checked search: remembered awhile back that someone said you could add something to a existing r-12 system that had lost some ref. Our toter home has a r12 system that is cycling. Hate to change over if there is something we can just add. Prob only needs a pound. This is the unit we pull our steam engines with about 4 times a year to shows. Freight Linner Bob
message sent ;D
Bob, I know you are a do-it-yourself kind of guy, but you could have an AC shop top it off with the real stuff and have them check for leaks at the same time. Might just be a loose fitting.
Others will join in with possible replacements - has been discussed many times.
I was reading my AC magazine (not sure why I am on the mailing list) today. They were talking about the fact that R134 is falling out of favor with the OEMs as it is a depleting material as well. The new material is R1234yf. It will be used by some OEMs later this year. So far the cost is not well fixed yet, but they are talking about $1500 per 30 pound container!!! It is an HFO material and just got snap approval.
In the same magazine they talked about the cooling system (not AC) on the GM Volt. In reality there are four cooling systems. The most critical is the battery cooling system. If the radiator can't cool the batteries sufficiently, the system has a heat exchanger in the car AC system. Hugely complex and very costly to service. BTW, the AC compressor is electrically driven. It boggles my simple mind how they manage to make all this work. Sure not my cup of tea.
Jim
Lots of brand names out there, go shopping at your parts store or truck stop.
Comes in cans with a hose to put it in. Make sure you get the R-12 hose, not the R-134 hose.
Lots of butane/propane in the mix, which concerns some folks, and not others.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
If you were in Mexico they would use propane.>>>Dan
I'm sure it is from lack of use. This is the small unit for the cab and it hasn't been run since last fall. It short cycles now. Will ck at truck stop. Thanks for replies guys. I knew I remembered a recent discussion to this situation. Could depend on Living quarters air but would be nice to have both.
got pm : Freeze 12 :on internet 19.95 delivered -12oz direct replacement. Will prob fix problem. This is low capacity system Like car system or separate drivers air system on my bus(small compressor system).
Bob O'Reilly's, Advance, AutoZone, NAPA or any other local parts house (and maybe even Wal-mart) will have Freeze 12 ! And yes it is direct replacement and works great! (I used to have NAPA deliver it to me in UC before we moved!)
;D BK ;D
Just FYI, Freeze-12 is mostly R-134a (aka 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane). It contains a tiny amount of another halogenated fluorocarbon, 1-Chloro-1,1-difluoroethane, which changes slightly the boiling point. However, this latter component is highly inflammable, necessitating additional precautions in transporting and using the material.
For my money, I would just use straight R-134a if you are only adding a small amount compared to total system volume. Cheaper and probably equally effective. If you need an oil charge, just make sure you get the correct polyol ester oil compatible with the older systems.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I agree with Sean, I've added small quantities (some not so small!) of R134 to older R12 systems with no problems.
It is a major pain to completely drain, flush all the oil, add new correct oil and refill the system. Impossible without a good vacumn pump.
My theory is if the different oils cause a failure somewhere then I will do the full thing. There is also an oil compatible with both freons.
Since I am a skeptic I think that R1234yf is just another step, probably by DuPont, to raise the price of freon. Remember when a 16 oz can of R12 was $0.98? The whole thing is an expensive farce.
. :(
Please, spare us the conspiracy theories. Or, at least, take it to Off-Topic, where such arguments belong.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
well there are a few orifaccccce type dealies that r specific to the type of refrigerant.. and so on... it aint rocket science, you can easily assemble your own system if you know what ur doing... and i'm keeping all my stock of r12 for myself... ;D btw.. u can sometimes accidently pick it up at the car swap meets...
Hi Bobby,
R-409A is a direct replacement for R-12. The closest characteristics with only slightly higher psi's.
Only Refrigeration guy's like me use/stock it. You would be supprized at how many R-12 systems we still service..
Mostly medium temp walk in coolers, 15 years+ deli cases, and ice merchandisers that only need to hold zero degrees.
Call your local reefer guy and ask! We usually help all.. :D
Nick-
the 409 blend of r22,etc is around $400 or so for a 30lb can ... me thinks.. some day soon your car refrigerant will be worth more than the whole thing...tnx to our gummunt epa (as in the simpsons movie)
Most of the British colonies, Canada, Aus, NZ, and most of europe are running propane in just about everything, from cars and buses and trains to refrigerators and whole house AC. Its primarily us in this land of the free and home of the brave that are hold outs, shakin in our boots so to speak, rather than showing the rest of the world how to "get er done".
And really, lets all cut to the chase, it is all about money. I mean, they figured out how to sell bottled water and compressed air for Gods sakes. You think their going to give up selling freon without a fight and propaganda? Didnt Thomas Edison try to hype the dangers of AC power when he stood to lose money on his DC ideas?
The problem for us is we have our heads so buried in the sand over safety and profits than instead of doing any real research to work the problem, weve focused on dong the same stupid things and have fallen behind the rest of the world. Everything in life is a risk. 134a is very hazardous, as is R-12, R-22, all the freons. If they arent outright capable of auto ignition, they all convert to deadly toxic gasses in the presence of a flame. And for the hype, I have never found one single verifiable accident related to anything in an air conditioning system, propane or otherwise.
Is it legal to charge our systems with "propane"? It must work.....all those Canadians can't be wrong about anything all at the same time......right? And add to that body all the rest of the U Ro Peens and the vote must surly be in.
I'm serious about the propane question. Before I start asking questions at my AC shop and look stupider than usual.
John
I just read on a can of R12 I have that stuff has propane in it and is flammable lol mine is a can of DuPont R12
good luck
First off, I never believed the BS about the ozone hole and R-12. They never even knew there was a hole until 1979, how they jump on things so fast to blame man is beyond me. NOW Nasa says its most likely influenced by solar wind. The solar wind is lower than its ever been (in our short history of noting it) and the hole is almost closed.
But anyway, I didnt like the whole 134a thing back when it started and was "playing" with propane in the early 90's. Back then you didnt dare tell anyone or they thought you were CRAZY!
But in all honesty, once you get past the flamability issue, its about the best refrigerant. Its natural, non polluting, and for the tree huggers that still believe all the ozone garbage, its ozone safe. Far, far safer chemically, than ANY manufactured refrigerant.
Ive had it in my Jeep for 4 years, never have to add, in fact I keep letting some off because you cannot put enough in to make the sight glass clear. You need way way less than that. If you put in enough to clear the sight glass youll lock up the compressor. and even well under that level it frosts the evaporator.
The issue is the expansion valve, it needs to have the same gas/refrigerant as whats in the system. Theres a way to modify them but I havnt got around to it.
All that said and considered, I do have some fears of it installed in a Bus, simply because of the volume it would take. My MC5 takes 24 pounds of R-12. Even figuring half the weight for propane, thats about 2 gallons. While I have no real fears of losing the gas outside the Bus, an evaporator leak could be quite an issue. I suppose if I pull the evap and check it over well, perhaps have it pressure tested, its probably unlikely to ever create a gross leak.
Ok so how well does the propane cool?
I think i will put it in something around here to see how it works, guess the way to do it is to vac the system and on refill add a bit at a time n check the thermometer as i go along.
Bob,
The guy at ThermoKing pulled the little remaining refrigerant from my OTR system, pulled a vacuum, checked for leaks, etc., and filled it with Freeze 12 about two years ago. It kept me cool during trips to Texas and Florida, and is still going strong. I do exercise the system about every month to keep the seals lubed. You need the certification to buy it. I'm happy with it. Don't forget to wash all the dirt out of the condensors.
Dennis
Quote from: chev49 on June 02, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
Ok so how well does the propane cool?
My understanding is propane is the most efficient refrigerant that can be used in a conventional refrigeration system. Converting a standard refrigerator to propane, the fridge uses something like 25% less energy for the same amount of cooling.
There are other refrigerants, such as CO2 and Ammonia, but they would never work in a conventional system with off the shelf parts. Propane works beautifully in an R-12 system with some fiddling, and in a 134a system it will freeze you out of the car.
CO2 operates at pressures over 1000 psi, and my understanding is it is the, or close to the most efficient refrigerant. It was used a lot in commercial systems until freons became popular, mostly because they didnt have good technology in the 20's and 30's to contain the working pressures. Currently, many car makers in europe are back experimenting with C02, and that is very likely the direction everyone will go. Except the States here, they so want to run something manufactured so they can continue raping us.
Quote from: artvonne on June 03, 2011, 09:04:40 AM
Quote from: chev49 on June 02, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
Ok so how well does the propane cool?
My understanding is propane is the most efficient refrigerant that can be used in a conventional refrigeration system. Converting a standard refrigerator to propane, the fridge uses something like 25% less energy for the same amount of cooling.
Except the States here, they so want to run something manufactured so they can continue raping us.
In the interest of gaining access to superior technology I propose that we look at the "why" and the "fix" for that social condition: The supremes said: 1. Corporations is people. 2. Corporations have the "right" of freedom of speech, just like a people. 3. Money is a form of speech and the rights of people/corporations shall not be infringed. 4. In a contest, it the "common" good or the benefit to the greatest number that holds sway and "greatest" refers to the LOUDEST speaker and that equates to the most moneyed. 5. Success speaks louder than any word....success is judged to be the richest in terms of material wealth...Even some religions look upon accumulation of material wealth as a sign that the Divine smiles approvingly upon you and those adherents follow a profit that advocated selfless charity and eschewed greed and possessions...and their condition of inner conflict is evidenced in their outer behaviors. The "fix" is simple: get the money out of politics. Why is that so difficult to understand or to to appreciate "why" people would want to keep the money in politics.
Hang in there Art. We can improve the quality of our fuel....which is the worst in the industrialized world but the cheapest to manufacturer. We can recover our infrastructure....which is near calamity due to our spiting Civil Servants for working in our collective behalf and "cutting the FAT out of the Gummint budgets" that maintain the infrastructure. Virtually every budgeted item for which we have cut the budget is in shambles and still we call for more of the same FIX. Lets try stuffing them full of cash and just see what happens. Worked for the politicians, didn't it? Just imagine fully funding something. And do it with taxes collected from people that can afford pay taxes. What a concept....that will never work in this country...right? So far it, cutting funding, isn't working to improve the education situation that affects every blessed one of us eventually and our children right about now. Hang in there Art...we are with you. ;)
John on topic
Sorry, John,
You can label that diatribe "on topic" if you want, but any fool can read it and see that the main topic of the statement is not to address the subject of refrigerants. While I respect your right to make any statement you wish here, I would take exception to your insistance that your statement is consistent with the original topic. Related? Certainly. Just my opinion.
Respectfully,
Dennis
Dennis,
I sympathize with your conclusion.....really I do. Art was talking about AC and my question was "can we use propane". Art answered that and added a comment on why we can't use propane and who was behind that Gummint decision. He concluded it was a force associated with the manufacture of refrigerants. My question was his segway. His answer was mine and I continued his thought with an explanation of where the manufacture's got the HP to influence Gummint decisions that directly affect our buses in regard to refrigerant options and our national state of the art in the AC industry. I propose that there is a reason for our not using a material that cannot be patented and isn't approved by regulations.
That you take issue with my premise indicates possibly, to me alone at least, that you sympathize with the manufacturer. You aren't alone in that, if it is the case. Many do. There is a link to the topic through the replys, in my opinion. It may be tenuous, but it is there. To me these links of cause and effect and the corrective actions are obvious. In this case the cause is not a "blue dress" and the corrective action si not to cut the size of Gummint. Regardless of the possible merit of that action.
If you have a problem with what I post you can PM me and we can discuss the issue...or phone. Or you can invite me to go off topic with you and those that care can enjoy or participate. Your post is off topic to the original post concerning Air Conditioning. No sweat though cause it happens to all of us. At this juncture I hope we can leave this forum for further discussion.
I do respect you and your opinion. I respect it on almost everything except on myself. That opinion of yours is none of my business in a public forum. In private, sure. Take this as sincere and modest in tone and content. This is a flat medium and subject to gross misunderstanding. Don't ask how I know that.
Admiringly,
John
John Ed,
No disrespect intended; just a little too cerebral for me. My shortcoming, not yours.
Dennis
Dennis,
Me neither. I still love ya. Hope we can have a beer together one day.
John
Propane works, its cheap, and virtually safe except for the flamable part. 134a is less safe (highly explosive) and highly toxic in a flame, and doesnt cool worth a darn. R-12 works "almost" as well as Propane, but also forms deadly toxic gas (Phosgene) in a flame. I got a good wiff of burned R-12 once and it wasnt funny. My lungs burned for weeks after.
I would run R-12 without question, but not at $900 a tank. Not when a shot of Propane is like $6 worth.
Art,
That is interesting. And we wonder why firemen wear full air supply and the cost of properly equipping a fire station keeps going up. And freon isn't all of it by any stretch. Aircraft seats were found to be so toxic if burned that escape from an airliner was improbable if there was any smoke inhalation whatsoever from cabin fires. I think the firemen knew about that but their safety wasn't enuf to cause action. Some Gummint agency had to "interfere" with the aircraft industry's "rights" to cause them to use less toxic materials in constructing aircraft. I doubt that DeHaveland or Airbus were affected in the least. I'll bet that Al Steel knows what fire safety code their product meets. I wonder when those manufacturing regs took affect and what buses predate those safety considerations. As most everything is stripped out of a bus shell we are not particularly affected. I know that leaving the floor covering in the MCI is popular to maintain level and sound proofing and that stuff is an indestructible rubber type material. It might behoove those that are considering leaving it in to determine whether it is approved. I am sure nobody will rip up their floor over this but when starting out a conversion I think that info might influence the decision. I know I have suggested leaving it in to people and with this new to me information I would no longer have an opinion to share...not without further data. All this probably sounds like lawyer talk or someone that is really really really Green but hopefully just concerned and conservative.
The advice on actions to take in the event of a bus fire are to leave immediately. You have mere seconds to escape. A scant few, at that. This new information only enforces.
Thanks again Art,
John
Quote from: artvonne on June 03, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
... 134a is less safe (highly explosive) ...
Better check your facts, there, Paul. 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane is neither explosive nor inflammable.
Quote
... and highly toxic in a flame, ...
This part is true, but it is also true of most common refrigerant gases, which are nearly universally composed of halogenated hydrocarbons. By contrast, using straight (non-halogenated) hydrocarbons instead presents a more pressing problem, namely that they are inflammable. Note that even most hydrocarbons create toxic byproducts when burned, such as carbon monoxide (CO).
Everything is a trade-off and there is no "perfect" solution. I can find no fault with the decision to avoid highly inflammable gases in vehicular air conditioning systems. Neither can I find fault with the Montreal Protocol or the restrictions that resulted; even still we do not yet pay anything close to the true environmental costs of what we use.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I accidentally burned a hole in hose on a 134 system and the hose started a small fire when it popped the oil and the freon mixed under pressure made the flame look like a torch for about 30 seconds hot enough to melt aluminum,you can make almost anything dangerous with the right ingredients my oldest son a ex seal can build you a bomb with sugar or about anything else they sell at 7/11 lol
good luck
Well, there are degrees of "purfect" and I think Art's points about propane being "purfector" are well made. Not that you are wrong again, Sean. ;D :-*
John
Quote from: luvrbus on June 04, 2011, 09:21:36 AM
I accidentally burned a hole in hose on a 134 system and the hose started a small fire when it popped the oil and the freon mixed under pressure made the flame look like a torch for about 30 seconds ...
This is a good point, Clifford. While R-134a itself is not inflammable, the Polyol Ester Oil that is used as a lubricant in refrigeration systems is, with a flash point of 518°F. Atomized and under pressure it can, indeed, become a torch.
Polyol Ester Oil (sometimes written Polyolester Oil or just POE) is used now in all automotive systems because it is compatible with a wide range of refrigerants including both R-12 and R-134a.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
r-134 added Toter home cool again/Steam Engine in 100 degree weather 90% humidity another subject. Don't you love summer in the midwest. Bob
Quote from: Sean on June 04, 2011, 08:53:57 AM
Better check your facts, there, Paul. 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane is neither explosive nor inflammable.
Read down the page to fire fighting measures, unusual fire and explosion hazards.
While I would never argue 134a is flamable like propane, we can all agree that the industry, with the sale of 134a directly to the public, as well as a complete lack of media interest, have convinced far to many people that 134a in completely benign, when in fact is is quite dangerous and deadly. And while 134a in more ozone friendly, it is very bad from a greenhouse gas standpoint and has been building up in the atmosphere the last 10 years.
While I dont buy into the whole GW and Ozone depletion myths, after all the screaming the last 25 years over the Oone hole and how R-12 was the cause of it all, it is completely hypocritical to see R-12 available anywhere, at any cost. It is equally hypocritical to see 134a being freely sold on the open market, when there are real, true, refrigerants we could all be using that are 100% green. Propane is totally green once you get past that lil flamability issue, and CO2 is only bad from an asphixiation standpoint. Other than that CO2 is completely benign to the environment.
My only fear of Propane in the AC system in the Bus would be a massive leak or rupture in the evaporator area leading to ignition. And I do not believe a leak of that magnitude is likely.
Which does beg the question; has anyone ever witnessed a major evaporator leak in a Bus?
Art,
Thanks.
John
Quote from: artvonne on June 04, 2011, 04:44:56 PM
... Read down the page to fire fighting measures, unusual fire and explosion hazards. ...
"Unusual" means just that. This material is not explosive or inflammable under normal conditions, including anything found in a refrigeration system or on a bus. Under the right conditions, even your breakfast cereal is explosive; that's not what we were discussing in this thread.
Debating the merits, or lack thereof, of U.S. environmental policy, even as it impacts price and availability of common refrigerants, belongs OT -- I could write tomes about it here but I won't. Let's stick here to the facts that actually have relevance to bus conversions. Writing in this forum that R-134a is "explosive" is disingenuous, because it is NOT explosive as that term is understood in safety and firefighting circles. This is just not a risk that someone converting a bus needs to be concerned with. By contrast, using propane presents a very real fire and explosion risk, subjects the coach to additional marking requirements, and restricts it from traveling certain routes. Beyond that, charging a compressor that runs on electricity, yet has not been ignition-protected, with propane would be sheer idiocy.
Additionally, writing that propane is less toxic than refrigerant gas is similarly disingenuous. It's true in a certain sense, but it is like writing that hydrochloric acid is less toxic than cyanide -- true but not relevant, in that consuming either one is likely fatal.
I am not the arbiter of what gets discussed here (clearly). But it is more than a little annoying when what started out as an informative technical thread degenerates into a political rant. It dilutes the value of the technical information because lots of people just stop reading. And it's really a shame if they walk away with incorrect information, such as "R-134a is explosive."
JMO and FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey/BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey/BlogSpot.com)
Boy Howdy...That almost sounds harsh and intolerant. Must be the Flat Medium. Or should I say "mostly level"? I'm so confused....and intimidated, even. ;D ;) ::)
Your Admiring Friend, :-*
John
I started a thread in the OT asking why R12 and Halon (sister chemicals) are still available for sale. I did this hoping to learn why I can sell Halon with no restriction.
Any bets on how many posts it will take before it goes into a political discussion :-[
Jim
Just one more.
I would like to know more about how to use propane in a AC system. Art , you say the biggest problem is the expansion valve, Why? I have a rooftop unit I'm going to play with and it has the capillary tubes. Will that make a difference? What kind of oil is necessary?
Richard
The expansion valve pressures have to match the system pressures. R-12 oil is compatible with R-290. Search online for propane as refigerant, theres a lot to read.
If your roof top unit is R22 (most likely) propane will not work as a drop in replacment with out a large loss in cooling capacity. R12 and propane require a compressor with larger displacment (pumping capacity) than R22.
I have a rooftop unit charged with r12. It frosts up/freezes on occasion. Most people agree that this is because the unit is low on refrigerant. Is there a product available that I can use to top off my AC unit?
The use and efficiency of propane as refrigerant is very useful information, IMHO.
But gasoline itself (the fluid) is not what explodes...it the vapor. Same for propane as well??.(If you notice the smell, leave wherever you are. Don't even pick up the phone, etc. But I believe the additive that provides the "stink" in propane is heavier than the propane itself. (It's how I know my house tank is low...the water heater will start to burn the additive near the tank bottom and smell). But we use propane in bus conversions for a multitude of things. Why can't a bus AC system be retrofitted and made safe for propane? What would it take to do so? If the industry is indeed going to begin phasing out 134A and replacing it with something insanely expensive in the future, why not start the "Bus Conversion Discussion Design" now?
Heck, how do they make dry ice? It's cold, right?
In a perfect world, we could come up with something that didn't rely on a finite resource, or require more battery capacity than is practical. Until then, creativity, engineers, and willingness are all that's necessary for use as a direct replacement for what we use now as a refrigerant. Why not?
I don't know if it is still on the market, but there was an R12 replacement called Freeze 12 that was propane based.
Quote from: TomC on June 24, 2017, 10:55:16 PM
I don't know if it is still on the market, but there was an R12 replacement called Freeze 12 that was propane based.
Thanks Tom. Dad mentioned Freeze12. I just wanted to make sure that it was compatible with the R12 which is still in the system. I'll look around to see if I can find some. Can I add the Freeze 12 to a system already charged with R12?