out. I wanted to look at it just to get more experince with these buses and it really impressed me.
What's your thoughts on his asking price? Mileage on engine?
I had to go back & look as I'd not paid attn to his asking price or the mileage.
OK I really hate to say it because it looks like the guy did a very nice job on it and has spent some serious $ building it. But in this market the asking price is way too high!
I'm not saying it's not worth it, or that he doesn't have that much & more into it. But with the bus market being in the tanks these days, you can get just as much or more for less!
The drive train may have 187,000 on it. But I assure you that bus has seen many many many more miles than that. (not saying that is bad either)
It's a shame but in today's market the asking price is about 2-3 times higher than it will bring.
;D BK ;D
That's kind of what I was thinking. Sometimes owners, especially those who have done the conversion themselves become too attached (and rightfully so) and won't acknowledge where the market is. I don't think he is too motivated to sell, but if everything checks out when I look it over I'll get a real number and report back. Worst case, I get to spend a day crawling around/in a bus!
If you are ready to buy and looking for a seriously good deal you should check out this one.
http://mohave.craigslist.org/rvs/2488976485.html (http://mohave.craigslist.org/rvs/2488976485.html)
for more discussion about it look here;
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20934.msg228899#msg228899 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20934.msg228899#msg228899) and/or here; http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21111.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21111.0)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: bevans6 on August 17, 2011, 10:47:14 AM
That looks nice to me, hard to tell for sure in the photos but if you've seen it in person you would know better. It looks like an update kit to me. The stainless that's gone is mostly non-structural, you can buy the kits for the front aspect. the sides, I always felt that the thick aluminium riveted on below the windows and above the bay doors was structural, but maybe not. No roof raise which speaks to a more solid chassis, and the roof appears stock front to back. Just my thoughts.
Isn't the the signboard section of an MC9 steel? I know I've seen plenty of 102A3s at ABC Bus here in Minnesota with rusted out signboards. Maybe they changed between the 9 and the 102A3.
Quote from: belfert on August 17, 2011, 01:39:35 PM
Isn't the the signboard section of an MC9 steel? I know I've seen plenty of 102A3s at ABC Bus here in Minnesota with rusted out signboards. Maybe they changed between the 9 and the 102A3.
No on the 9 they hung in the top of the right side windshield and on the 96A, 102A, & C models they had their own top windshield. I think you are thinking of NJT's big ugly sign boards which were built into the ugly fiberglass caps!
;D BK ;D
If you are happy and the bus checks out mechanically then I say spend your money the way you want. Make sure the BOSS is comfortable and the rest should be a cake walk. I too am always interested in seeing other "projects" or general living conditions to give me an idea of how well someone takes care of their toys.
Look forward to seeing more pictures with you standing in front of the bus with the keys!!!
Good luck!
Grant
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on August 17, 2011, 01:46:11 PM
Quote from: belfert on August 17, 2011, 01:39:35 PM
Isn't the the signboard section of an MC9 steel? I know I've seen plenty of 102A3s at ABC Bus here in Minnesota with rusted out signboards. Maybe they changed between the 9 and the 102A3.
No on the 9 they hung in the top of the right side windshield and on the 96A, 102A, & C models they had their own top windshield. I think you are thinking of NJT's big ugly sign boards which were built into the ugly fiberglass caps!
What I have heard called the signboard is the section on the sides of the bus between the bays and the windows. Bus companies often place the name of their company in large letters in this space. One salesperson said that section could be replaced. My thought was if the side of the bus is rusted completely through what does the rest of it look like?
It is my understanding that section is painted steel at least on the 102A3. I don't know if the 9 is aluminum or not, but I doubt it.
What you are describing is the destination sign.
The section between the bays and the windows along the sides, in my MC-5C, the same year as that bus, is heavy gauge aluminium rivited to a mild steel frame. Very structural. MC-9 is probably identical. It's not steel but the aluminium can corrode.
Brian
Quote from: belfert
What I have heard called the signboard is the section on the sides of the bus between the bays and the windows. Bus companies often place the name of their company in large letters in this space. One salesperson said that section could be replaced. My thought was if the side of the bus is rusted completely through what does the rest of it look like?
It is my understanding that section is painted steel at least on the 102A3. I don't know if the 9 is aluminum or not, but I doubt it.
What you are describing is the destination sign.
Yeah yer right I misread what you were talking about. But I can tell you that the MCI is not steel. We had some magnetic signs for temp use and they would not work on an MCI we had to hang a piece of sheet metal under the trim to use them on an MCI. But the stuck right to a Setra! ;)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: bevans6 on August 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
The section between the bays and the windows along the sides, in my MC-5C, the same year as that bus, is heavy gauge aluminium rivited to a mild steel frame. Very structural.
Brian
I dont know about yours or a MC9, but my MC5B skin is all stainless at least up to the windows. And its non magnetic. I'm assuming the roof is aluminum.
So, y'all having another West Tennessee gathering and trying to sneak it by me.
Well - a'int gonna happen. My friend in LA (lower alabama) keeps me up-to-date on these such things.
Gloria and I are coming, even if we have to leave the Eagle and slide over in the GMC.
If you like the coach get it! We have an 8v71N in our Eagle, it's slow on the hills but who cares. Enjoy the scenery and ride, you'll get to the top! Of course a Turbo would make it really go, but then I'm not in a race! I can run pretty good on the flats, faster than I want to go. We like to scoot at 65-70 mph, plenty fast enough for me!
If the sides of an MCI are not steel I wonder what was up with the MCIs I saw down at ABC Bus back in 2006? They were definitely rusted through below the windows and above the bays as the holes were brown/orange just like corroded steel. Maybe the sides had been replaced with steel?
I believe you guys who say they aren't steel from the factory. I don't have an MCI so I can't check my bus.
A 8v71 is not a bad engine just blind it so it can't see the hills in front of you and it will do fine lol those engines have pushed buses across the USA for years they always get you there and back home
good luck
had 8v71n got me there 6.8 mpg have 8v92 turbo gets me there fast 5 mpg have 60 serries with 10 spd eaton autoshift hoping for 7mpg will get me there. point being They all got me there and I enjoyed the ride and had a great time once there. Bob
Quote from: belfert on August 18, 2011, 06:16:17 AM
If the sides of an MCI are not steel I wonder what was up with the MCIs I saw down at ABC Bus back in 2006? They were definitely rusted through below the windows and above the bays as the holes were brown/orange just like corroded steel. Maybe the sides had been replaced with steel?
I believe you guys who say they aren't steel from the factory. I don't have an MCI so I can't check my bus.
Brian, factory MC9's were stainless from the luggage bay up to the beltline, then aluminum for the letterboard area, then aluminum window frames and aluminum roof with fiberglass front and rear caps. (roof caps, not face caps). The only steel in the coach was the mild steel frame underneath those skins. The aluminum can and does corrode right through, but the only orange rusty color you would see would be the mild steel underneath the corroded aluminum beginning to rust and leaking it's rusty water out onto the aluminum sheet.
Quote from: garhawk on August 18, 2011, 06:03:14 AM
So, y'all having another West Tennessee gathering and trying to sneak it by me.
Well - a'int gonna happen. My friend in LA (lower alabama) keeps me up-to-date on these such things.
Gloria and I are coming, even if we have to leave the Eagle and slide over in the GMC.
No Gary we ain't try'n to slip nothin' over on anybody.
It will be publicized when we get it more together. But yes Don & I are gonna co-host one next yr here in Huntingdon in the fall probably around Oct.
Everybody will be welcome! (and you and Gloria don't have to wait for a gathering, your welcome to stop in anytime!)
;D BK ;D
One of the main reasons I turbocharged my 8V-71 was the smoking issue in altitudes over 5,000ft and less power. But-I also only have a V730 three speed which with my 4.56 rear end and combined torque amplication of the 2.56 torque converter with 1.77 1st gear gives me an overall starting ratio of 20.66. Assuming you have the popular 3.70 gears, with the HT754CR starting gear of 3.692 (same as the HT740), 2 to one torque converter, your combined starting gear ratio would be 27.3 to one. And you have an over 5 to one reverse compared to the V730's reverse that's more like 2nd gear (I went 40mph in reverse one time in a big parking lot-and could have gone faster but chickened out). I wouldn't be afraid of taking your bus into the mountains-it will be slow-like sometimes 10-20mph, but you'll get there.
Turbo'ing the 8V-71 REALLY wakes it up. And, like what Don Fairchild thinks too, I believe the 71 series is much tougher then the 92 series. With the 71's dry cylinder liners you don't have to worry so much about coolant acidity as with the 92 series wet cylinder liners that can and do pit.
If you're going to keep the bus for many years-the best would be to convert to a modern 4 stroke engine. The Cummins ISL at 450hp and 1200lb/ft torque is a good one along with the Cummins ISM that can be turned up to 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. Then you'll have a runner that gets over 10mpg. Good Luck, TomC
8V71 is a lovely engine to get you there.
If your manhood is at stake, get out your wallet?
In a light, stock configured MC8, a stock 8V71 with the 270 hp setting with the 4 speed Allison 740 will climb the 6% interstate grade called Fancy Gap in the east in 3rd gear someplace close to 44 mph at its worst. Elevation is still down where it can breath...
A loaded MCI 102EL3 Renaissance loaded with a kids baseball team and all their stuff for spring training, with DD Series 60 400hp and 6 speed Allison World transmission climbs the same hill somewhere close to 50 mph in either 4th or 5th, only change is the temperature gauge.
With the same load, I expect that the MC8 would need to drop to the top of 2nd gear and run somewhere between 30 and 35 mph.
Higher elevations, the thinning air will degrade the 8V71, and the S50 will just keep pulling due to the turbo compensating for thin air by stuffing that much more in.
Apples and Oranges, but anyway, some real world experience to help with your guestimating.
What percentage of your time is spent climbing, and what are the costs for designing/choosing the coach for that really short time operational environment?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I would not say that the non-turbo 8v71 is a deal killer if you know the limitations and are prepared to accept them or deal with them. I do not think that I would buy another one though. In California, one does spend a lot of time climbing hills, often in high altitudes. It is not a great engine for those conditions. However, driving is only one part of the hobby. Living in it is another. Cost is yet another. One compromises and balances as they like.
I think the 8V71 would be just fine. When it is all said and done, mountain driving is such a small percentage of the overall miles. Just plan accordingly and enjoy the ride up!
I bought a 1977 eagle with a DD8V71N with plans of upgrading to a 4 stroke cummins in the future but have changed my mind. The 8V71N is no hot rod by any means. However the more I researched it the more I love the old green leaker for a few reasons
1) No electronics KISS (keep it simple stupid)
2) No Turbo one less thing to put me on the side of the road
3) Reliability
4) All the cutting and changes to convert to a cummins
From what I can gather from everyone I talk to and my truck driving experience 30 years ago the 8V71 runs great on the flats and crawls up the hills however if you drive it right and do the proper maintaince it is very reliable
Been running an 871 in our mc9 for 10 years with no major problems. Ran it from florida to Cheyenne, Wyoming but went slow up hill. Was also glad A friend told me to add misters to the radiators. Long graduall inclines slow down rpms and heating up a bit. If I ever get a differant bus it will have a 4 stroke engine for sure. Marc