From a faulty air cleaner.
I'll let Clifford explain. And no, it's not mine! ;)
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Dusted! Mine looked similar inside the air box, not nearly as bad. Mine had oil bath air cleaners, completely dry, for probably 30,000 miles.
Brian
That my friends is what you get with the lifetime 20% more air flow washable filters it was serviced 2 times in 26,000 miles a 200 dollar filter to save 140 bucks for the price of a ECO system once a year, cost him a engine he paid 17,000 out of frame to have rebuilt now it is back to square one sad.
Moral of the story don't cut corners when it come to the air filtration on a engine it will cost you big bucks
Thanks for posting Paul when the topic comes up again they can look at the photos as they say a picture is wroth a 1000 words
good luck
Just curious, what were the indications from the engine before tear down at this point of failure? high oil consumption? lots of smoke? low compression? the damage is obvious in the pics, just wondering what the performance was like at this stage in the game.
Low compression, plenty of smoke and miss firing at idle
good luck
You mean we're supposed to have and air filter too?
I've never seen the inside of an 8V71. Out of curiosity, what should the inside look like?
The cylinder sleeves are the bits with the oval holes in them. They should be a finely machined, smooth, shiny cast iron surface, like the face of a cylinder head. What you see is grit and dust emulsified in oil, fuel, water from condensation, into a fine gritty paste and built up on all surfaces. The bottom of the air box is rough cast iron, it should simply look clean and shiny/wet. the plug with the two holes in it has some of the grit wiped off with someones finger. It should be clean and look like machined steel.
Brian
If you have one of those foam filters that are washable and need oiled.......throw that away. I used those things for many years on desert bikes and they were unsurpassed at stopping sand and dust and talcum. I am without a clue as to why the current crop of those filters is worthless....BUT THEY ARE. My recent experience is most horrible but I haven't lost an engine. I am spent on talking about this and wish none further. LOOK AT THE PICS!
Thank you Paul and Clifford,
John
I used to have a K & N filter on one of my cars but got rid of it. Independent tests I had read confirmed that they did allow better air flow than other filters. However, they allowed better dirt flow too.
Lin, I found this funny today at Auto/Zone I was buying a air filter for the pickup and this young man did his sell pitch telling me a K&N would last me a life time even dirty he told me they would flow more air than a clean paper filter.
I just looked at him smiled and said I wonder why he just stood there with the I don't know look,15 bucks for a little kerosene in a bottle with some colored oil make no sense to me my filter cost 9 bucks lol
good luck
Just curious what the Bus guys think of the original oil bath type air filters. My understanding is they work very well if maintained properly.
According to DD the paper filter are better than a oil bath,guess it depends on what you like but me I trash the oil bath and tell other to do the same JMW they don't do that great of a job
good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on August 04, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
The cylinder sleeves are the bits with the oval holes in them. They should be a finely machined, smooth, shiny cast iron surface, like the face of a cylinder head. What you see is grit and dust emulsified in oil, fuel, water from condensation, into a fine gritty paste and built up on all surfaces. The bottom of the air box is rough cast iron, it should simply look clean and shiny/wet. the plug with the two holes in it has some of the grit wiped off with someones finger. It should be clean and look like machined steel.
Brian
The bottom of my airbox is no-where near clean and shiny. I didn't see evidence of sand infiltration, but I do believe my blower is leaking oil. The screws were grimy, and the entire airbox was oily, with a little pooling on top. Unfortunately I had to put the blower back on without fixing it. I had taken it off to repair some bad leaks under and behind it. Just didn't have the money or the time right now. We are back on the road Monday and won't have any time off for maintenance/repairs until mid October. BTW, you don't even want to know what I found sitting in the bottom of the airbox. SCARY.
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 04, 2011, 09:16:37 PM
BTW, you don't even want to know what I found sitting in the bottom of the airbox. SCARY.
Yeah we do.
Quote from: artvonne on August 04, 2011, 09:23:27 PM
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 04, 2011, 09:16:37 PM
BTW, you don't even want to know what I found sitting in the bottom of the airbox. SCARY.
Yeah we do.
Yeah, you know as soon as I posted that, I thought "now that was stupid. Just hang it out there, dummy"
So here it is. When I removed the blower, I found sitting right in the middle of the bottom of the airbox a small piece of metal, maybe about 1/4 x 3/8 inch in size. One of the liners had a piece missing from in between the ports that seemed about the right size and configuration. The piston in that hole had no sign of trouble though, and there was no sign of trauma anywhere else that I could see either. Judging from the dirty oil on the airbox, that piece had sat there for quite some time without moving. No telling how long it's been in there. Bus just blows a puff of smoke when cold, nothing out of the ordinary.
To my understanding, the oil bath filters are efficient for both air flow and filtration at increased rpm, but do not filter as well at idle.
I don't know Lin the DD literature I have shows the oil bath flow 6% less than paper and the oil bath is 95.3 % on filtration and the paper spec for DD are at 99.8 on filtration that is what I go buy
good luck
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 04, 2011, 09:32:18 PM
No telling how long it's been in there. Bus just blows a puff of smoke when cold, nothing out of the ordinary.
Some would freak out and want a complete teardown, solve the riddle...
After watching a few Bus engine out of town repair tales here, I concluded that I would make whatever effort I could to make it run and get as close to home as I could. I cant say I wouldnt want to know precisely where that chunk of metal came from, and a chunk from the liner would concern me, but if its chugging along and hasnt been protesting, who's to argue?? Just realise that it could lead to catostrophic and sudden failure, if you not entirely sure of the extent of damage or the cause.
What I have learned is that these engines are amazingly tough, and rather simple, albeit heavy. Even in the case of a complete cylinder failure, or dropped valve, its quite possible to Jerry Rig things enough to keep it thumpin down the road a ways. A blown bearing in the blower throwing chunks into the motor however, thats kind of a deal breaker.
I have a Donaldson air cleaner with 7" hose (up from 6" before turboing). After replacing the original air filter I put in a Baldwin "replacement" filter. It looked the same, but the foam gaskets were thicker, so it was almost impossible to button back up. It didn't last but a year, and just replaced it again with a Donaldson genuine replacement filter element. It fits perfectly and the air flows well again (no smoke on hard acceleration). Use the name brand air filter your air cleaner is made by for guaranteed fit.
Also-do not EVER blow out a paper air filter element and reuse it. The air will create micro holes in the element and let dirt in. Considering the air filter element is around $100.00 and you probably replace once every 2-4 years, how cheap is that? Always replace a dirty paper air filter element when it is ready-helpful to have a vacuum flow gauge that shows red when ready on the air filter can. Good Luck, TomC
I pulled this off wikipedia, kind of interesting and explains why they are still used.
"Oil bath air cleaners were very widely used in automotive and small engine applications until the widespread industry adoption of the paper filter in the early 1960s. Such cleaners are still used in off-road equipment where very high levels of dust are encountered, for oil bath air cleaners can sequester a great deal of dirt relative to their overall size without loss of filtration efficiency or airflow. However, the liquid oil makes cleaning and servicing such air cleaners messy and inconvenient, they must be relatively large to avoid excessive restriction at high airflow rates, and they tend to increase exhaust emissions of unburned hydrocarbons due to oil aspiration when used on spark-ignition engines".
Just for shiggles what is the average life of a paper filter on an Eagle, or better yet a 6v92? I know all conditions change the game but what is the regular scheduled time for changing>
You're supposed to use a manometer to measure the flow resistance to tell you when to change. Could be a week to 10 years...
Brian
I can't think of a single piece of heavy equipment that still uses an oil bath cleaner.....haven't seen one in years, in fact i can't recall that last time that i did see one. ;D
I see four of them sitting on the ground beside my bus every time I walk out to the shop! ;D Dang things are heavy too - I bet the complete stock air cleaner setup on my bus weighs north of 150 lbs.
Brian
You never see oil baths on equipment any longer and haven't in a long long time they all have turbo engines a oil bath is a no/no for turbo engines,Cat hasn't used a oil bath filter since early the 60's fwiw
Quote from: artvonne on August 04, 2011, 11:25:35 PM
I pulled this off wikipedia, kind of interesting and explains why they are still used.
"Oil bath air cleaners were very widely used in automotive and small engine applications until the widespread industry adoption of the paper filter in the early 1960s. Such cleaners are still used in off-road equipment where very high levels of dust are encountered, for oil bath air cleaners can sequester a great deal of dirt relative to their overall size without loss of filtration efficiency or airflow. However, the liquid oil makes cleaning and servicing such air cleaners messy and inconvenient, they must be relatively large to avoid excessive restriction at high airflow rates, and they tend to increase exhaust emissions of unburned hydrocarbons due to oil aspiration when used on spark-ignition engines".
Don't ya love it when Aldous Huxley proves to be correct one more time? "Send me a man who reads".
Look, I might be missing something, Lord knows that happens often enuf, but, the oil bath keeps coming up the winner every which way I turn this comparison.
Pro:
The OB is cheaper in the long run if filter elements cost a hundred bucks.
The oil bath has no replacement materials except the oil being replaced. Any light weight oil will do....used 20wt or ATF...doesn't matter. Motor Earl is motor Earl in this case. Filters cost 100 to 125 dollars per change. How many changes do you have to make before you hit the break even point of a OB? After that it is all savings. And those savings don't end.
Fuel savings will be significant over the life of the engine.
The dry filter element traps the dirt "in series" with the air flow. That is to say that the air charge must travel "past" the dirt to get into the engine. All those tiny air passages in the element get filled by dirt as time goes on. That's how the filter works. With the filling of those holes come resistance to flow and that adds up to loss of fuel efficiency. The OB stores the dirt it traps in the bottom of the oil bath reservoir where the charge air never goes. Instead, the air going into the engine "slides" over that "slick" oil surface on its way.... (little humor there). The OB works just like the day it was borne even when it is half full of muck and dirt and twigs and talc. You keep the oil level where it should be and it works like nothing has happened even after years of deferred maint abuse. Obviously the thing can't work after the dirt gets to the oil fill line but till then all is hunky dory.
OB has more air resistance to air flow than a dry element.
I'll bet that the brand and expense of that element has a lot to do with that number. Still, even without numbers, I would say that that must be true. Here's the rub. Like I said, the resistance to air flow is going up from the time it is put into use, regarding the dry element. That should be obviously true to everyone. The resistance number for the OB must be a point that the dry element passes on it way to needing replaced. My unsupported argument is that the losses associated with the OB being less efficient at the outset are overcome by the excessive losses of the DE during its final phase of use.
Remember all the discussion about bends and length of run associated with intake air flow resistance? Who could forget? Well, that OB has a 180 degree turn in the air flow path built into it as a operating principle. That makes a lot of resistance but the DE is restrictive by its nature, as well.
OB is more labor intensive and costly than a DE
The DE needs to be replaced on a "time run" and "conditions" basis. The OB needs "checked" on the same basis. Actual servicing intervals are much much less frequent. Operating in Southern California I got 1/8 inch of "clay" out of my OB filter after one year and 20K miles. I didn't clean it again for 4 years but I checked it every 6 months....religiously. Elements were only a few bucks back then.
CON: The OB works on the centrifugal forces associated with an air stream abruptly changing direction. The 180 degree direction change in the bottom of the filter "flings" the dirt particles "at" the surface of the oil, where it sticks and sinks. Remaining air flow is "clean". The finer and lighter the dirt particles the faster the air must be traveling to be thrown into the oil. "Smoke" would not likely be trapped....also doesn't do much damage due to abrasion. BUT there is a trade off: the faster you make the air flow the better the filtering but the greater the air resistance and subsequent negative impact on economy. The OB in autom otive use is a trade off. To filter the air must travel fast and the design is to get acceptable filtering at the most used air velocity thru-put. That would be cruise and the desine would be pecular to the engine displacement. Move the RPM up to MAX and the OB is sucking harder and not as free flowing. At idle the velocity of the air at the turn isn't great enuf to allow the best filtering. Turns out, as my guess, there is more than one reason for DD being adament about not letting the engine "idle" for very long at all. Air filtering, it seems, on those "olde timey" 2 strokes got poor at idle. Sand and grit will not make the velocity turn regardless and less of that can be moved at idle but the talc is always there.
Here's the main point: They still make the oil bath filter. There is a market for them. I am told that all rock quarry equip is equipped with the OB filtration and that the rock crusher running at the bottom of the pit is most certainly OB equipped. That comes from a D mechanic that worked in more than one quarry. Farm equip, still comes with OB filters in some cases and here again....I been told. My call to Caterpillar got me the following: They are no longer standard equip on OTR truck engines. Until recently they were an option. That rep said he knew that 3408 engines for trucks came with the option of a OB filter. His "guess" was that heavy equip still used them but where DE filters used to be the option the OB was now the option. Times change and not always for the better....mostly, but not always.
Today, the mfr gets a profit on DE replacement parts. Not everyone sold but the dealers still install their house brands and, while they are made by suppliers, they are usually way more expensive. They get not a nickel for OB after it leaves the factory. True, they get more to service the OB but most service is not done at the dealer. Lots of crossed motives and reasons of profit in this mix.
I would choose the OB if it were an option. I would certainly install a "Filter Minder" on every DE equipped engine....as I have done. And I would change no filter before it's time nor run it beyond it time.
John
Come on Ed,, confess,, you've allways wanted to be an instructor haven't you??>>>D
I cant say I would choose an OB filter over a paper element, but I sure aint gonna tear it all out just to start buying paper elements.
Regardless of things stated, I believe the move away from OB air cleaners had more to do with convienence and parts sales than anything particularly scientific, as well as a move away from something seen as antiquated. Its interesting that DD, who until the 1990's was owned by GM, would claim the paper element was a better and higher flow filter over an OB filter. Yet every Bus GM built, from the 1930's all the way into the 1980's, had OB air filters rather than paper elements.
They arent bad filters, just messy. And they are much better than either a dirty paper filter, or a high flow filter like K&N.
If you want to pay shipping and packing, I'll send you the oil bath filter from my MCI gratis... it has four elements, weighs around 150 lbs and is a lump roughly 16" tall by 20" wide and 24" long... ;)
I worked in 4 rock quarries at one time or another over the last 30 years and none of them had anything with an OB on them.
That is not really a fact about GM buses used only oil bath filters you see the 4905A with both
JohnEd I think someone is pulling your leg about oil baths on 3408 I owned 2 back in the 80's those engines have been gone for awhile now.
Equipment is about the only diesel engine you will find around a Quarry except the generator those thing have been electric since the light bulb.
Tell us what farm equipment manufacturers use the oil bath I never heard that one before
Get your hands dirty and disassemble a 2 stroke with a oil bath filter and one with a good paper huge difference between the 2
The old oil baths are a thing of the past look at the difference in the life span of a engine now with paper filters.
We all have opinions but oil baths are junk and expensive to service , my service guy could pop a new filter in a piece of equipment in 5 mins and be gone try that with a old oil bath.
In todays money with the cost of labor and down time on a piece of equipment it would be around 400 bucks but they have their place and that is on the water where you have no dust lol
good luck
Derrick, Be carefull That's about the same size peaces that came out of my blower that just took out my motor in the 4106 I just got. Would not want you to go through what I did. I would get it checked. Good Luck and safe travels.
Kevin
Quote from: Kevinmc5 on August 05, 2011, 03:06:35 PM
Derrick, Be carefull That's about the same size peaces that came out of my blower that just took out my motor in the 4106 I just got. Would not want you to go through what I did. I would get it checked. Good Luck and safe travels.
Kevin
No, I definitely don't need that. I did a visual inspection of the blower and did not see any problems, and the screws were not loose and no excessive end play or side to side play or anything like that. I do think the piece came from the sleeve, but couldn't say for sure.When I get down to Clifford's in a few months I plan on having him take a look at the blower to see if it is R&R time. The piece was not aluminum, and it was not bearing material either. It was definitely some type of casting material.
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on August 05, 2011, 01:57:11 PM
I worked in 4 rock quarries at one time or another over the last 30 years and none of them had anything with an OB on them.
Well you are two quarries up on me and I am tapped out. I never set foot in one nor have I turned a wrench on a D other than a Ford 7.?
I was clear when I pointed out that it wasn't my lie.....I was just repeating it. I don't think I proved they are used nor do I think you proved that they are not. I just mean that as a fact....friendly like...observation. :)
John
Probably acorns... ;D
Not trying to come down on you John, just telling what i have seen. ;D
Okay Clifford, you have me somewhat convinced a paper filter is better. Brian, how hard was it to remove the original air box? Is there room in there for a large enough element?
Very interesting discussion for sure.
My only experience with an oilbath air filter was my old 1963 190D four-door Mercedes Benz sedan, similar to the one in this picture. And I sure hated the cleaning of that filter!
removing the original oil bath airbox on my MCI was easy, except that it's very heavy. I did it when my engine was out so I had extremely easy access. To start, you remove the tubes to the compressor and the air horn on top of the blower, then you remove four 5/16" screws, two across the front flange, two at the rear flange, that hold the whole assembly up to the roof of the engine bay, then you get out from under it as it crashed down on your head. That last bit is the hardest part...
It leaves a very large space that could hold a large Donaldson type air filter. Just above the side door to the compartment is an access to the stock air intake from in front of the radiator. You could re-use that, or work out some other cool air intake system.
Brian
Thanks Brian, Ill take a look at it.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 05, 2011, 02:17:59 PM
That is not really a fact about GM buses used only oil bath filters you see the 4905A with both
I rarely say things like "it never happened". I know GM used the OB into the 70's only because i have peered into the engine bay and seen them. Exact year.....dunno. Not that important to me. I'll let you split those hairs about what year they stopped.LOL. I think you make my point.
JohnEd I think someone is pulling your leg about oil baths on 3408 I owned 2 back in the 80's those engines have been gone for awhile now.
Speaking of leg pulling, I'll let you argue the point with the service manager at Peterson Cat in Eugene. I don't have a dog in the fight. LOL
Equipment is about the only diesel engine you will find around a Quarry except the generator those thing have been electric since the light bulb.
That isn't clear. Electric has always been more reliable and efficient for fixed equip. On the other hand, that "tricity" comes from on-site D generators if the grid won't reach. All the rolling stock is D powered and it works in a dusty environment.
Tell us what farm equipment manufacturers use the oil bath I never heard that one before.
There are a couple reasons to say "I never heard of that". One is egotistical where you infer that if you ain't heard it it ain't true. May not apply here or to you Cilfford. It took me all of 4 minutes to prove you wrong to my satisfaction. 4 minutes. Dumb luck, I guess. First call wa sot our local farm equip sales and service and I asked what equip he serviced used OB air filters. He answered that all the Deutz powered "bailers" were equipped with oil bath air filters. Sorry Clifford. I didn't "get ya on that....you got you" Well now you heard about it from the mouth of the local FarmAll dealer. That same service rep also said they had had a NEW as in Brand New tractor in for pre delivery service and it was equipped with an OB filter. That mech was off on Friday and the rest of the crew didn't remember the Mfr. and I figured I had stretched them far enough on a scavenger hunt.
I called the FarmAll out in the Columbia Gorge...farm land. I got the salesman on hs cell cause the service manager said if he answered he would be happy to talk to a Eugenian. OK, he was pulling my leg and I caught on right quick, Clifford. I asked my OB question and what i heard was "All deutz two storke, air cooled, fixed engines come equipped with with OB filter. Can't even get them with paper." Duh, why? (guess who said that?) Well it seems that the 2 stroke Deutz is a favorite for remote electrical generators and pumps. Farmers aren't the only ones known for their mechanical skills or religious adherence to PM stuff. He went on to share that a D that runs rich will have a cooling problem and eventually burn up because of it. Air cooled engines are sensitive to over-heating problems. NOW....it seems that a dirty paper filter will be restrictive and take the engine to rich and destruction. He made the point that a unserviced OB was just as free flowing when dirty as clean. It tolerated abuse and didn't take the engine out. Whoa, said I, you sound like you sell those things you know so much about OB filters and all. Mind you I was talking to the Farm all salesman that also handles Deutz for central Or. I guess. I must have spoken to 6 people and each one treated me better than the last....what a pleasant journey of discovery.
Not to be discouraged, I went on ebay and searched for used Deutz D engines. i found some that I am fairly certain had OB filters hanging on their sides. One is a 2001 made 36KW genney with a nice compact OB oil filter hanging on the front and the seller comments that the gen us designed to run at remote locations for extended periods unattended. Can't prove it by me but I am starting to see a pattern emerge. Dirty environment....OB. 2 stroke....OB air cooled engine....OB Remote unattended...OB.
Get your hands dirty and disassemble a 2 stroke with a oil bath filter and one with a good paper huge difference between the 2
I serviced my OB filter twice till i caught on that the thing was going to run forever and need little attention from me except the annual adding of a couple ounces of oil. I used to stick my "fanger" down into the oil to test how deep the crud was....then I put it together and spun on the wing nut and tightened the 10 MM bolt and had a beer to celebrate a fine days work.
The old oil baths are a thing of the past look at the difference in the life span of a engine now with paper filters.
Actually, I have wondered about exactly that. But, not the way you stated it. I had always heard that the DD 2 stroke was good for 350Kmiles easy but would go 500. Drank fuel and had cooling issues after 350K. That sounds familiar in some ways to some of the things I hear today. The other thing I hear is that the 8V92 is often shot at 150K miles. I see lots of buses advertised as having been rebuilt at 130 or 150 K miles. All these modern buses use DE filters and I ponder the connection....if there is any.
I know the 60 series and big Cummins go close to a million miles with DE, as does most everything.
The OB filters are a modern item still being sold and serviced. I found them alive and well in the farming and industrial sector. Thriving, actually, and enjoying a hugely positive reputation.
We all have opinions but oil baths are junk and expensive to service
There is a line of Chinese trucks, they look great on pics, and all seem to be cab-over. They are advertised as having oil bath air filters. The adds are worded Heavy Hauler model XXXX with standard OIL BATH AIR FILTER. Boy are they ever proud of that filter and from the way their adds are assembled I think they are talking to customers that feel the same way. With the weight and cost delta being what it is you could make a bundle consulting for those guys, Clifford. "Long live paper element filters". LOL, Buddy. Their intended market is one of the harshest on the planet....Goby desert, Australia Outback, Aisia, Siberia and south America.
, my service guy could pop a new filter in a piece of equipment in 5 mins and be gone try that with a old oil bath.
Took me less than that ti stick my finger in the oil resovoir and determine I didn't have a chore yey. Maybe 5 minutes....maybe......but way cheaper than the paper. Element,. that is cause I did use a piece of paper to wipe my "fanger". Paper has its place.
In todays money with the cost of labor and down time on a piece of equipment it would be around 400 bucks but they have their place and that is on the water where you have no dust lol
good luck
Thanks for the good wishes, Clifford and right back atcha LOL
Now I can cross the isle on this with a simple observation. The OB is closely designed to a specific air flow. The delta in air flow volumes has gone through the roof with the advent of the turbo. Even with the 8V71 the air filtration at idle was headed to the marginal performance area at idle. The turbo equipped engines gulp huge quantities of air at their highest operating RPM and the turbo manifold pressures seem to be on the rise since they were first offered. If they are designed to operate efficiently at the highest air thru-0put then the filtration will be marginal at idle. If you design for the middle then the filter will be starting to become restrictive at high output. Gens and pumps typically operate at one speed and then shut down so the OB seems optimum. I would like to see the design of the new Chinese trucks as their engines are quite large and turbo'd and they must have dealt effectively with the problem. Got any sources for info on that Clifford?
Insert Quote
Come on Ed,, confess,, you've allways wanted to be an instructor haven't you??>>>D
I taught in the Military...class room and OJT. HUGELY SATISFYING! I taught young men "to fish" if you follow.
I taught the repair crews in the overhaul depot. Productivity went up 20 fold and we put all the other depots around the world out of business and saved the Gummint/Navy many millions per year. That system is still being used and that was in 75. And yes, I do look the Paymaster in the eye when he gives me my check. Directly in the eye.
I taught on site operation and repair of Satellite Navigation Systems. I was never once in three years called back to a ship because they had a failure they couldn't clear or encountered situations where they couldn't operate the system. The average was one trouble call and visit by a rep in the first 14 days of an installation. After that, most needed a visit every 8 weeks. Was I proud of that? OMG yes. I wrote lesson plans for the operators class and for the techs. I left that training material with the ship so they could train their replacements. It was never promulgated to my peers though I submitted copies with my field reports after I discovered I was the only one doing these things. I completed an installation in 2.5 days and was allocated 14. My peers averaged 9 to 11 days. There were "trouble case ships" that always seemed to need help. The sailors were blamed by the Sand Crabs. My bosses would route me to those ships and I would spend a day training.....no more messages that read "it's broke and i don't have a clue". After that they marched proud and i got messages like "Send me module 1A3A15...ASAP".
Am I proud of my achievements and contribution? Intensely! And if you read this post carefully, you now know where the bear pooped in the Buckwheat. ??? ::) ;D
Be well and happy,
John
FOR CRISTS SAKE JOHN,, GIVE IT A BREAK!!>>>D
Need to look up air filters for Deutz John and see what you come up with that bs about all Deutz using oil bath I have never seen one using a oil bath,and who ever told you the Deutz was a 2 stroke engine is smoking some good stuff I heard they grow in Oregon lol
good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on August 07, 2011, 04:38:22 AM
removing the original oil bath airbox on my MCI was easy, except that it's very heavy. I did it when my engine was out so I had extremely easy access. To start, you remove the tubes to the compressor and the air horn on top of the blower, then you remove four 5/16" screws, two across the front flange, two at the rear flange, that hold the whole assembly up to the roof of the engine bay, then you get out from under it as it crashed down on your head. That last bit is the hardest part...
It leaves a very large space that could hold a large Donaldson type air filter. Just above the side door to the compartment is an access to the stock air intake from in front of the radiator. You could re-use that, or work out some other cool air intake system.
Brian
Brian, what did/are you doing for the new air box? I have been thinking about doing away with the oil bath system for some time now.
The last farm tractor I owned with an oil bath cleaner was a 70 John Deere. 720/730 series were the same but we're talking 1958-61 for the 30 series. I believe that the "New Generation" tractors introduced in 1961 (3010 for example) also used oil baths up until the late 60's or early 70's.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on August 08, 2011, 07:25:10 AM
The last farm tractor I owned with an oil bath cleaner was a 70 John Deere. 720/730 series were the same but we're talking 1958-61 for the 30 series. I believe that the "New Generation" tractors introduced in 1961 (3010 for example) also used oil baths up until the late 60's or early 70's.
Thanks Bob,
That's what I got from all the guys I spoke to ion the field. They are around and doing the great job they always did.
John
I did some poking around on my own. Looks like Ford was still using Oil Bath air cleaners on their tractors up into the late 80's, possibly early 90's. Overseas they are still being used and are quite popular, especially is desert environments. And perhaps, for economic reasons, If your clogging up a paper element every few days an oil bath type would rapidly pay for itself.
Everyone needs to chill, this isnt, or should not be a Chevy vs Ford argument. I think its great that DD has literature showing a paper filter out performs an oil bath. But Clifford, I have seen, with my own eyes, GM Buses from the 1980's with oilbath air cleaners. So GM was definetly speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
But I dont live in the desert, and I dont often drive dirt roads, as Buses often did decades ago. Ive had paper filters last years as long as you stay out of dirt. Whether one type is better or not is a moot point, and certainly not worth arguing about. Either one will work fine and your engine will last just as long if you do proper maintenance.
Yep and you won't find where GM installed a turbo engine but I found 10 with turbos that went to a outfit in New York all 4905's and 1 is setting in my shop and we have the paper work to back it up GM shipped the bus with a 8v71 turbo
And spending a few years over in that eastern desert anything that has a oil bath filter is also equipped with a pre cleaner you clean 3 or 4 times a day and will be a N/A engine.
When we built the soccer in Russia they furnished us with Russian built equipment even as crude as that stuff was it all had paper filters. I'll stick with manufactures on paper being better than a oil
good luck
I replaced the paper filter in my bus when I bought the bus in 2006. That was probably 25,000 miles ago and it appears to still be going strong. I do have a filter minder and it hasn't moved at all yet.
This is surprising to me as I drive 30 miles across a dry lake bed every year and the dust is out of this world. It probably helps that my air intake is 10 feet off the ground.
Quote from: belfert on August 08, 2011, 11:24:13 AMIt probably helps that my air intake is 10 feet off the ground.
Exactly. Don't some buses have their air intakes quite low to the ground, lower than Dinas' (and mine)? Maybe Dina allowed for their buses being used on dusty or dirt roads (which may be why they have better ground clearance than most US buses). Crown may also have assumed the same. I wonder if any newer buses designed for less-benign conditions still use OB air cleaners?
John
Some Eagle buses had a high mounted air intake the ones that were shipped to Egypt I know did but you see model 10's here with high mounted through the roof with a scoop air intakes,but Eagle stopped using the oil bath in the 60's
good luck
The real early Eagle 01's had two scoops over the back to the top of the bus. Wonder how they did in the rain. This is a '60 model. That's the first one I had ever seen.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi363.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo78%2FDreamscape_Eagle%2F2011-07-16_15-57-27_519.jpg&hash=0d3b9b57c10b73b4421d770b8d628825876a7244)
Quote from: artvonne on August 08, 2011, 11:11:44 AM
I did some poking around on my own. Looks like Ford was still using Oil Bath air cleaners on their tractors up into the late 80's, possibly early 90's. Overseas they are still being used and are quite popular, especially is desert environments. And perhaps, for economic reasons, If your clogging up a paper element every few days an oil bath type would rapidly pay for itself.
Everyone needs to chill, this isn't, or should not be a Chevy vs Ford argument. I think its great that DD has literature showing a paper filter out performs an oil bath. But Clifford, I have seen, with my own eyes, GM Buses from the 1980's with oil bath air cleaners. So GM was definitely speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
But I don't live in the desert, and I don't often drive dirt roads, as Buses often did decades ago. Ive had paper filters last years as long as you stay out of dirt. Whether one type is better or not is a moot point, and certainly not worth arguing about. Either one will work fine and your engine will last just as long if you do proper maintenance.
Thank you for your validating info and concern over peace in the family, Art. I can't take all that Clifford says as gospel. I view this as a journey of discovery as I am learning more and more that validates what, for me, started out as a "hunch". I still got it.
In banking we have what is called "The Acid Test". See http://www.allbusiness.com/glossaries/acid-test-ratio/4943167-1.html (http://www.allbusiness.com/glossaries/acid-test-ratio/4943167-1.html) It cuts the wheat from the chaff in a bank loan application. Then there is the Acid Test (AT) for people having any possible streak of likability: Did Will Rogers ever meet this man? And now we have the AT of "validity": Has Clifford ever heard of this?LOL Now that ain't sarcasm , but, straight up humor. Sarcasm is tricky and convoluted and subtle like.
Gm speaks out of both sides of its mouth often and to varying degrees. Goes with being a large corp. You know when a drunk is lying by watching his/her lips.....if they are moving then the drunk is lying. If that offends any then they really should hide that fact. We don't want to take this much further as Clifford's last com said that Dietz didn't exist. How serious can he be? He is just jerking the collective chain of the board. OB will shorten the life of a D engine?....antique?.....and now we are building soccer stadiums in Russia. Truly gifted! I admire creativity as much, possibly more, than the next man. My hat is off.
Don't fall for that "turbo'd 4905 gambit as it will go "nowhere" and is intended to.
Thank you sincerely for your concern...again. Paul. In this medium I come across as harsh or angry sometimes. Neither is valid but it is my doing entirely.
Still luv ya Clifford...specially when you stretch,
Your admiring friend(seriously)
John
Yep JohnEd and your tax dollars paid for that soccer stadium 10,000,000 big ones Flintco from Tulsa was the general and I did the earthwork If you ever get to Moscow look at the brass plaque and you will see me lol been to Moscow 5 times in one year while we were building not a place I care for myself,if you would like the address I can give to so you can Goggle like you do everything else and post me a photo of a 2 stroke Deutz and I'll stop in Eugene and buy you a steak
good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on August 05, 2011, 01:27:20 PM
If you want to pay shipping and packing, I'll send you the oil bath filter from my MCI gratis... it has four elements, weighs around 150 lbs and is a lump roughly 16" tall by 20" wide and 24" long... ;)
Brian,
What engine did the OB filter you have come off of? Is it a single pass or are there parallel filters? Is a pic too much trouble to feed my curiosity?
Thank you,
John
Politics and philosophy aside...
In my opinion, the greatest single improvement to extended engine life has been the dry element filter system. A system with a pre-cleaner, primary element, and secondary element, has to be ten times more effective than oil bath.
Besides the haphazard way an oil bath hopes to drop impurities out, most have a poorly sealed bowl and/or connections with a direct leak path for unfiltered air to enter the engine. Incidentally, the bowl also makes an excellent water trap, with collected water nicely displacing oil.
The intake plumbing of even the best maintained oil-bath equipped engine is (was) usually coated with a "paste" of dirt that has passed beyond the filter. Whereas the plumbing of a properly maintained dry system is usually hospital clean.
Then there's oil-bath's required frequent labor intensive servicing, -remember, many industrial applications required daily service- with each servicing exposing the engine to a direct dose of dirt.
With a dry system, all connections are gasket sealed, any collected moisture is automatically drained away, and when the service meter indicates that service is actually necessary, it's usually a quick, clean and simple task.
Incidentally, over 20K was a long time to make it breathing dirty air. Most hard-working engines would be finished with just a day or two of taking on dirty unfiltered air.
Ted
Good grief - obviously a 8V71 since that is what he took out.
RE: GM doublespeak about paper being better than oil bath - yet still selling oil bath. I've worked for OEMs & have tried to educate customers, but when they insist on buying something - you sell it to them. . . . .
Oil baths work, but have a relatively narrow range of acceptable air flow. Paper elements work over a much broader range of air flow & performance does not suffer due to low air flow.
Use what ever you want, but I'm going with a paper element intake air filter.
Quote from: JohnEd on August 08, 2011, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: bevans6 on August 05, 2011, 01:27:20 PM
If you want to pay shipping and packing, I'll send you the oil bath filter from my MCI gratis... it has four elements, weighs around 150 lbs and is a lump roughly 16" tall by 20" wide and 24" long... ;)
Brian,
What engine did the OB filter you have come off of? Is it a single pass or are there parallel filters? Is a pic too much trouble to feed my curiosity?
Thank you,
John
Quote from: belfert on August 08, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
I replaced the paper filter in my bus when I bought the bus in 2006. That was probably 25,000 miles ago and it appears to still be going strong. I do have a filter minder and it hasn't moved at all yet.
This is surprising to me as I drive 30 miles across a dry lake bed every year and the dust is out of this world. It probably helps that my air intake is 10 feet off the ground.
Brian, I am concerned about your observation. Yes, the high intake makes a big difference, buy you drive in one of the worst areas in the world for miles and do it each year. I simply can't believe that you air cleaner has not been exposed to huge amounts of fine dust.
If it were me, I would pull the air filter and check it (would assume you have done that). Then I would pull the hose that connects to the turbo and inspect the interior surface to make sure that the dust is not somehow bypassing the filter.
I would also try to find a way to check your filter minder. Even after I put a new filter in, I get some indication on my filter minder.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on August 08, 2011, 05:08:56 PM
I would also try to find a way to check your filter minder. Even after I put a new filter in, I get some indication on my filter minder.
A simple crude test of basic function can be made by partially blocking the air intake while observing the meter.
Ted
Quote from: rv_safetyman on August 08, 2011, 05:08:56 PM
If it were me, I would pull the air filter and check it (would assume you have done that). Then I would pull the hose that connects to the turbo and inspect the interior surface to make sure that the dust is not somehow bypassing the filter.
I would also try to find a way to check your filter minder. Even after I put a new filter in, I get some indication on my filter minder.
It so happens that my bus project for this evening is to reinstall the intake piping from the filter to the turbo. I just went outside and checked the inside of the piping and no dust I can find. There is dust on the exposed parts of the rubber boots past the clamps, but that is to be expected.
I'm reluctant to remove the air filter considering everything I've removed recently I've managed to break. I'm afraid I might not get it reseated properly to avoid air leakage. I had to replace the filter Minder back in 2006 I think because it cracked somehow. How do I know if it is working or not? I have carried a spare air filter for years now as I was worried the fine dust might plug it.
As Ted mentioned I guess i could climb up a ladder and block the intake momentarily and see if the Filter Minder does anything. They can't be expensive to replace.
I;m not sure why I am encouraging this but here goes - pictures of the stock air filter in a 1980 MCI MC-5C with a 8V-71NA stock engine. One of the cups is on the ground. I can barely lift it with one hand, it's more drag it with two. There is no way I could put it back in by myself.
Brian
JohnEd will appreciate the photos Brian he is probably to busy with Google and other sites looking for a 2 stroke Deutz engine trying to win a steak dinner from me lol gota love old John though.
Did you ever figure out what dusted you engine ?
good luck
;D
Clifford, the only thing I can figure is it was running the oil bath filters completely dry for who knows how long. I didn't check them when I got the bus, I ran it for around 4,000 miles before that project rolled up on the list, and yeah, there was a certain sinking feeling... Near as I can figure it ran without oil for a very long time, the PO may never have checked. After I was in the airbox covers and knew it had dust in it, I checked all the hoses and they were good. I won't buy another two stroke without pulling at least one airbox cover and sticking my finger in there to feel for grit.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on August 09, 2011, 05:04:26 AM
After I was in the airbox covers and knew it had dust in it, I checked all the hoses and they were good. I won't buy another two stroke without pulling at least one airbox cover and sticking my finger in there to feel for grit.
Brian
That is SUPERB advice and the first time i have heard it in all the years I have watched these adventures unfold. Sure beats plunking you hard earned... and "rolling the dice".
Thanks Brian,
John
Quote from: TedsBUSted on August 08, 2011, 03:21:56 PM
Politics and philosophy aside...
In my opinion, the greatest single improvement to extended engine life has been the dry element filter system. A system with a pre-cleaner, primary element, and secondary element, has to be ten times more effective than oil bath.
I don't think any would argue that point. The DE "can" be far superior to the OB at the beginning of the DE life cycle. And another point, so far overlooked in this thread is that you cannot use a DE filter that is TOO LARGE Being bigger it will just filter better longer. The OB must be sized, on the other hand.
Besides the haphazard way an oil bath hopes to drop impurities out, most have a poorly sealed bowl and/or connections with a direct leak path for unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Sadly, you don't have a grasp on the way a OB filter actually works. I think the correct FULL name is a Oil Bath "Velocity" Air Filter. Read some data on "velocity: air filters and the OB will make more sense. This new generation of carpet sweepers are advertised as "bag less". With all the hype about swirling cones and such it is you basic velocity air filter and that Hepa filter is for the really fine particulate that is such a challenge to a velocity filter. In your info quest take note of the velocity filters used on tractors and farm equipment that are up-stream of the OB. They are merely a chamber that holds the really large chunks that cannot make the turn into the main charge air channel. They are a pre-filter.....bagless, so to speak. In bad conditions they are emptied by the hour or so. Very effective and they are a straight piece of pipe that makes a turn....no filter, no bag, no oil and no screen.....works gangbusters. Maybe not on "Lone Wolf" Cliffords harvester but, nonetheless. Made its debut right after we switched over from STEAM cause the firebox actually liked that trash coming in so .... no filtering there.
Incidentally, the bowl also makes an excellent water trap, with collected water nicely displacing oil.
That is certainly true. That is every bit the design flaw as the DE getting wet and becoming more restrictive. Neither was expected/designed for application on a submersible. The Dietz OB filter has what looks to be a "turbine wheel" at the very inlet and then there is a longish section of pipe between the "turbine" and the OB element. I didn't suspect the purpose of this design feature till you mentioned rain water. It would seem that Dietz made the air swirl around the inside of the pipe on its way to the filter. That would fling the water droplets to the pipe interior and I'll just bet there is a small weep hole in there. Otherwise, that water getting in there would raise the level of the oil in the bath. The Dietz is designed for "harsh environment" and low maint but I am sure they didn't intend the thing to operate out in the rain.....they are just particular and thorough....like most German manufactures. Even if Clifford is convinced Dietz doesn't exist and wouldn't be bothered by an "imaginary" Dietz being dropped on'm. Har... ;)
The intake plumbing of even the best maintained oil-bath equipped engine is (was) usually coated with a "paste" of dirt that has passed beyond the filter.
That paste is made up of extremely light, soft and small particulate. It isn't all that abrasive and gets pushed around in the mechanical parts of the cylinder. Still, it isn't good in any way, just not all that great a problem. It is minimized by the EDICT to not let a GM 2 stroke idle. It is at idle that the filter performs the worst but that worst is just a caution....not a condemnation of a flaw. In road conditions it take many hundreds of thousands of miles for that coating inside the filter to become even noticeable. I speak from experience, albeit limited.
Whereas the plumbing of a properly maintained dry system is usually hospital clean.
My intakes were clean with the OB. As was/is my DE. The OB has one union.....out let coupling to the intake flange. The DE has that union plus the top of the filter union, plus, the bottom of the element mating to the filter housing. Any other couplings are not part of the filter and housing. From your perspective the DE# is more subject to failure due to air leaks. I think the matter small, but still, you are wrong.
Then there's oil-bath's required frequent labor intensive servicing, -remember, many industrial applications required daily service- with each servicing exposing the engine to a direct dose of dirt.
Consider the cost to trap... say, a 50 pounds of dust. weigh your clean and dirty DE filters. At $125 per each......what did it cost you to keep that much dirt out of your engine? Now consider that no matter how often you check it the OB needs servicing rarely. Mine made it 4 years after I wised up I was wasting my time with that 6 month crap and I was running in a high dust environment....not severe, though. And, the OB actually stops MORE stuff if the crud you get out after a year is any indication. I got maybe 1/8 cup of sludge so 4 years was about a half cup and that was from a 1800 CC VW Beetle and they don't breath hard or heavy.
With a dry system, all connections are gasket sealed, any collected moisture is automatically drained away, and when the service meter indicates that service is actually necessary, it's usually a quick, clean and simple task.
As I pointed out: the DE has many more unions and I don't have a single drain in any of the three filters I am currently using. Ford, Lexus and Dodge
Incidentally, over 20K was a long time to make it breathing dirty air. Most hard-working engines would be finished with just a day or two of taking on dirty unfiltered air.
His point was that the "bath" was empty. The extensive surface area course screen over the bath becomes saturated and goes on trapping particulate for a long time. Oil doesn't evaporate quickly and a little goes a long way in being sticky. Back in "the day" when i rode desert bikes a new fangled thingy happened to us dirt riders. It was called the Green Weeney". Instead of a big and heavy air box and air filter we installed a wiener shaped foam bag with an expanded metal frame inside. We took the foam off of the frame and then wet the foam liberally with the "filter oil". The only filtration on the bike we had was that crummy piece of foam and if you don't think we did a lot of reading and looking at testimonials from near and afar you have at least one more think coming. Well, those things were beyond crazy good. They would turn from medium green to desert tan in minutes. By the end of the day they were thick with dust....1/4 inch thick. Next day that layer of dust had fallen off and revealed a clean.....and oiled....Green Weeney. As this had happened to some while we were riding and far from civilization and filter oil, we continued to ride. Low and behold the thing turned tan again and quickly built up another coating. Limit was three before the coating stuck and didn't fall off and the bike engine started loading up and running hot. In the case of the Weeny, the oil bath was the high tac oil coating. The velocity filter was the air bubbles that the dirty air had to swirl around to make it's way and NOTHING was ever found to be better at filtering dust in the desert. We changed those $20 hi performance paper elements at least ever third day of pleasure riding and before every race. The Weeners cost $30 and they saved everyone a ton of cash an nobody had "dirt" in the engine problems after that, as well. Funny thing, the weeneys could not stop water worth a darn so if there were many deep water crossings we had to revert to the paper elements. A fly in any ointment that you just have to find.
Ted
Ted,
I don't mean any of this to sound harsh or impatient. It isn't so intended. As any journey of discovery it should be enjoyable. Especially if you are self correcting. They are certainly that for me and I get a turn often. ;)
John
well I am new to this whole MCI bus stuff and my MC9 still has the oil bath filter on it..
can someone put up some links of places to get the correct paper filter for my bus.. I want to remove the Oil bath system and would love any help as to where to get correct filter.. thanks
Bruiser, I remember hearing that there is a "drop in" replacement DE cartridge. One thing I might add is that there are elements spec'd for the required air flow for your particular engine. I would consider that spec a minimum. While it may be acceptable you can still go larger. The benifit is that the element will still last longer and will probably cost less in the long run. Probably was the operative word. Twice the air flow rating will net you 1/2 the replacements so if the filter isn't twice as expensive and you can actually install it you would be ahead. Contact Luke at US coach for info on the conversion parts but don't buy till you hear from Clifford on what he might have for sale.
Good luck,
John
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 08, 2011, 03:43:20 PM
Good grief - obviously a 8V71 since that is what he took out.
Ok so I will just chill and reflect on your Bi-Line: "I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant". Seems appropriate in this case. All the rest of what you said sounds so good I will assume you stepped outside your bi-line on that.
Don't forget: "There is no such thing as a dumb question". That specifically does not apply to all "ANSWERS". Just kidding......this is a flat medium and subject to miss interpretation. And, "Good Grief" might mean many different things. Right?
Quote from: JohnEd on August 08, 2011, 03:08:01 PM
Quote from: bevans6 on August 05, 2011, 01:27:20 PM
If you want to pay shipping and packing, I'll send you the oil bath filter from my MCI gratis... it has four elements, weighs around 150 lbs and is a lump roughly 16" tall by 20" wide and 24" long... ;)
Brian,
What engine did the OB filter you have come off of? Is it a single pass or are there parallel filters? Is a pic too much trouble to feed my curiosity?
Thank you,
John
I would think that a 8V71 would have a smaller filter than a 8V71TA. Dunno! But, it should!
On my MCI 8 the PO removed the bottom basket from the OB filter, and there is a replacement drop in DE buttoned right up in there. Only problem is the whole housing has to come out to change the DE, not enough room in there to remove the bottom cover and pull the filter out with the housing in place.
Quote from: thomasinnv on August 11, 2011, 10:21:24 PM
On my MCI 8 the PO removed the bottom basket from the OB filter, and there is a replacement drop in DE buttoned right up in there. Only problem is the whole housing has to come out to change the DE, not enough room in there to remove the bottom cover and pull the filter out with the housing in place.
I think they want the make and model number.
Please,
John
All things being equal, the larger filter will always offer greater flow. A higher flow will put more air into the engine, more air gives more power and burns less fuel. So put in the biggest you can live with.
There is no picture....the motor is older than the camera...well almost.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb468%2Fdphalaska%2FDeutz2.jpg&hash=66a9d8ab77d3fa2b1ea4ac2daa7eebef019fefff)
Thanks Eagle.
STEAM!.......KING of torque!
I like OB air cleaners, simple and effective. Also much cheaper.
I don't buy any of those published "X% better air flow with my paper filter" by people selling paper filters.
My opinion is paper filters came into use because it is a great business and mechanics love them after years of changing messy OB cleaners. Don't blame them, but I don't have to worry about getting greasy, anything you do with a DD is messy, and I don't worry about the time required!!
That monster MC5 air cleaner is a mystery to me, the GM filter for the same engine is less than half that size and no big deal to change except it is kind of hard to get the bottom pan lined up on the studs.
Well I noticed Tim the Tool Man Taylor has a new show on, so we can make jokes about whose is biggest again... I definitely got the biggest air filter! ;D
Quote from: bevans6 on August 15, 2011, 01:54:30 PM
Well I noticed Tim the Tool Man Taylor has a new show on, so we can make jokes about whose is biggest again... I definitely got the biggest air filter! ;D
WHO
WHAT
WHERE
WHEN
WHY
What is the name of it? C'mon ...... share!
BCO
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tim-allen-downsized-abcs-last-220358 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tim-allen-downsized-abcs-last-220358)
Quote from: gus on August 15, 2011, 01:44:43 PM
I like OB air cleaners, simple and effective. Also much cheaper.
I don't buy any of those published "X% better air flow with my paper filter" by people selling paper filters.
They are still used in desert areas. Ive been reading and in the middle east, India, etc., it sounds quite common they install OB filters, paper just cannot deal with the volume of dust. I also havnt seen any increase in general range of overhaul times on Mercedes after they switched. They went 1/2 a million miles with OB filters, they still do with paper, cant be the filter.
Oh well what was the old Fram commercial "pay me now or later" it's your engine run what you like