Is the bolt head in this photo Torx Plus? I bought a set of external Torx sockets and they don't fit.
More importantly, any chances any retailer sells the external Torx Plus sockets? I tried Sears already. I can order online, but then I have to wait and what if I get the wrong size?
Will a 12 point socket fit them?
Brian, I believe those are just 12 point heads. Very common on aircraft particularly turbine engines. Some call them high strength bolts! I could be wrong because the world has passed Me by,LOL. John L
Wouldn't a 12 point head have flat sides instead of curved sides between the points? I did go out and try a few 12 point wrenches on them. 5/16" 12 point is the smallest I have and it appeared to work, but seemed slightly loose. I don't have a 7mm metric to try.
I'm really worried about snapping the bolts off. It seems like either the bolt could snap or the head could strip with the amount of torque required to get these loose.
Those are 12 point socket grade 8 bolts good luck on finding 12 points sockets I got lucky and found a set at HD their Husky brand SnapOn charges 22 bucks for one socket all the China made stuff will be 6 point fwiw.DD has plenty of those type bolts 60 series and the 2 strokes so better buy you set if you plan on working on it check you valve cover. I don't think those are 5/16 heads here is the parts number for those bolts and they are calling a 7/16 head PN 23507182
good luck
Brian I concure with junkman. Looks like standard 12 point bolt head. PB blaster, Mouse milk, ant good penetrating oil would help that situation. As far as the wrench fit, I have seen corrosion reduce bolt heads to the point a wrench won't ever fit correctly again.
Brice
I'm pretty certain they are 5/16" heads or smaller. My 5/16" combination wrench with 12 point end fits, but it seems slightly loose. I don't have any 12 point sockets as I have never needed them before. I actually hate that most combination wrenches are now 12 point. !2 point seems to make it easier to round off nuts and bolt heads.
I sprayed the bolts down with PB Blaster this evening and we'll see what happens. I'm seriously considering having a mobile mechanic come out to remove the bolts. A mechanic will be able to fix things if the bolts don't come out cleanly. A mechanic isn't cheap, but a new oil cooler or oil filter adapter isn't cheap if I screw it up either.
I have those same bolts on my motorcycle and I also thought they were torx. They were however ,as stated above, 12 point sockets. good luck.
They're also called Ferry screws, if anyone trying to search replacements.
Brian,
I have had problems with the socket getting a good grip on the 12 point bolt. To max the engagement I ground of the recessed surface of the socket. The part that allows the socket to slip on easily. That gave me enough bite to grip the bolt firmly. You cannot strip a grade eight bolt.
I think the 12 point is stronger than a six if you have a 12 point wrench on a 12 point bolt in any grade.
Quote from: JohnEd on June 27, 2011, 03:57:23 AM
. . .I have had problems with the socket getting a good grip on the 12 point bolt. To max the engagement I ground of the recessed surface of the socket. The part that allows the socket to slip on easily. . . .
Good tip.
Also, some brands of sockets have a much sharper "corners" which give a better grip.
I have an older set of Allen brand, which give a great grip for 12-point work. Mac brand also was great for 12-point work.
Ted
I contacted a local mobile mechanic to see if they could come by and remove these bolts for me. There answer was absolutely not unless I got the vehicle to their shop. They have better equipment there in case they break a bolt or something. I don't have too much of an issue with a couple hundred bucks for a mobile mechanic, but I really don't want to put everything back together and then pay them to drain the coolant and all that again.
I'm not sure what I want to do. I really don't like the tiny heads on those bolts. I'm afraid I could easily round off the head on one or more of the bolts. I would much rather they were nice hex heads. If a mobile mechanic won't do it, do I really want to tackle this myself? I did spray down the bolts with PB Blaster last night.
You get the right socket they will not round off and I never twisted or broke a bolt on 1
good luck
Brian, if the bolts are threaded into a casting before trying to loosen pound the heads firmly with a hammer. Pounding does not mean as hard as You can swing with a 10 pound hammer! A number of solid raps will greatly enhance the possibility of the bolts coming loose with out mishap. John L
Brian if the bolts do twist off -- which seems unlikely -- there are some welders who can remove the broken part by placing a washer and then welding a "cap" or other piece to get the bolt out.
Midwest portable farm repair welders have done some "AMAZING" things for me
HTH
Melbo
Brian,
As I told you on the phone I thought they were gonna be a 12 point.\
Also I believe they will come out fine. Especially if you do as suggested and smack them on the top of the head with a hammer.
Worst case scenario if you do round or break one just take the rest off, remove the cooler and use vise grips to get the broken one out!
BTDT;
Brian has to have ulcers the size of golf ball he always worries that the worst is going to happen to him no matter what he is doing or working on LOL depressing to me as I try if it doesn't work trying something else
good luck
Brian,You are not at risk in any way. Smack it, grind on the socket and take it off. Use an impact for added insurance if you can get one in there.
John
I'm not a mechanic so I don't have the depth of experience you guys do. I put a 5/16" combination wrench on the bolts and it seemed loose enough that it could strip easily.
I have had experience with snapping off a 9/16" U bolt recently with a breaker bar. In that case it didn't matter as I replacing the U bolt anyhow.
I am surprised that no one has suggested putting some heat to it before removing.
Also I am surprised that some are saying that a 12 point socket is hard to find. I have a cheap craftsman set that has 1/4" drive 3/8" drive and 1/2" drive 12 points in it. They are very common.
go to local pawn shop.
I have purchased many a sockets for cheap like .25 cents
Might be worth a trip.
Lonnie
!2 points sockets are not common anymore even at Sears 6 points are easier and cheaper to manufacture,I paid 80 bucks for a set of SK 12 points sockets only 1/4 inch drive the speed handle from Snapon for the 1/4 was over 30 bucks when it comes to tools you get what you pay for Sears stuff is ok but I wouldn't want to make living with it and the warranty has gone to pot now I have a set of the universal 3/8 drive sockets that the pins are wore out 3 stores told me to forget about it.
If want Craftman tools Fastenal has better prices than Sears they are even selling Craftman at ACE Hardware now
good luck
Im not sure why you think there not common. Theres over 2000 results for them on ebay. Most all of them are new. Heck my wifes CHINA tool set for the house has them in it.
I will agree that craftsman tools are junk tho.
Check it out you see most are metric sockets in 12 point the Snap On guy just left here and said Snap On 12 points are getting hard to get he checked his warehouse in Phoenix nothing except metric
good luck
Nobody suggested putting heat on it probably due to the liability at hand since he already posted he had oil leaks. Next thing you know, he will follow the advice of a poster to use the heat method, then the oil starts a fire, bus burns up (or down) and poster gets sued!
Hey stranger things have happened!
Quote from: luvrbus on June 27, 2011, 10:54:53 AM
Check it out you see most are metric sockets in 12 point the Snap On guy just left here and said Snap On 12 points are getting hard to get he checked his warehouse in Phoenix nothing except metric
good luck
One thing in his favor is a 8MM wrench is close enough to 5/16 that they can used as the same. Like 3/4 and 19MM
.
Brice
Not only is the risk of fire there on the oil leak, but IIRC the bolts go thru the housing which is several inches thick just to get to the block area where the heat really needs to be.
And I would be willing to bet that there is a better fitting socket somewhere even if it is an oddball off size or metric.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on June 27, 2011, 10:54:53 AM
Check it out you see most are metric sockets in 12 point the Snap On guy just left here and said Snap On 12 points are getting hard to get he checked his warehouse in Phoenix nothing except metric
good luck
Just shy of halve on ebay are standard. My point is that its not hard to find them. Dont just check with your snap on guy and make the assumption they are hard to get because he dont have them.
Quote from: Ace on June 27, 2011, 10:57:34 AM
Nobody suggested putting heat on it probably due to the liability at hand since he already posted he had oil leaks. Next thing you know, he will follow the advice of a poster to use the heat method, then the oil starts a fire, bus burns up (or down) and poster gets sued!
Hey stranger things have happened!
Seriously? Getting sued over a post on a forum?
Do it your way Eric if want junk by junk makes no difference to me,if he has a 5/16 head on the bolt it will take a 1/4 drive
Quote from: belfert on June 26, 2011, 08:53:43 AM
Is the bolt head in this photo Torx Plus? I bought a set of external Torx sockets and they don't fit.
More importantly, any chances any retailer sells the external Torx Plus sockets? I tried Sears already. I can order online, but then I have to wait and what if I get the wrong size?
where is the oil at in this pic? No where near where heat should be applied. Like BK said heating the housing up isnt a option but heating the bolt up will make a huge difference. The way it sounds he hasnt even tried to take them out yet to see if they are even going to come out hard.
Quote from: luvrbus on June 28, 2011, 07:24:03 AM
Do it your way Eric if want junk by junk makes no difference to me
whats that suppost to mean?
FWIW I have been working on a rusty old van stripping parts for mine. It's a VW so it has some 12 point stuff the 8 mm was a pain and didn't fit with SAE.
I went to my local guy, 5$ set me right, decent quality.
Also I had some rusty degraded heads that I could not get vice grips on, I could get a grinder in there, cut a slot for a screwdriver, the vibration and heat of the grinding seemed to break them loose, stuck a screwdriver in there and they were loose.
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on June 27, 2011, 07:20:44 AM
I believe they will come out fine. Especially if you do as suggested and smack them on the top of the head with a hammer.
Worst case scenario if you do round or break one just take the rest off, remove the cooler and use vise grips to get the broken one out!
BTDT;
I agree! Git er done! ;)
I'm back. I managed to get all the bolts loose by rapping on them with a hammer and using my ratchet. I bought a 5/16" 12 point socket on clearance for 88 cents at Lowes. I ground the end down a little bit as suggested by JohnEd. (Lowes is switching from USA made to Taiwan made sockets. Can't we make anything here in the USA?)
I'm not a mechanic by trade or otherwise. I don't know all the tips and tricks. I've saved a lot of money doing my own work, but I have also screwed up things that cost a lot of money to fix. One time, I had to have a vehicle towed just from doing an oil change. I replaced the springs on a trailer a few weeks back and I managed to snap off a 9/16" U bolt. I was replacing the U bolt, but if I can snap a 9/16" bolt I could easily snap a much smaller bolt.
SnapOn made the USA made tools for Lowes I understand some Lowes are still going to carry both.
Sears is doing the same thing their tool dept is full of China made stuff now along with the American made tools if they don't sell the cheaper tools home owners just buy from Northern Tool or Harbor Freight don't blame the stores lol
hey Belfert don't sweat it we have all broken bolts once or a thousand. The best tip I know of is
#1. always use an impact driver if you can...
#2 tip if you can't use an impact mimic the impact driver with short tugs/hits with a hammer, the idea behind the impact is it doesn't stretch the metal, it is the long hard pull that usually shears a bolt.
#3 use a quality penetrating oil (3in1 makes a very good silicone one that I have been using for awhile)
#4 be nice and as soon as you have movement work it back and forth n to help clear the threads..I sometimes have to screw things 1" back in, re apply lube then try again.
#5. Swear a lot, real huge ones, occasionally at the top of your lungs.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 03, 2011, 02:45:04 PM
SnapOn made the USA made tools for Lowes I understand some Lowes are still going to carry both.
I don't know what my local Lowes is doing. The socket section was almost completely empty with a few of the new Taiwanese sockets that have the colored bands at the base. I found an end cap full of the old style USA made sockets on clearance and luckily found the right one.
Kobalt tools are/were made by Danaher. This is the same company that makes Matco and Craftsman.
All my sockets and wrench are made in the USA. I can't believe how expensive sockets, ratchets, and wrenches are getting. Even some of the Taiwanese stuff is out of sight!
Quote from: belfert on July 03, 2011, 04:35:38 PM
Quote from: luvrbus on July 03, 2011, 02:45:04 PM
SnapOn made the USA made tools for Lowes I understand some Lowes are still going to carry both.
All my sockets and wrench are made in the USA. I can't believe how expensive sockets, ratchets, and wrenches are getting. Even some of the Taiwanese stuff is out of sight!
This is the same old story, Brian. First a "big guy" comes on the scene and undercuts the normal prices. The smaller companies go under or start making something else. This leaves the entire market to one guy or a smaller group that can be more easily coordinated by unscrupulous gougers and opportunists. Remember that great lie: "and with increased production we can pass the savings on to the consumer"(confuseder/gougeee).
John
John
Quote from: JohnEd on July 04, 2011, 08:43:30 AM
Quote from: belfert on July 03, 2011, 04:35:38 PM
Quote from: luvrbus on July 03, 2011, 02:45:04 PM
SnapOn made the USA made tools for Lowes I understand some Lowes are still going to carry both.
All my sockets and wrench are made in the USA. I can't believe how expensive sockets, ratchets, and wrenches are getting. Even some of the Taiwanese stuff is out of sight!
This is the same old story, Brian. First a "big guy" comes on the scene and undercuts the normal prices. The smaller companies go under or start making something else. This leaves the entire market to one guy or a smaller group that can be more easily coordinated by unscrupulous gougers and opportunists. Remember that great lie: "and with increased production we can pass the savings on to the consumer"(confuseder/gougeee).
John
John
Yeah I 've been noticing that the big stores are getting nasty re prices and stock. It has been a cycle for me going back to the 70's. When I was a kid there was just one big hardware store in town and tools were $$$$ then as the years went by competitors came along and the pries went down almost right away....then the big box stores either bought out or drove into the ground all the little hardware stores which couldn't compete with their low prices....now as there is no competition in the market place the prices are climbing up again....thanks to the internet I think it will all balance out as there are sites selling stuff at competitive prices, which should be easy to do with low overhead and probably in most case no inventory.
Brian, my Snap/On dealer would replace some of the Kobalt tools same with Lowes they would replace some Snap/On my dealer replaced a racket for me Kobalt brand, I have no idea when the other manufacture came in to play but my Kobalt tools what few I have are Snap/On
good luck
I still have my Dads tools (and always will ;)),Lol! My Craftsman guy keeps after me to turn em in and get new shiny ones ROFLMAO!! Not on your life ;)
I don't think it all has to do with big box stores. My Craftsman tools are at most 10 years old. Home Depot, Lowes, and the rest were all pretty well established by then. It seems like it would cost 50% more today to replace my tools than I paid for them.
Some of the increase can be blamed on the cost of steel and other metals. I noticed that Kobalt tools from Lowes are as expensive or more expensive then Craftsman.
Stuff should "seem" more expensive to almost all of us. The wages of the middle class have stagnated since 1981. You are currently earning the purchasing equivalent of what you made in 1970. One of the big reasons you might feel you have made progress is that your spouse works. In 1980 working Moms numbered 30% or some such number. Today that percentage has gone to over 90%. And still the household is earning less.
Try this on. If you could recoup ALL you income tax.....pay zero....would you be better off than your father? The answer for almost all is "not only no but hell no". Soooooo, is the answer "cut the taxes" so I will be better off? Barnum and Bailey were wrong. You can fool most of the people most of the time and that is a majority and with that you can run a country.
Buses aren't getting cheaper because our purchasing power has gone up. Its because this class of vehicle is so expensive to operate fewer people can even contemplate owning one. Fewer buses are on the road. The market is in glut. For some of us this is fortuitous. For others...not so much. I can still afford one but just barely. If my med expense goes up or we vets are called upon to give up more of our meager pensions to share the sacrifice, I will certainly be out of this loop. I read today that the average corp exec's salary has gone up to 10.8 Million Dollars....average. When is this gonna start trick'ln down? I used to know and associate with bidness owners but now they circulate in circles that are beyond even my imagination.
Luvrbus commented in a thread about a newly acquired but that the price seemed good but he, Clifford, thought the prices of buses would drop a lot more in the near future. I agree in the extreme. That isn't the reason I am putting in a parking pad, however.
John, ever looking for the bargain.