Hi there,
First time poster, but have been reading for a while now! I could really use some expert advice/opinions.
We've decided to buy our first bus and are down to two possibilities:
Candidate #1 - Price 4,000
1970 MCI-7
Partially converted, has partial shower, bathroom, master bedroom. We're not particularly fond of the layout/flooring so I think we'd take it all out and re-do it. Minimal/no rust, good tires, seemed to be in good condition. It's got an Detroit Diesel 8V71, starts right up and runs good, air systems function properly. Owner states he was told bus has 84,000 original miles, showed me the title and that's what it says... Regardless, has records for $7,000 engine overhaul done less than 3,000 miles ago.
My questions about this one: It has a 10 speed manual transmission, well it's actually a 5 speed with Hi-Low gears. The owner who kind of fell into it was told that the bus came from the factory like that, I've never heard of an MCI with a 10 speed transmission. It shifts and seems to function smooth. Regarding the miles, is there any way to verify the 84,000 miles?
Canidate #2 - 8,000
1980 MCI-9
Current owner believes bus has about 1.7 Million miles and it recently had an overhaul 20K miles ago. It's also a Detroit Diesel 8V71 it has a 3 speed automatic transmission. It is partially converted as well, no plumbing work of any kind, has original bathroom. Has a 6.5KW generator wired up so that it can be started inside, also has two rooftop airconditioners which work and make it ice cold inside. Owner stated the air conditioners were 1,200 each. Needs two rear tires.
Engine is leaking oil at nearly a drop per 2 seconds, seems like a lot but I'm not too sure.
My issues with this one: The leaking engine scares me, I know that these 8V71's usually leak a lot, but this seems like an abnormal amount.
So which do you recommend and why?
Thank you so much!
oh boy...
A 1970 MC7 would have come from the factory with a 4 speed manual.
All 10 speed transmissions shift 5 positions and either range shift after the first 5, or each position is split, depending on which transmission is involved, that's ok. A 10 speed with an 8V71 is a popular upgrade.
1970 was a little early for a coach to be directed to a low mileage life. That sort of extravagant excess started later than this. I'm suspicious. Anyhow, mileage is irrelevant, condition is everything.
Records of an overhaul means what? Bill of service, or detailed as to what exactly was done? Big shop or small shop? Can you call for details?
Th MC7 is more realistically priced, if the engine work proves truthful.
A 1980 MC9 would have a 4 speed automatic. Mileage claims, again, are irrelevant, and could just as likely be 3 million miles.
As for leaking oil, it all depends where the leak is coming from. Something as simple as tightening the rocker covers to something as involved as a main crankshaft seal, it all depends. This is a major price reducer.
$1200 for both roof air conditioners would be the purchase price. Unless someone was paid to install them from scratch, cut holes, run wires, etc.
$8000 is way too much for a MC9 coach of this vintage with issues. Run away, or offer $2000.
And, keep looking, there's lots of good coaches out there at excellent prices.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I vote for candidate 1 due to the mileage. Still, the bus should be evaluated by a qualified busnut.
There are no "$7000" overhauls. There are a lot of "$7K" repairs. I'd want to know what was done to the engine.
The coach has obviously set around and not operated for long periods. This can cause problems with fuel systems and wiring. Shouldn't really be an rust in the coach...although, it may have been used for an airport shuttle or some such where they run and equivelent of millions of miles but don't roll very far.
I'm unaware of factory 10 spd manuals in a bus...but could be. If the shift pattern is flopped over, shifting from right to left, probably a RoadRanger of some sort that was installed by a PO. They will interchange, but shift tower has to be swapped for the OEM bus shifter to match up. "RT" series transmisisons have low/high ranges where you shift thru 5th and flip the switch for high range. They were good transmissions. As long as it works and you can comfortably drive it, cool. The manual is dependable, but is an overall detractor from the value of the coach when compared to an automatic. At least that trans has very low "campground" gears if you need them.
Someone can elaborate on this, but I reckon it's possible that the coach has a two speed axle, that works OK too, but it would be sorta different to drive...that would require spit shifts thru most gears...? Not ideal.
If the switch is an air switch that operates laterally and you only switch is once at the end of 5th, it's a 10 speed. If you have a small electric switch that pulls up and down, that a two speed axle. Never seen one in a bus, but who knows what some folk come up with.
Spending money on an old 8V71 isn't special, even with a low mileage coach. I'd want to verify the mileage. You may be geting jerked around on the chassis mileage. Beware of people selling conversions and beginning with some date around when the conversion was done.
Check the dates on the tires. They might not pass a DOT inspection.
Check the radiators for rot. Check the fans for rot. Check the engine cradle for crap modifications and cracks. Verify that the transmission is properly mounted and that the clutch is smooth.
As stated, have someone familiar with MCIs to drive and evaluate the coach. Most old busses wouldn't make good boat anchors. Be ready for a few surprises.
Candidate 2 may have major engine problems, too many miles, and is going to cost a ton of bucks to get road ready.
The trans is likely an HT740 4 speed.
If the genset is gasoline, not desirable. Two roof airs will cool a bus.
A coach with 1.7 mil could have all sorts of major chassis problems just waiting to flatten your wallet. So could the 84K mile coach!
Good luck, JR
To me a 7K overhaul doesn't jive with only 84000. With that few miles there shoudn't be ANY engine repairs.
007,
Take the MC-9..... I have a 7.. The 9 has straighter walls, ceiling,and windows to work with. It also has larger rads in case you'd want a larger motor in the future. The auto makes the bus easier to drive for you or someone who goes with you. Also easier to handle in the big hills!! It's also newer and probably has the intragal power steering.
Richard
Like Richard I would go for the 9 not going to be as much rust to repair and a 7000.00 rebuild is just a patch job
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Update, the owner of the MCI-7 is still looking for the reciepts and is having a hard time locating them.
I talked to both owners and have got the MCI-7 down to 3300 and the MCI-9 down to 6800.
Does that change anything?
Does anyone know of any for sale that are in that price range and in better condition? I don't really care where they are, I'm willing to drive and pickup.
Quote from: topfrog007 on May 23, 2011, 06:53:11 AM
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Update, the owner of the MCI-7 is still looking for the reciepts and is having a hard time locating them.
Ha ha , a rebuild without receipts is just wishful thinking.
FWIW take your time, it's a buyers market out there, have a look at these buses but keep looking there are many many more out there, some of them finished and ready to roll at these prices. You may want to do your own conversion, but even so, with one ready to go you will save big $$$ and there will still be plenty to do, don't worry.
Don't pay the extra to pull out somebody's work. A shell would be cheaper. Make sure you drive the bus. Feel for any float in the steering wheel. Listen for and noise when you apply the breaks while stopping. Listen for movement of loose front end parts. Look behind the wheels and look for oil leaking down or oil on break drums through the wheels. Working on the inside of a conversion can be fun and rewarding. A coach looks better With latex paint on it than it sitting on the side of the road with a bad wheel bearing. You could have spent $2000 on a better bus rather than fixing it or be out $6000 and let the state haul it off if you do not have the funds to move it. The first time you have to jack the bus up and start fixing drive train parts you step into a differant world. You need a whole other set of big tools and ability. FWIW You can make the inside and out of a coach your own but if your not set up to work underneath it that is where you best have the best you can get.
I would vote for neither. Keep looking and do not be in a hurry to buy something with large compromises.
Buy the best bus you can. If you can afford a $7000 coach, don't buy a $3000 one unless it is worth $7000. If you afford $7000, could you stretch to ____?
How does the saying go? "The quality remains long after the price is forgotten."
I have heard many times, "I should have spent a little more money and looked more. Now, I want to sell the coach and get one with ______"
There are a lot of coaches to select from.
Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
We agree with Ed. The cheapest part of this is the actual purchase price. You are far better ahead to buy something that is mechanically sound, structurally sound, and taken care of. The repair bills will far exceed the difference in the price between a cheap coach and one that is priced for what it is.
We were lucky when we purchased our first coach. Right after we bought it we discovered many more units for less money than we paid for an unfinished conversion. We thought we had made a mistake. But after 8 years with this bus, we were lucky. We have had only two minor repairs in eight years, both we could do ourselves. Never had any engine or transmission repairs. We made a very good purchase.
Don and Cary
1973 Eagle 05
GMC 4107
Neoplan AN340
I'm with Ed, you really can't get much for 3 to 7k. Heck the awnings alone on my coach cost more than those buses. I would think without seeing them, they are probably a mechanical nightmare. If you can find a good coach that's ready to roll for that price, than go for it. But I have seen and read about many that should have gone to scrap. Also if you can find a fully converted bus for that price like others say there's plenty of, then that would be the way I would go. When you start to converting, all that hardware, plumbing, electronics and many other things will really add up. I just did some light remodeling all the plumbing and replaced a inverter, that cost 15k.
Gary
Before deciding on either of these buses, please go look at a MCI 102A or C3. Both are 102" wide. That extra 6" width really makes a big difference. Plus the C3 has 6'10" headroom and really nice big windows. Good Luck, TomC
Hmm.
Lots of good tips here. Although some confusing points. Some say we can get much more for 3-7K and some say nothing worth while in that range.
Does anyone know of any coach bus's under 10K (Max bus limit at this time, would prefer something more around 5K so we can do some improvements) that would be a good buy? My search as of now has been limited to craigslist and ebay, any recommendations on where to look?
We are pretty frugal, often able to do things for a fraction of what others pay. Usually by buying used/junked and fixing up.
Opinions are many, youll have to pick your way through. Some here are pushing $50k plus rigs down the road, some well over $100k. Others are in the sub $20k club, making quite a range and with that, many differing opinions. As we dont know what your goals and capabilities are, or financial concerns, no one can really surmise whats best for you, and honestly, you have to decide for yourself anyway.
Regardless of the aquistion cost, to have a Bus thats safe and reliable, all its systems have to be gone through, and you need a good engine, etc.. The more time you take to find the best Bus, the less money and time youll spend sorting it out. Here is where study pays off, search these forums and read as much as you can. Remember that being mobile, with a Bus its condition, condition, condition. Location only comes into the equation as a matter of getting it home, looking at them, etc.. If your looking at MC9's, they are everywhere right now for scrap price, you should be able to find one locally, same with MC7's. No need to look 2000 miles away for either.
As far as cost, these things are becoming so devalued and some sellers are in such a bind, that even for $3K you can find nice stuff, you just have to know what your looking at and be ready to pounce.
Without our eyes, you have to look at these two potential candidates and decide for yourself. There isnt a great deal of difference between a MC7 or an MC9, its primarily cosmetic. Theres more stainless in the 7 ive been told, but being older you still need to watch corrosion. All that said, the 7 seems the better deal. $3000 is less than scrap price, so its not like your going in upside down.
Classifieds in the BCM magazine.
Classifieds over at BNO - http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/ (http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/)
The commercial coach re-sellers, others will chime in with their favorites.
In many instances, there is a big difference between asking prices and selling prices.
The market is depressed, whole coaches are going for a fraction of the conversion parts value in them.
You'd like to shop for a coach from someone who knows what they are doing, or does it all the time.
Frankly, those two, ebay and craigs, are some of the last places I'd start to look. Generally the wrong place for good ones, wrong place for the right sellers, right place for the folks who knew nothing and got saddled with something they need rid of.
Get on the calendar and attend a bus rally near you and meet some busnuts and tour some coaches. Lots of the good ones get sold word of mouth when friends can't enjoy them anymore.
And, you'll meet friends who might be able to help you pick a good one out.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Check out www.busesonline.com (http://www.busesonline.com) they have some 1994 MCI 12's asking 12,000 bet 8 will buy one
Those things are MC9s that were kept in production for Greyhound. They are generally in very poor condition.
A few were converted to 50 series. Most have 6V92TAs...and a few are often listed in error as having 4 strokes.
Whatever coach you settle on, look it over with a critical eye.
Here's a possibility. Looks like it's in Jack C's neighborhood.
http://www.busesonline.com/view-listing.cfm?listing_id=505 (http://www.busesonline.com/view-listing.cfm?listing_id=505)
JR
The 12's were not just for Greyhound,the bus in FL looks to be a keeper 102 wide and a Cummins 4 stroke
There is a nice one on MCIbusTalk that look good. If I were still looking I would strongly consider this one. Asking $7500, could be bought for less.
http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php?topic=27.0 (http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php?topic=27.0)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi783.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy114%2FHighwayYacht%2FMC-9%2FDSC01324.jpg&hash=3e2328f098154524904abe066227c8f88b9c6569)
Where are you from? general location. I'm from sw Indiana and know of some in my area. Bob
I really appreciate all the help so far.
We're looking to buy one now and work on it for a year or two. Don't have a lot of capital, but have a steady job to constantly sink money into this project =)
Live in Alabama, but would travel nearly anywhere COUS for the right bus.
How can you trust that any specific bus has been maintained or not? Records? These things don't have odometers so it's hard to tell how much abuse they've seen right?
Quote from: topfrog007 on May 23, 2011, 12:24:34 PM
How can you trust that any specific bus has been maintained or not? Records?
Honestly, you cant. Which is why they have to be checked out, either by you (if you feel qualified) or a qualified mechanic. They are no different than buying a car. Mileage can be altered, records can be forged, and in the end, how it was driven has as much to do with it as anything. A brand new motor, clutch or transmission can be greatly abused in the hands of a knucklehead, and with only a few hundred miles be worse than a motor with 50K.
Condition, condition, condition. If everything is clean and functioning, no major rust, if you see lots of new parts, if its not leaking anything, and it drives well, your on the right path.
Just keep this in mind 99% of these old buses were used in revenue service they were sold off because of age ,wore out and the maintenance cost was to expensive to keep the unit on the road.
Nothing has changed except parts cost about 10 times more now since they left revenue service you will be kidding yourself thinking I'll only drive it 5000 miles a year so it shouldn't cost that much to maintain
good luck
We just got done looking at a 1982 MCI-9 that was for sale locally. The guy bought it from a church that purchased it directly from greyhound. When they purchased it from Greyhound they overhauled the engine and had a hubometer put on. Since the rebuild it has 53K miles on it. It's a partial rebuild with most of the interior framing done, and all electrical done. Tires are very good condition, not retreads. It does need to be repainted as the paint is peeling in some spots. Comes with a 6.5KW generator and 2 new rooftop AC's. Owner also mentioned he has all the materials for the conversion besides shower/sink/toilet and he will throw everything in as part of the sale.
It's the 6V71 with turbo and 4 speed automatic transmission. Not sure about the engine, thought the 6V's didn't come with Turbo's, only the 8V's.
Hour meter reads 15,000 hours.
He was asking 10,000 but after talking a while and me saying I couldn't afford it he said he would go to 7K.
Thoughts?
It won't be a 6v71 it will be a 6v92TA or a 8v71 those are the engines for 1982 MCI 9 makes it bad when a seller has no idea what he is selling
Let me say this about any coach that a church has owned. :'(
If a church has one for sale weather it be a MCI,Prevost Eagle or a GMC run the other way "FAST".
Very little to no maintenance and normaly they are just a real pile of junk so look else where.
I know I speak from experance with a old PD4104 that I bought from a church many years ago it was a maintenance project and a real money pit. ;D
jlv
Quote from: roadrunnertex on May 23, 2011, 04:57:56 PM
Let me say this about any coach that a church has owned. :'(
If a church has one for sale weather it be a MCI,Prevost Eagle or a GMC run the other way "FAST".
Very little to no maintenance and normaly they are just a real pile of junk so look else where.
I know I speak from experance with a old PD4104 that I bought from a church many years ago it was a maintenance project and a real money pit. ;D
jlv
My eagle came from a church. It had all of the maintance records with it and they did a good job on upkeep. 6 of 8 tires are nearly new as well.
You cant judge all of them off of one experience. ;D
Eric, that's no where near the bus you have. and twice the cost. Ck tires for dates..is a big cost. paint is a big expense also. 3 or 4 would be a closer market price. Maybe a little for ac and gen set you set value on it.
Ya I didnt pay the posted bus much attention. I was just reading the advice given. IMO just because its a church bus dont mean it couldnt be a good deal in general. I thought I got a good deal on my church bus is all I am saying ;D
You did Eric! Many churches are fortunate to have someone in the know -but when they don't even know what kind of engine is involved it sort of throws up red flag.
Quote from: Tikvah on May 23, 2011, 11:11:43 AM
There is a nice one on MCIbusTalk that look good. If I were still looking I would strongly consider this one. Asking $7500, could be bought for less.
Someone painted over the SS...?
BTW, all 6V92TAs in busses are turbo charged. The "T" gives it away. There were some 8V71Ts also.
And, there was a 6V71NA that could be found in some older coaches....'60s? There are also 6/71s that are common in GM coaches.
Buying a coach more than a few hundred miles away, unless it's just a gottahaveit thing, is risky. Fuel at $4. bucks a gallon X 6.5 MPG will dig into your wallet. An even larger issue would be a breakdown. Tow and storage, plus you're at the mercy of the local repair shops. Some will ruin your life...and some won't. I'd keep that purchase fairly close to home if possible.
JR
Looking for a simple answer and I'm sure your head is really spinning now. Time is your friend, use it to turn over lots and lots of rocks.
If you're on a budget-don't overlook a transit bus. I have a AMGeneral 10240B. It is similar to the GMC new looks of the 70's-80's. I bought mine for $4,000.00. Granted I did a lot of work on the chassis to get it where I wanted it, but then that was spread out over 10 years. My bus has 6'10" headroom (I'm 6'3" and can walk under the A/C's) and 22" of under floor space. I had to build all the brackets to hold the tanks, batteries, and storage compartment. Also had to create a space, next to the driver's seat like a front engine, for the generator. Fresh water system is under the raised master bed.
Ultimately, I have 130gal fresh, 85gal gray, 45gal black, 20gal propane, 130gal Diesel, 10kw Powertech Diesel genset, 2-8D deep cycle batteries, a storage compartment that is 66" long x 22" high x 99" wide, plus another storage space that is 18" wide x 22" tall x 34" deep, 3-13,500btu/hr roof top A/C's, and all normal amenities inside.
Advantages to a transit bus-they are built the toughest of all buses, have the best turning radius, usually use standard truck type equipment. Disadvantage-they don't have the big cargo compartments so conversion is harder.
Mechanically wise-I first had the injectors increased from 55 to 65's, Jake brake installed, rear end ratio changed from 5.57 to 4.56 (cruise at 1850rpm which is 58mph), changed grease wheel bearings to oil bearings. Then had the engine overhauled. Then had it turbocharged with air to air intercooling, and the transmission overhauled. Changed from air steering to full hydraulic Sheppard steering. Replaced all 8 air bags. Everything in the engine compartment has been rebuilt. Basically my point-be sure to buy a bus that has the engine/transmission you want and cruises at the speed you want. It is expensive to change out-as I've found out. Good Luck, TomC
So seems like the general consensus is that the bus's we've looked at are overpriced and questionable integrity.
Quote from: topfrog007 on May 24, 2011, 08:25:16 AM
So seems like the general consensus is that the bus's we've looked at are overpriced and questionable integrity.
I personally don't think so. You can't hardly even find a worn out car for that price. If you find a bus in your price range and it has a good engine and trans and also is solid with very little rust, It's worth it!!! Any conversion stuff is a bonus. It's already been said on here that you can't even do any major engine work for that price. So all this saying everything is over priced just blows me away. All I think it's doing, is depreciating the price of all of our buses. (The more people hear it the more they believe it) I would just look over whatever you like maybe even get a second opinion and buy if everything checks out.
Gary
a 102wide transit as mentioned before is fine. As far as compartments, all you have to do after removing the floor and possibly the blower fans is to weld up a long compartment underneith, which doesn't take much time, and possibly use the front step area for generator if you like mid entry. Its not hard. I have done this with a fishbowl, and my flxible. City gears will work, but hwy are much better.
Not really telling you to run away. Just concerned. The 9 would be My choice of the two. Even with the miss info on the engine. More used parts available for that model. Drive it for at least 50 miles and see how it acts. In that time any smoke that will should clear up and if it's going to overheat it should. The drips could be coming out of the air box drains and not be a major concern and mostly a lack of use and clear mostly up. A 2 stroke guy in your area could tell you quickly if this be the case.If that is all good and the bus just says to you I'm the one go for it. A local bus lines running Detroit's might be your best source for a mechanics opinion. Might be $100 well spent. I gave $750 at a MCI dealership to have mine run thru their shop(the 8 I bought from them) and everything evaluated and fixed. Some of the best money I ever spent. I ran the 8 for 10 yrs and only put one transfer pump on it ($45). We will help you with what we can. The paint-if you can paint a car or have a friend that can : that shouldn't be a major concern. You have Depwee on the Board at Ft Walton Beach Fla if you are in Southern Al. Best of Luck. Bob
Like everyone is stating, wait and find the best bus you can afford. My initial buy was a Prevost from California $29,995 with no rust great condition, 6 speed manual, 8V92T. Drove it back from Reno Nevada to Connecticut $1400 fuel and lodging, food. Blew the power steering pump on the way. Got back and took it to a local bus company. $5300 for ps pump, completely new clutch assembly and a few other things. Six new back tires $1800. Blew an air bag one day out of state, decide to have all 8 replaced plus ps box leaking, $4200. Decide I wanted my over the road air conditioning repaired, rebuilt compressor and complete over haul of the system, $4100. I work full time and don't have time to do the major mechanical myself so I have it done. But as you can see one minor or a major repair can cost a lot of money and if your are not prepaired for it the coach may site for awhile before you come up with the money. This is where people loose interest and then wind up selling for a lose.
I would keep looking.. or if you are seriously interested in any of the buses you have mentioned, get someone to inspect them and see what is really there. You never know, The MC-9 leak could be something very minor, or it could be a real costly fix. You'll know when the right deal comes along. I doubt it will be a 3K bus though. Even with Bus prices low I don't know of anywhere that you can purchase a bus for 3K or even 5K that doesn't have some kind of issues. Even the 20K buses can have issues. I paid 6K for my MC-9 about 8 months ago and yes it also has some issues but so far they have been very minor such as a leaking brake diaphragm. If you can find a decent running coach with no major know problems for 8K than you are much better off than buying a Coach in poor mechanical or structural shape for 4K. I could have bought a partially converted Coach with A/C's, Holding Tanks, Shower, etc for the same price I bought my seated coach but I chose the seated coach because it was in much better mechanical condition, was still tagged and insured, and had been owned by the seller since 1984. Good Luck!!!
Jimmy
Just my opinion again. There are Buses out there that would have sold for more than $50K just two years ago, asking less than $10K today just because of the flood of Buses available and the economy. Just because the Bus was listed for $7K, and the selled dropped to $3300, is no reason to be suspect. I would check it out before passing it off out of hand. Its a buyers market, and there are minimal buyers. And because so many sellers think they will sell local, they list local, cutting themselves off from nationwide buyers. IOW, dont let the asking price tell you what the Bus is worth, let it tell you itself, from the horses mouth so to speak.
Quote from: topfrog007 on May 24, 2011, 08:25:16 AM
So seems like the general consensus is that the bus's we've looked at are overpriced and questionable integrity.
I'll garuntee that
all 20 or 30 year old buses are of "questionable integrity!" No matter the price. Be prepared to work on it. ???
JR
Rather than pick nits over age or integrity, the goal should always be to find the best Bus you can afford, and afford to own, as well as the one that makes you happy. I think everyone realises theyll be spending a chunk of money after the purchase, its getting past the aquisition thats the hard part.
If cost were no object, I would pass by many of the newer Buses, they all look alike and have no real character, excepting perhaps the Prevosts and Eagles. Newer MCI's, from the nine onward, all look like simple boxes. Not that thats a bad thing, if thats what you like, but I get a kick out of the older ones, especially some of the GMC's. Everything doesnt have to have a flat roof.