We've been diving into our bus search, getting an idea for what we like, and trying to soak up as much knowledge as we can.
Yesterday we got to tour two awesome 4106's (thanks Barn Owl!), today we saw a Flxible Flxliner, and on Wednesday we will get to see our first MCI conversion. Kicking all these tires has been absolutely great. And we have been getting a lot of great leads via our "Sell Us Your Bus" form here too:
http://www.technomadia.com/sell-us-your-bus/ (http://www.technomadia.com/sell-us-your-bus/)
Checking out Barn Owl's 4106 I think has convinced us that we much prefer smaller buses, maxing out at 35 feet. And seeing the clutch-destroying driveway that he needed to get up made a vivid point of why we should really try for an automatic transmission too.
We think we will continue to like going down those sort of tight twisty and steep back roads, at least on occasion. And we love being able to camp in State and National Parks, and don't want to be turned away for size.
But before we rule out 40 footers and manuals entirely, I would like to more fully weigh the tradeoffs.
Other than space (35ft already provides WAY more than we are used to!), what are the advantages of going with a larger bus? And how real are the disadvantages? Do those of you with 40' or larger buses wish for something smaller? Do those of you with 35' buses wish for larger?
And when it comes to manual vs automatic, what are the real tradeoffs? How big is the fuel economy hit? Is it really that easy to destroy a clutch doing steep driveways and little country roads? And if we find an awesome bus with a manual - how hard, costly, and time consuming is it to upgrade to an automatic?
I'm looking forward to hearing the wisdom of this group on how the best weigh these tradeoffs.
Thanks!
- Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)
I have an advantage with my 40ft x 102" wide transit bus. It will out turn most 35ftr's since the turning angle on transits are tighter. I also have an Allison automatic. I don't care what the fuel mileage hit is, the Allison is just plainly a joy to drive (and this after 1.3 million miles of driving a truck with 13 speeds). If you insist on getting a manual transmission and doing exploring, try for a T drive rather then a V drive. With a V drive your restricted to just a 4 spd. With a T drive you could go all the way up to an 18 spd if you want. My opinion-don't get anything less then a 7 speed manual, with a 10spd being easiest. Good Luck, TomC
I would think that the larger bus would have a better re sale value then the shorter ones.
5c 35 X 8 foot are like driving a sports car on air bags. Just the right size especially if you go through Mexico's streets from what I have heard. Sure it would be nice to have a little bigger Bath but 6 tires cost about 1,200.00 less than 8. Love ours .
Dave ;D :o 8)
We've never run into a problem with our manual transmission, first gear is very low and moving slowly is easy. Also, twice now I've read here where the 45 footers turn more tightly than a 35 footer, but I've not seen what their turning radius actually is. Our 35 footer has a 42 foot turning radius by da book....which isn't too shabby.
Few have a driveway as steep as mine, with a max gradient reaching nearly 23%, it will test the ability of any Bus, or any other vehicle. But clutch destroying? I let the clutch out down where its only 4%, just drop the clutch and punch it. The clutch aint slippin on the grade, its fully engaged and the Bus just goes up without any drama. The drama was sweating if it would do it before I ever did it.
But this is with a 35 foot MC5. Now that ive made it up here, I do believe a GMC 35 footer would have made it, but they are a bit higher geared, so even at lower weight its a tradeoff and questioable, but in a million years youll likely never see a grade that steep, and never on a public road. A larger Bus would either needed lower gears, more power, or an automatic.
Like everything else in life, in a Bus you always have to compromise one thing to have something else. 40 feet of Bus would be nice, but what do I do with that extra space? Washer/dryer? That would be nice.... And heavy. Do I need a washer and dryer? There is just the four of us, 33 feet worked well before, 35 feet without a dashboard the width of a bed will give us more room. So ask yourself what you need 40 feet and an extra cargo bay for.
Then there is fuel economy. While some have enough money and attitude to say it doesnt matter, it matters to me and it matters to others. If for no other reason than getting father down the road and not having to spend time looking for fuel. A 40 foot MCI with an auto, figure about 5 mpg. I think thats simply the reality of pushing 40,000 pounds of Bus (a figure thats probably average for a 40 foot conversion, and before you hook on a toad) around with a transmission that sucks up 40 HP all by itself. You might get 6, but dont bet on it. But thats a decision you have to decide. I chose a 35 foot with manual transmission because they offer the best fuel economy "potential". Some claim 7-8, many others 10 ish. Probably has as much to do with the nut behind the wheel as anything, but good maintenence cant ever hurt. That it turns tighter and has two less tires dont hurt either.
Sounds like you have already decided on your life style for this portion of your life. A 35 ft with a auto would prob be easiest for a new to the adventure person(busnut) In a ideal world a 4 stroke modern engine would also be in the mix.(boy that will stirr the pot) Nothing wrong with the 6 &8v's but getting harder to find people to work on them.(good people)If you understand them and can work on them please disreguard that part.Electronics engines can be a challange as well but is what is the norm today. You have decided on size for now. May want more as your family size changes or you aquire more hobbies or treasures. We travel in a 45ft with 3 slides now with a toad. I'm older and stay several months most places at a time with mostly full hookups- plus several week long tractor shows a year with partial hook ups. Best thing when all said and done I would be like to meet you and share stories and beverages of your choice. Do it your way!
Disclaimer: I have TWO 40' footers!!! One manual & one auto
Having had my MCI (the manual) for several years & full timed in it two and a half, I have never wanted to get somewhere I could not go because of either the length or the transmission. The closest I have ever come to damaging the clutch was in my own shop yard where I had dumped 100,000 pounds of road millings on the drive & then it rained a month. Backing the bus into the normal spot left 11" ruts ( I measured them).
As far as length, on both my buses I can drop the air from the tags, thus shortening the effective turning radius by about 5 feet. It makes a world of difference.
Is the auto easier to drive? Definitely! Do I like it! Surely! Would that make difference to me in purchasing a bus? Some, but not much. If I was younger & figured to have more than just a few years left to enjoy this hobby, I would buy the most sturdy & versatile bus I could find for a foundation, build it to suit me, and keep it forever.
My fantasy bus would be a stainless sided MCI, with a 350 Cummins/auto transplant. Plenty of power, no electronics, and still get 7-9 MPG.
TOM
I went with a MC-5C largely due to the compact dimensions - height, width and length. I just wasn't attracted to the larger buses visually or aesthetically, and I really didn't like the raised roof type look - just my feel. Now I love looking at them but still don't yearn for one. Part of the attraction was absolutely the fact that I could get a single rear axle bus into my driveway, while a longer bus wouldn't have fit - ditto on the height. I had 6" clearance after I put the roof AC on. As far as interior accommodation and cargo space, the 35 foot size fits two people well but I would never suggest more, so if you have children or house guests regularly I would not recommend 35 feet. 40 feet would make two bedrooms quite possible, a bunk room for 4 and a main cabin for two is what I would see as possible.
Brian
I am suprised no one addressed the biggest current factor to get a lighter smaller bus over a 40.
FUEL MIALAGE
I have no idea what you want in a bus or price range but I can put you in touch with a guy that has a one owner 35 ft Prevost converted by ForeTravel (1 of 5) very nice conversion located in Texas low mileage well cared for always garaged and maintain by Prevost and he knows the market is down but he wants to sell because of his age
good luck
That is the other side of the coin, living in a coach as a home, or for long periods of time and parked. In those situations, size, weight, and fuel economy become less critical than space, comfort, ammenities, etc..
If traveling is the primary use, think smaller and more efficient, more manuverable, if parked, think more comfort. I dont plan on living in mine, or parking long term, im thinking more of traveling, cruising. IOW, decide on the lifestyle and let that help select the Bus.
Just an FYI, and if your considering building your own from scratch, there are litterally dozens of older MC9's for sale around the country any given week, many of which have a 7 speed stick that offers ultra low first and overdrive. And while an 8V71 could be considered underpowered to some, with that transmission, and driven conservatively, 8 mpg would not be unrealistic, and there isnt a grade anywhere you couldnt climb. Not a bad package overall in a 40 footer, and what I was searching for when this -5 popped up.
I would like to take a look at that 35ft Prevo.
Hi all.. thanks very much for all the experience sharing!
Just a point of reference for those offering advice regarding creating room for possible future family expansion, Chris and I are firmly childfree by choice (do not have children, do not want children and physically can't have any) - so this is not a concern for us. We do have a cat, and sometimes it would be nice to lock her in her own room.
Now.. expanding hobbies and infrequent guests - always a possibility :) But at this point, all of the 35' buses we've seen offer far more storage space than we could utilize.
For the past 3 years we've lived full time in a 17' travel trailer with 80 sq ft of living space, and before that at 16' trailer with 45' sq ft of space. We are definitely used to and appreciate well designed tiny mobile house living, and live a bit on the minimalist side in terms of ownership of 'stuff'. We are keeping a 40' bus as a possibility and are not firmly decided on any bus stuff at this point... but so far, 35' is what we keep being drawn to.
Thanks,
- Cherie
If you are thinking about going off the beaten path, I would not rule out a school bus. They will have better ground clearance, better approach and departure angles, better low speed gearing, and generally easier maintenance because they are basically a truck. They will generally have much more flexibility as far as changing drive train options.
Crowns and Gilligs are the creme but Thomas and Blue Bird build some pretty good buses.
I went with the MC-9 for two reasons. I have used a 26' GMC motorhome and found it to be lacking in space tho we did use it once to sleep 7. I do have one of the largest turning radius es out there 51' but I am only 96" wide. With the 102" you can get on the back roads and be illegal in width without knowing it. Granted most officers don't carry a tape measure and use it but better the safety than the sorrow. On a post script thought the 102" actually turns tighter than the 96" at 44' due to a rear steer mechanism on the trailing axles. My further thought is the KISS principal. Do I want to repair / maintain that system?
When I was looking/yearning ::) I wanted the biggest bad boy i could find....... typical. And altho "size matters" I am tickled to death with my 35' Buffalo. I especially like the big/tall baggage compartments. The PO made the one bay into a kids room with a trap door from the inside. Cool idea. (I call it the basement.) I now use that for my Harley. Altho you may not "need" a lot of storage, having it REALLY makes things nice!!! And you can always use it as a guestroom/sewing room. ;D :D :D :D lol
Chaz
If you want to travel to cal, I know where there is a 1995 country coach on a Gilli bus frame. The engine has around 14,000. after a out of frame in frame. 8V92 and HD 4060 auto, fresh tires, new house batt's and a few other things.
Don
8884733626
Just my experience, I am in the hills, have a 4104 35' with the 671 and a 4 speed. I have owned mid size trucks with diesels and automatics, drive a big truck with a 10 speed nightly, and I LOVE driving my bus over the roads here in the Ozarks. On the 2 lane hilly backroads it floats down the road in 3rd gear getting me down the road at 50 to 55 mph. Fast enough for me and I rarely have to down shift on a hill as running in 3rd I am keeping the RPM"S up there where the old Detroit is happy. I have a grade that drops 1200 feet in about 2 miles just down the road from me, I can put the transmission in low gear and not even touch my brakes on the way down, as I am a firm believer in you can go down a hill too slow many times but too fast only once. I used to own a S&S RV with an automatic and I would get hot brakes/brake fade on this hill. I know a coach with Jake Brakes would get me down but I really do like my manual transmission.
On the interstate, according to my GPS, it will roll along at 70 to 75, no problem. Is it underpowered?, yes, but it is a bus and the older I get the less of a hurry I am in and I like the 8 to 9 MPG I get. I also like the idea of the availability and the affordability of a used 4 speed Splicer Transmission if I ever have to replace mine. Keep in mine I am "old school" and I like the style of the older 35' coaches where a lot of people like the more square style of the newer buses with the bigger engines, more floorspace and automatic transmissions.
To each his own and that I think is just one thing what makes this "hobby" of ours so so great. I think that the style and the age of the bus that appeals to you the most should be the big factor in deciding what is the "right" bus for you. In all probability you will never own the perfect bus, but for me my '59 4104 and the project '52 4103 suit me just fine. Like you said in the title of this post, TRADEOFFS!!! ;)
I'll just stick to the facts. The advantage of 40' over 35' is more space. However, if you utilize the space in a 35' well, you will not see much of a difference. They both have limits as far as routing and public campgrounds are concerned, but the 40's have more, so a 35' gives you some extra options. We have a 35'. I have considered a 40', but still prefer 35'.
Except for making the bus harder to steal, there is no advantage to a manual transmission in an RV (unless shifting gives you joy). The manual's extra control advantage going down a grade is negated by simply having Jakes on your automatic. As for ease of driving, dependable climbing, sharing driving, resale, etc., the automatic is the way to go.
Cherie, If I were in the market for a 35' bus I would look into the Prevost Clifford talked about. I have a 5C and I am happy with it, could be a few feet shorter for us. The prevost will have a dropbox also like the MCI 5s and some Eagles. I would go across the USA to get the right bus, not just looking local. Tom Y
Do not forget about the Auto-Shift, a Automatic/Manual Trans.
Chris -
Something else to ponder:
A few years ago, another busnut was kind enough to measure his stripped 40' MC-9 at the floor from the dashboard to the rear wall. I got out the tape and did the same thing with my 35' GMC PD4106.
With 5-feet exterior overall length difference, suprisingly, the interior length was only different by 2' 9".
Why?
T-drive MCI vs V-drive GMC.
I'd also take up Clifford's offer to get in touch with the owner of the 35' Prevost.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ, are you sure that the difference is in the drives and not the MCI radiator/fan compartment. The wall behind our bed, which is at the fan compartment, is 32'6" from the front windshield. Our 5a, although nominally 35' is really less than that even down at the bumpers. It is really probably only 34' at the mid windshield level.
This is not a bus, but ever since I saw it, thought it was a pretty cool idea. Tiny houses or small houses on trailers. There are several floor plans available, and they sure make great use of the space. Have fun looking at least: Tiny Houses (http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/houses/)
Mike
Quote from: Lin on May 10, 2011, 12:37:16 PM
. . .Except for making the bus harder to steal, there is no advantage to a manual transmission in an RV
Ha ha ha ;D
Now there's one for the books. LOL
yeah, put one of those on top of your bus... ;D
the last bus i bought was a 35' X 102 flx ... and for 2 of us it's just right...and it goes into lotsa off the path campgrounds, but like post earlier... ain't exactly legal on the side roads, but I never have been stopped ever in any of my 4 busses i've had over the past 25 yrs... I don't think the 40 or more would fit in lotsa places i have gone. Not to mention ive gone several places that i shouldn't have... However, my dad had a fuel business when i was growing up, and i had to go up lots of very steep logging roads in the west coast in oregon, so i haven't been too imtiminated by narrow roads, etc. Anyway, its just my preference and works for me...
My brother lives up a steep old logging road, and drives his 4106 manual tranny up and down it... I don't know how, as one switchback is so sharp you almost need a cat to drag your hiney around (not to mention the drop off.. ) ...n i won't take mine up to his place.... so if i was just going to live on the freeways, i would want 45'.
Quote from: Lin on May 10, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
RJ, are you sure that the difference is in the drives and not the MCI radiator/fan compartment?
Lin -The measurement on both vehicles was taken on the floor, from the dashboard vestibule to the first engine compartment step up.
It was not taken from the windshield to the very back wall, just on the floor.
I know, I was surprised, too!
Chris -Another couple thoughts have crossed my mind that might be a consideration: ground clearance and insurance.
A highway coach has much less ground clearance than a conversion done on a skoolie chassis. So off-roading and backwoods boonie-bouncing will be something you might have to re-think.
OTOH, getting insurance for a skoolie conversion, unless done on a transit/coach-type pusher chassis compared to a dog-nosed model, will be much harder to obtain. (Oh, and skoolie chassis are notoriously under-powered.)
Might also consider a conversion done on an RTS chassis. Altho based on a transit, most folk who have converted them have done all the necessary work to have basement storage and tankage. Sometimes referred to as the 2nd generation "Sports Car of Buses", they have a very tight turning circle and a really nice ride. The larger interior wheelwells create some challenges, but they're not insurmountable. If you can find a 35' x 102" model, it's like driving a big mini-van!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ,
My point was that since the bed is usually all the way in the back partially over the engine compartment, this does not account for much of a loss of useable space. The head of the bed is about 18" from the rear of the bus. This limit is created by the radiator/fan compartment. How much closer to the rear can the bed be on the 4106? That would show the real difference.
I also came from the GMC Motorhome world (26' Palm Beach). Took many trips going to college b-ball games some just wife, dog, and me and others with our daughters, who both played college ball. Also vacations. I thought..."man, this thing is small"....but we did it and survived these trips. Then I moved to the 4106. Frankly, it's the same story, just spread out. You put people and gear in a 96" wide bus and I really don't care how long it is. I subscribe to the old boat axiom in answer to "how many does it sleep?"....well, "it PARTIES 10, EATS 6, and SLEEPS 2". Same thing with a bus. I would NOT like bigger. My wife would also like to get another GMC and has never taken to the bus.
As for manual vs auto.....I have no pluses and/or minuses on either. When you are heading down the road, unless it is mountainous, you can drive 300 miles and never touch the clutch.
Quote from: Lin on May 10, 2011, 12:37:16 PM
Except for making the bus harder to steal, there is no advantage to a manual transmission in an RV (unless shifting gives you joy).
No advantage? How about the excess heat of the auto you need to disapate? Which on an MCI with an already marginal cooling system pushes temps right to the edge. How about the approximate 40 HP you lose feeding an automatic? Or perhaps the sheer cost of replacement, I doubt youll find HT740's anywhere around for peanuts like most of the standard gearboxes ($thousands vs %hundreds), and that B500 is, what did I hear, over $20K? For a transmission? Then you have the manual gearboxes almost unbreakable reputation.
In all my searches and research, on this board as well as others, the consensus is a 2 mpg hit, across the board, running an auto vs a manual. There certainly are exceptions, but those exceptions run both ways, from some not seeing any drop in fuel economy, to others seeing 4 mpg or more loss. With fuel now over $4 gallon, any drop in economy is rapidly noticed in our pocket. And in no case have I come across an auto offering "better" economy. Not saying there isnt one, just saying I havnt seen any.
I certainly have nothing against anyone wanting an auto, and fully understand the reasoning in wanting one, sore knees being one, but there are many advantages to a manual that reach far beyond the competence of a thief, not the least of which is the joy of mastering the shift, and feeling like a real Bus driver from days gone by.
Art,
As mentioned "if shifting gives you joy." I meant that seriously. It appears that you enjoy shifting, so that is a positive for you as opposed to a negative. I have changed to an Allison 647, and it is great. My Spicer did once get me stuck halfway up a hill with a car on a tow dolly attached. The 8v just did not have the power to push the bus in that high first gear on that particular incline. I don't think that will happen with the auto. If one gets caught in stop and go traffic on a 6-8% grade like the Grapevine, not only is the clutch going to be seriously challenged, but you will have to constantly worry about the idiot in the Smart car, whom you can't see, that insists on keeping a gap of 2 feet to your rear bumper each time you stop.
I am also not convinced about the large difference in fuel mileage. I have found that my mileage now is sometimes less and sometimes more than I used to get with the Spicer, so I tend to think of it as a wash. However, I can't be totally sure since we went from C60 to N65 injectors at the same time as the transmission swap, so instead to have less power, I have more.
Cost of replacement is definitely different. However, comparing the cost of a beat up 5th hand manual to a rebuilt Allison is not fair. A rebuilt Spicer would cost almost as much, and a used Allison can be had for almost as little. However, the time to choose which you want is before you buy. These days, a fully converted bus with either is going to be in the same range. Doing the switch after buying, as we did, is a costly idea.
I still contend that the real advantage of a manual is in the personal preference of the driver (just like the ownership of a bus over a good, manufactured motorhome is); most of the justifications are really after the fact. I know a highly competent busnut that is very happy with his "S&S". You out there?
If it was just me, I would've got a bus with a manual again. I have shifted gears in buses all my life and I don' mind. As a matter of fact, I enjoy a stick, and shifting properly brings a certain satisfaction... A well done shift is as smooth or smoother than an automatic.
Looking for a newer bus last year, we decided that it had to be an auto, so Valerie my wife can drive it. And she does now, quite well too. She would not even consider double clutching a straight cut. Not that she couldn't learn, but she is just not interested. She reasons: why bother when you can put an auto in D and push the right pedal. I've got her to shift it manually and she does it well.
I like the automatic too. (HT740). So easy to drive, especially around town. And I've become better at smooth shifts.
Oh and you can control what gear it is in just as well as in a manual.
Yes it might use a little more fuel to run, and it does put out heat which you have to watch going up hill on a hot summer day. I hope I don't have to replace it some day, $$.
But in our case, similar to a lot of other bus nut couples out there, it seems to be the better choice.
Keek in mind that some day, you might become hurt or sick, and your wife will have to drive the bus, even if she doesn't do it regularly now.
JC
I can buy rebuilt 740's with a nation wide warranty all day long for 2500 bucks you replace the clutch in a bus the right clutch can cost over 1500 bucks just for parts and who wants the reverse gear on a 4 speed nothing but problems with the solenoid and the shift tower and you don't give much mileage with a 740 the mistake people make they don't match the torque converter with unit.
A Allison FS 740 will get you the same mileage and most of the time better than a manual tranny same as the ice cream deal all is what prefer.
Allison gets blamed a lot from the MCI people for heat it's not all their fault the old MCI cooling system is a joke to start with JMO
good luck
It also depends on the manufacture. V730 for a GM is $1200 from NIMCO. Not all that expensive. For my father to get his bus home requires backing it up a long steep driveway. Not possible with a manual. My driveway is 7/10ths of a mile long and it is not a "get a running start at it" ordeal. Simply put, if you want to go where most others cannot, you have to go small and go auto, or go skoolie if you plan on traveling on unimproved roads. Real experience talking.
As you can see, there is no shortage of opinions. I have a 4104, which is a 35' bus with a manual transmission. I wouldn't have anything else at this point in my life. However, that doesn't mean as I get older, and hope to fulltime, that my desires won't change. We are blessed to have a bus, so I wouldn't ask for anything more right now. I know that you will make the correct decision for you and your wife. Whatever road you take, make the most of it and take a little time to enjoy yourself.
Good Luck,
Mike
Well I ought to add a nickels worth here.
My main concern ( and yours should be too) is heat, I would not buy,build,or own a coach with a stock cooling system.
OK maybe that was only 2 cents worth.
Simple solution-if you want the efficiency of a manual transmission with the ease of automatic shifting-then use either the Autoshift (clutch pedal used only to start and stop), Ultra Shift (automatic centrifugal clutch), or the Ultra Shift Plus (electronically controlled automatic clutch). The Ultra Shift Plus is available in 10, 11, 13, 18spds. I would have used one in my truck, but for best operation, the electronic transmissions should be run with an electronic engine. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 11, 2011, 09:10:02 PM
I would not buy, build, or own a coach with a stock cooling system.
Hold on a minute here. . .
Only on the bus conversion bulletin boards does this seem to be an issue.
Greyhound, Trailways and other buses have been pounding the pavement for years equipped with the stock cooling system. They don't seem to have major problems, and they run far more miles in a month than a busnut RV does in several years.
90% of the time, when a bus overheats, it's DRIVER ERROR! The other 10% is component failure, usually due to lack of proper preventative maintenance.
This from someone who spent over 25 years in the bus business. . . but feel free to DIYW!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I have three buses all transits. One is my favorite that is my 35 foot 96 inch wide RTS these country roads with no shoulders is enough for a 96 wide bus. I have a 40 foot 96 wide Flxible Newlook and the length is a bear getting in and out of my driveway. I love the cornerstones to much to remove. And I have a 40 foot by 102 inch Flyer that is huge. That RTS I have has that special place in my heart just love the looks the way it drives, They all have their good and bad. I am just one person and not married (unfortunatly) no kids (unfortunatly) so i don't need 45 feet. If I was rich yeah I would love to have an MCI J4500. But till then I am happy with my three different size buses and the automatics. Don't like the speed of most transits but better than being busless. My opinion. Mike.
There is a disadvantage of a low bay bus that needs to be mentioned. The low bay height makes storing bikes or scooters a challenge. You might have to get the types that fold up for storage unless you have a way to transport them on the outside. Being on the outside has its own problems like theft, dirty, in the way, etc. Every thing is a trade off. Finding a small inexpensive car or trailer to pull would be an easy fix.
Quote from: TomC on May 11, 2011, 11:38:20 PM
Simple solution-if you want the efficiency of a manual transmission with the ease of automatic shifting-then use either the Autoshift. . .
. . . for best operation, the electronic transmissions should be run with an electronic engine. Good Luck, TomC
Isn't an electronic engine mandatory for any of the Autoshift types.
After all, isn't the control constantly bumping throttle and brake to synchronize shifts?
Or is there a way around it?
Ted
The problem conversion people have is they want more hp on a stock cooling system Greyhound and others never changed injector size the 245 to 270 hp range on the bus was fine with hp comes heat,the 8v92TA in a MCI Greyhound Bus was 355 hp fwiw
good luck
Quote from: RJ on May 12, 2011, 01:10:29 AM
Hold on a minute here. . .
Only on the bus conversion bulletin boards does this seem to be an issue.
Greyhound, Trailways and other buses have been pounding the pavement for years equipped with the stock cooling system. They don't seem to have major problems, and they run far more miles in a month than a busnut RV does in several years.
90% of the time, when a bus overheats, it's DRIVER ERROR! The other 10% is component failure, usually due to lack of proper preventative maintenance.
This from someone who spent over 25 years in the bus business. . . but feel free to DIYW!
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
I agree! My MCI is STOCK. 8V71/4 speed manual. The cooling system is stock. It has been all over the US including out west , Arizona, Washington, Montana, and the Rockies. Never been hot. Slow, yes. Hot, no.
If you want to modify the engine to make to run faster, or not maintain the mechanicals so you can buy the flat screen, you're gonna have problems.
My Dad used to say, "If you dance to the music, you're gonna pay to the piper"!
TOM
RJ,
Thank You for your clarification. It's funny that most of these busses exceed a million miles in their lifetime. It's obvious that no common ground will ever be reached where opinions are at stake. We all have our likes and dislikes. However, when it comes to performance issues, the proof is in the pudding.
Mike
Times have changed back when the 4104 was made the speed limit was 55 and 60 you are not going to run 75 mph all day long in one of these older buses without heating problems
good luck
Cliford
Times have changed and so have the 4104's. Never say never till you check on the coach.
Can run 70/75 all day long.
Just have to feed it.
uncle ned
4104's forever
Ned does that 6v92 get hot in your 4104 I have friends that have the DDEC L 6-71 330 hp in 4104's and they get little warm also at 75 mph for long periods any bus will get warm where I live in Aug lol I watch the newer Prevost and other makes going to Vegas up the grade from Laughlin they take there time about 10 mph and you always see the older buses off on the shoulder cooling down
good luck
Speaking of cooling... Whatever happened to the super-coolant breakthrough being touTed a few years ago? Seems like the claim was that 350hp engines were going to be cooled with heater-core sized radiators. The trucking trade magazine articles made it sound like the potion was practically retail ready.
Or was that something just for the Siberian market? ;D
Ted
You can put the 10spd Autoshift with a mechanically controlled engine, then it becomes an AutoSelect transmission. It still shifts automatically-but you have to be the one releasing the gas pedal and then pushing it back down again at every shift. It takes some training to get to the point of having smooth shifts, but then again, at least it is shifting for you. The only thing you are not doing with an AutoSelect is actually moving the gear shift lever. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: RJ on May 10, 2011, 09:10:59 PMA highway coach has much less ground clearance than a conversion done on a skoolie chassis. So off-roading and backwoods boonie-bouncing will be something you might have to re-think. ... Might also consider a conversion done on an RTS chassis. Altho based on a transit, most folk who have converted them have done all the necessary work to have basement storage and tankage.
In my searching around, I've found essentially no Skoolie or RTS conversions for sale in a ready to go state - just half-done project buses. If I could find some options to check out, we'd love to consider them.
Where is the best place to find Skoolies for sale? RTS buses?
Thanks!
- Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)
There are several schoolie sites you could probably find with a little research. There are RTS groups too. If I were looking for a schoolie, I would keep doing searches for Crown. They had an awesome product. I believe that many are still in school service even though they have not been made in a long time. They even made some with multi-wheel drive. Things come and go, but Ebay and Craigslist will show some eventually.
And you thought asking about a Bus would be a simple question? LOL.
Quote from: Barn Owl on May 12, 2011, 04:27:29 AMThere is a disadvantage of a low bay bus that needs to be mentioned. The low bay height makes storing bikes or scooters a challenge. You might have to get the types that fold up for storage unless you have a way to transport them on the outside. Being on the outside has its own problems like theft, dirty, in the way, etc. Every thing is a trade off. Finding a small inexpensive car or trailer to pull would be an easy fix.
This is a very good point. Is there any information compiled anywhere comparing the bay height of various bus models?
Storing bikes outside is never a good idea. Our first set of bikes got stollen off the rack on the back of our Jeep. And our second set aged prematurely to the constant weathering. *ugh*
- Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)
Quote from: technomadia on May 12, 2011, 10:55:18 AM
This is a very good point. Is there any information compiled anywhere comparing the bay height of various bus models?
Chris -The GMC Buffalo (4107, 4108, 4903 & 4905) has/had the largest baggage bins of any production highway model coach, including several of today's 45-foot monsters.
(The 4905s also have a wheelbase that is longer than many of today's 45-footers, too! Makes for a SWEET ride on the highway, even if they take a city block to turn [J/K].)
The 41s are 35-footers with two bins, the 49s are 40' and have three. Somewhere in my file cabinet I have the dimensions of the bins, will have to poke around to find it.
Check out www.coachinfo.com (http://www.coachinfo.com) for a lot of data about various bus models.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Ned does that 6v92 get hot in your 4104 I have friends that have the DDEC L 6-71 330 hp in 4104's and they get little warm also at 75 mph for long periods any bus will get warm where I live in Aug lol I watch the newer Prevost and other makes going to Vegas up the grade from Laughlin they take there time about 10 mph and you always see the older buses off on the shoulder cooling down
good luck
Clifford The best cure that I have found is monster radiators and keep the rpm's above 1500.
no luging, either run 75 or 55
uncle ned
Russ is not kidding about turning a 4905. Back when I was instructing, we taught that you could take a right-turn corner in a 35 foot (96 inch wide) transit, so that the right rear wheel is six inches from the curb. Take it the same way in a 40-foot transit, you'd hit the curb. Make the bus 102 inches wide, the 35 footer would hit the curb, the 40 footer would runover the curb.
However, take it the same way in a 4903 or 4905, your right rear wheel would go over the sidewalk, kill the pedestrians, and hit the building. Our coach line run was into downtown Boston. The concept is to go by the corner, halfway down the next block, then start to think about turning the steering wheel.
I may have missed earlier responses, but the big question is where you will take the bus. If it's always paved road, a transit or coach will do. If, however, you plan to go off the beaten path, you really do want to think about a former schoolbus (Crown being the best of them), for the high clearance.
Arthur
Quote from: Lin on May 12, 2011, 10:21:51 AM
There are several schoolie sites you could probably find with a little research. There are RTS groups too. If I were looking for a schoolie, I would keep doing searches for Crown. They had an awesome product. I believe that many are still in school service even though they have not been made in a long time. They even made some with multi-wheel drive. Things come and go, but Ebay and Craigslist will show some eventually.
Yes, Crowns are certainly very well-designed and solidly-built buses, but so are Gilligs. Both Crown and Gillig made tandems - they have both rear axles driven, unlike OTR buses with tag axles, with an inter-axle third differential that can be locked for off-road or snow/icy conditions. These tandems were only made as mid-engine 40-footers, with either Detroit 6-71 or big Cummins, with Allison HT740 automatics or with 5- or 10-speed manuals. Gearing varies - my friend's tandem Gillig has 3.7 axles, which with a 290 HP 14-liter Cummins 855 means that hills really don't slow him much, and he can cruise all day long at 75 MPH. His tandem Crown has (we're guessing) 4.1 axles, so it's good for about 70 MPH because its 6-71 is set for more than 2100 RPM; it has a Road Ranger non-overdrive 10-speed which gives it an absurdly low first gear - you could easily start that bus up the steepest of grades. He gets about 10 MPG with both his buses, not bad for heavy-duty vehicles with GVWRs over 47,000 lbs!
The one downside of these tandems if you want a fully-converted bus is their mid-engine design. There's not much room underneath for water tanks and everything else that's needed, but they do have large rear trunks that can hold a lot. For this reason my friend's Gillig will have its bathroom and shower in the back, directly above the grey and poo tanks in the trunk. There are several really nice conversions of mid-engine Crowns and Gilligs, so it can be done; it just needs much more ingenuity and out-the-box thinking than even a "normal" bus conversion.
Another factor with Crowns and Gilligs - they have hefty full-length frame rails (except by the trunk area on mid-engine buses), making it easy to attach tow hitches and anything else. This is one reason that they can handle rough or unsurfaced roads so well - some Crowns used by school districts in the desert have run almost a million miles on such roads, for decades!
My Crown is one of the rare later pushers, with the same 6V92 engine and HT740 transmission as an MC9 bus. I chose it over a mid-engine simply because there's so much more underfloor space for everything I need: I have two 110-gal fresh tanks, a 115-gal grey and a 65-gal poo tank, room for eight golfcart batteries, a small generator for emergency use, and there's still space for lots more things without using any of the full-width bellybin. It's a 40-foot single-rear-axle, also an usual configuration, but it has four less tires and two less differentials than a tandem, which should lower its long-term costs of upkeep.
If you want something really unusual, Sierra Sands school district in Ridgecrest CA has some tandem Thomas pushers. Yes, that's right! Thomas made a few WestCoast-ER models (an uprated Saf-T-Liner, some even with disk brakes!) as dual-drive tandems, with either Cat 3208 or Cummins 8.3 engines. These would give you the best of both worlds - dual drive, plus a pusher's underfloor storage space. As long as CARB funds are not used to replace school buses, school districts can sell them themselves, sometimes through Interschola; if CARB is funding their replacements the old buses have to be scrapped. Don't let me get started about that . . . These Thomases are pre-1990, so they may be coming up for replacement soon.
Oh yes, one more thing. I have 15" or more space underneath my bus, so I can easily work under it, and there's plenty of ground clearance for adventurous driving.
Hope this helps. If you want to see my and my friend's buses, there is a get-together in early June in the SoCal high desert - PM me if you would like to join us there.
John
Quote from: technomadia on May 12, 2011, 10:55:18 AM
Quote from: Barn Owl on May 12, 2011, 04:27:29 AMThere is a disadvantage of a low bay bus that needs to be mentioned. The low bay height makes storing bikes or scooters a challenge. You might have to get the types that fold up for storage unless you have a way to transport them on the outside. Being on the outside has its own problems like theft, dirty, in the way, etc. Every thing is a trade off. Finding a small inexpensive car or trailer to pull would be an easy fix.
This is a very good point. Is there any information compiled anywhere comparing the bay height of various bus models?
Storing bikes outside is never a good idea. Our first set of bikes got stollen off the rack on the back of our Jeep. And our second set aged prematurely to the constant weathering. *ugh*
- Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)
Plenty of room for your bikes in one of these!:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jumbocruiser.com%2Fphotos2%2FBuses%2Fjumbocruiser%2FStorage%2520bays%2FMegaloaders%2Fslides%2FMegaloader%2520Bay%25201.jpg&hash=0c0fc26dc6796aaa6ac94eafc931fb0dc30e3501)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jumbocruiser.com%2Fphotos2%2FBuses%2Fjumbocruiser%2FJU04BUS%2Fslides%2Fdscf1539.jpg&hash=a141ffab5e7c94b02bb916c47347611b320ca2bf)
Jeremy
Quote from: Iceni John on May 12, 2011, 12:52:11 PM
Both Crown and Gillig made tandems - they have both rear axles driven, unlike OTR buses with tag axles, with an inter-axle third differential that can be locked for off-road or snow/icy conditions. ... Oh yes, one more thing. I have 15" or more space underneath my bus, so I can easily work under it, and there's plenty of ground clearance for adventurous driving.
I loved your description of the advantages of a Crown. I hadn't even realized that there were bus options with dual drive axles. How cool!
I'd love to see some pictures of what some people have done with Crown conversions - I'm going to go hunt Google for some inspiration... And if anyone stumbles across any contenders for sale, let us know.
I love the idea of a bus that can still get to some of the remote places we used to go in our truck / trailer.
- Chris // www.technomadia.com (http://www.technomadia.com)
Getting down the remote road is one thing. Getting into a campground with a length limit is another. Most of the remote campgrounds in California have a very short length limit, usually under 26 feet, or they are tent only. The campground road is very narrow and the turns are very tight. Then there is the low hanging branches and trees up to the road to get around. Many of them just will not let you in.
Don and Cary
1973 Eagle 05
GMC 4107
Neoplan An340
To the each hisowners,
I have a coach,I drive it on average 12K miles a year and i have an over sized radiator/cooling sys.
and I can run all day at 80 ON FLAT GROUND WITH NO HEAD WIND<<<<<<<<
BUT i have more,much more than 9000lbs( the avg weight of the passengers in a 45 passenger coach) of innards and tow a 16 foot trailer with two HD MC'swhen i want to.And tools out the kazoo and a spare tire and sometimes I tow a Jeep sometimes a Tahoe.....
I've pulled Tioga Pass and into and out of Albuquerque and from Reno to Susanville...to Alaska and back in July and November.
And I know that the life expectancy of my motor is not a worry.
Even with my oversized sys my auto engine shutdowns have tripped 4 times over about 7 years.One in particular i recall 107 degrees out of Prescott to Williams......of course i also know that them thar warning lights mean pull off, not add throttle and downshift in the left hand lane :P
Yup I am overjoyed that I don't have a flat screeen, I enjoy my maintenance as much as my coach, and wonder how many cracked heads I have saved my self.
Sign me worry free,to each his own,operator error.... ;D
Eagle19552
PS You can't fool Mother Nature.... :-* oops thats margarine. :o :D :)
Does that Eagle still have the 8v71 as when Willie bought it may be on running on marijuana power as much dope that has been smoked aboard that bus
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on May 12, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Does that Eagle still have the 8v71 as when Willie bought it may be on running on marijuana power as much dope that has been smoked aboard that bus
good luck
I reckon....it still has the 8-71 Natural ain't thet smokin stuff natural....LOL
needed the Osize to be cool.
The RTS is the best in my book! The close 2nd would be a dog nosed skooli! But we all have our own preferences. Here are 2 RTSs that are finished and for sale. http://www.tourwest.com/forsale.html (http://www.tourwest.com/forsale.html) http://www.rts-bus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=628 (http://www.rts-bus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=628)
Yes the 40ft Crown and Gillig mid engine buses have tandems in the rear-but many of the last production models used a single drive with full tag axle. They both look the same until you look at the hubs-which are obviously different.
I almost used a Crown for my conversion-I would have cut it off behind the driver's compartment and had a new box-similar to what I now have with my truck-custom made. Then I would have a full length basement. In building my truck, I'm now installing the furniture without concern for wiring or plumbing-having the full length basement has its' advantages. Good Luck, TomC
96" wide. Get a 1976 or later year model. Flat glass. You can easily repower the Small Cam with a Big Cam 2 Cummins putting out as much streetable power as you wish. Ten speed Roadrangers are soosss cool.
Cruise at 80mph with a top over 100mph. At 55mph we get over 10 mpg...sometimes better. Power assist steering. Very big 15" x 10" brakes. (I think) Under 30000 lbs street weight converted.
Built like a tank. A roof rollbar every 17 inches. Off the shelf HD truck parts. Will run circles around practically any other coach. Very inexpensive ex school bus Crown Supercoaches are available on the West Coast. HB of CJ (old coot)
All the way through, Crown had the option of either 2 piece curved windshield or 4 piece flat pane windshield. Even thought the curved looks much better, the flat pane can always be replaced by most any glass man. On my Kenworth cabover, I also have a 4 piece flat pane windshield. Good Luck, TomC
I started with a 35 ft gm 4106 and now have a 40 ft mc-8
Both have their advantages.
35 ft much better turn radius. 8=10 mpg with manual, great interior layout ( almost as much room as the 40 fter and more usable kitchen space) , drives like a sports car, better approach and departure angles
40 ft smoother ride, love the auto, no more worries of steep hills. By the way 4106's use 2nd gear for reverse, don't try to back up a hill. 6-7 mpg
more bays so more storage area
35 ft 28000#s
40 ft 38000#s
Really would prefer the 35ft length with an auto.
Some of the 40 ft owners say to the 35 fters Oh what a cute little bus.
I had a stint in life driving for Gray Line, they had all sorts of MCI's: 7's, 8's, 9's, A's, C's, D's, E's and F's, and a few old GM's, 4104 and 4106. And to me the bigger and newer the better. A 45' E or J 4500 was by far the easiest coach to drive in every way, especially compared to a manual tranny 8V71, which could wear you out after a few hundred miles of mountains. The D's were awesome and built like tanks. The E's and J's were like spaceships in comparison, handled great, smooooth ride, huge power, great mileage, super comfortable. Granted, the E's steerable rears were like cheating and made driving in city streets and parking lots an actual joy, but I felt as comfortable and confident in any of the 45'ers as I did in the 35's. While size can be initially intimidating, most people get used to it; I also drove 220-ton capacity 2500-hp mining haul trucks for years, piece of cake once you get the feel of things. My point is, do not discount a larger rig just because of a couple feet extra length, if anything I think ground clearance might be more important with your lifestyle (I agree about the Crowns, used to live in CA, tough rigs that have to be put down like an old horse 'cause you can't kill 'em.) You might also take into account that those old manuals might take you lot's of practice, depends on the person, there were people who Gray Line tried to train who never did catch on, compensating for varying terrain, passenger/cargo loads, and even altitude. By all means though, you must get a bus, if you have some resources and are resourceful, nothing else compares.
Happy Trails.