Ok anyone know what the laws are throughout the country? I plan on installing belts for my children but what is the law for adults?
Every seat occupied must have a belt. Apparently that includes the john if you will use it while underway. How many do you think comply with all those? I would keep the kids strapped in for a couple reasons other than safety and me being charged with a felony slapping while driving angry.
John
Im not so sure. Transit Buses and School buses dont require belts, and I dont believe party buses/limousines have them. Certainly the driver is required, as I would imagine any other front seat passengers.
Im not sure how reliable this is. i just did a quick google and came up with this page which says the laws for each state http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html (http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html)
Quote from: artvonne on April 28, 2011, 02:00:53 PM
Im not so sure. Transit Buses and School buses dont require belts, and I dont believe party buses/limousines have them. Certainly the driver is required, as I would imagine any other front seat passengers.
This is what made me wonder. Either way my family will usually be belted in but I was just curious.
I am not sure what the GOV. would say, but the seats and seat belt attachment points we install need to be engineered. I did what I thought was right but would bet they would not be legal if we were called into court.
John
Well, in Oregon, not all seats have to have a seat belt.. ie - transits, etc... and I can show you 6 of my cars that do not have seat belts, and i'm not going to install them, and they are legal.. (Now if i install parts of a seat belt system in any of them, i will have to install the whole thing, but thats another story) If you run a non seat belt car, at least put in a collapable steering column...
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 28, 2011, 02:10:28 PM
Im not sure how reliable this is. i just did a quick google and came up with this page which says the laws for each state http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html (http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html)
Brat,
Thank you for that. Given that 25 states clearly require that ALL passengers have a belt how could anybody build their bus accommodating and less? Even if it isn't a law that is being driven down your throat by that infernal Fedural Gummint, might not some parents and themselves, in fact, want them? The Air Force pushed them on me in 65 and I haven' stopped thanking them for the lives of my wife and children since that Pontiac, when they were a real cars, hit us head-on with us in our VW in 66. Thank You My Gummint! Mine!
That ain't guarantee that I will vote CONservative cause they were in the corner of the Big Three and fought the law tooth and nail. The insurance companies had scads of data to show that seat-belts saved lives and prevented serious injury and harped on how much savings could be passed on to the Amurkan Consumer. Funny this is that the death and serious injury stats plummeted but we, at I, never saw any reduction in insurance costs after the law was enacted.
Love Ya,
John
I've been saved by seat belts both in a small airplane crash and a minivan crash.
It takes pretty much an idiot to drive or fly anything without belts when belts installation is possible. This also includes all my old timers.
Just my experienced opinion of course!!!
We should also install certified roll cages with proper 5 point belt support if we are going to do it right..seat belts do not properly support the human body like the 5 point will. In a bus, major reinforcement in front of the driver should also be done.
So for good seat belt installation, Im assuming they would be attached to the steel frame with a large bolt (size?) and nut. There would be sandwiched a steal plate........ or maybe this should be welded together?
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 29, 2011, 11:05:42 PM
So for good seat belt installation, Im assuming they would be attached to the steel frame with a large bolt (size?) and nut. There would be sandwiched a steal plate........ or maybe this should be welded together?
The wood floor in my old Winnie is 1 inch plus thick and they used 5/8 " bolts and 2 1/2 inch wide fender washers top and bottom. Driver and co-pilot are bolted thru the steel floor. Machine fine thread. There must bbe a spec somewhere but I go with what was done before that met it.
The problem I met was that the seat had to be mounted to the floor with the same structural complexity. I had belts in the dinette and the dinnette was seriously mounted. My swivel was never mounted and belted so it was, technically, not a legal seat while underway.
FIVE point harness? If your bus is doing 190 MPH on the Taladega back stretch then I think you would have to be completely NUTS to not be wearing a 5 point harness and have a monster cage and re-enforced front section. If you
aren't visiting Taladega then I think you are pretty much nuts, to the same degree, to consider installing all that tons of stuff. Trying to hold the line on cynical responses with this and not doing all that well. no ;D here ::)
john
There is no such thing as complete protection.
There is, however, such a thing as common sense.
My bus belts are attached to the floor. It all depends on how well your seats are attached. Bus plywood floors are not the best but anything is better than nothing.
Even if the belt installation does not meet all specs it will still slow down the final collision speed of ones body with something else. Every little bit helps.
I have hit some huge bumps in highways that probably would have thrown me out of the seat had it not been for the belt. My present belt has no shoulder strap but that will soon be fixed.
My antique airplane belt had no shoulder strap either but it still saved my life. My minivan belt also had no shoulder strap but I was in the back.
In the second half of the 60's I was working my way through college with an ambulance service I remember that with almost all roll overs there was a death. Today if you hear about a death in a rollover, it will because they didn't have a seat belt on. Seat Belts, air bags, stronger doors and all the other changes really increase you odd's of survival. In our coaches we need to make sure the frig and microwave have their seat belts on.
Art
and for sure the coffee pot... as i've tried that one more than once...
I agree with the above post that its just as important for the objects to be secured. I couldnt imagine being belted in with a fridge coming at you.
I would say that its safe to say that I have been in more collisions then most so I know the importants of the safety belt. I was just curious seeings how there wasnt any belts in the bus to begin with.
Quote from: demodriver on April 30, 2011, 09:01:29 PM
I agree with the above post that its just as important for the objects to be secured. I couldnt imagine being belted in with a fridge coming at you.
I would say that its safe to say that I have been in more collisions then most so I know the importants of the safety belt. I was just curious seeings how there wasnt any belts in the bus to begin with.
As of right now charter buses are not required by law to have seat belts as they have what is called "compartmental seating" in that with the seats in front of you will stop you and keep you in your "compartment" area in a normal collision.
However they are at this time fighting to pass laws requiring seat belts in buses in wake of all the bus roll over crashes that are making the news headlines regularly lately (last 5 yrs or so)!
Personally I am not against seat belts on buses but who is going to be responsible for making sure that passengers wear them? Or how are the bus companies going to be protected from lawsuits from Joe Idiot who got thrown out of his seat because no one forced him to buckle up? How is a bus driver to be sure all 56 passengers have their seat belt on, and keep it on during the duration of the trip?
I still admire the fact that the profession I am involved in is THE SAFEST mode of transportation in the US according to the National Highway Safety Organization!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: JohnEd on April 30, 2011, 06:00:50 AMThe wood floor in my old Winnie is 1 inch plus thick and they used 5/8 " bolts and 2 1/2 inch wide fender washers top and bottom. Driver and co-pilot are bolted thru the steel floor. Machine fine thread. There must bbe a spec somewhere but I go with what was done before that met it.
Yes, there is some federal spec somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I was replacing the old worn seatbelts in my 1970 Mercedes, I was surprised to find they had American fine-thread bolts, not metric as used everywhere else in that car. The dealer told me that it was the law to have them attached this way. Being Mercedes, they over-engineered it as only Germans can do - there were substantial welded-on reinforcements where the bolts threaded into the car's structure. I would think that if you used 5/8" fine-thread grade-8 bolts and Nylok nuts and substantial USS washers, and bolted completely through the floor's steel support members (not just through the wood floor itself), you should be OK, as long as you don't ask the bolts to be in shear too much.
All of my bus's original seats were attached with hefty bolts going completely through the 1-1/2" marine-ply floor and into the 90,000 PSI steel ribs underneath, so I guess they were as strong an attachment as possible. When I eventually build my interior I plan on attaching all the walls and cabinets using these same bolts, to make the interior as secure as the original FMVSS-compliant seats were. I also would like to frame all my cabinets with metal reinforcements, because there's no point in attaching them securely if they can still break apart and become potential shrapnel inside the bus.
Curiously, only one of the passengers in the front right seat in my bus was provided with a lapbelt. New schoolbuses are now coming with shoulder seatbelts for everyone, which is a controversial subject in itself. All the newer Mexican long-distance buses have lap belts, but there doesn't appear to be much enforcement of their use.
John
What is a Mexican long distance bus? ;D
Quote from: chev49 on May 01, 2011, 11:39:02 AM
What is a Mexican long distance bus? ;D
Arounds here it seams that the normal one is a mini van with about 20 mexicans in it. I live near redgold and I have never saw so many people pile in a vehicle!
Quote from: chev49 on May 01, 2011, 11:39:02 AM
What is a Mexican long distance bus? ;D
Usually late-model Volvo, Mercedes, Scania or MAN, with bodywork by Irizar, Marco Polo, Busscar and others. Some of them, such as Primera Plus's Volvo 9700 buses used on their limited-stop express services, have separate men's and women's loos (kept spotlessly clean by whichever driver is not driving at the time), a small galley for hot and cold drinks, very comfortable reclining seats with leg rests and foot rests, free snacks and sodas when you board, and a GPS speed monitor to ensure the 95 KMH limit is not broken. In other words, way better than The Dog here. You probably won't be sitting next to a twitching crack addict or a just-released ex-con or some pungent whacko, at least not in the first-class buses! As for the second-class buses, I don't know, but I was impressed with what I saw. Even the bus stations are less intimidating than most Greyhound terminals, especially at night. From Cancun to Playa del Carmen the ADO buses leave like clockwork every ten minutes through the day, and even they have seatbelts at every seat.
The stereotype of the Central American chicken bus, overloaded with livestock and five generations of the same family all going to market, is fast becoming just that. Many countries around the world now have bus services as good as, or better than, what is normal here.
John
FWIW, the seatbelts in high level racing cars are installed with NAS 1/4" bolts in double shear. Fastener technology is very poorly understood. The spec for the Willans formula car belts I use (essentially identical to F1, Indycar, etc.) call out a design load of 3,500 lbs for each shoulder and lap belt attachment point and 2,500 lbs for each crotch belt. 6 point belts, not 5 point, for serious race cars these days.
I wonder about seatbelts in buses, RV's, trucks. In semi's, the off-duty driver must be in the sleeper. In entertainer buses most everyone is in a bunk or on a couch. If you actually study the physics and bio-mechanics of passenger restraint, as I have done from a non-professional perspective, you would not think that a lap belt on a couch sideways in a bus is going to do you any good at all.
Brian
When I was in the minivan wreck I was strapped in lying down on the custom rear seat made into a bed. The lap belt was just the regular seat belt around my waist. The van went into some woods backwards after doing two 360s at 70 mph in the middle of an interstate.
In the airplane all I had was a lap belt. I had plans for a shoulder strap but had never gotten around to it. Crashed on takeoff when the engine failed. Speed probably about 65 mph when we hit the ground.
The airplane I have now has shoulder straps!!
Quote from: Iceni John on May 01, 2011, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: JohnEd on April 30, 2011, 06:00:50 AMThe wood floor in my old Winnie is 1 inch plus thick and they used 5/8 " bolts and 2 1/2 inch wide fender washers top and bottom. Driver and co-pilot are bolted thru the steel floor. Machine fine thread. There must bbe a spec somewhere but I go with what was done before that met it.
Yes, there is some federal spec somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I was replacing the old worn seatbelts in my 1970 Mercedes, I was surprised to find they had American fine-thread bolts, not metric as used everywhere else in that car. (snip)
From "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 209" (same as "Canadian MVSS"):
Attachments "shall have 7⁄16–20UNF–2A or 1⁄2–13UNC–2A attachment bolts or equivalent metric hardware. The hardware shall be designed to prevent attachment bolts and other parts from becoming disengaged from the vehiclewhile in service. Reinforcing plates or washers furnished for universal floor, installations shall be of steel, free from burrs and sharp edges on the peripheral edges adjacent to the vehicle, at least 1.5 mm in thickness and at least 2580 mm2 in projected area. The distance between any edge of the plate and the edge of the bolt hole shall be at least 15 mm."
You may order your new MCI with integrated lap and shoulder belts built into every seat, with accompanying instructions embroidered in the seat backs for the next row.
Many are ordering them now as the legislation is too emotional for saner heads to prevail.
In a collision that puts 20g to an auto occupant, the same collision only puts 7 g to a coach occupant.
The biggest problem in modern motorcoach roll overs is ejection, the huge glass won't keep you inside.
The big challenge, and argument, is to what g factor should the belts in the coach be built to?
There is a substantial weight penalty to overbuilding the securement for unreasonable crash forces.
And that burns more fuel and wears out tires for the life of the coach.
As for busnuts, after the driver, not much enforcement activity in this area.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
IMHO the driver and any front seat passenger should at least have a lap belt, if for no other reason than to keep them from bouncing out of their seat. After that I dont know. In a perfect world we should all be belted in and wearing a helmet and a fire proof suit. At one point Minnesota was discussing keeping kids in car seats until they were 12 years old. The level of safety is as high as the sky if you want to go that far.
My opinion is that your unlikely to get in an accident at high speed in a Bus, and not to be cruel, but any car that tangles with a Bus is going to get the short end of the stick. Ive seen the results of a few Bus wrecks, the bad ones it would not made a damn bit a difference if you had a belt. The ones that hit a car usually suffer minor damage, the car is fubar.
Common sense is still our greatest weapon. If your driving like an idiot and have kids running amuk, youve set the stage for something unfortunate to occur. If you drive like your brains attached and keep everyone seated as much as possible, your odds of trouble are greatly reduced.
One thing that never made much since to me is the places that dont require back seat passengers to wear a belt.
If i have a 400lb guy behind me I want him to be belted in if we have a head on wreck!