I've spent the day researching and hunting for six new wheels and tires for our 4106. We're not leaving Yuma until we find some new shoes for our bus - one of the inner rears is shredded, and the rest aren't in much better shape. The wheels are ugly steel split rims that have see much better days, and without a doubt everything needs to be replaced.
So unlike most, we are starting from scratch with a blank slate and need six of everything.
I've heard the recommendation from RJ and other 4106 owners that seeking out 11R24.5 sized wheels and tires with a low revolutions per mile is a very worthwhile thing, and in particular RJ recommends:
"Bridgestone Tire model M726EL, size 11R24.5, load range G, Part Number 186181, 75 mph speed rated, 470 revs/mile - PERFECT for the drive axle on your 4106 with the V-730. Tallest tire I've been able to find in my research."
For aesthetics and weight reasons, I think it makes sense to go with aluminum wheels - at least for the outer four.
Having never bought truck wheels or tires before, I've called around to several local shops to get quotes for getting us on the road. I'm posting my notes here so that you more experienced nuts can point out whether or not these quotes and recommendations seem reasonable:
Ed Whitehead Tires:
Still searching for used aluminum wheel - waiting for a call back from their other shops.
Steel wheels - refurbished: $76.57/ea
"24.5's hard to come across lately."
Recommends a Dynatrac (Dynatrac PF440 - 14ply) all-position tire - $392.68/ea (mounted) -
Total for tires: $2356. Wheels tbd.
====
Franklin Tires:
Referred me to "Red Barn Tires" for commercial tires like I need.
They came back with a total "out the door" quote of $5097 for wheels and tires, including mounting, lug nuts, and balancing the steering tires.
Recommendation - Firestone 16 Ply Tire - $427.51/tire + $41.51 excise tax.
Steel Wheel (inner) - $50/each - used.
Aluminum outer wheels: $353.96 - Matte aluminum. Or I could pay $391.95 - Polished.
Bill at Red Barn noted that if I had needed hub piloted wheels, they would be $100/ea cheaper.
====
Purcell Tire:
Front polished aluminum - $370/ea
Rear polished aluminum - $400/ea - costs more because it required more polishing.
Steel wheels - $110/ea
He says the tire RJ recommends is a drive tire, and not ideal for all position use.
He recommends an all position Goodyear 661 - Highway tread 16ply. $557/ea per tire.
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I am going to try seeking out wrecking yards to call about finding used wheels, but I worry that I might not recognize the difference between a good deal and something that is past its useful life. What should I ask for when I call, and look for if I go to check some wheels out?
Where else should I be calling to seek out wheels and tires?
And from a logistical standpoint - how can I best handle transporting the wheels around when I've only got a rental Chevy Cobalt for transport? Will it be too much trouble to try and purchase the wheels and tires separately, and should I just let a shop put together a bundled quote for everything?
Our bus is movable - but with the shredded rear I am thinking that we should absolutely minimize the miles we drive between the RV park we are in now, and the tire shop we pick to install everything.
Any other guidance to help us find great wheels and tires without spending more on rubber than we did on the entire bus would be much appreciated. Hopefully we can get everything ordered first thing Monday, and be road worthy well before the end of the week.
Thanks!
- Chris
Chris: I have 4 aluminum rear wheels, 24.5 diameter that I took off my Volvo 770 unfortunately I doubt if they are hub centered and they are in Mn, but will check to make sure. A bus nut could have them for not a lot of money.
Chuckd
One problem with buying used wheels is they could have the lug nut holes worn enough to be out of round. The biggest problem is that no doubt they have been changed enough times using a big air gun that they have probably been over torqued more than once in their life and could be also be cracked. Hard to see the cracks sometimes until they become major. I just replaced all of my wheels last year when i discovered that at least 2 of them were cracked and the holes on the others were getting bad. Being on a tight budget i thought about getting used, but as you will find out, there are not any really good truck wrecking yards in Yuma. I finally just bought new steel wheels from Purcell and I sleep good at night knowing they are all new. The other thing is that i do not allow anybody else to put my wheels on. I have a 12x1 torque multiplier and a torque wrench and do it myself.
Are your wheels studs long enough to install aluminum wheels ?,the rear is not a problem you can buy longer nuts if running steel on the inside but the front is a different story just hate to see you doing all this shopping then have another problem.
Call American truck parts in Phoenix I know it 200 miles from you but rent a small Uhaul and pickup the tires and wheels they have acres of tires and wheels and you not getting anywhere with your search in Yuma 1-888-396-6943
good luck
Especially with aluminum wheels-because of many of the previously stated reasons, I highly recommend you to get new wheels. Accuride also makes aluminum wheels that look just like the Alcoas, but are typically less $$.
The Bridgestone M726EL is the tallest tire since it has 32/32" tread depth. But-it does make some noise at freeway speed. My Michelin XZE 11R-24.5's don't make any noise. Unless you're planning to go off road, I suggest you stay with the all position steering type tires all around. They're quieter and will get a bit better fuel mileage. My tires have 476rpm-not that much different. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks for the feedback all...
For my own sanity and peace of mind, I'd much prefer going new. We have a enough new challenges to overcome as novice bus nuts to be worrying about having selected failing used wheels & tires.
One reason we favored automatic over manual transmission was to keep our flexibility of going off-road a bit. We have collected quite a group of friends with houses out in the boonies on maintained dirt roads that we want to continue visiting in our travels :) Not to mention, we love going down forest service roads (after walking it of course) to find remote boondocking spots. So tires better suited for that is definitely a plus for us.
Thanks for the lead in Phoenix, luvrbus - that idea could work out well if they have what we need. What about the contact you mentioned previously near you? Is it worthwhile coming up your way with a U-haul?
- Cherie
They rent full size 3/4 ton here should haul 6 tires easy with wheels. I just hauled 4 plus 6 bay doors- 2 rear doors 1 bumper fandrive and other misc parts 400 miles in a 3/4 ton bob
here is JR's number call him and see what he can do for you 1-760-733-4401 and I'll check other tire stores in my area,it is about the same mileage to here as Phoenix and I know you will get a better selection in Phoenix JMO
good luck
I was thinking about tires for the Bus again yesterday, and I started thinking about the failures ive had. While I never drove OTR trucks, and this is my first real Bus, I have driven large vehicles quite a bit. And ove the last almost 40 years of driving, have had a number of tire failures. It dawned on me that most of the failures were Michelins. Most of the failures were cords seperation, one in particular had the tread delaminate (wiped out the rear quarter panel, beat it up pretty good), and a couple flats that shredded.
I know any tire can fail, and once flat from a puncture, any tire will desintegrate. But I do find it odd that so many were Michelins when overall it represents only a fraction of the usual tire brands ive owned and driven on.
Firestone always gets a bad rep, but ive never had trouble with any ive had. Way back they made the 500 and it got a lot of publicity over the recall, but they came back strong. When the Ford Exploder debacle was going on over tire blowouts, Ford did a good job of shirking responsibility and pointing the finger at Firestone, but the truth is, Ford recommended tire pressures far below the tires actual rating. Running under inflated tires at 75 mph in 100F plus heat is a recipe for disaster no matter who made the tire.
The point of this, is that while some like Michelins and have had good luck with them, they are rapidly gaining a reputation of selling greatly overpriced tires they wont stand behind, and in the OTR tires, known for blowing out the sidewall. I know several tire guys that no longer carry Michelin for the very reason they WILL NOT cover them under any circumstance. And if the company your buying from wont stand behind their product, why buy from them, when another company can sell you a tire for half as much. I know that in the big truck tires almost no one stands behind them, so a lot of the above is moot. But if people are seeing higher failure rates with a particular brand, perhaps its a good bet to switch brands.
Quote from: luvrbus on June 25, 2011, 06:51:29 AM
Are your wheels studs long enough to install aluminum wheels ?,the rear is not a problem you can buy longer nuts if running steel on the inside but the front is a different story just hate to see you doing all this shopping then have another problem.
Woah, I knew about the need to change the studs on the rear, and one of the shops quoted $10/stud ($100/side) to do that.
But I hadn't heard that there might be any stud issues on the front. Can other 4106 owners chime in here - is this a potential issue? Are the front studs harder or impossible to change?
Thanks,
- Chris
Quote from: TomC on June 25, 2011, 07:39:45 AM
The Bridgestone M726EL is the tallest tire since it has 32/32" tread depth. But-it does make some noise at freeway speed. My Michelin XZE 11R-24.5's don't make any noise. Unless you're planning to go off road, I suggest you stay with the all position steering type tires all around. They're quieter and will get a bit better fuel mileage. My tires have 476rpm-not that much different. Good Luck, TomC
Are the Bridgestones not suited for use as a steer tire?
Ideally we'd love to get six matched tires, unless there is a really compelling reason to use different steer / drive tires.
How big of a difference will the tread make for going down rather typical dirt roads?
Thoughts?
- Chris
Chris, that guy is not going to change the rear studs for 10 bucks each he is going to use a longer nut on the inner steel wheel and you can buy those for less than 3 bucks each from Ryder Fleet and the tire guy can install those for, the front is always the problem right now with the steels wheels on the front if you don't have 3/4 to 1 inch of thread showing from the outside of the nut the front studs have to be changed and 200 bucks a side is a great price for that job
good luck
Those particular Bridgstone tires are exclusively for drive tire use only. Bridgestone also makes steer tires. Good Luck, TomC
I replaced Michelin xza:"something low profile" with Hankook AH12's on my 4104 with q 6v92 and v730.
was probably the most noticeable change to the driving that i have made.
have put about 3,000 miles or more on them.
uncle Ned
PS they cost about 2500 dollars installed about 1 year ago.
How are you guys able to find stud pilot wheels so easy?
It took me forever to trace down a set of 24.5" Budd wheels around here in Vancouver. Now the hub pilot 24.5" are everywhere, but the question is, can I grind a chamfer around the bolt holes and use them as stud pilot?
Chris -
I suggested that particular Bridgestone tire for two reasons: First - it is the tallest 24.5 tire I could find to help bring your V-730 equipped coach back to OEM specs. Second, you had mentioned talking to Sean about tires, and he commented on the fact he runs a more aggressive drive axle tire on his coach.
Even if you drive on wet grass, the more aggressive tread pattern will often get your coach rolling, whereas all-position or steer tires will simply spin.
TomC mentioned that this tire will be somewhat noisier than an all-position or steer, but me thinks that's a moot point - you're sitting 20 feet ahead of the axle. Probably have more wind noise from the front door and around the mirrors than you'd have tire noise. Might bother somebody trying to take a snooze in the bedroom while you're rolling down the super slab, in which case they should consider it "white noise" to help them sleep!
You'll rot the tires before you wear them out, so get the drive axle tires for the rear, and some close rev/mile steers for the front.
Bite the bullet and have EVERY wheel/tire combination spin balanced, if possible. You'll be glad you did, and so will Cherie! (Stay away from any of the powder balancer products that go inside the tire, especially if you're getting a tire pressure monitoring system!)
With that list of vendors & tires, did they give you the rev/mile specs for the proposed tire they were offering?
A whole lot different than buying tires for your car, eh?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Has anyone tried the Chinese tires? I read where they had an import duty put on them for dumping, so I don't know how they are priced now. I worked 3 years in China, and all the trucks were severely over loaded, so some of them have to be good. ;D
I put 4 Goodyear 164 RTD tires on the back of my 68 5A after i got it. They are a traction tread. When i first got them i would notice them for about the first 40 ft. when taking off, can't tell if they affected my fuel mileage at all but in the first year of having them they saved me from having to get towed out of peoples yards twice when it started raining and the grass got wet. With the auto tranny i was able to creep out without spinning the wheels and tearing up their yards. BTW, the only blow out that i have ever had while driving was a 1 ton van that had Michilens on it. Two of those four tires that i replaced on the bus were Michilens and both of them were cracked all to hell and ready to blow.
I just bought 2 polished Alcoas from Tim Wells Tire Service in Lancaster California. $250 a piece.
They look GREAT.
Tim Wells Tire Service
661-942-3773
Quote from: RJ on June 26, 2011, 12:16:01 AM
Bite the bullet and have EVERY wheel/tire combination spin balanced, if possible. You'll be glad you did, and so will Cherie! (Stay away from any of the powder balancer products that go inside the tire, especially if you're getting a tire pressure monitoring system!)
Any thoughts on the permanently installed Centramatic balancing system? Worthwhile? Gimmick?
http://mrtruck.net/centramatic.htm (http://mrtruck.net/centramatic.htm)
- Chris
Digging through the stack of receipts that came with the bus, I've determined that the tires currently installed have less than 20,000 miles logged on them.
That's the good news.
The bad news... They were installed over 20 years ago! Yikes!!!
- Chris
They had to be installed a long time ago to still have split rims. Do tire shops even work on split rims these days?
I had a seasonal job in the 90s were they had some old equipment used once a year that still had split rims. The mechanics had a special safety cage for dealing with split rims in case they exploded while being worked on.
Quote from: luvrbus on June 25, 2011, 08:53:36 AM
here is JR's number call him and see what he can do for you 1-760-733-4401 and I'll check other tire stores in my area,it is about the same mileage to here as Phoenix and I know you will get a better selection in Phoenix JMO
JR didn't have any 11R24.5 wheels, and told me to call Century Wheel & Rim in Phoenix for the best price around for new wheels.
I just got off the phone with them - they had the highest quote so far for polished Alcoa 11R24.5's.
Fronts: $532.88 // Rear: $641.24
*ouch*
- Chris
Just my $.02 but check for good steel wheels and paint them. No studs to change, no cracking worries, no compression failures and the cost will be less.
Brice
do like brice said and get steel. then stop off at gamblers in Quartzsite and pick up chrome wheel simulators for $50 a pair. lots cheaper that way.
Trying to track down tires and wheels here in Yuma has been a real frustrating adventure.
Most of the shops have come back with stories of tires being backordered, or wheels needing to be ordered from out of state, or various other issues that would keep us here and waiting until at best early next week.
Ed Whitehead tire is the winner at the moment - they claim they will be able to do the job this Thursday, letting us avoid needing to hang around in Yuma for another week.
This is what we have ordered with them:
Toyo M610 11R24.5-G drive tires. They say they are comparable to the Bridgestone 726EL that RJ recommends, and they have a 471 revolutions per mile rating. $422/ea, or $508/ea including taxes, mounting, and "everything".
For the steer tires, we are getting Toyo m127 1R24.5-G tires for $446.36/ea.
And we are going to get brand new steel wheels - $139/ea.
Redburn Tire has RJ's pick Bridgestone M726EL in stock in Phoenix for $519/ea. + $29.39 tax. But they don't have any suitable steering tires in stock anywhere they can get any sooner that next week. They tried to recommend a Firestone 819, until I discovered that the 819 tire is rated for a max speed of 65mph and is intended for school bus use. No good.
Purcell Tire had Goodyear G372A (471 rpm) drive tires in stock. $485 + $29.39 FET. And Goodyear G395A (481 rev/mile) steer tires in stock. $435/ea. But they wouldn't be able to get any wheels until next week.
So the Toyo's and Ed Whitehead it will be, unless some nut here points out any reasons that waiting until next week might be worth it. Are those other options in any way better than the Toyos?
Thanks!
- Chris
Chris, I found you 10-24.5 x 8.25 stud pilot aluminum wheels my neighbor a trucking contractor has them no cracks,the sockets are good, no bead wear with round holes 100 bucks each you pickup little work they will look new
good luck
Get steel wheels. I have Al wheels and hate them. The holes are too small to get your hand through for tire pressure checking and getting to the outside duals air valve is a pain with the special valve stems.
I would gladly trade them for good steel wheels!!
Quote from: luvrbus on June 28, 2011, 09:41:01 AM
Chris, I found you 10-24.5 x 8.25 stud pilot aluminum wheels my neighbor a trucking contractor has them no cracks,the sockets are good, no bead wear with round holes 100 bucks each you pickup little work they will look new
What a great find Clifford, thank you! Once we get out of Yuma and up your way, we might consider upgrading. Unless we decide to listen to the chorus of steel wheel advocates chiming in now...
Hopefully everything will be ready and will go smoothly Thursday, and we'll be able to get out of Yuma soon.
Meanwhile, we've been tackling plumbing and electrical projects getting all the systems brought back into service. For a bus that has barely moved in the past 10-15 years, she is in remarkably good shape.
- Chris
Chris -
Much as I like the look of the aluminum wheels, I'm more of a steel wheel guy, myself.
They make two kinds, one with only two handholds, one with five. The former is a PITA to get to the inner duals to check inflation if not lined up correctly.
Easy to keep looking like new with a rattle can, painter's blue masking tape and some newspaper after a thorough cleaning.
Also easier to spot a loose lugnut if the wheel's white.
KISS principal.
Back when your bus was new, Greyhound used white painted steel wheels with "Greyhound Blue" in the center hub area. You can see it in this pic of their restored Scenicruiser (PD4501-001, btw):
FWIW & HTH. . .
I'm with RJ, nothing looks and works better than white five hole steel wheels.
Quote from: RJ on June 29, 2011, 12:55:18 AM
Back when your bus was new, Greyhound used white painted steel wheels with "Greyhound Blue" in the center hub area. You can see it in this pic of their restored Scenicruiser (PD4501-001, btw):
FWIW & HTH. . .
Looks like the front brake drum is white too?? Any reasoning behind that???
Reading all the pro's and cons of steel vs alloy, im thinking of staying with steel. But am considering painting the wheels an nice aluminum alloy color with a clear coat.
Best of both worlds???
Back when his bus was new was before aluminum wheels lol aluminum would be my choice I ran aluminum on all my trucks and trailers very,very seldom will you see a aluminum wheel with the center tore out very common on a steel wheel.
Aluminum wheels run straighter, lighter ,cooler and more easy to balance than steel and they never wear out they are completely rebuidable even with cracks,socket damage and bent spots and you won't do that with steel there are places across the US that rebuid aluminum wheels cost around 100 bucks for each 24.5 wheel
good look
My vote is for the steel wheels because that's what I have!! Over the road trucks like the aluminum wheels because it eliminates weight giving more payload. But if your choice is the aluminum route I sure wouldn't waste my time with rebuilt or repolished rims when you can buy Alcoa Durabrites. Those rims will not require constant reshining and such. Not sure on the availability of stud piloted versions but you know how to Google.
The Durabrite is over a 400 $ wheel I am still having a hard time with the guy in Yuma charging him a 130.00 for a 80 $ steel wheel and it is not even my money I would have to tell that guy were he could put his wheels
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on June 29, 2011, 06:31:46 PM
I would have to tell that guy were he could put his wheels
Thats gonna hurt, lol
Quote from: luvrbus on June 29, 2011, 06:31:46 PM
I am still having a hard time with the guy in Yuma charging him a 130.00 for a 80 $ steel wheel and it is not even my money
I think, sadly, we're paying the 'Need it this week-ish in Yuma summer price'.
Oh well... sure beats staying in Yuma another 2 weeks waiting for other options. We're getting lots of projects done, but anxious to get on the road and meet luvrbus!!
- Cherie
In Phoenix they have a generic deal called "the camper special". They don't tell you that you should grab your ankles but you must for that much penetration. Snow Birds are never out of season there. I have been dealt with by truly fine people and "bidnessmen" but I have also "escaped" a few of the other type with an agenda. Maybe it's the same everywhere but I think there are concentrations of dirt at various locations across the country. IMHO
John
When I replaced all my 8 steel wheels with 8 new Alcoas on my big rig, I could feel a difference in the ride. It didn't pound quite so bad going over bumps in the road. Even though a bus is tremendously heavy, the unsprung weight of the axle, brakes, wheels and tires will make a difference of keeping the tires on the ground. The heavier the mass, the more reaction there will be-hence a worse ride.
Advantages to Aluminum-Looks good, dissipates heat better, cools faster, is lighter for a better ride.
Disadvantages-Higher cost, needs polishing to keep looking good, will crack if you hit a curb (don't ask how I know this).
Advantage for steel-low cost, easy to paint any color, if you do hit something and bend it-can bent it back with a BFH.
Disadvantage for steel-doesn't cool as quickly as aluminum, heavier so ride is not as good as could be.
Thanks TomC I try to tell people aluminum wheels give a better ride your bus doesn't rattle as bad either they are just better wheels they do away with the road shock
good luck
Never heard the better ride bit before but the decreased unsprung weight is obvious.
I'll still trade my four Al wheels for steel to the first offer!
Gus, Ill take up your offer.
Paul,
I sent a reply to your PM.