i was on hwy 90 today we stopped at the last rest stop going west. as we left i seemed to be losing power.we stopped to pay a $15 toll with a $50 bill and i was asked for identification, but i digress. the buss stalled in the lane . i was able to get it started and coast to a truck lot on the side of the road near the toll plaza. i took of the fuel filters and one was full and the other almost empty.the bus would not start so i called allstate they said a flatbed would be out in 70 min,they never came.the excuse was i was in a restricted area.so they had to send a police tow. the tow came and he hooked me up from the rear and towed me to his yard. keep in mind i have my 2.5 year old and a handicapped pregnant wife in the 100 dregree bus with no a/c as my genny is broken so i had A cab come and bring them to a la quinta for $125 per night. i will hire a car from alamo tommorow to bring them back to new Hampshire. the question is what is wrong with my 4106? i think it is the fuel pump??? what else could it be? and how hard is it to install? and how much and where can i get one? thanks tom
Try these guys, good luck! ;)
http://www.superpages.com/bp/Albany-NY/Atlantic-Detroit-Diesel-Allison-L0500790939.htm (http://www.superpages.com/bp/Albany-NY/Atlantic-Detroit-Diesel-Allison-L0500790939.htm)
We've only been 4106 owners for a month now - but the when we experienced a stall out while we were inspecting our bus before purchase, it was the fuel tank getting too low. Adding 10 gallons and priming the engine worked like a charm.
It feels like it's too obvious of a thing to bring up, as I'm sure you're much more diligent about keeping your fuel tank above 10-20 gallons that the fella we bought our bus from. But thought I'd toss this in the thread... just in case.
Best wishes on getting everything handled... dealing with these things in the extreme heat is extra torturous. Please do update as you find stuff out, us new 4106 owners are soaking up all the experience we can.
- Cherie
Here's a better map, best o luck- :)
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=&q=281+Wolf+Road+in+Albany,+NY&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS351US441&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89de0c591f8577a5:0xc0cbe165ee8a5bbb,281+Wolf+Rd,+Latham,+NY+12110&gl=us&ei=EqcrTrzPOuyn0AHlkbXyCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=&q=281+Wolf+Road+in+Albany,+NY&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS351US441&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89de0c591f8577a5:0xc0cbe165ee8a5bbb,281+Wolf+Rd,+Latham,+NY+12110&gl=us&ei=EqcrTrzPOuyn0AHlkbXyCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA)
There are also a couple of La Quinta's Not to far from the DD shop, hope this helps.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=&q=281+Wolf+Road+in+Albany,+NY&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS351US441&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89de0c591f8577a5:0xc0cbe165ee8a5bbb,281+Wolf+Rd,+Latham,+NY+12110&gl=us&ei=EqcrTrzPOuyn0AHlkbXyCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=&q=281+Wolf+Road+in+Albany,+NY&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS351US441&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89de0c591f8577a5:0xc0cbe165ee8a5bbb,281+Wolf+Rd,+Latham,+NY+12110&gl=us&ei=EqcrTrzPOuyn0AHlkbXyCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA)
we had over 3/4 tank of fuel from the Indian reservation, it seems to be green when i poured it out. anyone know how much a pump is and do you all think that is the problem?
Change your filters and reprime you will probably be ok fwiw the fuel pumps cost a little over 100 bucks for a rebuilt pump and no guarantee it will work they are not hard to change but do the easy stuff first
good luck
I filled the filters back up but will still not fire up. Why would it lose prime.?
Why would the pump fail? When i dumped out the filters all looked fine.
Wife hates me and is most likely asking for pointers from casey anthony or scot peterson.....
If the fuel pump gets air in it, it will not pump very well. If it got air in it and you weren't out of fuel, then you could have an air leak in the fuel line coming from the tank. The pumps are very simple and I don't believe one would quit suddenly. More likely, there is something else causing your problems.
If you set up a priming pump, you will be able to get the fuel pump purged of air. Then, the pump ought to work okay.
You haven't mentioned some critical things, yet.
When you try to start the engine, does it crank normally? If it does, do you get a cloud of smoke, probably white?
No smoke, no fuel. In that case, you want to make sure that the shutoff lever on the governor is in the run position.
If it cranks too slowly, a short snort of ether (about one second) should increase engine speed enough to purge the pump IF you have the governor in the full run position. More ether can damage your engine, so don't get carried away.
Let us know what you find out. Perhaps, we can get it figured out.
Take care.
Tom Caffrey
I wouldn't jump to FP right away. More than a few have had a fuel line collapse from the tank to filter. It is common to trouble shoot this by sticking a hose into a diesel can, and attaching it straight to the FP, prime and see if it runs...
be careful though, use a big diesel can as without the fuel return the can will empty quickly....and then you will be priming again.
Here's hoping that no news yet, means that this problem is being resolved and he gets on his way :) Being broke down on the Interstate is terrifying by itself, let alone on the shoulder with traffic zooming by. Guess it was fortunate it happened in the toll plaza where the traffic speeds are much slower, and some assistance was available ;). Glad everyone got off the thruway safely. :)
Sounds very frustrating, mine happened in a million dollar house Cul de sac! But you need to slow down and diagnose the problem. Not start replacing parts.
When it happened to me some well meaning people told me it was the fuel pump. I was ready to run off and order a pump but cooler heads prevailed and talked me through the process. More than likely if it were the fuel pump the filter would not be empty.
This is opposite my experience, unlike an auto the pump sucks fuel to the engine it does not pump it from the tank. So as a shade tree mechanic I would guess the pump sucked the filter dry?
Mine turned out to be the fuel line plugged with alge. Alge can plug a filter and fuel lines it would look like a very thick clear fluid with small black particles in it.
Keep checking here there are some pretty sharp people willing to help.
JIm
FWIW, on my 4106 I bumped the Emergency shut off while reaching for a drink out of the window. Thanks to this board I remembered to look at -- then rest my "flapper" and I was off and running.
When Luvrbus was installing my Jakes I took note of a cute priming pump he uses to restart engines. I have one in my tool box now.
Mike pretty neat huh? I am partial to my elec prime pump, but I think every one should have at least some method of priming the system. after the accident last week (totally unrelated to this of course) I shudder at the thought of any one being down on the side of the freeways, too too dangerous!
let's be safe out there ;)
Van
i have a cover on my reset and have no idea where the flappers are there is not much chance of algae as i was down to 35 gallons and filled her up 300 miles before i also have an algeex unit on the bus. the collapsed pipe sounds like it might be the problem? how should i hook up the engine to my boat tank? i just got home in a rented car with the preagnant wife and the 2 y/o and will head back in the morning.
it cranks but will not turn over no smoke at all.
FWIW I have seen a few pics of '04s and '06s for sale with a hose suspended along the side from the fuel tank to the engine bay. A kind of get it home fix. If I wanted to trouble shoot the fuel line I might do the same, sacrifice a garden hose, stick it down the fuel fill hole, and run it to the back, you would need to prime it, and sad as it is to say, I know for a fact that sucking on a diesel hose is not as nasty as sucking on a gas hose. That being said , you should get a prime pump as covered here all over the place....you can plumb it in in various configs and get fuel to the FP and on to the secondary filter. BTW the fuel line can collapse inwards with age, or the pick up can become to blocked to allow fuel through, or other scenarios. All this has befallen many other busnuts, and may have befallen you. Hey while we are talking prime, your bypass electric prime pump when plumbed in should help diagnose a blocked fuel supply.
on the spline is there a shear pin? that may of sheared? also where are the flappers? seems i have hit the button but it never did anything. i will spend the day in the impound yard tomorrow.
i really wish the rear start was still functional, i think when gem did the rebuilds they just cut the wires.
Not too hard to find the starter relay in the back panel and you can then wire a temp switch or whatever to start.
No shear pin the pump has a small square shaft that slides into the drive yoke the blower turns doesn't sound like you lost the blower drive or the pump drive probably just debris build up inside a fitting has stopped the fuel pickup remove and inspect the check valve for debris
good luck
i see the check valve on sec 12 page 1 but i have no idea if i have one installed.
that was another one of my thoughts. i will also stick a camera down the filler tube to try and get a look at the pick up....b.t.w what color should my fuel be? seems i have green in there now but i always thought it should be clear?
Green color is fine for fuel most all the new fuel is a green tint now
good luck
I had a similar problem last year in Wyoming, What we found was a chunk of rubber, probably from inside a fuel line, in the bypass valve holding it open. Cleaned it up and it has worked great ever since. (replaced the fuel lines) Wilbur
The flappers are inside the air horn, the casting on top of the blower. Since you have no smoke when cranking, they are not the problem.
Concentrate on why there is no fuel to the injectors, including making sure that the governor stop lever is in the run position when cranking.
Good luck.
Tom Caffrey
I know you say you should have plenty of fuel. But the first thing I'd do is add 15-20 gallons & see what happens. That would narrow it down real fast.
where is the governor stop lever?? also i have 100 gallons of fuel on board, i had just done a fill up at smokin joes 200 miles before.
the fill up assumes no leaks....that being said, I would run a fuel hose along from the filler neck to the filters, and prime it. Bet it starts. You can then drive it home and finish the repairs at home?
Boyce
ps I feel your pain trying to have a nice time with the family, and things going bad. Been there done that multiple times!
It would be worth it to put new filters in even if you don't think you have a problem with them. Process of elimination when you are not sure where to start, and your troubleshooting time is worth more than a filter change. When I fulled three weeks ago at the Seneca reservation in New York ($3.61 gal) I noticed shortly after that my fuel pressure dropped. Not enough to make me change the filters, but it did make me think I got some dirty fuel. The previous owner installed a pressure gauge on the fuel line so he could tell when to change the filters.
Another possibility is that if your fuel level was way down when you filled it up, you may have disturbed some junk in the bottom of the tank which got sucked up and created a clog. As stated before, change the filters and add some fuel. Probably the least expensive and easiest place to start. Fuel pump is way way down on the list of probable causes. If a filter change and adding some fuel doesn't get results, then do like others said and run a test line from the filler neck.
For those in the know, is there usually a screen on the pickup tube like on gasoline vehicles, or is it open?
My mysterious losing power then cranking without starting was electrical. The front to back switch in the engine compartment was failing causing a loss of power as it intermittently worked. The crank and not start happened when the switch failed. Easy test is to change switch from front to back and see if you start up.
Mike
There may have been a screen when it was new! Over the years who knows what happened? My MCI had a functioning back flow/check? valve on the pickup tube in the tank.
Because of check valve if you want to pressure test the line, unhook at the tank and test. Also only use light air pressure 10 lbs or less for test. JIm
Desi,
I had a similar problem with my 4104 starving for fuel. I first changed the pump - to no avail. I then tried sucking on the disconnected fuel line (at engine compartment) from the tank and found it was plugged. Couldn't get any fuel to come through. I went to the fuel tank and discovered a check valve at the fuel pick up in the tank.
It is a one-way valve. This valve prevents the fuel in the line from draining all the way back into the tank when you shut down. Anyway, I took that check valve off and blew a big chunk of crud out of it. I refilled my filters and she fired right up. Later I added a spin-on fuel filter between the fuel tank pick up and the check valve to (hopefully) prevent this situation occuring again.
Have you tried sucking on the fuel line (at engine compartment) from the tank? If you don't get any fuel, look for that check valve at the fuel pick up on your tank. Hope this helps.
Kevin
Desi,
I really hate to beat up on a guy when he's down, but I have to say that if you are going to drive one of these old beasts and you do not have an unlimited checkbook, then you really need to educate yourself on how they work and their little idiosyncrasies. Second only to the 4104, there is probably not a simpler machine on the road than the 4106.
Barring catastrophic failure, it only needs fuel and air to run.
The only thing that would affect the air supply is a clogged filter or a tripped shutdown. Since you get no smoke when trying to start, we can generally rule out air.
The only components of the fuel system are
1.) The tank Did you stick the tank to be sure there is fuel in it. A leaking return line could easily empty the tank in a hundred miles.
2.) Clogged filters. If there is the slightest doubt, just change them, cheap and simple even on the side of the road.
3.) Suction leak. Probably the hardest thing to find and fix. The simplest way is to substitute the line with a short temporary hose from a fuel can.
4.) Bad fuel pump. Next in the fuel circuit but least likely to be the problem.
5.) Rack in no fuel position. Simple visual check on most engines.
6.) blocked return line. Disconnect the return line at the engine.
Now, for any of these to work, you also have to be sure that there is no air in the fuel supply all the way from the tank to the block.
An electric pump at the tank is the most convenient way to do that, but there are alternatives. You could disconnect the fuel line at the primary filter and just blow into the tank using a short piece of hose and your hand or a rag to make a seal. Just keep moving the disconnect fuel line further up the chain until you get to the fuel pump. Once there is fuel and no air at the pump, you should be good to go.
Good luck to you.
You could disconnect the fuel line at the primary filter and just blow into the tank using a short piece of hose and your hand or a rag to make a seal.
R the GM tanks vented? JIm
Quote from: jjrbus on July 25, 2011, 12:27:49 PM
You could disconnect the fuel line at the primary filter and just blow into the tank using a short piece of hose and your hand or a rag to make a seal.
R the GM tanks vented? JIm
Yes, I had forgotten about that. You would have to block off the whistle tube, not hard to do.
I've done it before I installed a primer pump (the very next day), but I did use compressed air and not my lungs. I do think it would work in a pinch.
may have a check valve both in tank pick up and near rear bulkhead as well. mine did. and the one near the engine plugged up.
I wouldnt go anywhere without a manual, even tho i work on these kind of engines all the time.
none of the above were the problem........... i had a cracked brass nipple on the algeex it took me all of three min to find what i did was put my hand on it and it fell off, if my wife had been a little more paitent i could of found it right then and there but instead i paid for a hotel and a rental car to take her and the baby home and then drive all the way back to albany and fix it in less than an hour including charging the batteries with the rental car. total bill to all state motor club $1095 total i have paid to allstate motor club $6.99
Glad to hear it was a simple fix. What is a algeex?
it is a device that removes all the algee in the fuel before it gets burnt,
Aside from the related costs things couldn't have worked out better.
Guesses are just that. With all the input you still had to do it your own way.
Safe travels and the very best to you and your wife.
thanks guys for all your help!!! safe and sound at home......
congrat's, another adventure put to bed... :D
i had fun the wife was not amused..........
Wife's r like that. JIm
Tell your wife: "Are you mad at me because of my bus, or would you rather I chased women like other men?"
;D
she would rather have me chase women.she hates my guts.
if that's true, I recommend turning right at the next intersection instead of left like you normally would to find your way home. Life is too short to hang with someone who hates your guts.
Brian (been there, done that, made the turn)