2000 60 series XLII dash says check engine next stop . It can be reset on the dash reader and the bus will go. The bus runs even if we dont clear it.
The code is ECM backup battery and it will not shut the bus down even if continued to be reset, according to Prevost.
They also say the fix is a new ECM so I assume somwhere built into the module there is some kind of d/c power source for the memory? Im guessing anybody confirm or corrrect this.
Anyho how much is a new ECM now anybody know?
Is the battery the "keep alive" voltage for volatile memory? You can't solder anything on to a printed circuit board that can't be replaced. Loosing that would mean that you needed to check the codes before shutting down???????
What is that "CRUEL HUMOR" on the part of DD? Doesn't a ECM cost a couple grand? Replace every three years like your watch? This reeks. Who are you really?
John, always aghast at the cost of stuff.
Ecm's on the latter model series 60 engines have a battery back up built into the unit non replaceable you will need a new ECM and have the clock set 3500 exchange from DD last I got from WW Williams for a 14L @ 515 hp that one should be a DDEC IV 12.7 maybe cheaper
good luck
What will be the result of doing nothing but reseting it every time?
There will be no memory of past codes? Is that all?
JohnEd Im not sure could you translate.
I am out of my element. i got some tronics smarts but even those are dated.
There are two kinds of memory. One endures and will stay set(remembering) even after power is removed from the unit. That would be like the disc memory in your computer. The other type is volatile....it erases every time it loses power. Some appliances such as clock radios and especially auto radios will lose their memory if the power or main battery is disconnected. Clock radios used to have a battery in them and its only function was to "keep" the memory protected if you lost power to the radio during the night....alarm times and time and date etc. Clear?
Your DD Dealer said you would be OK to drive the bus with that condition. They didn't say for only 20 miles or 2 days or under 55 MPH. For 3.500 smackers I would put up with the code. Like I said, if the engine throws a code while it is running, you will be able to see the code before you shut down. If the code shuts you down then you will see the code till you shut down power to the ECM. Remember, my first statement on my qualifications was that I had none. :o :P :(
You can verify everything I have said on the board. i will start it off for you...watch. ;D
Good luck and I hope this helped a little.
John
Can anybody post a pic of the ECM module...front and back? A detailed IPB or illustrated parts breakdown would be even better. But the pic or a actual ECM would do the trick. Not a guarantee by any stretch but I made a handsome living for years doing stuff that was said to be impossible. There must be a bunch of these laying around with dead bats as bats are know to not usually last forever and the 60 has been kicking for quite some time.
John
Joe, three summers ago, I had the very same thing happen. The DD tech just reflashed the ECU. It is a known issue. The new program disregards the internal battery. I also had a warranty update >> new MAP sensor and wiring harness.
Thank you everyone.
Someone get JohnEd a couple photos of the ECM I believe he may just show us all how to fix it.
If I have to pull ours I will do it then for, but money will already probably be being spent by that time.
Threw the same question on Deisel Chat.
Trust but verify, LOL, a great quote I like to borrow. Bet many know who coined that term ;D
That is good to know Fred but where does the clock get it's back from if the battery is bypassed it is a computer and has to have a battery to operate ?
Clifford,
Remember when Ace had the problem with his ECU and it turned out to be with the two 12 volt power lines from the bat tray? Interrupting those power lines stopped the ECU and the engine. A back-up battery doesn't actually power the ECU, that power comes from the engine bats. The back-up just powers the memory to preserve error code data between power down periods.
If a DD tech will flash the ROM to eliminate the error code then I would accept that as the fix. $3,500 is a powerful incentive for a "work around". I wouldn't waste time on the back-up bat. Considering those 12 volt lines to the ECU aren't apparently switched and the engine bats are connected at all times. You would probably only use the back-up when you interrupted the engine start bat power and how often does that happen? In the military we called this a "procedural fix" for a hardware failure and that sometimes is all it took to get back up and operating.
John
Ace has a older DDEC John we are talking a IV here,I just would like to know where the clock gets it power if the battery is bypassed.Cummins had a lot of trouble with this when people replaced the factory starter with a rebuild the ECM would die costing big bucks starters and the ECM together lol
good luck
Thanks a bunch again.
Here is what i started at another forum and hoping for some additional answers to get all our options.
http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/diesel_talk/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=4866 (http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/diesel_talk/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=4866)
Detroit has a bulletin to reflash the ECU. The link that Joe provided has "GoneFishin" tell us>>
DDC recommmends a reprogram of the ecm. $500.00 . This is to remove the code from showing up.
He is a respected DDC tech. He also mentions that he hasn't had much luck with the reflash.
My reflash has worked well, however if I had checked into the battery info, I would get a battery holder and the 3V Sony battery!
Here's something I've heard from more than one truck driver. When an older ECM is flashed with the the new software unfortunately that includes the newest possible emissions changes, different timing tables, different smoke control table, different fuel map, etc. That all claim lowered performance and fuel mileage after the reprogram. I have have no way to confirm this, I hope someone on the board may know if it's true or not,
Ken
Ken, the file that was flashed resulted in 1/10 of a gallon increase in fuel milleage. That might be from the addition of the map sensor and new wiring harness?? I have been really happy with my DDEC 4..
I re-program Bosch ECU's and I have many times thought that I should take a peak into the DDEC code. The factory codes are typically conservative. Slap the bus on the dyno and Run-it!!
Hmmmm - Just thinking out load here
But
Could you simply just put a 12volt Nicad rechargable battery close to the "IGNITION POWER LINE" of the ECM -
After you reset the error the first time - This would Keep the ECM alive and prevent future "power on dianostic errors"
The ignitioned powered circuits of the ECM draws fairly litle cuurent.
The heavy current draw is via the twin "battery connects terminals" - that supply the power to the INJECTORS.
You may require diode just before the battery to prevent Backfeeding voltage to any other item on the same circuit.
My guess is (qty 2) 6amp diodes in parallel for a total of 12 amps would work find
( http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062591 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062591))
I been told many times by sharp DDEC guys the EGR ECM is the only one you can flash with out giving problems down the line in the way of performance and is not a given on EGR models I have a copy of the bulletin on flashing.
Not much of anything you can do for a DDEC I now the dealers don't even have the software any longer but still do up grades to the IV on II and the III at a price lol
good luck
You can get it done Clifford. It depebds on WHO you know, not WHAT you know and it is far less than 3500.00
Ace the 3500 was for a new ECM for a 515 hp 14L EGR engine I can get a rebuilt ECM for the non EGR engines for 800 bucks all day long programed ready to go fwiw when I bought that one there was not any on the market or the software and DD knew it
good luck
Zero Clarence so a trip to DD will kill the program so the code is forever gone. 500 bucks not good but not too bad.
Where do you get this "battery holder and 3 volt battery"
Your the third person who mentioned this possibility
I would not even begin to know where to find those components.
JohnEd I was rereading your comments sometimes it takes a while.
If they always get in the habbit of checking the codes at the end of every day that would very cost effective way of keeping what would otherwise be lost great idea I like it. thank you.
Question is if they do that will it stop the code from poping up at the next start up too?
And those of us who don't have electronic coaches are quietly sitting on the sidelines reading this and smiling. :)
We aren't going to change back to mechanical fuel injection. Cats and particulate filters are in place to create better air quality.
Ed, have you ever riden in a 800HP fuel injected car that will still pass your state emissions and do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds?? Electronics is the answer. And just like everything, you have to replace failed sensors. I enjoy my Series 60 over my '90 2 cycle Detroit. More power and more torque. If we could only get the 2 stroke idle... I have had only two issues that have failed on my DDEC Series 60, none have left me stranded, and never have I NOT been able to start the engine.
I drove the bus into the Pacific Detroit and they fixed it under warranty within 2 hours.
Joe, I haven't had "any" issues with the new "tune" I suppose if I start to have some issues I'd purchase a donor ECU as backup.
O/K armed with all this info I called DD Gran Rapids.
Flashing 80 bucks and assured the code will eventually come back prob sooner than later.
Re programing only with help from the factory and there is a possibility the ultra low backup bat voltage will jack with the reprogram resulting in crash and the necessity of a new ECM 500 if successful
New ECM 1600 to 1800
His suggestion live with it. I am going to trust zeroclearence and his experience and risk the 80 bucks on the flash.
Speaking with Cole last night he said the same as your guy in Grand Rapids,he said don't have it reprogrammed it's like rolling dice,since Cole and Pete left the board and Sammy passed away not anyone here really knows how complicated the DDEC system is Jim has lost all his hair trying to figure it out lol I know enough to be dangerous but I am planning on going to a 60 hr class when Cole finds me a place close when he doing a class.
I really just want the manuals,pictures,software and literature that comes with class for free LOL
good luck
Clifford,
Please call me when you have time! I'm interested in that class and the freebies as well! 270-seven zero five-1139
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Joe Camper on June 06, 2011, 07:54:38 PM
JohnEd I was rereading your comments sometimes it takes a while.
If they always get in the habbit of checking the codes at the end of every day that would very cost effective way of keeping what would otherwise be lost great idea I like it. thank you.
Question is if they do that will it stop the code from poping up at the next start up too?
Joe,
My comments were based on intuition and a thin knowledge of auto ECM's. Your Grand Rapids DD rep's advice seems to confirm my non-expert conclusion. "Live with it" and that's for free and you don't mess with that computer. The conservative approach. for me. I have experienced that "I have no idea why it did that and we can't get it back" answer all to often at the Computer Dr. store and I paid dearly to hear that...again. I drew that conclusion and then I read about the Prevost tech saying the same thing....sorta. He said "it won't hurt anything" as I recall. Anything that hurts is bad and vs versa. As I see it, "living" with it entails only ignoring a code about a battery and I can ignore a lot and getting progressively more hard of hearing I can ignore more and more. It is one of the very few things I am getting better at.
The guy that designed this thing KNEW that that bat was going to eventually expire. For that event to cripple the engine or impact the operation of the ECM would have been really stupid as a design feature. Apparently he was that smart. The question is with the "change in operating procedure". If the ECM shows the last code thrown then a glance for the expected "bat" code would suffice. If the computer shows the "first" code thrown, then at shut down, you would need to look for any other codes as you would lose that data at shutdown. n You could verify that by firing it up, get the bat code, and then disconnect the temps sender and cause a auto shut down and see what the code display says....."battery" would mean you need to check at shutdown....otherwise.
Don't concern yourself with me getting a big head....I know I am stupid still. Had fun though.
John
John, the backup battery on a DDEC has to work in the trucking industry if your truck is in a accident the first place law enforcement goes is to the stored data and it better be there kinda like the black box on a airplane they plug in and print all the data out could be a wise choice for bus owners also to keep it working.
I watched a Az tropper pull data info from tour operator here last week in stop and they towed the bus nowhere to hide with a electronic engine they can check your log book against the data in that little box lol and it doesn't lie it has all the history in there
good luck
Clifford, can you ask Cole if he is interested in rebuilding ($$$) my assy drive for my 50DN conversion? Sorry Joe for the thread drift..
The only way I can imagine any law agency hooking up to an ecm would be if there was a very major accident involvind said vehicle. Hard to see they would just do random checks using the ecm against log books.
I can just see it now...
Trucker pulls into chicken coop and is told to pull over to the side."we want to compaee your lig book to your ecm"
If that would be the case then there would be more d.o.t. men that know more thsn the average diesel mechanic. As it is, most coops you can fly right on by.
Again, the ecm would probably only be used in a legal battle similar to black box in a plane and they only read them IF they can find them after a crash!
Happens Ace the State of Wisconsin is big into it now days and growing state by state every day I noticed a ad for DOT people in the Idaho paper they are looking for 2 requires a collage degree.
Swift transportation has people that retrieve all that info from their trucks every time they hit Phoenix they don't care about the engine just the data about the driver and the way the truck has been driven they could care less about any codes that part is for the mechanics,I think it is just a way to stoop around in the trucks myself and fwiw I have saw the officers checking the ABS brakes on the trailers with that little hand held also it is a electronic age we live in now
good luck
Clifford, I am with Bryce on this one. If cole puts on a class I would also go to it.
Don
See what I do for you 2 he is at Ft Hood right now for 6 weeks working his magic on the creme of the crop that being our men and women in uniform I had no idea the military had so many electronic 60 series engines and old 2 strokes
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on June 07, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
John, the backup battery on a DDEC has to work in the trucking industry
nowhere to hide with a electronic engine they can check your log book against the data in that little box lol and it doesn't lie it has all the history in there
good luck
CXlifford,
Wouldn't dream of challenging you on any subject trucking. Or D engines and a host of other topics all of which I am not yet aware of. As conversion "owner operators" are we responsible to keep DOT associated engine data available to any enforcement officer that wants to check our log books? Say, what?
As for lying....I have ferreted out too many crooked defense contractors that postulated that "numbers don't lie", "test data can't be forged" and "computers cannot be manipulated". Admittedly, that circumstance isn't always likely, and this is probably one of them, but I will hang my hat on a homily never again.LOL
And my hat is still off,
John
I don't think any law officer would worry about RV now a commercial bus is a different story never heard of a RV owner keeping a log book or the owner having a physical unless he has CDL's some of the bus owners I have met over the years the physical would do them in lol
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on June 07, 2011, 03:43:35 PM
having a physical unless he has CDL's some of the bus owners I have met over the years the physical would do them in lol
good luck
LOL! Hey you been talking to my Dr? He threatens me every 2 yrs about my weight and then goes on to tell exactly how much I gained this yr, and that yr and that yr and that yr. and on and on and on! Thank goodness I only have to renew my physical every two yrs!
;D BK ;D
I know on the Ice Road Truckers show last year that the trucking company checks the ECM for max speed and average speed. One of the drivers on the show almost got fired because his ECM showed a max speed in the 60s. I recall they wanted the average under 40 MPH I think. I can't imagine averaging under 40 MPH on a 1000 mile trip.
If you ever get a chance to run the Dalton or the Dempster you'll understand ;)
Quote from: niles500 on June 07, 2011, 07:26:41 PM
If you ever get a chance to run the Dalton or the Dempster you'll understand ;)
I understand why you need to average under 40 MPH on that road. I just don't know that I could personally stand to drive under 40 MPH for 1,000 miles.
Clifford, I would love to take the course as well. There might be enough demand just from this group to justify a special session - perhaps at a rally somewhere.
If it take it, will my hair grow back ;D?
Jim
Belfert
It must be a age thing. I now have no trouble traveling at 35 to 40 mph up the Blue ridge parkway and then the Skyline Drive.
Also on my way to Jacks rally I travel down 321 then 301 then 17 to Arcadia. Great trip.\
May take several days but why hurry. Life is to short.
Also means the difference between 3 to 4 mpg and 9 to 10 mpg.
uncle ned
4104 with 6v92 and v730
If you can get hold of an old, not working ECM, take it to your local geek, computer hardware repairman. Depending on the ECM generation, the battery maybe a button cell or the type that plugs into a chip socket and the memory chip plugs into the battery. The repairman may also know how to change the battery without killing your ECM. With all that info you can decide if you want to chance the battery replacement.
Art@the beach
What art said.
John