I tried the search and got lots of information about flushing the cooling system, but nothing really about the water to use.
Can I use tap water to flush my cooling system? I need to flush the system because I am switching from green coolant to a red extended life coolant that is on Detroit's approved list. From what I have read I might have to do this up to 7 or 8 times to get all of the old coolant out. I am not doing this to correct any cooling issues.
How can I drain out all of the water so my coolant to water ratio is correct when I am done? Do I need to worry about running just plain water in the engine temporarily? (Will it hurt the water pump?)
I never use anything but tap water to flush with never been a problem that I know of
good luck
Brian,
To flush your system you need to get the engine up to the temp that opens the thermostat. To do that I inserted a piece of cardboard box to cover the entire front of the rad. I drained the rad....drained the block by opening the TWO drain cocks and made sure that my defroster was on for High Heat. I filled my system with a "few boxes" of washing soda and ran it till it got up to temp and ran it there for 30 min. The soda acts like a detergent and cleans away any scale or hard water deposits. The water with soda in it has a slippery feel and that is the tattle tale....that "feel". After that I refilled and did it over till the water coming out felt like water. I filled the system with tap water and coolant, ran it briefly and took a sample. I then ran the coach for a couple hundred miles and took another sample. I was looking for a leak of exhaust into the coolant cause that is how this started......exhaust in the coolant.....for the second time and the first was due to a cracked turbo.
When I went into the shop to get the results of the tests my Buddy was frowning. He said "we have racked our brains trying to figure out how you lost antifreeze protection by driving a couple hundred miles". And he looked seriously befuddles. My answer was that while we drained the rad and block we never drained the driver's heater core or lines. While I filled the "system" with fresh coolant" that defroster needed the open road and a couple minutes of "defrost" to add it freshwater contents to the system and effectively "reduce" the freeze protection. Even at that the difference was only a small amt but those analysis boys are all about the parts per million.
If you are going to use distilled water to charge your system then you need to blow air into the drivers system hose to blow out all the water so you start with a completely "dry" cooling system. If you did that between the flushes you might get by with only a couple flushes......lots of water for the driver. If you have the stock bus passenger heating you need to do this a little different and MORE.
Don't use distilled water for the rad. Distilled water is acidic. Clifford mentioned that in another post and a engineer told me that many years ago. Valances or ions or eons or whatever....chemistry crap I will never understand and have no desire. Tell me what to use....mineral free soft water or reverse osmosis. Easy peezy. That reverse osmosis water costs 25 cents a gallon at your supermarket "bring your own container" machine. I don't want to call him ouit on that price but even a quarter cost more than 25 cents around here these days. Had a Senior Moment?
Good luck Brian, After you recharge the system draw a sample and send it off. Baseline and piece of mind and a spiffy piece of paper that is not intelligible except for the summary that says NO PROBLEM.
John
John
One of the problems I have is I can't get the drain plugs loose except from the radiator. I ended up draining most of the system when I removed hoses from the water pump. I know a few more tricks now that might get those other plugs loose.
I had always heard it was a good idea to mix distilled water with coolant. I guess it is good I didn't buy any distilled water yet.
Brian,
This is a chemistry question on an exam: If you have a tank that holds 100 gallons and you add 50 gallons of water and 50 gallons of alcohol to fill it and then you drain 50 gallons and refill with water, how many times must you repeat this process to get the contents down to 98% water by volume?
The moral is get it all out between flushes or you will be there forever. Find a way. Get the drain plugs out and replace them with drain cocks that accept a hose. Blow all the coolant out of the drivers subsystem.
Way to many people use tap water and way to many use distilled water for that to be a completely bad idea. Go with the best process and materials you can afford. Some parts of the country have really hard water and others, like here, have really soft water. So I guess we are stuck with Clint's advice : "A man has got to know his limitations" and what kind of water he is talk'n bout. Water from the Colorado down in AZ is chewable and has enough pesticides in to satisfy even the most discriminating of sophisticated palates.
Good luck Amigo,
John
The water here has 15 grains of hardness and it has iron. I have a water softener or my toilets turn black before too long. I don't think I would use it to mix with coolant if I had a choice. For flushing I don't think it is a bad choice.
I better get back outside and finish hooking things up so I can flush the remaining coolant. It is way cooler today with a dew point of only 54 degrees. The dew point was 82 degrees two days ago and not much less yesterday.
I'm about to flush my system as well to install a new cooling system, so I got a question: can you simply take out the two thermostats to make flushing easier? I'm hoping this saves the time and fuel to run it up to operating temp every time.
I'm also thinking of using my shopvac to blow out the excess water during the final flush.
Also, would vinegar (acedic acid I believe?) be more effective at removing water deposits?
Thanks
Sounds like flushing the heater loop might work better if you take one of the hoses off and connect a garden hose for a good flush followed by a blast of air to get rid of the water.
Once you get rid of the antifreeze, there are flush solutions to use. Think FF says DD even has one.
Would be a good time to check out those hoses too.
Good luck
Don 4107
Brian, I believe the 60 series with some of the extended life pre-charged antifreezes brands do require distilled water on the final fill,I always use RO water and it always tested good for years around here distilled water is 2 bucks a gal and RO is 5 gals for a buck,water cost more than the antifreeze and fuel cost a few years ago lol.
John is right about the water here the stuff is nasty in Idaho I use tap water in the batteries those people there think you are a nut case buying bottle water in some areas if you can even find it.
Follow your instructions the designer color antifreeze and your engine are to pricey not to do it right
good luck
i was just in Niagara falls Canada and they tried to tell me green prestone was fine to use in my
Detroit Diesel 8V71N so i didn't buy any and just ran clear water for over 100 miles in 100 degree weather. what happend was the exhaust flex tube broke and i had to pull out the radiator a little to be able to fix it. when i drained the antifreeze it was black as mud. what should i use for the best protection?????
Quote from: RoyJ on July 21, 2011, 02:49:56 PM
I'm about to flush my system as well to install a new cooling system, so I got a question: can you simply take out the two thermostats to make flushing easier? I'm hoping this saves the time and fuel to run it up to operating temp every time.
I'm also thinking of using my shopvac to blow out the excess water during the final flush.
Also, would vinegar (acedic acid I believe?) be more effective at removing water deposits?
Thanks
Some of the flush kits have acidic cleaners and use a base to neutralize the flush. Some hav base cleaners and use a mild acid to neutralize the remnants of the cleaner. Others say to flush with water but don't include any neutralizer. Washing soda is pretty mild stuff that seems to work well in my personal experience. It is also cheap so you can use a lot and take out the guess work. The washing soda box used to mention using it as a rad flush and coffee pot cleaner for lime and scale. Liability stuff I guess has stopped that. But maybe it is the worst idea in the world....I dunno. Some of the commercial flushes used to list it as their active ingredient.
Distilled water is around 70 cents a gallon at Walmart. I haven't seen RO water for $1 for five gallons, but I don't know what they charge at a grocery store. I'm using Zyrex Extended Life Heavy Duty. It doesn't specifically say if it requires distilled water.
I've already replaced nearly every hose in the system. The main ones that haven't been replaced are the lines to front for the defrost and driver's heat. They should probably be replaced, but it would take me all summer to replace them without a pit or a lift for the bus.
Quote from: desi arnaz on July 21, 2011, 06:45:11 PM
i was just in Niagara falls Canada and they tried to tell me green prestone was fine to use in my
Detroit Diesel 8V71N so i didn't buy any and just ran clear water for over 100 miles in 100 degree weather. what happend was the exhaust flex tube broke and i had to pull out the radiator a little to be able to fix it. when i drained the antifreeze it was black as mud. what should i use for the best protection?????
Are you sure you don't have oil or some other contamination in the coolant? Do you still have a sample to get analyzed?
i did save a gallon or two i will transfer some to a pop bottle and have it checked. it did smell proper but was real dirty. did not feel oily nor is there water in the oil. \on straight water buss purrs like a kitten. i did pull in to kampark in the falls and walked over to this sweet old German bus couple they said they heard me coming and thought i had an exhaust problem, i didn't look for a few days and when i did i found the flex pipe broken in half.also i was kicked out of scotts trailer park for not paying before 11,30 in the morning and hanging two towels off my awning. owner screamed he was going to call police if i didn't leave in 15 min.
Keep a close eye on it you may have a oil cooler going bad
good luck
Quote from: RoyJ on July 21, 2011, 02:49:56 PM
I'm about to flush my system as well to install a new cooling system, so I got a question: can you simply take out the two thermostats to make flushing easier? I'm hoping this saves the time and fuel to run it up to operating temp every time.
I'm also thinking of using my shopvac to blow out the excess water during the final flush.
Also, would vinegar (acedic acid I believe?) be more effective at removing water deposits?
Thanks
I think that isn't a good idea. the stats cause the engine to warm faster. They don't impede the draining any at all.
John
how do i tell if it is the oil cooler? would the fluid be oily? how much is an oil cooler? is it a part of the radiator?? it really just looked dirty. i will loook at it when i drain out the pure water.another ? is the block aluminum or Steele?
winco is charging 30 cents a gallon in oregon for the RO water. Us hicks in the country buy it, cause even with filters and water softers, the well water is a bit strange... ;D
Quote from: JohnEd on July 21, 2011, 09:55:33 PM
Quote from: RoyJ on July 21, 2011, 02:49:56 PM
I'm about to flush my system as well to install a new cooling system, so I got a question: can you simply take out the two thermostats to make flushing easier? I'm hoping this saves the time and fuel to run it up to operating temp every time.
I'm also thinking of using my shopvac to blow out the excess water during the final flush.
Also, would vinegar (acedic acid I believe?) be more effective at removing water deposits?
Thanks
I think that isn't a good idea. the stats cause the engine to warm faster. They don't impede the draining any at all.
The problem when doing a flush is you have to wait until the engine is warm enough for the stats to open before you can shut down and drain the coolant. It seems to be if the stats were removed you wouldn't have to run the engine very long between flush cycles.
I'll use tap water to flush the system, but I was still unclear about filtered versus distilled water for mixing with the coolant. I ended up calling Valvoline (makes of Zerex) and they recommended distilled water.
I'm going to try and get as much water out of the system as possible after flushing so my 50/50 ratio is as close as possible.
I always use distilled water with the antifreeze BUT as a PERSONAL preference I AVOID RO filtered water.
I have noticed that RO water does some strange things to the metal drain pipes and I am not sure how close the relationship is to the water but better safe than sorry.
Just my way
HTH
YMMV
Melbo
I think someone is smoking something funny-distilled water is 100% with no minerals-how can that be acidic? If it was virtually all our Navy fleet using steam turbine engines would be in a world of hurt. The nuclear powered ships use their tremendous heat production to distill water from the sea. They in turn use that distilled water in the steam turbines. Distilled water is the most mineral free water you can buy. Even RO can still have some minerals in it. Good Luck, TomC
P.S: I use regular Prestone antifreeze in my Caterpillar 3406C-but with a water filter and check for acidity in the water-using Nacool treatment to counteract the acid. By the way my Cat engine has over 1.2 million on it. Good Luck, TomC
I'm not sure you are right on this one, Tom. Although I do not understand the chemistry too well, distillation does not guaranty Ph neutral water. As I understand it, distilled water is usually slightly acidic (with a Ph reading below 7). Water in general, just happens to be corrosive probably for several different factors. This can vary from sample to sample, but it is pretty much a given. Now, that is not to say we should not try to limit how corrosive it is. Anyone that has a pool or a hot tube knows that they are supposed to be bringing the Ph into a particular range since perfection is rather difficult to accomplish. That range limits, but does not absolutely negate the corrosive effects of the water. However, if you can keep that balance, the system can last for an awfully long time. I suspect it is similar with engines. Do the right thing, and they are likely to last far longer than if you ignore all the various things that attack it; but it will not last for eternity. Newton and Murphy will catch up with it sometime.
Generally, when I see premixed coolant, it claims to use deionized water. I do not know the benefits of that either.
Quote from: belfert on July 22, 2011, 04:59:07 AM
The problem when doing a flush is you have to wait until the engine is warm enough for the stats to open before you can shut down and drain the coolant. It seems to be if the stats were removed you wouldn't have to run the engine very long between flush cycles.
I just flushed my cooling system 2 days ago, which is part of my custom radiator buildup.
I ended up removing the 2 thermostats, and it made flushing MUCH easier. I basically stuck a garden hose into the rad fill port, and unhooked the top rad hose (the one that normally leads to the rad), and let the engine run untill the sediments are out (I drained the initial coolant into a bucket of course).
The only problem is, I believe the back pressure caused by the thermostat is what forces water into the heater loop. Without the stats, no matter what I tried I couldn't get the heater loop to circulate. So I ended up unhooking the 1" heater hose, and stuck a garden hose into it. Hosly smokes does the heater fill up with rust and other crap! Couldn't believe what came out, and how long it took for the water to run clear.
I used the shopvac to blow out all the water out of the engine and heater loop. This is easily done without the thermostats, saves me having to drain the block using the block drain plugs. Overall, I'd highly recommend this procedure to fellow busnuts!
BTW, my little 6V71 doesn't have a "crossover" exhaust pipe, the bus is dual exhaust, this makes the top of the engine very accessible. I don't know if this is the case with other setups.
Quote from: RoyJ on August 06, 2011, 03:01:41 PM
I ended up removing the 2 thermostats, and it made flushing MUCH easier. I basically stuck a garden hose into the rad fill port, and unhooked the top rad hose (the one that normally leads to the rad), and let the engine run untill the sediments are out (I drained the initial coolant into a bucket of course).
This sounds like an interesting idea that I'll probably use. It sure saves on filling and then emptying the system a whole bunch of times. In my case I am trying to get rid of the old green antifreeze before I put in new red extended life coolant. I have already drained over 10 gallons of coolant and I have a bit more to go. I'm not doing this because the system is dirty or anything. I already replaced the coolant four years ago when I replaced the radiator and water pump.
On a related note, my Series 60 service manual says the thermostat housing seals have to be replaced if the thermostat housing is opened up. Do I really have to replace these if I remove the thermostat temporarily?
It looks like to replace these I would need to take the housing with me to get the seals as a special tool is required to install them.
Had a dump truck with a 8v-71 I bought the truck in 84 and just sold it this spring, never had any thing in it but the good old green Preston in it. I changed it about ever 5 to 6 years.