We currently have a single 6 gal gas/elect water heater installed in a custom compartment next to the generator. It doesn't get enough ventilation to operate on gas and melted the circuit board. Since then we've been using it strictly on electric and I disconnected the gas line from it. Fortunately, it didn't catch the bus on fire!
We're thinking of installing a couple of 120V 29Amp instant water heaters made by Triton. ($210.bucks each) One in the bath plumbing, and one for the kitchen.
My question is-does anyone have any first hand experience with these or any 120V instant hot water heaters? They claim to be rated at 2GPM just like the lower amperage 220V units. I would go with the 220V units and run them off the dryer circuit, but experience has proven that 50amp poles are not always available and I'm not going to fire up the jenny every time we need hotwater LOL.
Let me know what you think and don't hold back. Thanks, Will
For that kind of money ($210x2) I would get an 11-gallon Seaward, available for less than $300. Works great on 120v -- we have scalding hot water in 30-40 minutes on 120, but more importantly, if you plumb it into your heater loop, you'll get hot water for free every time you drive. If you are concerned about 170-degree water, add a tempering valve, another $40 or so.
Our shower runs 3-4gpm, so I'm not sure how well an instant unit rated at 2gpm would keep up. Also, 29 amps is a lot of juice; if you're already concerned about availability of 50-amp pedestals, realize that with just one of these puppies running, you won't be able to have a single other item on in your coach while it's working if you are on a 30-amp pedestal.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on July 31, 2011, 10:07:53 PM(snip) with just one of these puppies running, you won't be able to have a single other item on in your coach while it's working if you are on a 30-amp pedestal.
Will a 30-amp pedestal* even support one of these 29-amp units without popping at an awkward time - even if you have everything else turned off?
(* at least, most of them, in the real world)
I like what Sean has to say. My shower runs greater than 2 gals per minute. I don't have first hand knowledge of these heaters in a bus but I have one in my home that feeds all hot water outlets. I turned on all the hot water faucets at the same time and used a stop watch and a bucket marked for gallons. At the end I tallied my total hot water usage per minute and bought a heater according to that number. It works very well and I never run out of hot water.
The other you need to look at for the temp is the water temp going into your unit. I had to adjust because I have a 400 foot well at the house. That water is so cold it will shrivel your pod. So what I am trying to say is if you live in Texas and buy a heater adjusted to normal Texas water temps and you go to Colorado, your 2 gpm heater may not be able to produce anything more than warmed water.
PP, check with Tom C, if I recall, he has two 10 gal heaters connected together and always has enough hot water
for when ever he needs it. Tom if you read this and it's not correct I apologize.
Steve 5B.....
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 01, 2011, 06:10:16 AM
Will a 30-amp pedestal* even support one of these 29-amp units without popping at an awkward time - even if you have everything else turned off?
If they really draw a full 29 amps, then you can expect it to work on a 30-amp circuit for a few minutes. 30-amp circuit breakers are supposed to trip at 24 amps over a period of hours, and at 30 amps over a period of a second. In between those numbers is a curve that looks more logarithmic than linear. At 29 amps, you can expect anywhere from one to ten minutes, depending on breaker.
That said, I've had breakers that would trip on 95% load in less than a minute, and ones that would support that amount of load almost indefinitely.
Remember, too, that breakers are rated at 77° -- any ambient temperature higher than that will reduce the amperage the breaker can carry before tripping thermally. Since you still need hot water even when it's 100° outside, you need to account for this. I would expect a device drawing 29 amps to trip a 30-amp pedestal breaker in less than a minute under those conditions.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
We had a propane instant water heater in our last bus (Paloma). It did work fine even though you had to get the flow right. I would consider something like that again. However, we now have a 10 residential electric water heater, and it is quite acceptable also. It takes less than an hour to bring it up to temp, which we set high so it will go further. Also, it keeps the water hot enough for many hours even after it is turned off. On our last trip, we did mostly dry camping. I ran the generator for an hour in the morning and again in the evening to top off the batteries and heat the water. Usually there was still usable hot water in the morning, but of course, this is summer. One could also time their showers, etc, to coincide with the generator run time to get the most out of it. If you are plugged in at a campground, you can even turn the water heater off once it is up to heat (we have an interior switch) to free up energy capacity for something else. I don't think the water heater is a necessary place to invest in exotics.
Quote from: Lin on August 01, 2011, 10:09:39 AM(snip) I don't think the water heater is a necessary place to invest in exotics.
True, but I like the idea of reliability and flexibility in a water heater. (That's why I went for a 10 gal propane/electric/"coil" type.)
Quote from: Sean on August 01, 2011, 10:09:39 AMI would expect a device drawing 29 amps to trip a 30-amp pedestal breaker in less than a minute under those conditions.
Yeah, that was my guess but I didn't have the solid numbers. Thanks for the info.
Definitely agree that having propane as an option is good. For me, it would depend on cost and venting requirements.
Quote from: Lin on August 01, 2011, 11:15:43 AMDefinitely agree that having propane as an option is good. For me, it would depend on cost and venting requirements.
Yes, important requirements. In my case, the venting is a part of unit (and the unit fits onto a suitable part of the bus) and I'm already running propane for cooking. So there's little cost increase in piping for propane (and there's little cost increase in the difference between a unit without propane and with). Works for me but others' way in good for them, too.
I appreciate all the input. I would use a propane water heater in a heartbeat if I had a safe place to mount it. Fortunately, the one I'm still using on AC didn't burn my bus up. Looking at the melted circuit board I can only guess that it was a safety feature that shut off the gas to it before doing serious damage to the bus. My hesitation in using a 10gal AC unit is that I thought they were constructed with a glass interior, and although I do stay off the sidewalks most of the time, sometimes I can feel a jarring pothole pretty good and I would worry about the glass breaking and leaking. Maybe I'm wrong about the construction of them and if this is the case, please, someone correct me. Thanks, Will
just posted this in another thread, but we just installed a 30 gallon Sears/Kenmore electric (single element) 110V water heater (1650 watt) in our water bay. Works fantastic, haven't run out of hot water yet (even with two hot showers back-to-back 2.5 gpm) and we're currently on 30 amp service and haven't had a single issue yet. FWIW.
Quote from: PP on August 01, 2011, 03:24:42 PM
.. I thought they were constructed with a glass interior, and although I do stay off the sidewalks most of the time, sometimes I can feel a jarring pothole pretty good and I would worry about the glass breaking and leaking. Maybe I'm wrong about the construction of them and if this is the case, please, someone correct me. ...
I think you have the wrong mental image. The glass lining of a water heater is not like a glass bottle; it is vitreous glass that has been "baked on" to the inside of the steel pressure vessel. The water heater tank is still steel, but it has a "glass lining", much like a coat of epoxy. Even the best glass lining process still leaves voids, and there is almost always exposed steel around the fittings, which is why even glass-lined tanks need sacrificial anodes to keep the steel from rusting away.
These water heaters are shipped all over the country by truck freight -- those linings are pretty durable. The worst that might happen is there will be some chipping of the lining as it ages. But nothing you can do by driving around in a bus will put nearly the strain on the glass lining that the simple and routine expansion and contraction of the steel tank will exert under normal use, so I would not worry about it. And the vitreous glass itself is inert and therefore non-toxic.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
As Steve 5B said correctly, I have two 10gal electric water heaters-one plumbed into the next with the final one wired through the inverter for hot water while driving (I don't like all the extra coolant plumbing necessary for a heat exchanger). They have worked flawlessly now since I started the bus conversion in 1994. Can't beat that record and except for draining when I remember to, no maintenance either. Not to many other water heating systems can say that. And I can run the water heaters one at a time off a 20 amp plug if need be. Good Luck, TomC
We put one in expecting it to take care of the kitchen. Because of flow, it does not work. I would not recommend these units to anyone. We have one in our house. We thought with us being gone as much as we are, that it would save us money. I have hated it since day one. It took 3 of them and a lot of time wasted talking to the company before we got one to work. I still hate it. It fluctuates constantly. Take a shower, and you have to constantly turn it hotter, then cooler. When I get the chance, I want to re-install a regular water heater. Anyhow, that is our experience. Hope it helps.
Thanks again for all the good information, especially Sean and Ruthi. Between the two of you, we've decided against the electric instant hot water heaters and are now seriously considering the Seaward or a conventional 10 gal (just 1 Tom). On the road when we need hot water and can't just heat up some on the stove, I don't mind running the jenny, since that's about the only time we run it anyway. All our other electrical needs are handled through the inverter except for the AirCond. Will and Wife
I'll throw in again that we ordered a 30gal 110v single element unit from Sears that has excellent long-term ratings, and we've been using it while on 30 amp service without an issue. It fits in the bay along with my 100 gallon black/grey and 100 gallon fresh tanks with room to spare. Took me just a couple of hours to plumb in and get set right. We've never run out of hot water...and my wife and I take long hot showers through a 2.5 GPM head. Unit was $299 and even looks nice under there. If you're paying nearly the same amount for a 10 gallon, why not bring it up a bit? Just a thought...we're new to this, so take what we say with a teeny tiny grain of salt ;)
Quote from: freshdaymusic on August 03, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
.. If you're paying nearly the same amount for a 10 gallon, why not bring it up a bit? ...
Lots of reasons:
1. The element is the same wattage, so starting from a cold start, it will take more than three times as long (and three times the energy) to get the water up to working temperature.
2. The extra 20 gallons will add 170 pounds of weight (plus the additional weight of the larger tank) to your coach, bay floor, etc.. Water in the water heater is "inaccessible" in the sense that it does not add anything to your usable tank capacities (no way to get it out without putting more in).
3. Depending on tank shape and orientation, that extra 20 gallons will also take up an additional 4-6 cubic feet of space, which will not then be available for other storage.
4. The larger the tank, the greater the heat losses in the system, so for a given amount of hot water usage, it will take more energy to use a tank this size.
Now, if you have a large family and your on-board water system is going to need to provide, say four or five showers a day, plus dishes, etc., then it does make sense to increase the size of the system. But in seven years of full-timing, even with occasional guests on board, we have never, ever run out of hot water from our 11-gallon system. In fact, I consider it rather luxurious in comparison to the 6-gallon model that my old S&S rig had.
On top of all that, a marine type unit such as the 11-gallon Seaward I mentioned gets you free hot water while you drive. Now if all you do is go from pole to pole, that probably does not mean much, but if you do any dry camping at all, this can be a big boon. So, yes, I'd much rather pay $300 for an 11-gallon hydronic/electric model than the same $300 for a 30-gallon electric-only household model.
FWIW and YMMV.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I'm sorry that Ruthi has had such poor service from a "flow-through" water heater. I had an "emergency replacement" of my home water heater about New Years; I went with a gas-type, externally mounted flow-through heater and have loved it. Mine is a low-tech unit but it's provided just about perfect hot water under all the conditions that we've needed. There is a simple heat control on it and I found that I needed to switch that "dip-switch" to the hotter position but it's always worked perfectly low-flow or high-flow. (What may be important to know is that there's only the two of us there and we're pretty gentle with water use; a larger family may find different results, but in the seven months we've had it, the unit has worked just as we'd wanted it.)
(Also, don't know how this will translate to use in a bus conversion, but my home-use experience has been highly satisfactory.)
Ruthi, most of these work on the pressure principle. When you open the tap the water pressure goes down, the water starts to flow and the heater comes on. If you have a shower saver head it works by restricting the water, hence the pressure remains high and the unit thinks you have turned the tap off so the heater goes out. When you adjust the tap for more hot water the same scenario repeats itself. Try taking the shower head off and you will notice that there is no fluctuation. Probably the same problem in your kitchen.
Regards
Fred Mc.
Biggest problem in our buses is constant pressure with these heaters. The surge of the pumps screws the sensors in these heaters up. The gas ones might work better. Or they might work better with a minimum of a 5 gal per minute pump and a expansion tank. Just a observation. Bob ps if your hooked up to city water all the time that's a differant story.
Quote from: Sean on August 03, 2011, 09:24:14 AM
Quote from: freshdaymusic on August 03, 2011, 06:29:40 AM
.. If you're paying nearly the same amount for a 10 gallon, why not bring it up a bit? ...
Lots of reasons:
1. The element is the same wattage, so starting from a cold start, it will take more than three times as long (and three times the energy) to get the water up to working temperature.
2. The extra 20 gallons will add 170 pounds of weight (plus the additional weight of the larger tank) to your coach, bay floor, etc.. Water in the water heater is "inaccessible" in the sense that it does not add anything to your usable tank capacities (no way to get it out without putting more in).
3. Depending on tank shape and orientation, that extra 20 gallons will also take up an additional 4-6 cubic feet of space, which will not then be available for other storage.
4. The larger the tank, the greater the heat losses in the system, so for a given amount of hot water usage, it will take more energy to use a tank this size.
Now, if you have a large family and your on-board water system is going to need to provide, say four or five showers a day, plus dishes, etc., then it does make sense to increase the size of the system. But in seven years of full-timing, even with occasional guests on board, we have never, ever run out of hot water from our 11-gallon system. In fact, I consider it rather luxurious in comparison to the 6-gallon model that my old S&S rig had.
On top of all that, a marine type unit such as the 11-gallon Seaward I mentioned gets you free hot water while you drive. Now if all you do is go from pole to pole, that probably does not mean much, but if you do any dry camping at all, this can be a big boon. So, yes, I'd much rather pay $300 for an 11-gallon hydronic/electric model than the same $300 for a 30-gallon electric-only household model.
FWIW and YMMV.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Ohhh. Ok. This makes perfect sense...I like the concept of Hydronic heat from the engine. It is wasted heat otherwise....We're pole-to-pole people mostly so in some respects our needs are different. We love our unit, but again, our needs are different. But the unit really doesn't take up what I consider an unacceptable amount of space in the bay. 170 lbs. isn't going to cause us grief since we're weighing in at 27,000 lbs at the moment and a bit underweight (coach rides rough) and I had noticed that a few individuals have plumbed twin 10 gallon 1500 watt units in series and I figured those used more power (3000 watts total v.s. 1650 on our single element unit) and were more work..but I know they have a place too. To each his own I guess. We have different needs since we'll hardly boondock....so I guess we have it a bit easier.
I checked out the Seaward water heaters and I really like the stainless 11g model. (I have a thing about stainless) But the biggest benefit is its size--it should fit in nicely beside the jenny where the existing is currently habitating and I can take advantage of the heat exchanger without too much plumbing. Must admit, I'm a little nervouse about splicing into a perfectly good (ie-non leaking) cooling system. But it's all good. Thanks for the info Sean.
Fresh, I'm assuming your 30 gal is a std round home style heater. The space that I have available for my heater is square, unless I give up the slider shelf above it, but that's where I store my towbar and mounting brackets when not in use (along with emergency road flares, etc). Even then, I think a round 30 is more than we need and too wide for the space. All the same, I appreciate your input, Will
Yes sir...home unit. Short cylinder. I'd love to see a photo of where your Seaward will go...I'm trying to envision in near the genny...and we're new to this, so we're not necessarily utilizing our space as efficiently as we should be...
Scott and Heather, it must be nice to not have to worry about space constraints LOL
Will ;D
I will get you a picture in the near future and post it for you.
Scott and Heather, I checked out your bus on the other thread, WAY COOL! The slide show brought back memories of when the wife and I did our Skoolie way back in the .....
Anyway, here are the pictures I promised. In the second one you can see where the circuit board is melted. Will
Great pics! I didn't realize for some reason that you had a Prevost. Typically, the bay MCI's use for the genset wouldn't be shaped quite like yours. Now I get it *smacks forehead with hand*. From the looks of the pic, you'd never want a house-type unit. Would love to see a pic of the new stainless 11g when you get it. Maybe one day we'll get one when we buy a weight bench and install it on a slide-out tray where our old 30 gallon water heater was :)