OK, folks, here is a question for all the powertrain experts:
What 400+ HP engine/tranny combination is neither longer nor taller than an 8V92/HTB748 but is also narrower?
Here's my issue: we are pulling the above-mentioned power train out of the bus even as I type. The fit is so tight that three of us have spent two days trying to squeeze it out. That doesn't count the day and a half to first disconnect everything, and then remove the generator (really) to get at the last three cradle bolts.
Getting it back in is going to be just as hard if not harder. And I have always regretted not re-powering the very first time we had the engine rebuilt.
I have the sense that one of the Cummins powerplants coupled to a B500 might work, but this is definitely not my area of expertise.
The current power train is all electronic, and the replacement will have to be likewise. We have 475 HP right now, but I am willing to give up a few ponies for an easier fit, better mileage, and less overheating. At 48,000 pounds, I don't think I can afford to go below 400 though. The replacement would also need either a retarder (preferred) or jakes.
Ideally, we'd find someone who will take our current powertrain in trade, but I definitely want to start with a fresh rebuild and not simply a used motor.
Any suggestions?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Why are you pulling the 8V92?
JC
Quote from: lostagain on June 27, 2011, 11:53:21 AM
Why are you pulling the 8V92?
JC
He has a end plate or accessory drive housing gasket leaking and the only way to fix it is to pull it, separate the engine/trans, and remove the housing from the engine, fix the gasket and put back together!
;D BK ;D
PS Joel did the exact same job for me on the same exact engine trans combo, but it was on a different German bus! (mine was a Setra while Sean's is a Neoplan!)
These photos will better illustrate the close fit Sean is referencing.
Just to bring it up it is wise to use new fasteners on a rebuild. I know Sean's engine is not as old as most but think of the thermal cycle they go through while stretched everyday. 1980 was 31 years ago. They loose their tinsel strength and you can not torque them. They will tighten to whatever foot pounds but they will not stretch and wont stay tight. The results are leaking gaskets. If you EVER find a leak and for some reason the bolts seem loose don't waste your time just spend a few bucks and buy new bolts. they will pay for them selves in loss of oil or pulling an engine to change a gasket. FWIW
Sean a couple things come to mind. One your buddy Steve had a real fresh 8v92 and teams that came out of his bus. Still fits waiting for a new owner. Its at Johns! Then two are living it up in the Bahamas right now but from the stories I heard, its a good motor and would be a direct replacement. On the other hand there have been a lot of guys repowering the 8v's with a 50 series. Dint know if that motor is bug enough for your bus or not but it is a 4 stroke and can put out the same hp as the 8v's.
Just thought if refresh your mind!
Sean- I know when my Caterpillar 3406B gets to the point that I have to either rebuild it or have to replace it if smog laws ever go into effect in California for RV's (my truck is now registered as a motorhome) I will repower with a Cummins ISL 8.9 liter 450 @ 1250lb/ft torque. This is an RV rating and quite frankly so close to the 8V-92TA's rating, I don't know if you'd feel the difference. If you did, it might be 3-5mph on the hills. BUT-the fuel mileage gain is going to be impressive. And with being able to use the smaller B400 (which is essentially the 3200TRV), you'll also have two overdrives to slow down the engine. Also, the engine will be about 700lbs lighter, and the transmission 250lbs lighter. You'll probably be able to reduce the size of your radiator, but you'll have to add an air to air intercooler. In my optinion the Cummins ISL is the best engine for any bus conversion. You can or not get a hydraulic retarder on the Allison, or you can get a Jake brake on the Cummins. I'd just get the Jake brake. It's about time you get that dinosaur out of there!!
Right now I'm working with Cummins to approve the ISC 8.3 liter at 350hp and 1000lb/ft torque (like a 6V-92TA) for 80,000lb service in city pickup for mainly port service-gives you an idea what Cummins thinks of that engine. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on June 27, 2011, 12:28:10 PM
These photos will better illustrate the close fit Sean is referencing.
Wow!
Sean,
In looking at your pictures I think you might be able to fit a Cummins ISM in there. Couple this with a B500 and you might be okay length wise. The ISM will give you more torque and allow for lower RPMs. With the weight you are pushing the increased displacement would be good.
Brian
Sean, I have the L10 with a 3200sp Allison. The M11 is the same length, not sure of the other Cummins ,ISM,ISL. But I will get an overall length if it will help? I could look and tell you how much longer the B500 is also? I would think the later M11s are in the power range you want.
Brian, Is the ISM the same length as the M11? Tom Y
A 60 series is only 1 inch longer than a ISM the height is the killer on a 60 series 51 inches tall, the ISM has been replaced by the ISX 11.9 if you are going to swap just raise the deck or lower the engine mounts and go with a 60 series and a B500 (34 inches L) I think the 60 series would serve you better than a ISM in 50,000 # bus and don't leave out the Cat engine a 3406 E will move that Neo lol .
Call me if you go with a ISM I have friend that has a new 500 hp he decided not to use in his Prevost he went with a 60 series for fuel reasons when Bill at Cummins told him to expect 5 MPG
good luck
Tom C has a ton of "inside information" because of his work in the trucking industry. He recommends the ISL as a candidate. To me that is a bit small for a 50K vehicle, but if Freightliner is thinking about using them (albeit city service) they must be pretty robust.
If they would work, you can find them in a bunch of motorhomes with the Allison attached.
There are lots of buses that folks have installed the L10/M11/ISM in. Have not really heard anything bad about them in terms of power. Some folks say they are a 500K engine.
As Clifford said, the Series 60 and the big CAT and Cummins are pretty tall and probably not an acceptable choice.
Adding the Charge Air Cooler is not trivial in most buses.
When you consider that Sean does not tow a vehicle, the 50K is not all that much different from than many of us that tow big vehicles.
Random thoughts.
Jim
What I have discovered during my engine swap is that there is not much flexibility in engine location when you are working with short drive shafts (around 12" to 14"). If you want be sure you have no drive line vibration issues you can only get away with about 6 degrees of misalignment between the diff and trans plus the transmission shaft and pinion shaft must be parallel to one another. So you can't cheat on alignment by tilting the transmission up or down to get the alignment within range. The complete engine / trams has to raised or lowered to keep the components parallel. That could make the engine height a determining factor for your coach.
Ken
A couple things about Sean's bus that open up some flexibility in length are:
- It hasn't been measured yet, but at a glance the drive shaft is 30"-36" in length.
- It currently has a large retarder unit that adds about a foot between the output of the 748 transmission and the driveshaft.
So there is some room for negotiating there. If the new engine was equipped with Jakes, then no retarder is needed. And there would seem to be some margin for shortening the drive shaft a little.
Height, now that is quite a different matter. As you can see in the photos, there is nothing to spare on the top without an interior remodel of the bedroom. The bus has a relatively low ride height and the skid plate has taken a fair amount of action getting through driveways and such. So not much room to extend down.
I still stay with the Cummins ISL theory. But-and it sounds like you do-with the extra length, you might be happier with a Cummins ISM that can be turned up to 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. The big difference is you have to use the bigger B500 transmission. With the ISL, the B400 is used which is based on the 3000HS series. In trucks, the 3000HS is rated up to 370hp and 1250lb/ft torque at 80,000lbs. It would be a cheaper and easier conversion then the Cummins ISM. The Cummins ISM will be longer then the 8V-92TA. The Cummins ISL is about the same length as the 8V-92TA. I wouldn't use the Detroit Series 60, no matter how excellent (and I love that engine too) it is-it is just plainly to big and weighs more then the 8V-92TA by about 250lbs. Good Luck, TomC
I delivered a 42 ft S&S job with 3 slides to Phoenix for a trade out from another dealer for a different model (floor plan) back in Feb can't say I was impressed with the 425 ISL pretty gutless to me,the one I brought back had a MaxxForce 10 to me it had a lot more power and a nice flat torque curve with less hP and I know the fuel mileage was better according to the Sliverleaf I got 5.3 on the ISL and 6.6 on the MaxxForce 10 I never been around the Navistar engine before but it impressed me sorta of lol
good luck
Another engine that occurred to me is the Mercedes-Benz 4000 Engine. Up to 450hp and 1650lb/ft torque and weighs just about the same as a 6V-92TA! Good Luck, TomC
I think your turbo is above the 8v92 if it is you have enough room to install a series 60.
As you know I like the series 50, but for your bus and the way you move around you will need all the power of the series and at least a b500 trans. If you make the change the rear will also have to be changed. Some where between 4.10 and 4.60. The only engine to stay away from is the Cat c13. No one seams to like those and the fuel milage is bad.
Thanks, everyone, for the responses. Tom, thanks also for the voice message; sorry, but I was up to my elbows in grease when the phone rang.
Here are some additional thoughts and clarifications:
First off, I am definitely NOT looking to swap my current 8V92 for a different 8V92. Now that it's out, we will do the end-plate gasket repair regardless, as any potential buyer for the engine will want it in proper working order. My engine has 165,000 total lifetime miles on it, and only 35,000 since in-frame overhaul, so I am certainly not willing to trade it for a different 8V with more miles or an unknown history. Trading to a different 8V also does nothing to help with the fit issue.
Next, a Detroit Series 50 or 60 will NOT fit. Yes, our 8V92 has the turbo on top and so the engine/tranny assembly is 51" tall, but only at the very back. My engine bay has a recess at the very back to clear the turbo; that recess sticks up into our wardrobe in the bedroom, and by removing the bottom section of the wardrobe I can open a hatch and access the turbo. However, immediately forward of that recess the engine bay height drops by at least 8". Any powerplant that goes in can be no taller than perhaps 43". As Mike has observed, we can go no lower than the skid rails at the bottom, and right now the oil pans are just a hair above the rails.
While Mike is correct that the drive shaft is about 36" or so, the reality is that there are only a few inches between the front of the tranny (which, on the HTB748, is the output retarder) and the tie rod for the tag axle. So we really can't get much longer than the existing powertrain.
Now that it's out, I measured. We need to keep to around 90" in total length, 43" in total height, and 36" in total width.
Of all the suggestions thus far, I am thinking that the ISL/B400 combination that Tom likes is going to be the best fit. For one, it will fit into the space with no trouble. For another, it will shave nearly half a ton off our overall weight (which will compensate somewhat for the 50HP loss). But most importantly, I would guess that there are complete take-outs available from wrecked coaches. That said, I am not averse to one of the other suggestions, so long as I can find one in the next few days and it fits the space.
So here are my further questions:
1. I have a 4.3 rear end (not subject to change; too much work). Will the ISL/B400 work with this as-is? I note that, for example, Monacos equipped with the ISL had 4.78 rears.
2. Does anyone know of a powertrain that would fit my coach that is available right now? I'm willing to fly out, make the deal, and bring it back in a U-Haul if need be.
I'd like to make a decision no later than tomorrow afternoon. By then, Choo-Choo Express should be mostly done with the 8V92 and the work in the engine bay straightening the bent skids and rails. When they are ready to put us back together, I want to be able to either give the go-ahead, or have a concrete date in the very near future when a different replacement powertrain will be here for installation.
Thanks again.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, I did some checking for you on the ISL 450 my guy at Southern Plains in Houston said do your homework that is a 2011 emission engine and they are giving problems he said if you can find one the ISX 11.9 would be a better choice for you at 48,000 lbs but it still a emission engine unlike Tom he doesn't think much of the ISL pushing that much weight day after day he said expect between 5 and 6 mpg with the Allison and 4.33 gears at your weight.
That is going to be a tough find used with all the parts according to him
good luck
Thanks, Clifford. I don't think I'd be looking at the 2011 model; the ISL 425 has been around since 2007 with the corresponding emission specs. Also, I don't think I am required to install the aftertreatment (can someone confirm this?).
I'm not sure an ISX/B500 is going to fit. I'll need to track down the specs.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, if the ISM will work for you I can get the 500 hp brand new no rebuild 0 miles from my friend for around 18 grand he paid a lot more than that from Cummins
good luck
Sean-at least in California, RV's are exempt from smog laws-as to retrofitting to up grade. Any new coach (like a S&S) will have to come up to current standards though. Like my truck, your bus is exempt-at least in California.
With the 425hp and 1200lb/ft 2007 model and with your 4.30 rear end ratio running the B400 @ 48,000lbs, your startability will be 34%! Freightliner requires 16% for on road and 24% for off road trucks, so you're way over. With the .75 in fifth you should get 1564 @ 60; 1694 @ 65; 1824 @ 70; 1955 @ 75. Then in 6th you should be at 1468 @ 65; 1581 @ 70; 1694 @ 75 (which will work just fine). Whether or not it will pull in sixth isn't important-the transmission will decide that. Just make sure you do have all 6 gears available.
Everyone thinks that 48,000lbs is heavy (and it is for a bus), but our trucks are running with this kind of power. Freightliners ISL Natural Gas has only 320hp and 1000lb/ft torque and we're running them in 80,000lb trucks. Granted they have 6.14 rears and only top out at 65mph, but the driver's love them (mainly because of the Allison 3000HS). There are many costs involve with an engine. And as you get bigger, the costs go up. The 8.9 liter Cummins ISL is a heavy duty medium sized engine with wet cylinder liners. They are just exclusively the engine now for transit buses (at 330hp and 1000lb/ft torque)-but then again you're service and driving habits are no where near the severity of active transit buses. If you do choose a ISL make sure that it has common rail fuel injection-you do not want the old style rotary injection pump (that was very problematic). Good Luck, TomC
The B series Allison transmissions are cut back as to power for longevity. You should stick with the MH series and then if you need to get more ground clearance, you can switch to a shallow oil pan (typically 3 pan depths are offered).
ISL and 3000MH Total Length-72.69" x 27.7" width x 45.9" tall weighing 2162lb for the engine & trans.
ISM and 4000MH Total Length-81.94" x 36" with x 50.4" tall weighing 3001lbs for the engine & trans.
To bad the Mercedes 6V-2000 series isn't available in this country-would be a great engine for your bus and fit quite nicely.
The only other engines that come to mind are the International DTA530 (which I wouldn't suggest in a recent engine-mucho problemos), or the Caterpillar C9. Both good engines, but I would still stick with the Cummins ISL. Good Luck, TomC
Another engine to consider is the 2004 certified Caterpillar C9 (don't get any Caterpillar that is 2007 certified-just a bunch of problems). Even though you have to run their special muffler with catalytic converter, they were not any problems with them.
C9 and 3000MH Total Length-77.29" x 35.2" width x 42.1" tall weighing 2035lbs for the engine and transmission.
I have at least one customer using this engine with 350hp and 1150lb/ft torque with a 10spd running 80,000lbs between Portland, Or and Seattle, Wa and very happy with it. The C9 was also made in a 425hp and 1200lb/ft motorhome version. I can't quite remember if it has a Jake brake capable-but you have enough length to find one with a Allison retarder. Might be a good choice since it seems to be a bit shorter of an engine and like the ISL is a wet cylinder engine. Good Luck, TomC
I've been on the net all morning (well, other than the time I spent turning the crank on the 8V while the mechanic watched the alignment marks; I have great compression so my workout for the day is in the bag). I simply can not find physical dimensions on the Cummins engines.
Can anyone give me the dimensions of the ISL and ISM engines? Based on what Tom posted about combined dimensions, it's looking like the ISM simply will not fit (but that's a great offer on one, Clifford).
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Thought I would give you 1st shot another guy here is wanting it bad so I am going to let it go now
good luck
I'll throw my two bits in here because I have a good idea about how Sean uses his coach after reading his blog for years, and also that I have a pre EGR ISM and 4560 in my coach. I agree with Tom's recomendations and believe you would be satisfied with the ISL. Perfect world, a pre EGR engine would be preferable but that may not be possible. All this being said, the conversion is still a tremendous undertaking, simply putting it in the bus is the easy part. Harnesses and wiring are major, as is the configuring of your CAC and piping. A radiator overhaul or replacement would also be optimal. Unlike the S60, the Cummins has both intake manifold and turbo on the same side (your radiator side), so it gets pretty crowded on that side what with exhaust, coolant, and CAC piping all living at the same place. I assume you would be using a stacked CAC rather than a remote mount which would require another cooling fan set up. I don't think your gearing would be any problem at all. I have a 3:36 diff and simply run in 5th for the speed I like (62 mph, producing just under 1,300 rpm). Our winter trip was over 8,000 miles over all kinds of terrain and it produced 8.8 mpg off the Silverleaf. Whichever engine will require a coach oil pan, the S60 and ISM pans are upward of 2K for a new one. I lucked out and found a used one for 400.00.
Anyway, IMHO I think you would be happy with an ISL, and more happy with the ISM if it works out. From a dollars and sense standpoint, it of course makes more sense to get the 8V92 problems worked out, putting 30+K in old buses that are going down in value so quickly is insane. But then again, our whole hobby is insane, LOL.
Clifford, thanks for keeping me in mind.
Mark, thanks for the confirmation of Tom's numbers. I have a line on a new 3000 MH made for an ISL 425, so if I can just find an ISL 425 with the correct pan (I'd assume, since this is a motorhome engine, that most would have the low profile pan anyway) I'd be in good shape. Of course, the price would have to be right.
Yes, I would stack the CAC on top of the existing radiators. They're overkill for the ISL anyway, but no percentage in changing them out. I might re-pipe to use just one of them instead of both, and see how well it does.
You are right, of course, about the investment. This would be, for us, as much about improving mileage and driveability as it would making for an easier fit, and I'd be willing to spend a little for it.
Anybody know what I could get for the 475-horse 8V92TA (DDEC-II) and HTB748 if I sold them outright?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, speaking with Bill again you mention 2005 he said don't buy a ISL manufactured between Oct 2005 and April of 2006 lot's of problems
.As for selling your engine and tranny maybe 3500.00 the 748 is not a highly sought after transmission core price is about all that will bring not trying to rain on your parade here just cold hard facts when people tell you how much money things are worth I say sold to them lol
good luck
Sean,
Been following this thread with great interest but no knowledge to add to it so I've just been lurking.
You ask what you could get for a 475HP 8V92 DDEC & 748.
Not long ago I asked the same question about my 475HP 8V92 DDEC & 754 and really got no good # to put on it.
I did ask my local DD Dealer his opinion and he said that they had recently pulled a rebuilt 8V92 out of an abandoned MC9 (abandoned for the cost of the rebuild) and sold the engine to a mining company for $2500, sold the transmission used to an individual for $500 and sold the body to a local scrap yard for $1500.
He said he hated letting go of it at those low prices but that is what he was told to do by "corporate" who is actually who handled the sale of the engine to the mining company and he handled the rest!
I do know that Bob Glines has a local operator in Evansville who might be interested in it.
;D BK ;D
PS you can call me or Bob and get Shawn's #.
Hello : FYI My Cummins L10 with b400R is @ 320 hp. The b400r is only rated for 300hp the 500 is about 500 .
My engine combo is 84.25 inches long.
I changed the rear end to a 4.625 but yours with 500 hp should be fine in my opinnion..
An m11 or Ism with a b500 would be longer by about 5 inches
FWIW regards mike
We have a phone call to a wrecking yard we deal with seeing if they have or know of a low mile 2007 certified ISL 425 out of a wrecked MH. Will let you know. Good Luck, TomC
Sean, Measured the width on my L10. The drivers side is 18-18.5 inches off center on the turbo side, 16" or so on the other. Not sure how wide yours is. But the turbo does hang out there.
OK, here is the latest update:
I spent most of the day working on what will or will not fit, who has one, and how much it will cost.
Bottom line, we could fit an ISL/3000MH for sure and an ISM/4000MH *maybe* with some effort. No one has stepped forward to offer me a straight across trade :) so I would have to spend some cash.
The best I found was $25k for the ISM/4000 and $18k for the ISL/3000, and that's with my core. On top of that, I would be looking at changing out starters and alternators for my 24v coach, finding a place for the CAC, and spending hours mapping out wiring harnesses to make the conversion. By contrast, stuffing the 8V back in, as tight as it is, will cost me maybe an extra 6 hours or so over something a bit less squeaky, or, IOTW, maybe $400 at this shop. Fixing the original problem (leaking end-plate gasket) is looking to be around $600 plus the gaskets, and we're going to rebuild the 50DN and replace the Bendix gear and brushes on the starter as a precaution. I might throw a rebuilt compressor on there while it's out.
After looking at time and costs, we have decided to simply put the 8V92 back into the bus. Thanks much to everyone who answered, both on and off the board; lots of good information which all fed back into our decision process.
We are going to take a separate look at the tranny, and I will start a different thread for that discussion.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
A word of advice Sean buy the end plate gasket from DD the aftermarket end plate gaskets will not last be sure and replace the copper washers on the bellhousing and use no silicone only the aviation sealant per DD
good luck
Sean,
i finally got back on the board and read the posts here with interest, but couldn't figure out why you would throw away or trade out a perfectly good 8v92 that just leaked, since i just fixed mine with the same or similar issue. I'm pleased you reached somewhat the same conclusion i did. Makes me feel better about my fix. i hope you are as satisfied with your decision as i am so far with mine. Good luck to you and Louis, and safe travels.
Please remember we are in the rockies until October if you swing this way on your way back from the disasters, and the rebuild.
Good $$ decision, Sean. Good decision to rebuild the alt. too. I would also pull the air box covers and give your cylinder kits a careful inspection while it's out of there.
Considering my 1980 8V-92TA in my Kenworth went 500,000 miles before in frame overhaul, Sean has a lot of life left in that engine. Granted it is hard to find people to work on it, and there are other engines that will give better fuel mileage. But-this kind of swap should have been done at the beginning of their full timing. With full inspection, the 8V-92TA should last for the duration of their full timing. Good Luck, TomC
I'm quite surprised that you are using the 4.3 rear end with a direct drive transmission. This gives you a 2100rpm top speed of about 60mph, and a comfortable cruise of 55mph at 1911rpm. It would be great to install a B500 at this time to take advantage of the .74 overdrive to bring your cruise speed to 1543 at 60 and 1671 at 65, etc. Probably couldn't use sixth (.64). Since you have an electronic engine now with ATEC, you should be able to bolt up the B500 with not much problem. Don Fairchild has this setup and pulling his big GMC pickup, he gets around 8mpg. GoodLuck, TomC
Quote from: luvrbus on June 28, 2011, 05:30:48 PM
A word of advice Sean buy the end plate gasket from DD the aftermarket end plate gaskets will not last be sure and replace the copper washers on the bellhousing and use no silicone only the aviation sealant per DD
Thanks, Clifford. I am really leaving this part of the project to the very capable Joel here at Choo-Choo Express. This is not his first rodeo and I think he's done more end plate gaskets than he can probably remember. But I will try to find an appropriate way to make these suggestions. So far I am impressed with his skill, knowledge, and thoroughness.
I was pretty involved in helping get the darned thing out, because the weirdness of my bus makes for a lot of head scratching. But now that the motor is on a stand in their shop, it's really their home turf, and I am trying to stay out of their hair. You know the old saying about shop rates, where the rate goes up if you watch, and it goes up more if you help. In the meantime I have been busying myself by working on the generator; we had to take it out to get to the last three cradle bolts, and as long as it is out I'm working on the hard-to-reach stuff on the back side.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean,
What MPG did the 8V92 give you? What do you think a Cummins ISL/M would do for MPG?
Thanks,
John