Has anyone done a restart with empty fuel lines. My chem hose should be in this week and I will get the engine back together. I thought about taking a syringe and filling the lines with fuel as best I could. Any suggestions would be great.
Wayne,
I think you are asking if you will lose prime, if you start without fuel in your lines. Am I at all close? If so, I imagine that the answer to your question is yes. You will have trouble (but I am NO 2 stroke yoda like Clifford is! Keep that in mind).
I pulled up a thread on priming, for another fellow (over on the MCI board http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php (http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php) ), but I figured I would drop it over here too. http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20794.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20794.0)
HTH
John
That is exaclty what I needed to see. I am replacing all the fuel lines on the engine. The garden sprayer is genius!!! I was going to use vacuum to draw fluid when all the while I have a sprayer sitting ont he top shelf in the barn. Like my father used to say "Son keep it simple and stupid, you're halfway there anyway". ;D
I know once she hits it is all down hill. But getting her to hit can be a trick.
You might also check out this post from our forums:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20794.msg227070#msg227070 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=20794.msg227070#msg227070)
Thank you Mex. I am on it. Now if I get the new chemical hose in the mail today I will be off to the races. I for the life of me cannot figure out why I didn't pay the overnight rate. Saving $30 in overnight rates cost me $150 in fuel and $62 for a hotel. Come on UPS!!!
I watched Don Fairchild prime up my engine after replacing the crossover fuel line. He used an electric fuel pump AFTER the engine fuel pump (so not to blow out the seals on the engine fuel pump). Then he disconnected each section of fuel line and filled the fuel line by hand that was before the engine fuel pump. Granted he had to do this about 5 times, but at least the engine fuel pump was still intact. Takes patience and time, but once done, engine runs. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, are you saying that the electric pump pulled fuel through the engine pump to fill the filters, etc, or that the electric pump was used to fill the main filter, the heads and the discharge line?
I have to do a dry start of my engine soon - I have installed an low pressure electric pump in the main fuel line prior to the strainer filter. It is basically in parallel to the fuel line shut-off valve. My idea, since the fuel system will be completely dry, is to use the pump to pull fuel out of the tank and fill the strainer (top off actually, I will fill it before I install it, with the input hose from the strainer to the fuel pump off so that I see fuel all the way up to the pump. Then I will switch connections around and use the pump to fill the heads and the discharge hose back to the tank pumping through the main filter but not through the engine pump. Two steps in other works, and prefilling everything. The final step will be to reconnect and crank the engine with the fuel off lever on the governor so that the engine pump can pull fuel in and gain fuel pressure with the electric pump (which is only an 8 psi pump) pushing fuel to the engine pump. I can't see why this won't work just fine.
Your thoughts?
DD sold a priming kit for years they are no longer sold but are easy to build they had a quick disconnect on the secondary filter pumped fuel from a can let run for 2 minutes fire it up all there was to it the fuel not used went back to the tank.
You are not going to hurt the DD fuel pump a 65 lb pump with priming with a electric pump now 100lbs of air and fuel will do harm.
You guys make this priming harder than it needs to be IMO it really easy to do
good luck
Maybe I should put that set up on film, my Electric pump has been flawless for 2+ years thus far with no worries, thanks Clifford! ;) When I first brought our bird home, lost a fuel pump in Amarillo due to a collapsed supply line, I mean the drive shaft was sheared due to over heating ??? I had all my tools, along with a new Pump, but no way to get primed back up, lets just say I don't ever want to have to call S&S or WW to ever have to assist with priming the engine... ever again, and now I won't. ;D All the best!
Why could you not disconnect the fuel line as close to the rail as possible, stick an air hose in the neck of the fuel tank (sealed with a rag) and push the fuel thru with just enough pressure to push it, but not enough to hurt the fuel pump? When the fuel comes out at the engine, the whole system would be full at that point. Am I missing something?
Mike
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2011, 08:50:04 AM
You guys make this priming harder than it needs to be IMO it really easy to do
good luck
I thought this was all handled. The garden sprayer idea is genius but I thought it found application on "other people's rigs" only. Ours would use Clifford's suggestion of the NAPA electric fuel pump AT THE TANK. That would be the electric pump with the built in check valve AND that free flowed when turned OFF. That allowed bleeding up to the input of the fuel pump by cracking the inlet fitting on the engine pump. As I recall, that would allow filling the fuel filters "in place" without touching fuel. $30(?) for the pump plus a toggle switch. Problem solved forever.....I thought.
Question: Will that low pressure pump push the fuel through the engine pump and out the "spill' line and back to the tank? Are different make pumps....well different....in that regard? Can a piece of flex hose be put together that would "jumper" around the engine pump so fuel would be pushed thru the engine fuel lines and out the spill?
I would still fab and carry a garden sprayer and carry it for those "other guys". Neither of the "cheapo" low pressure pumps I installed 20 years ago has failed and I only accumulated 20 plus K miles in that time....but still. I carry two spare pumps and a fist full of filters. One of my spares is configured so I can empty a tank or transfer from one tank to the other. That pump has piushed about a hundred gallons and I think I am still within the "useful" life window.
But really, What about pushing fuel past the engine pump. And, if I got fuel that far wouldn't the engine pump charge all the engine lines with fuel? I thought the lost prime problem" was associated with the engine pump not being able to suck the fuel thru empty filters or pull the fuel from the tank.
John, Our set up is simply installed inline right before the primary filter.
here's our set up
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2FDSC02884.jpg&hash=c0a0f032fd8e20c569ee03da0496b2f14c9c45b2)
LOL, Van. Won't work. Sorry, pal.
You wanna know why? Too simple. Too easy. And it takes the mystery out of priming. Nice try ;D
You wanna know the funniest thing? ;D to show how well it works, I mistakenly put a 24V pump in it :o :o( just realized it moments ago when I took the picture :-[)and it works well! Now I gotta go wring the salesmans neck, and get a 12v one before someone says that the 24V will never work on my bus :P ;D ;D
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F030-1.jpg&hash=62703adeaac628bfd2c0719895352f176ea8f462)
I like the pump sprayer idea, becuase I have one sitting there doing nothing. The reason I asked the original question is I didn't know if I could prime while the lines were still disconected from the second filter. I didn't know if I could push fuel through the pump and the racks. Once I geet fuel to the engine it will go. I have primed before but with WVO on the WVO side only. If there is air in the lines it shutters for a second and then purrs.
I have the exact same pump that I was going to build a complicated parallel system for. Your pump is in-line - does it run all the time or just when priming? Does your DD mechanical pump draw through it with no problems, or have you done away with the DD pump?
Brian
My bud did his with a T before the pump and after the pump which essentially created a cirle in the line. He has the pump on one side of the circle and a valve on the other. when he wants to prime he closes the valve and starts the pump. When it is ready he opens the valve and turns off the pump.
Van's setup does not affect the DD pump you can make a priming system as simple as you want or as complected as you wish most of those pumps are flow through.
I have use the one pump no valves for the past 20 years without a problem I just used it to prime with and turn it off,I don't recommend using the little filter in line fwiw I never fill the filters I turn the pump on for 4 or 5 minutes hit the starter button off you go lol
good luck
Brian, I still have the DD pump (new) which I replaced once I finally got our bus home, But did as Clifford suggested, I usually leave it off, but have on the rare occasion left it on by mistake with no ill effects in performance. Please every one, make no mistake, not my wish to ever bend anyones arm to do it a certain way... just my way! ;D
It works and it is simple Van there are others that use the same they just don't post because they are told it won't work ;D ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
It works and it is simple Van there are others that use the same they just don't post because they are told it won't work ;D ;D
Btw, Clifford. Just for the record, I was joking when I told Van that it wouldn't work. That was very much tongue in cheek. I really like that idea, and would do it to ours, if I needed too. We have the factory installed priming pump on there, now, that we use.
John
I knew you were joking John lol
good luck
I have the garden sprayer setup just for an emergency. An inline pump seems like a good way to go if it has enough flow-thru. I once did it to a motorhome, but the pump did not have decent flow-thru, so I had to rig a bypass for it. My last bus had an electric pump at the fuel tank that was on full time. I don't even remember if there was a mechanical fuel pump at the engine.
Hey Van if they don't want the 24V pump for exchange an ya get "stuck" with it. You can throw it my way! LOL I'm building a utility trailer set up with a fuel tank and 24 battery system so when I do service calls I can fuel/jump straight from the trailer still gathering bits and pieces.
;D BK ;D
Van and/or Clifford-- what pump did you use?
Lin, here's the pix I took this morning
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F030-1.jpg&hash=62703adeaac628bfd2c0719895352f176ea8f462)
I got it thru CarQuest here in B.C.
Bk,I'll let ya know, I haven't gotten back to the parts counter yet to see if they have the 12V version yet, but if they do, you are more than welcome to this one ;). Oh there is a set of #'s on the flip side of the pump I'll try and get posted, so others interested can research them ;)
I have three of the pumps used by the mysterious Van and Clifford - two 24 volt and one 12 volt models. they are available here at Princess Auto - http://www.princessauto.com/all-seasons/farm/transfer-pumps/12vdc/8270100-24v-diesel-fuel-pump (http://www.princessauto.com/all-seasons/farm/transfer-pumps/12vdc/8270100-24v-diesel-fuel-pump)
so you can see what it looks like. I will experiment to see if it can be left in line with the DD pump as Clifford and Van's can but it sure looks the same from the outside.
Brian
I use the AirTex diesel pump forgot the exact number but think it is E 3073 or there about cost under 50 bucks most places ,fwiw Bosch makes a inline that will run the engine plenty of fuel supply at 70 psi I carried one for years waiting for the DD pump to fail never happen lol
good luck
That sure looks the same Brian, although they don't give any other specs, they are most likely manufactured by the same folks. here are the numbers on the flip side of my pump.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F029-1.jpg&hash=1134d472c1b568b72ba5ac8b4e1e6186d71fffef)
I'll go to the shop in the AM and see if there are cross refrence digits for it.
All I have ever done is fill both filters and crank. Fill again if necessary with a little funnel through a little hole in the top of the filters.
When starting after an overhaul, fill the oil cavity for the turbo, crank for a minute, then open the governor and let er start.
JC
I always liked the pump just for the convenience purposes carrying a gal of fuel or trying to siphon from the tank for enough to fill the new filters on the road wasn't my gig or using ATF to try and prime one,
I've never used the sprayer method should work ok,but it is sure nice just to flip a switch at night
good luck
I hate the pump type, I might be swayed if the sprayer had an electric pump on it ( got a bad back ;D)instead ;).
It's something to put on the list since I have the sprayer setup for now. The E3073 seems to be a replacement used for Caddy, Chevy, and Olds. E8131, as Van's is, is also an Airtex number with specs similar to the one Brian posted. Here's a chart of Airtex pump specs. It would seem that the best way to do this would be to install it near the tank to have a backup for the fuel line air leak scenario. Thanks
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xbkrDNOb4PMJ:www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0108-01_ATX.pdf+airtex+e8131&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi9LwqNFoMX7AAe9KxyDZL1AQGJyC9ibyoVN1bnOZ_Gt5cRnuUKk6KjazNxggAgMBRUeRIeeFsZuk84zoi9BgasmtUDV4MQnsrpjE3_uzcYgpJ-jVyqTY_LXAoGRDadCaOxUoio&sig=AHIEtbRdlrpjjfmofanzslYiSGl6hoVtwQ (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xbkrDNOb4PMJ:www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0108-01_ATX.pdf+airtex+e8131&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi9LwqNFoMX7AAe9KxyDZL1AQGJyC9ibyoVN1bnOZ_Gt5cRnuUKk6KjazNxggAgMBRUeRIeeFsZuk84zoi9BgasmtUDV4MQnsrpjE3_uzcYgpJ-jVyqTY_LXAoGRDadCaOxUoio&sig=AHIEtbRdlrpjjfmofanzslYiSGl6hoVtwQ)
I do agree that an inline electric pump would be nicer than having to fill filters in the middle of the night. One of these days, I will get one and install it.
JC
I have two pumps, as mentioned. Reason - I lost the first one in my shop. When I bought the second one, I took it out and put it on a handy shelf. On top of the first one that I lost. I had forgotten that it was in a handy white box to make it easy to put on a shelf and store for later... Now I have two. I installed, or started to install, one today. I said - "Why do I only have one pump, I know I have two". Two hours later I found the first pump, right where it started, on the shelf. Sometimes I think I am a sad, sad man. But, on the other hand, I have a spare pump. If I can ever find it again.
This is all, sadly, true.
Brian
Brian, is that the pump from Princess Auto? If so, do you install it inline with the fuel flowing trough it all the time? Or do you make a bypass with a valve? Post a picture when it is done if you can. Thanks.
JC
Van and Clifford say installing it in line works fine. I am going to go ahead with my parallel system, since I already bought all the fittings and hooked it up that way, but it will be easy to test in-line vs not when it's done and the engine is running.
It is the Princess Auto pump. I have two of the 24 volt pumps and one 12 volt one that I use for various things about the shop. I will bet dollars to donuts that the only difference between the two is the label and the output fittings - the 12 volt develops 5 - 9 psi and the 24 volt one develops 10 - 14 psi, exactly what you would expect from the same pump with twice the voltage. The 12 volt one has 1/8 npt fittings and the 24 volt one has 1/4 npt fittings.
The writing that is glared out says "UL Listed 6F96 AU2635" on both pumps.
Brian
Brian, did they come with an inline filter also? Just curious, the photo of mine that I posted earlier is not that clear, but do see the identical label on yours. ;)
Van
They come in 1/8,1/4 and 3/8 fittings I buy the the 3/8 but a 1/4 will work
good luck
No inline filter unless it's hidden behind the fittings somewhere.
I do see a problem with how I have plumbed mine at this stage, though. I put it in parallel with the main fuel shutoff tap going into the strainer filter. Since it obviously is a flow through pump (you can blow through it easily) if I shut my tap off the DD pump will just pull through the electric pump. I shall now completely disassemble the whole mess that I built yesterday, and go buy yet more fittings. Oh well, I feel like Brian Belfert is rubbing off on me. ;)
Quote from: bevans6 on August 17, 2011, 07:36:04 AM. . . I will bet dollars to donuts that the only difference between the two is the label and the output fittings - the 12 volt develops 5 - 9 psi and the 24 volt one develops 10 - 14 psi, exactly what you would expect from the same pump with twice the voltage.
Bevans6, I don't think the 12v and 24v pumps are the same. I've tried it, and at least with my trial I found that the 12v pumps would run noticeably faster and hotter on 24v and were short lived that way. Although they'd probably last forever if used just as priming pumps.
Obviously a lot of Bus Nuts have had proven success with the in-line electric pumps.
But... I'm not so sure that every pump is up to the task of delivering adequete volume for all applications. It's something that should be checked per installation. For example, some engines need a lot of fuel flow, almost a gallon per minute, and in extreme cold it could be difficult for the little pumps to deliver, or to pass through, the needed volume.
Anyway, here's my favorite bypass plumbing technique:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.busconversions.com%2Fbbs%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D21134.0%3Battach%3D19657%3Bimage&hash=2df64639ac4feed02db976db4f4717c40476b29d)
The yellow arrows show normal flow and the white arrows show primer flow.
I'm sure the 24 volt pump is basically the same model that's posted throughout this thread. I'll bet this one is ten years old now. It seems like they're purchased under the Master brand name, I'll try to post a part number in a day or two.
Ted
I did a search on the UL listing number and came up with Airtex as the actual manufacturer of the pump. It's rated at 35 gallons per hour. How many gallons per hour does a 8V-71 use? I get around 12 GPH at 60 mph maximum, I think. But that ignores the return flow for cooling.
http://www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0108-01_ATX.pdf (http://www.airtexproducts.com/TSB/TSB-0108-01_ATX.pdf)
http://www.showmetheparts.com/airtex/# (http://www.showmetheparts.com/airtex/#)
http://www.airtexproducts.com/airtexhome.html (http://www.airtexproducts.com/airtexhome.html)
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on August 18, 2011, 05:02:09 AM. . . How many gallons per hour does a 8V-71 use? . . .
I never heard of reverse-engineering using the UL number - that's a good trick.
I think the V's flow roughly between .5 and 1 gpm, depending on speed and whether the engine is equipped with the standard pump or high-volume pump.
But... just an electric pump's rating probably doesn't answer the flow question, because, when needed, the electrics will probably allows more "pull through" than they can push, so at most common temperatures and flow rates starving is probably not likely to be an issue. I would think that a pressure gauge plumbed in on the gear-pump's suction side would tell a lot what's going on with a particular installation.
Ted
That's a good idea with the pressure gauge. I think the .5 - 1 gpm is very close, that is what I had heard as well. I expect I will just put the pump in line and leave it off when it isn't priming, but I had heard of people running it in place of the mechanical pump. I guess it would work - it's kind of low pressure compared to stock, and low flow - but the injectors create the real pressure when they inject, all the pump does is keep a head of fuel to fill the injectors. And the flow is mostly for cooling purposes. I bet it would run and you wouldn't tell the difference, but it wouldn't be as right in operation somehow.
Brian
I started the electric pump thing because there are some engines in equipment -not Detroits- that have a lift pump that's a costly integral part of the injection pump and it's about impossible to keep 'em pumping and priming. These are "low volume fuel flow" engines and the electrics are a nice cure for the problem.
However, with cold weather starts you can tell that the little pumps are working hard. That may have as much to do with small lines as cold fuel.
Ted