BCM Community

I want to see what we have here.  Fuel is scaring the $6.00 a gallon mark and we will never see decent prices again.  We are standing on the edge of America will not be the same, ever again.  We enjoyed a great many years of "Hey lets go to ???????" and just get in and go.  I for one refuse to give it up.  I love my bus and will do anything to keep her running.  At the now $4.00 I have to tell you she will only make short runs and maybe one long  run a year.  

I am sure you all have seen my answer to that.  Well lets have a poll.  Let's get some numbers.  Tell us your fears, horror stories your whatever.  I am willing to help anyone on this board get started in alternative fuels if they simply ask.  So post up your vote and let's see where we are. ???

Oh wow I clicked yes on my own poll.  We now have a 100% rating for alternative fuels.  How kewl is that?

You better start recording every single minute of your time you have to invest in WVO, in order to save a few dollars. Otherwise, your economic comparisons are inaccurate. Your time has to be worth something, mine sure is!

I'm going to burn diesel, paying "them" for collecting, processing, storing and distributing it to readily available fueling stations, conveniently located all over the road network of the continent.

Funny, short memories, wasn't the end of America supposed to happen in the early 70's when oil went nuts the first time? I don't see any pictures on the TV of shortages or line ups at gasoline stations?

But, of course, most of us weren't paying the same kind of attention in 1973 as we are now at this advanced age of 2011.

What changed our priorities? Equipment stop working??

The same crap, all over again, oil is running out, pollution will kill us, evil foreign people, government is borrowing too much money to make war and spaceships, robber barons are ruling us...

edit: forgot to include political corruption and upheaval...

Yes, 1973 and 2011 sure sound a lot alike.

Have we wondered how, oh how about 1982 and 2020, might compare....??

happy coaching!
buswarrior

one thing needed in the poll is for those of us who collection is illegal in our state  :-[

I was interested when we first started out in 04, but soon realized that, 1. since we fulltime and don't own any property anywhere, we have no place to collect and process it.  And 2. since we have a 35ft. bus we have no room for a tank for it.  We only have 2 bays, one that has our fresh and black tanks and our house batteries, and one for all off the tools, fluids, parts and other things that we need/want to take with us.  As a side note i remember reading back in the late 60's that the world was going to run out of oil in 30 years or less. Well here we are 12-15 years past that point and the population in the world has tripled or quadrupled and we are still finding oil.  And i well remember the gas lines of 73-74......wait for an hour to get a max of 5 or 10 gallons and/or only able to get it on even or odd days depending on the last number on your license plate.  Shortage my @$#! The gas companies just wanted to raise the price and said that suddenly they could not meet demand. So if the last refinery was built in 76 how can they meet demand today with 3-4 times as many vehicles on the road? :o

Oh yeah, i almost forgot,  the one i liked best was the toilet paper shortage right after the gas shortage,........like we suddenly ran out of trees.

I am so sick of this "Time is money" crap, try to go to your bank & tell them you will give them X number of your time for the mortgage and see how that flies.

Our work week is based on a 40 hr week with the occasional overtime. Anything after that 40 is our family/hobby/leisure time that we "Don't" get paid for unless we have a second job of some sort.

So those who take a very small amount of time to collect oil, let it settle (all by itself) for a period of time, pump it (usually electrically) into an automated, unbabysitted filtration system that is onboard our buses are basically doing the same thing that those that have a garden in their back yard are doing but with less effort.

We do this for many reasons, a passion for being green, wanting to do something out of the box, not wanting to contribute to the raping of our own fellow Americans, saving money or giving people something to make uneducated assumptions about. The list goes on & on.

I really do not understand why we veggers get so beat up on & looked down upon. Doing the math Conservatively I have saved over $18,000.00 running 36,000 trouble free miles in my bus, that's a nice little paying part time job if you ask me.

Guys I'll tell you my spin on the fuel we are spoiled with prices Nancy keeps screaming about the billions of dollars the big oil companies get anyway we slice this pie you can call it a tax break or subsidized fuel as they call it South America and other countries.
If the idiots in DC do away with the Tax breaks for big oil Watch Out guess who is going to pay the price 7 or 8 buck for a gal of fuel just like Europe you better be looking for a different source and I don't even like the French fry stuff our fuel is subsidized and has been for years since the 70's when oil was 3 dollars a barrel then shot up to 12 overnight and has never stopped going up yet  

good luck

Ed, I have lived in my bus full time for a long time with no home base, I am able to collect,process and store many gallons on my bus for a straight WVO system, now BIO would be a bit of a stretch.

It is very hard to find WVO here in my part of North Carolina. Seems what little is out there is being fought over by the multitudes of people wanting it. Most places use to pay to have it removed...now days they are selling it to the highest bidder or saving it for their "friends". I even see people begging for it on craigslist too. I imagine that will only get worse as diesel prices continue to rise. I guess if you were in a location where there wasn't any trouble getting it, then it would be a great alternative to diesel.

Jimmy

If I could I would like to. There is a problem on the horizon though called supply and demand. As soon as everyone starts lining up at the back door of all the restaurants, the cost of WVO production will go up, and it will be less attractive at best, or just not worth it, especially to those who are late comers and don't have the time to recoup the investment required. We don't generate enough bio to run every car using current methods, and there are good arguments against it. Bio is heavily subsidized, and many claim it takes more energy to make than we get in return. I have seen shows on oil producing algae that looks like a better alternative than current traditional methods. The bigger problem looming ever closer is the fact that we are on the doorstep of a world food crises. How do you thing the worlds true poor feel about us burning our food for fuel when they spend every waking moment trying to survive and not starve to death? I want renewable energy also, but we are making some decisions in the name of the environment that are costing lives, and not benefiting either.

Well I see Highway Yacht posted while I was typing, and I agree with what he said.

  I wouldnt mind knowing more about it, and I dont really see the big deal with wasting some of my time to save a lot of money. Like was said, no different than having a vegetable garden. But better, because vegetables in the store start  to look pretty cheap after you buy everything and screw around weeding and tilling and de-bugging and pruning and hoeing and weeding and tilling and de-bugging and pruning and hoeing and weeding and tilling and de-bugging and pruning and hoeing. And then pick and clean and cut and chop and can and store and freeze and toss. Man im tired just thinkin about it.

 I also dont think its ever been fair to put all environmentalists in the same treehugger tent. The left would have everyone believe that only they are the real tree huggers, yet its been conservatives and hunters who have set the most land aside and promoted conservation. Everyone knows we all have an interest in clean air and water, just different opinions about how to reach it, and how far to shift the scale of balance between having people employed or protecting some rare cockroach.

 
 Over 20 years ago I was interested in running a diesel on WVO, but obviously not interested enough to play with it on my own. But then, the small amount of research ive read had never shown any clear advantage, at least not when diesel was running near $2 gallon and you hear of problems with coking up the combustion chambers, clogging, etc.. I like my life simple and trouble free. If I knew the engine would burn it without any trouble, that he tanks and filters and plumbing wouldnt clog up and leave me stranded, that the oil was free or very cheap...I would try it.
 

well, here's my take on it.

I have no firsthand experience with bio-d, WVO, or even owning a diesel powered vehicle, so I'm going to sit back and watch the market develop on that for a while.

That said, we just had our 08 Grand Caravan repossessed (happily, I might add), and we're looking to retire our 9.25mpg 1967 Ford F100. At $3.69 a gallon, every trip into town costs us about $25.

We're planning on picking up a 4 or 6 cylinder Jeep Wrangler / CJ to replace the truck and a corolla / metro / swift to replace the van.  The gas mizer will be the first choice for a toad and I'm going to leave it basically stock.

The Jeep, however; is going to get the propane treatment. Around here you can get propane nearly everywhere. Regualr gas ranges from $3.59 cash to $3.80 and diesel runs from $4.19 to $4.49. Propane? $2.45 at nearly any gas station. Between price and emissions, I'll take the extra time to tweak the timing, compression, etc, for a 'purpose-built' propane motor. Give that propane naturally has an octane rating around 130, you can use a compression ratio of about 11:1, so a 'purpose-built' propane-only motor will still have very similar power levels to a gas engine.

My ultimate plan for the jeep is to convert it to a hybrid vehicle. NOT a tree-hugging Prius style hybrid, but something much more tried-and-true.

I want to convert it a locomotive-style diesel-electric, though possible power it with propane instead of diesel.

The idea, at least for the moment, is to install a diesel or propane generator in the engine bay that has sufficient power to run the vehicle full-time without needing batteries. It would power an electric forklift motor attached to the 4cyl driveline (as it's tailored for a low output gas motor). Once I have the base diesel-electric part ironed out, I'll add a removable battery bank for 'silent running'.

Why for the diesel electric route? Mainly because industrial style engines are designed to run at extreme efficiency in a very narrow power band. Because of this, they are actually more efficient and a 'vehicular' engine. This is why a train can move huge load over tremendous distance at a very low fuel/ton/mile ratio. A Jeep is ideal for a conversion like this mainly because they are a light vehicle and the 4 cylinder drive train usually has good gearing.

Here's the funny part.

I want a battery pack that is good for about 4-6 hours over unimproved roads or scrubland, like southern Idaho.  I want the battery pack for the 'final push' into good mule deer hunting areas.  ;D  In southern Idaho, many people recommend a day-long stalk into the area you want to hunt in, with your camp about 3-4 miles from where you want to hunt. The other recommended way to get in is by horseback.  Well, I don't have a horse, so that option is out. And building a silent hunting truck sounds like fun.  :P

Charley, settle down,

I said "Your time has to be worth something, mine sure is!" which is quite different from "Time is money".

Time spent on one thing, takes away from something else. So, for instance, instead of snuggling up with a fine beverage and a loved one, someone may choose to go collect WVO. That has to be worth something, wouldn't you agree?

And in much the same way, we also need to consider that to have cash, we have traded our labour for dollars to spend towards our fuel goals.

How do you propose we fairly compare the true costs of running WVO versus diesel?

You can't hide the costs of collection, which usually entail time spent searching and negotiating for some WVO, driving(fuel burn), carrying, transferring, some purpose built equipment, storage, depreciation/upkeep of all the hardware, and the labour which had to be traded against the "savings" of not pumping traditional fuel.

Buy two new tires for your WVO trailer, a bunch of fresh hose, running a pick-up you wouldn't have otherwise,etc.

By all means, run alternative fuels if you desire, the process sounds quite satisfying, but don't expect to get a free ride when comparing apples to oranges.

So, $18 000 dollars over what time frame, for what investment of time and associated costs of collection?

Convince us, some of us may join in, some of us will decide the value of the time commitment tips the balance in favour of diesel.

I'm all for informed decisions, it strengthens the hobby!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Quote from: buswarrior on April 24, 2011, 08:15:43 AM
You better start recording every single minute of your time you have to invest in WVO, in order to save a few dollars. Otherwise, your economic comparisons are inaccurate. Your time has to be worth something, mine sure is!

I'm going to burn diesel, paying "them" for collecting, processing, storing and distributing it to readily available fueling stations, conveniently located all over the road network of the continent.

Funny, short memories, wasn't the end of America supposed to happen in the early 70's when oil went nuts the first time? I don't see any pictures on the TV of shortages or line ups at gasoline stations?

But, of course, most of us weren't paying the same kind of attention in 1973 as we are now at this advanced age of 2011.

What changed our priorities? Equipment stop working??

The same crap, all over again, oil is running out, pollution will kill us, evil foreign people, government is borrowing too much money to make war and spaceships, robber barons are ruling us...

edit: forgot to include political corruption and upheaval...

Yes, 1973 and 2011 sure sound a lot alike.

Have we wondered how, oh how about 1982 and 2020, might compare....??

happy coaching!
buswarrior

I understand your point very well.  If I didn't like bio diesel and didn't have to afford it I probably would not.  We all have our cut off price when it comes to a point we will no longer be able to afford it as a luxury.  I guess I mean where is your cut off where you simply say I am not going to pay them anymore?  I know that might be a personal question but if you want to answer, what is your magical number that you decide to no longer drive your bus for pleasure any longer.  Mine has already passed.  As it stands now with WVO we are able to get in and go to Northwest New Mexico just because it is there.  Now fuel is the last thing we even have to consider affording.  I have 1500 gallons ready to right now.  Times will get tight in the future but at least I am no longer shackled to middle man's pump for now.

Quote from: buswarrior on April 24, 2011, 11:20:37 AM
Charley, settle down,

I said "Your time has to be worth something, mine sure is!" which is quite different from "Time is money".

Time spent on one thing, takes away from something else. So, for instance, instead of snuggling up with a fine beverage and a loved one, someone may choose to go collect WVO. That has to be worth something, wouldn't you agree?

And in much the same way, we also need to consider that to have cash, we have traded our labour for dollars to spend towards our fuel goals.

How do you propose we fairly compare the true costs of running WVO versus diesel?

You can't hide the costs of collection, which usually entail time spent searching and negotiating for some WVO, driving(fuel burn), carrying, transferring, some purpose built equipment, storage, depreciation/upkeep of all the hardware, and the labour which had to be traded against the "savings" of not pumping traditional fuel.

Buy two new tires for your WVO trailer, a bunch of fresh hose, running a pick-up you wouldn't have otherwise,etc.

By all means, run alternative fuels if you desire, the process sounds quite satisfying, but don't expect to get a free ride when comparing apples to oranges.

So, $18 000 dollars over what time frame, for what investment of time and associated costs of collection?

Convince us, some of us may join in, some of us will decide the value of the time commitment tips the balance in favour of diesel.

I'm all for informed decisions, it strengthens the hobby!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Do you snuggle up to a beverage & a loved one 24/7 on your off time?

If I/we use your "time is money" thing then nne of us should own a bus period.

The $18,000 was over a 3 year period but the bus set idle for many & I mean many months without being driven, my collection time has been minimal. And most of the time I'm getting 200 to 300 gallons at a crack. One time I was parked in a southern Il. town & looked out my window at the 2 restaurants and literally seen 600 gallons of oil in cubies that I got for free. Yes it's messy, yes it's work but I just call it "Sweat Equity fuel"

I have about $2,500 in my system only because of trial and error. If I were to build another (for my self) it would cost way less like maybe $1,000.00

Oil was easier to get when I was traveling more so than now that I'm based somewhere. I guess it was the fact that people could actually see that I was burning it in my bus and they were interested and wanted to be a part of what I was doing.

Interesting to note-I was looking at my fuel log, and in 2003 I paid $1.65/gallon for fuel.  These prices will not stay up-they will come back down into the mid $3.00 range-but probably not until the end of the year.  What is happening is what happened in 2008.  We have plenty of fuel, plenty of production and Libya makes only about 1% of worlds fuel. So it is all a bunch of you know what.

Last year all the Biodiesel that was produced in the Billions of gallons was good for about 8 weeks to run the country on it.  We just don't have the production-yet-to run all the cars, trucks, buses, RV's, trains, ships, airplanes on Biodiesel.  It will happen one day, but probably not in our lifetime.  Good Luck, TomC

Good point Tom! We cannot produce enough bio to take care of all the diesels on the road. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, algae is the hope right now.

Quote from: TomC on April 24, 2011, 08:44:31 PM

Interesting to note-I was looking at my fuel log, and in 2003 I paid $1.65/gallon for fuel. 

I last filled up less than 6 months ago and I only paid $2.89 a gallon for it and I thought that was high. Today at that same station the price is $4.04 a gallon. Thats a 50% increase in less than 6 months. I sure hope it does come down before too long.

Jimmy

so is anyone running a propane / diesel dual fuel setup? It's one of the modifications I'm keeping in mind to cut fuel costs.  Without the liquid draw tank and primary fuel lines, the system from Technocarb runs about $2500.

Les I have done no studies on the subject as I have been immersed in WVO for the last 4 or 5 years, literally at times.

Well I have to say I'm totally envious of those of you that can use alternate fuels!

I have seen several different systems that run successfully (Charlies included) and would love to be able to do it.

But in our business it just plain would not be feasible! Our customers demand all the luggage space available and wish there was more. And they would never go for us having to make multiple fuel stops or have to pull over to pump some from one tank to another or even have to search out a source for a special fuel.

On the rare occasions that we do have to refuel mid-trip we are slaves to the large chain "Travel Centers" where the group can all unload and get snacks, a meal, just shop or whatever while we quickly dump 150-200 gallons of over priced fuel in the tank in order to get them back on the road in a reasonable amount of time!

SO yes I like seeing those who have/do "think out of the box" show what they've done and prove it can be done and how to do it.

Who knows some day I may just say the heck with all this and convert one of the old buses just sitting here taking up space because I can't sell them for near what I need to in order to get rid of them. And I assure you if/& when I do I will be looking at using alt fuel!
;D  BK  ;D

Well thank you BK.  I can definately understand the amount of room thing.  I am thinking in my head about a 200 gallon tank.  It would be as tall and wide as the bay and take up 2 feet of the bay.  That would be 200 gallons or 1400 miles.

Quote from: wal1809 on April 25, 2011, 08:25:56 AM
Well thank you BK.  I can definately understand the amount of room thing.  I am thinking in my head about a 200 gallon tank.  It would be as tall and wide as the bay and take up 2 feet of the bay.  That would be 200 gallons or 1400 miles.  So far as pumping a small tank from a big tank.  That is just a flip of a toggle.  good old electricity can handle the rest.

I don't put a pricetag on time I spend away from work.  I get paid a salary so I couldn't work overtime to make more money.  It would be hard to work a second job because I'm almost always on-call at my regular job.  If I spend a week of spare time painting the interior of my house I don't look at the time spent as costing me anything.  If I paid someone it would cost probably $2,000+ for the job.  If I had spent more time at work I wouldn't have made any additional money.

I don't do WVO because I don't have room for more tanks and I don't want to hunt for WVO while on the road.  My big yearly trip consumes 525 gallons of fuel.  I would gladly trade my spare time for fuel rather than spend my hard earned money on fuel if WVO were practical for me.

Quote from: belfert on April 25, 2011, 11:02:25 AM
I don't put a pricetag on time I spend away from work.  I get paid a salary so I couldn't work overtime to make more money.  It would be hard to work a second job because I'm almost always on-call at my regular job.  If I spend a week of spare time painting the interior of my house I don't look at the time spent as costing me anything.  If I paid someone it would cost probably $2,000+ for the job.  If I had spent more time at work I wouldn't have made any additional money.

I don't do WVO because I don't have room for more tanks and I don't want to hunt for WVO while on the road.  My big yearly trip consumes 525 gallons of fuel.  I would gladly trade my spare time for fuel rather than spend my hard earned money on fuel if WVO were practical for me.

Well that is about as straight up and good an answer as any.  Thank you for throwing in your thoughts out there.

  While ive never ran anything but diesel, I do understand they wont start on veg oil, you have to start up on diesel and warm the oil. I guess im not following all the stopping every 100 miles to pump oil. If your running veg, you should only need a small tank for diesel, perhaps 10 gallons. Use the main tank for the veg oil.

  Has anyone done any testing to see how cold the engine or oil could be and still start? Might it be possible that if it once started on diesel it could be immediately switched to cold oil?

  And while were on the subject of testing, has anyone seen any evidence regardling coke formations in the combustion chambers or injectors?

 

Quote from: artvonne on April 25, 2011, 07:08:04 PM
  While ive never ran anything but diesel, I do understand they wont start on veg oil, you have to start up on diesel and warm the oil. I guess im not following all the stopping every 100 miles to pump oil. If your running veg, you should only need a small tank for diesel, perhaps 10 gallons. Use the main tank for the veg oil.

  Has anyone done any testing to see how cold the engine or oil could be and still start? Might it be possible that if it once started on diesel it could be immediately switched to cold oil?

  And while were on the subject of testing, has anyone seen any evidence regardling coke formations in the combustion chambers or injectors?


   If you add 2-ethyl-hexel nitrate (1-112) 1qt -112 gal, it will lite without any problems.


  Steve 5B....
 

A lot of WVOers are using there main tanks for wvo and using a small tank for diesel start up.  I just didn't want to do that.

So far as start up.  Your engine will start on cold oil.  You don't want to do that.  Cold oil is what creates coking of injectors and sticks the rings.  Cold oil does nit flow well either and can cause high pressures in the pump.

Unfortunately I have had to start on cold oil a few times, last year I ran out of both diesel & oil right at the gate of the campground I was staying at in Sturgis, the next morning I found enough oil to get it going. Not good but can be done.

My thoughts are to use 3 tanks. Use a smaller tank (about 25 gallons) for diesel, my big 150 gallon tank for vo and then another smaller tank (about 25 gallons) for the oil warming tank.... I still think a small electric water heater could be used for warming the vo.

Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 25, 2011, 08:57:58 PM
My thoughts are to use 3 tanks. Use a smaller tank (about 25 gallons) for diesel, my big 150 gallon tank for vo and then another smaller tank (about 25 gallons) for the oil warming tank.... I still think a small electric water heater could be used for warming the vo.

Unless you take the dino tank out and steam clean it that is not a good idea as the veg oil will loosen up the grunge in the bottom sending it to clog your filters. Also stainless steel or aluminum should be used for WVO as mild steel will promote some bad things.

The electric hot water tank to heat the oil on your bus again not a good idea as it will be very inefficient, all you need is to tie into you cooling system with a fphe or a stainless steel coil in your tank.

You want both your engine and oil to be hot before using it.

Thanks Charley for the tips! The 150 gallon tank I have is metal, but a magnet sticks to it so it isnt aluminum. Im thinking it might be mild steel just cuz it isnt all shinny even after cleaning (on the outside of it). But yes, one of the things on my plate before the end of summer is to pull the tank and clean it out plus install a sending unit plus change lines plus whatever else needs to be done so it can run svo instead of just bio (which Ive run a couple of long trips in the last couple years).

This is an awesome with tons of wvo fuel tanks people have put together. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/7591014102/p/1 (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/7591014102/p/1)

I belong to that forum but not really active on it much anymore but very good sight with lots of info

Charley, Ive been doing a lot of researching since you brought this up about the different types of materials for tanks. I learned about "chicken skin" aka polymerization in the tanks in doing so. There seems to be (like most things) different opinions out there about stainless steel tanks, though most people seem to agree mild steel is no good and that either aluminum or plastic is okay. One of the problems is the tank sitting partially full and air being in there.

What do you think about a collapsible bladder tank like http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=4336635&convertTo=USD (http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=4336635&convertTo=USD) It seems to me that as the vo is used that the tank would slowly collapse and air would not stand a chance..

  Dont know what happened to my post....

  Without any experience running a Detroit, does anyone know the rate of return fuel flow back to the tank? The older 5 banger Mercedes that ive owned cycled something like half gallon per minute, and it was pretty warm. After a short time the entire tank would be warm. Does the fuel returning on a detroit heat the tank at all??

  While starting on cold oil may not be such a wonderful idea, we could put a water bed heater under the tank for preheat. Pumps could cycle it through the system before starting, etc..

  And maybe, rather than switching back and forth from oil to diesel, perhaps we could simply inject diesel into the feed line to dilute the oil before shut down????

Art,DD returns 0.8 to 0.9 gals per minute @ 1800 1.2 with the high capacity pump 


good luck

Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2011, 05:45:43 PM
Art,DD returns 0.8 to 0.9 gals per minute @ 1800 1.2 with the high capacity pump 


good luck

  Does the engine heat it up much, tank get warm??

Quote from: artvonne on April 26, 2011, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2011, 05:45:43 PM
Art,DD returns 0.8 to 0.9 gals per minute @ 1800 1.2 with the high capacity pump 


good luck

  Does the engine heat it up much, tank get warm??

Yes it does

Quote from: Charley Davidson on April 26, 2011, 06:28:37 PM

Quote from: artvonne on April 26, 2011, 06:18:33 PM


  Does the engine heat it up much, tank get warm??

Yes it does

  And the pump flows fuel through the injectors? Would an aux. booster pump be able to flow oil through the primary pump? Im trying to see why exactly you would even need to screw around with with a seperate diesel tank to purge/start. If the tank is warmed, and fuel could flow through the injectors before cranking, wouldnt the injectors warm too? And once the engine warms, if its flowing almost a gallon per minute, seems you could send some past/around a coolant line to heat it more if needs be.

Art, if I understand your question right, the reason for purge and start on straight diesel is because vo sets up and thickens when cool..... you dont want that in your engine....

But not knowing anything about mechanicals, I do know that most people run coolant lines to heat the vo. This is fine except when there is a breakdown in the system and coolant mixes with the vo. My question would be, since the diesel comes back warm why not use those lines for heating the vo instead?

Im gonna answer my own question here  :P After thinking more about it, the reason people use coolant lines instead of the diesel lines is because the diesel would cool down after up and running on vo for awhile....... the hot lines would still be needed to keep the vo warm BUT this could be easily overcome by a valve and a switch so that the vo returning now heats itself. Did I make that clear  :o I understood what I meant lol

Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 26, 2011, 07:46:22 PM
Art, if I understand your question right, the reason for purge and start on straight diesel is because vo sets up and thickens when cool..... you dont want that in your engine....

  I cant see it being any more difficult to work around than walking out to start a diesel in Minnesota on a cold January day. Ive heard that in Alaska they run electric tank heaters and line heaters in addition to the engine heater, and they insulate the lines and filters. You just have to wait before starting while everything warms up, or have it on a timer so its warm when you need it. Diesel wont flow at low temps either, it gels up or wax precipitates out and clogs the filter.

  What we need to know is not the optimum running temperature, which seems accepted as 140F, but the low limit starting temperature. If a Detroit is cycling a gallon of fuel per minute back to the tank, simply running the return line alongside a warm coolant hose should warm it enough to heat the tank. Then run the feed line close to the engine so it picks up more heat before coming through the injectors. 



 

Quote from: artvonne on April 27, 2011, 05:07:59 AM(snip) If a Detroit is cycling a gallon of fuel per minute back to the tank, simply running the return line alongside a warm coolant hose should warm it enough to heat the tank. Then run the feed line close to the engine so it picks up more heat before coming through the injectors. 

    Art, the heating system for a veg-oil system has to heat the oil to working temp before it ever goes into the injection system.  And it's got to have enough heating capacity to keep the oil hot under all conditions (like when you're going down hill and the fuel flow is low) and also to make up for heating losses when the fuel is being transferred from the heater to the engine. 

    It will take a while to get *any* heat out of the from the return line into the feed line as you described.  And without a carefully designed and efficient heat exchanger, you wouldn't get nearly enough heat out of the returned fuel to bring the feed oil up to working temperature.  And, especially, you'd never be able to get enough heat to make any difference in a "cold start on veg-oil" scenario.

    I've looked at veg-oil systems a lot (I've run a diesel car for many years -- in fact, we've been an all-diesel household for almost 10 years) and I haven't found anyone who's designed a usable heating system that doesn't use up-to-temp radiator coolant to heat the coolant.  (Some people add electric heaters to "assist" just before the oil goes into the engine but the main heating energy comes from engine coolant.)

  I understand it needs some heat, but what is the low limit starting temp? Knowing the parameters would go a long ways in understanding where to start.

  Diesels arent gas engines, they dont tolerate starting and stopping as gas engines do, and large diesels like it even less. By its nature a Bus was designed to run all day and night continuously, and they like running that way. In starting, even in warm summer daytime temperatures Ive never seen a diesel that liked starting cold. They still clack and knock for a bit until the combustion chambers warm. Just knowing WVO is thick and viscous, and has a higher flash point (323-540F vs 143F), tells us its going to be much harder to crank up when cold. But once running and heated, and provided the setup gets enough heat into the fuel to burn properly, the cold start shouldnt cause to much trouble provided it warms fast and you dont shut it down until its ran long enough to run hot and clean. Therefore I would imagine short run times on oil to be much more damaging than on diesel.

  My greatest concern would be causing engine damage. Ive read for a while of WVO causing coke and carbon deposits, sometimes rapidly. While I havnt read it, its likely simular to an engine thats burning engine oil, where they start building carbon on the exhaust valves. In a diesel, if the fuel isnt burning its going to do the same thing. Therefore its likely much more important to use the right injector and injection timing, probably more advanced.

 

Why do you think diesels don't like to start and stop?  I have never heard of such a thing before.  I agree that if they are under load they can run continuously, but the advice is don't idle them, turn them off and start them again when you need them.  I'd appreciate understanding this better.

Brian

Quote from: bevans6 on April 27, 2011, 07:23:11 AM
Why do you think diesels don't like to start and stop? 
Brian

  No engine likes short trips. If an engine doesnt run long enough, it wont burn off moisture. And everytime you start a cold engine they create a moisture, to greater or lesser or degrees depending on humidity and ambient tempertures. Ive seen many engines that had so much moisture in the oil they were milky. In most cases its was a car used to drive short distance to work and back, short trips to grocery, etc., and back, being shut off and allowed to cool, then fired up again. Most times in a MN winter, the engine dont even start putting out heat and people shut em off. That really shortens engine life.

  A diesel is even worse. They are slower to warm up and thus can put more water into the oil if they dont get moving fast enough. And if they dont run long enough to burn it off, it continues to accumulate with each cycle same as a gas engine. And oil analysis shows this, diesel engines that run continuously such as OTR trucks, can put many more miles on thier oil than engines used in short cycles such as fire depts. Running hard and long is far better than easy and short. And I should mention the same applies to diesel generators but for an additional reason. They need to run at more than half rated load if you expect them to have any reasonable life expectancy. Running under light load will carbon the cylinder bores until they are so smooth they lose compression and die.

Wow, that's a whole lot of unrelated issues rolled into one...

Condensation from short trips? Anthropomorphized engines?

The WVO folks are trying to tell us that we need to have diesel in the lines if we are going to turn it off, in order that we can get it to start, and warmed up in order to support WVO ignition.

The WVO can pretty much be considered to be at risk of congealing in the lines and injectors as it cools, preventing flow, never mind trying to get it to ignite by compression ignition with no heat in the engine to help it reach ignition temperatures. You don't get any heat until you can get a fire, and you can't get it to fire without heat. Where's the heat going to come from?

And it isn't like starting a diesel in Minnesota, or Alaska, both of which are easy, and done often, in 2011.

Using your numbers - "(323-540F vs 143F)"  the smallest spread in your provided ignition temperatures between diesel and WVO is 180 degrees, or higher. So, in the cylinder, you have to get WVO at least 180 degrees hotter than diesel to get ignition.

To keep the challenge of 180 degrees hotter in perspective, using a comfortable starting temperature of 50 degrees, where even our most tired 2 strokes will start, and then go down to -40, that is only 90 degrees difference.

A running engine at 180 degrees is only 130 degrees hotter than the 50 degrees we started at.

And more O/T myth busting, winterized diesel fuel from the pump will flow, fire and run just fine down at arctic temps, using a traditional block and oil pan heater, never mind the ancient myths from when the highways in Alaska were gravel, the fibs were more numerous than the mosquitoes, or the engine owner doesn't maintain or prepare for the winter.

You have to get the WVO in the cylinder up to ignition temps, and that delta temp is really hard to  achieve without the help of an already warmed up engine.

So, in summary, the WVO folks are saying WVO is not going to be very cooperative on a 50 degree morning, we need to start on diesel.

Kindly remember that we have a responsibility to the newbies who follow, they are mislead when we emphatically repeat information that we have not verified from reliable sources.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

BW good post! Thanks!

But I would hope there wouldnt be a newbie around who would not do their homework before playing with wvo! The engines have to be started and stopped on diesel....... you cannot leave vo in the lines or the engine, or you wont have one to worry about for long. The first 5-10 miles and last 5-10 miles should be run on dino.

You're welcome.

The thread was supposed to be about WVO, and got other stuff tagged on that is not helpful to a wanna-be busnut absorbing everything they read about heavy diesel engines.

If this board is to be of any value to busnuts now, and busnuts in the future, the information we share needs to be correct.

Otherwise, we're just another lowest common denominator noisy internet place.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Quote from: buswarrior on April 27, 2011, 08:25:57 PM(snip)  You have to get the WVO in the cylinder up to ignition temps, and that delta temp is really hard to  achieve without the help of an already warmed up engine.

So, in summary, the WVO folks are saying WVO is not going to be very cooperative on a 50 degree morning, we need to start on diesel. (snip)

    Yes, those were the points that I was trying to get to (well and succinctly put - thank you).  And there is also a second point, relating to the handling of WVO.   That is that WVO contains heavy fats often called fatty esters -- chiefly glycerin and similar chemicals -- that will precipitate into solids or very thick "sludgy" liquids unless heated to a temperature in the 150-170 degree range.  All WVO systems have a method to provide this heat.  A secondary need is that WVO is much thicker than petro diesel at ordinary temperatures, it must be warmed to thin it out to be pumped, filtered and otherwise handled in the fuel system.

    Failure to heat the fuel properly can have serious effects.  If you're lucky, cool fuel will clog your filters, lines, injector pump and injectors with a soapy slime that you'll have to clean out on the side of the road.  If you're not lucky, this soapy slime will burn into a carbony coke deposit in your injector pump and injectors, resulting in a necessity to have your injector pump and injectors rebuilt or fuel spray patterns inside your engine that will burn your pistons and cylinder walls like an acetylene torch.

     So -- completely irrespective of whether you can get the engine to start on WVO or not, you must provide a way to heat WVO before it's introduced into the engine's fuel injection system.  And that system must be robust -- it must provide enough heat to assure that the WVO is still hot enough when it gets to the engine and it must be hot enough to keep that heat as it moves through the system (i.e. it must be warm enough so that if cools down a little, it's still warm enough to be pumped and burn properly).  And a running engine isn't always the same -- but this I mean that fuel in the lines may cool down a lot more if you're slowly descending a long hill at 20 degrees (F) than if you're running full speed across the desert when it's 97 degrees.  WVO fuel heaters must provide enough heat into the fuel to cover all conditions.

    And the heat from returning fuel just does not have nearly the energy to do this.  In fact, it will most notably fail in the "going slowly down the long hill at 20 degree" scenario.  That's the point I was trying to make before we got sidetracked into the "how much heat is in WVO in a cold cylinder at startup" discussion.

    So, I'd add to BW's statement to read "we need to start on diesel and we need to have WVO heated to a safe working temperature before it enters the engine's fuel handling system".

Quote from: buswarrior on April 27, 2011, 08:25:57 PM
Wow, that's a whole lot of unrelated issues rolled into one...

Condensation from short trips? Anthropomorphized engines?

The WVO folks are trying to tell us that we need to have diesel in the lines if we are going to turn it off, in order that we can get it to start, and warmed up in order to support WVO ignition.

The WVO can pretty much be considered to be at risk of congealing in the lines and injectors as it cools, preventing flow, never mind trying to get it to ignite by compression ignition with no heat in the engine to help it reach ignition temperatures. You don't get any heat until you can get a fire, and you can't get it to fire without heat. Where's the heat going to come from?

And it isn't like starting a diesel in Minnesota, or Alaska, both of which are easy, and done often, in 2011.

Using your numbers - "(323-540F vs 143F)"  the smallest spread in your provided ignition temperatures between diesel and WVO is 180 degrees, or higher. So, in the cylinder, you have to get WVO at least 180 degrees hotter than diesel to get ignition.

To keep the challenge of 180 degrees hotter in perspective, using a comfortable starting temperature of 50 degrees, where even our most tired 2 strokes will start, and then go down to -40, that is only 90 degrees difference.

A running engine at 180 degrees is only 130 degrees hotter than the 50 degrees we started at.

And more O/T myth busting, winterized diesel fuel from the pump will flow, fire and run just fine down at arctic temps, using a traditional block and oil pan heater, never mind the ancient myths from when the highways in Alaska were gravel, the fibs were more numerous than the mosquitoes, or the engine owner doesn't maintain or prepare for the winter.

You have to get the WVO in the cylinder up to ignition temps, and that delta temp is really hard to  achieve without the help of an already warmed up engine.

So, in summary, the WVO folks are saying WVO is not going to be very cooperative on a 50 degree morning, we need to start on diesel.

Kindly remember that we have a responsibility to the newbies who follow, they are mislead when we emphatically repeat information that we have not verified from reliable sources.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

If you add a fuel enhancer(oxidizer to your mixture it will eliminate the problem on combustion.

Steve 5B....

Sorry bus people I was away from the conversation for a day or two as I was in Austin attending an in service training school.

ALright what I am beginning to read on here is a little cornfusion.  Maybe I can offer a little help in the understanding of WVO systems and why they are important to construct, the right way.

Cold WVO will start an engine.  We don't heat it so it will start the engine.  Lets be very clear with this, don't run your engine on cold WVO.  In my opininion cold oil will destroy an engine.  There are no shortcuts there is no substitute.  Heat the oil to 180 degrees prior to engine entry or your going to create a problem.  This is not a problem that manifests overnight or right when you turn the key.  It takes time but it will destroy your engine.

Here is why.  In the grease we have a thick nasty substance we can call glycerin.  It has to be dealt with prior to engine entry.  YOu either use chemicals to remove the glycerin (bio Diesel) or you heat it to 180 degrees F prior to engine entry.

With bio diesel it is easy to understand the glycerin won't cause trouble because we have already removed it with methoxide (Lye and methanol).  When WVO is heated to 180 degrees and it allows a couple things to happen.  It causes a better spray pattern in the cylinder chamber causing a more even and thorough burn of all material sprayed through the injector.  WIth that being said the glycerin is dealt with right then and there, by being turned to a vapor and out the tailpipe.  If you don't heat it then glycerin will slowly leave a brown tar looking residue which will eventually become like black charcoal on the tips of the injectors and in the rings, called coking.  When that happens your engine is done for.

I have known blenders who run a blend of diesel gasoline and WVO in the main tank and that is all they do.  I will shy away from blending as I don't believe in it.  I have seen trouble with blending. 

So far as my bus I run a heated system which used engine water to heat the WVO.  I don't think throwing diesel onto the WVO to give it a little more help would be such a bad thing or bad idea at all.  I hope this helps.  W

Running WVO has pretty much been (close to) perfected, so why reinvent the wheel? Why take chances with short cuts? Why question success?

Follow what the masses of successful WVO burners tell you and you'll more than likely have great success also, play with short cuts and it's gonna bite you in the you know what $$$$$$

  I thought this thread was to learn about WVO. I did not think I needed to be schooled about starting diesels in Minnesota, in winter, which is easy, in 2011. At least not seeing as how I actually lived in Minnesota for 50 years, over 10 years of that in Duluth where I learned to drive, and have been starting diesels up there and everywhere since that time, since about 1975, long before 2011, year round. And you wanna talk about thread drift?

  To everyone else, thank you. I knew there was a problem with coking, but never have been able to find what the mechanism was. I also never knew the oil was decomposing within the system after shut down, thickening, turning to goo, paste, ive never read that in this kind of detail anywhere. In fact, ive actually learned more about the actual physical problems with WVO in the last few posts than I was ever able to find anywhere else.

  But the truthis that without knowledge, the only way we can advance is through imagination, assumptions, and trial and error. Math and science are useless without a question to ask. Only through the posing of questions, and making assumptions, can we use math to guide us, and ultimately, if were smart, we'll use trial and error to test the math. History is replete with attempts to trust math without testing.

  So without the above recognised knowledge, I assumed VO would act like any oil, heat it it thins, cool it it thickens. I had asked several times what the low limit starting temperature was, as well as mentioning coking, but with a lack of answers I was stuck making assumptions. No, I was not trying to reinvent the wheel, I was trying to understand why the systems being created had to be so complex, to see if it truly had to be so complex, or to see if there was a way to simplfy it.

  While I was chastised for ever thinking such thoughts, I would point out that in Germany, today, in 2011, they have actually been building SVO cars, single tank VO cars, that start and run on straight VO, without any diesel purging and extra tanks and valves and pumps and whathaveyou. So while some may think im an idiot for supposing such a thing was ever possible, im really not the only idiot who thinks so. But I have no idea how their are getting around the problems being discussed in this thread.

Hello Art.  I am glad we are talking and I am glad your thinking out of the box.  Thinking out of the box is what got us all interested in Alternative fuels in the first place. If Rudolph Diesel had not thought outside the nasty little box we would not be talking about wvo systems today.  Graham Lehming thought outside the box when he came up with using a vacuum venturi to drive off the methanol in bio diesel, thus allowing the soap to drop out of the bio diesel without washing it.  Now that my friend was nothing short of genius.  I am sure people scoffed at his idea in the beginning.

So please never think I am laughing, scoffing or dismissing your thoughts or questions.  If you are going to set up your system I will be more than glad to lend what I have learned so far.

Now as for the German vo systems.  My jettas glow plugs are lightning fast.  They only turn on for maybe a half a second.  I am thinking they figured out how to heat the vo instantly at the injectors.

This photo is of the WVO system I built for my bus.  It might seem complicated but in reality is is very very simple.  I took an old piece of angle iron bed frame.  I welded a cap at either end so I could bolt it in place.  There was all that unused space between the engine and the door so I decided to use it.

Let to right along the angle iron.  Both of the 3 way valves are on the far left.  A vacuum gauge, two 12V relays to operate the valves, a filter housing from Northern tool, tucked behind it on the other side of the frame is a flat plate heat exchanger.  Today I will take pics of the rest and throw them in here.  I will take photos of the surge tank and the other heat exchanger and the big tank and its plumbing.  What you see here is the meat of it all though.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_1386.jpg&hash=9769ab4956f6f496a2966a6494d70331536e3fc4)

That picture is a little bit on the crap quality side.  I will take some better photos when I can.

The original post was a poll.  Take a look at the numbers on who is WVOing and who wants to be a WVOer.  I would say pretty impressive in the few numbers of votes.

Quote from: wal1809 on April 29, 2011, 01:46:51 AM(snip) Now as for the German vo systems.  My jettas glow plugs are lightning fast.  They only turn on for maybe a half a second.  I am thinking they figured out how to heat the vo instantly at the injectors. 

At one time the Common Market Rapporteurs (the committers that set the Euro standards) were looking very hard at Pure VO which they defined as cleaned, strictly-defined, never-used oil from canola (they call it rapeseed).  This oil has a much narrow range of specifications than WVO (when you're using WVO, you're burning VO -- mostly soy -- mixed with chicken fat, anti-oxidant additives, moisture, and "other things") and one of the most strictly-controlled specifications is viscosity.  That light-weight and narrow range of viscosity is down much closer to petro-diesel and is one of the characteristics that made this particular oil attractive to their development process.  It may be that these German vo systems are set up to use this finely-controlled vegetable oil rather than WVO (I don't know this for sure; I haven't followed those developments for years but that's how they seemed to be going a few years ago.)

(Please note:  This post is intended to provide info on a certain aspect of the topic that we were talking about; i.e., operation of a vehicle on vegetable oils, including the various parameters and operational situations that make a difference to the way that these systems work.  It's not intended to argue with anything that anyone already knows or insult anyone's background in running their own vehicles.)

You're missing a poll option for me.  I would consider it, but I have no available bay space for another tank (or two).  I could use more cargo space as it is and I already have two of my three bays basically empty.

Wal, what are those hoses made of that you are using? If they are rubber they will cause you problems, I saw what rubber did in Bill Glen's system he was running on his generator and it was not pretty, There were little balls of rubber in his filter when I took it apart. Where my system leaks or I spill oil the rubber seals on my bay doors are turning mushy. I used either titanium line or aluminum on everything that the oil touched or went through.

Hey CharlieD. It is a chemical rated fuel hose. 

Alright!!!  We made it to Freer,Texas a little while ago.  250 miles on WVO.  I still get a kick out if running on trash. 

The while way down here my wife was watching that royal wedding.  Ohhhhhh!!!!!  I finally turned the volume up on the tv for the back up camera.  I could hear the engine and she sounds good on WVO.  Love hearing that Jimmy at or around 60 mph.

  Myself, I would want those fuel hoses far, far away from that turbocharger. Just sayin.

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on April 29, 2011, 01:09:26 PM

Quote from: wal1809 on April 29, 2011, 01:46:51 AM(snip) Now as for the German vo systems.  My jettas glow plugs are lightning fast.  They only turn on for maybe a half a second.  I am thinking they figured out how to heat the vo instantly at the injectors.  

At one time the Common Market Rapporteurs (the committers that set the Euro standards) were looking very hard at Pure VO which they defined as cleaned, strictly-defined, never-used oil from canola (they call it rapeseed).  This oil has a much narrow range of specifications than WVO (when you're using WVO, you're burning VO -- mostly soy -- mixed with chicken fat, anti-oxidant additives, moisture, and "other things") and one of the most strictly-controlled specifications is viscosity.  That light-weight and narrow range of viscosity is down much closer to petro-diesel and is one of the characteristics that made this particular oil attractive to their development process.  It may be that these German vo systems are set up to use this finely-controlled vegetable oil rather than WVO (I don't know this for sure; I haven't followed those developments for years but that's how they seemed to be going a few years ago.)

(Please note:  This post is intended to provide info on a certain aspect of the topic that we were talking about; i.e., operation of a vehicle on vegetable oils, including the various parameters and operational situations that make a difference to the way that these systems work.  It's not intended to argue with anything that anyone already knows or insult anyone's background in running their own vehicles.)

I know a handful of people running their cars on veg oil, and they are all using new oil poured straight into the standard fuel tank. One friend of mine dilutes the oil with paraffin beforehand to adjust the weight of the oil to match that of diesel, while other people I know don't bother with this, and don't report any problems. I hear that certain cars are known as being 'good' for veg oil without any modification, while others have problems with the oil clogging their fuel filters. But I don't know anyone who does all this extra-tanks-special-valves-pre-heating stuff. Not saying that it isn't the right approach to using WVO (which is of course much cheaper to acquire than new oil), but I do also wonder what would happen if you got pulled over or stopped at a vehicle inspection checkpoint. Once they'd seen all that extra plumbing on your fuel system you'd need to be able to offer very good proof that you'd been religiously recording your fuel usage and sending off the correct road fuel tax payments. They tend not to have a sense of humour about tax evasion

Jeremy

Running wvo is not tax evasion.

Quote from: wal1809 on April 30, 2011, 03:36:29 AM
Running wvo is not tax evasion.

Possibly you're right, but I'd be interested in understanding your logic


Jeremy

In Texas I pay a flat fee added into my yearly registration called "road and bridge tax".  I have talked to the State and there is no tax for burning used vegetable oil as fuel.  There is no tax evasion here.  There is no permit required for carrying wvo unless you carry 400 plus gallons at a time.

Texas is very different than many other states and countries.  Although quickly becoming ruined like the rest of them.  I'll give you an example.  I got a call from my neighbor asking when the last time we had our septic systems pumped.  We have them done at the same time to get a better deal.

I asked why amd he said he got a court summons because has thr new annarobic (sorry about the spelling).  To get a permit for it he had to present to the county a contract with a service company.  That company will rat you out to the county if you don't have the system pumped every 2 years.  When you get the summons if you go without a pumped receipt your gonna get fined.

My system is grandfathered.  I can go forever without it.  I don't like the new system.  I don't like government knowing about when I pump my poop and telling me what to do.

Based on something I heard on the news today, used cooking oil is now becoming a scarce resource that is collected and sold to commercial re-distillers, and the deals are being done by the chain restaurants.  People are now having to secure their cooking oil because it's getting stolen.  My instinct is that the window for collecting cooking oil at free or very low cost is closing and commercial utilization of the resource is right around the corner.  Of course, nothing is preventing anyone from going into this on a commercial basis, aside from licensing and regulation, I would suspect, and if you factor in the true costs of recycling the resulting fuel will cost probably close to what diesel does, since there will be little incentive to sell it below a market driven price point.  What are you all thinking about this angle?

Brian

This is what we refer to as the oil wars.  People have been stealing grease for a while now.  People are being charged for thr grease.  I am lucky and still get it free.  There is a place around the corner from me that I am going to offer a dollar a gallon.  It is used once for frech fries and discarded.  They are caterers and have no way to use the grease over and over. 

So far as the price comparison twix pump fuel and wvo.  It is a black and white comparison.   .10 a gallon finished product WVO vs $4.00 a gallon for pump fuel.  At a dollar a gallon 1 mile from my house I will still be way out in front.

My thinking was that if the majority of the used oil supply starts to be owned by commercial recyclers (all they have to do is offer something for it, more than you are willing to offer, or sign a contract with head office, or "rent" the clean oil to the restaurant so they don't actually own it) then the price becomes what people will pay, not what it costs to convert.  I think people who don't have your skills would happily pay $3.50 a gallon if real diesel is $4.00...   When the process becomes commercialized all kinds of costs creep in, but the profit will be there so there will be people starting the businesses to take advantage of that.  This is what I mean by "is the window for this kind of thing as a backyard, personal endeavour closing?"

Brian

I don't think it is closing, changing but not closing.  My fantasy is to grow my own and be completely out of the loop of it all.  On another forum there is a farmer who sets aside 100 acres for canola.  He is almost completely off of pump fuel.  After pressing the oil out of Canola he feeds the pulp or seedcake to his cows.  How kewl would that be? 

All he would have to do is start to harvest the methane from the cow farts to run his car or his cooking stove (like propane or natural gas).  Then he would have to canola for oil, the feed for the cows, the manure for fertilizer, the methane for fuel, the cows for milk, cheese and the occasional steak, or burger, and away he goes...  I wonder if you could really get it to a closed loop.

Brian

Quote from: bevans6 on April 30, 2011, 07:54:50 AM
All he would have to do is start to harvest the methane from the cow farts to run his car or his cooking stove...

Auntie Entity had the system working well, except they used pigs rather than cows, and they couldn't really be called cars any more

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mattblackrat.com%2FAuntyInAction.jpg&hash=1e3738a0e4fb7d46ea5aa6af558dc7557d50f2cc)

(It's a Mad Max reference folks. All about what happens when the diesel runs out)


Jeremy

Hello Wal,

Sent you a PM.

Kevin

The highest diesel fuel prices in Europe last week were in Norway, where they were paying an average of just over $10USD/ gallon (US). One would think that if WVO could be produced and used effectively, it would be our European friends that would lead the way.

OTOH, my new tires will set me back ~$3000, and the awning will be somewhere north of $4k. I figure the money I saved converting my RTS compared to buying a commercial conversion will now be spent on the luxuries, like fuel. I retain the right to change my mind when diesel hits $10/gallon though... :-\

Larry H.

Welcome to the forum.  I am glad your 1st post (?) was on the wvo thread.

If fuel prices get to $10.00, around here, not only will bus prices be only scrap value, my Big Mac will cost me $14.99

Quote from: chev49 on May 01, 2011, 07:12:55 AM
If fuel prices get to $10.00, around here, not only will bus prices be only scrap value, my Big Mac will cost me $14.99

yeah but after buying the big mac you can go out back and raid the grease bin for the grease that came out of it while it was being cooked!
;D  BK  ;D

Wal, Do you have a couple inches of that hose you could put in a peanutbutter jar full of wvo for a test? Does the chemical list include veg oil in it as one of it's resistants to? Just wondering as I've heard from a few guys that say it doesn't hold up. Veg oil is some weird stuff when it comes to compatibility with rubbers (& no I don't mean condoms) lol

I need to run some more fuel line so I'd like some more info on what your using.

Quote from: Charley Davidson on May 01, 2011, 08:16:24 PM
Wal, Do you have a couple inches of that hose you could put in a peanutbutter jar full of wvo for a test? Does the chemical list include veg oil in it as one of it's resistants to? Just wondering as I've heard from a few guys that say it doesn't hold up. Veg oil is some weird stuff when it comes to compatibility with rubbers (& no I don't mean condoms) lol

I need to run some more fuel line so I'd like some more info on what your using.

I don't know the brand off the top of my head but I will look when I get to the house.  I sank a piece in a baby food jar 6 months ago and it is still holding up.  I know for 35 bucks greasecar sells a roll of chem hose rated for veg oil.  It is the red fuel line.  If you get on their site they have it displayed in a pic.  I can't remember how long the roll is right now.

I have the problem Highway Yacht has--there's absolutely zero WVO locally to collect.  Every source is being paid for it, and the prices are nearing the point that after refining to bio-diesel, it's cheaper to just buy normal diesel at $4.10/gallon.

I'd love to make bio-diesel, and if anyone knows of a source for the WVO in the southeast, drop me a line.  I'll happily come to collect it.

If your going to run a bus on alternative fuel I would suggest WVO instead of bioD.  It would be too costly, time and money wise, to run bioD in a bus.

Quote from: fre1102 on May 03, 2011, 05:40:47 AMI have the problem Highway Yacht has--there's absolutely zero WVO locally to collect.  Every source is being paid for it, and the prices are nearing the point that after refining to bio-diesel, it's cheaper to just buy normal diesel at $4.10/gallon.

I'd love to make bio-diesel, and if anyone knows of a source for the WVO in the southeast, drop me a line.  I'll happily come to collect it. 

I live in North Carolina (like Highway Yacht does) and the situation near me is the same ... except all the biodiesel is being sold for $1 gallon more than petro diesel.

There are lots of creative ways to obtain wvo.  Recycle centers at the city, pool family and friends to obtain small amounts over time, run a craiglist add with a email contact offering to pick up locally during Thanksgiving and Christmas when everyone is frying turkeys.

When I first got into this I could not find oil.  I decided it was out there and I was going to find it.  I set up a trailer with collection barrels and I got in the truck.  I went from restaurant to restaurant just talking to people.  I printed on copy paper what I was doing and people went for it. It was not easy, I simply made it happen. 

bio-diesel is supposed to be more like diesel then wvo and the same kind of tolerances to rubber or other materials which is why there is no modifications needed to run bio diesel. But, of course, as fat as Americans are we just arent fat enough to power all the diesels with wvo Sure there are shortages of wvo, and it will get worse as the cost of diesel rises. Wvo is nothing more then a quick fix if you can get it. It is a commodity now, not just trash.

The marketplace can be a wild and wonderful thing.  Years ago you could get sawdust and shavings for horse bedding for almost nothing.  When we last had horses four years ago it was up to about $20.00 a yard.  As the demand for animal bedding and engineered wood product rose, so did the price.

WVO is the same way.  Not only is there a demand as a fuel source but it is being re-refined for other purposes.

Hey wal1809...I got a question for you:
If I was to go use BioDiesel in my 1982 MCI9 6v92, what would I have to do to convert the existing setup to BioDiesel?

Thanks David

To run bio diesel you don't have to do anything but carry a few filters with you.  Bio diesel is a solvent that will strip the years of dirty diesel build up out of the fuel tank and send it to blck the filters.   When you feel a slight power loss just change the filters.  I had to do it twice on my Excursion but after that I was good to go.

WVO (waste vegetable oil) on the other hand you have to replicate the fuel system that is in place and add heat sources to heat the WVO.  My suggestion for a bus is to run WVO.  The processing of the oil is a whole lot easier and it is nearly free.  Time will take a whole lot of nasty out of the oil, then with minimal work you can do the rest with ease.

I have a 300 gallon tank in the barn that I operate the bus with.  You can see the oil speration inside.  That oil has been filtered to 5 micron and dewatered.  I really didn't do much to it at all but leave it alone and pump it through a filter.

Tell me what your interested in and we can talk about it.

Quote from: wal1809 on May 03, 2011, 08:19:19 AM
There are lots of creative ways to obtain wvo.  Recycle centers at the city, pool family and friends to obtain small amounts over time, run a craiglist add with a email contact offering to pick up locally during Thanksgiving and Christmas when everyone is frying turkeys.

Doesn't the fuel to pick up small amounts of WVO negate any savings from burning the WVO?  I guess if you have a diesel vehicle that is also running an alternative fuel you can get the WVO for nearly nothing.  The problem is the limited number of small vehicles that are diesel powered.  I had a VW diesel, but when it came time for a different vehicle I could no longer afford another diesel vehicle.  The price has gone sky high due to emissions.

Quote from: belfert on May 03, 2011, 05:06:02 PM

Quote from: wal1809 on May 03, 2011, 08:19:19 AM
There are lots of creative ways to obtain wvo.  Recycle centers at the city, pool family and friends to obtain small amounts over time, run a craiglist add with a email contact offering to pick up locally during Thanksgiving and Christmas when everyone is frying turkeys.

Doesn't the fuel to pick up small amounts of WVO negate any savings from burning the WVO?  I guess if you have a diesel vehicle that is also running an alternative fuel you can get the WVO for nearly nothing.  The problem is the limited number of small vehicles that are diesel powered.  I had a VW diesel, but when it came time for a different vehicle I could no longer afford another diesel vehicle.  The price has gone sky high due to emissions.

How much money are we talking to convert for WVO?

the system I would recommend comes from frybrid http://www.frybrid.com/index.htm (http://www.frybrid.com/index.htm) the price you pay would probably depend on what type and size fuel tanks and how sophisticated you want to get with your system. I looked into it a few years ago and for me it was going to run about $3000 but I have heard $50 would get you started with a more manual system.

This is a pretty good read to give you an idea of what is required and all the goodies you can add to the system to make it a no brainer http://www.frybrid.com/frybrid.htm (http://www.frybrid.com/frybrid.htm)

That is a good place to read and get familiar with the system you need to install.  I scavenged parts from Brother in laws, junk yards, garage sales ect.  My system was far less than $3000.
Large holding tank was $100-free tank, but refabricated to what I wanted cost me $100
Used smaller surge tank $60
Harbor freight pump $39
Valves from greasecar $300
Fittings for valves $15
2 heat exchangers $200
Filter and filter head $20
Pex pipe was $33
Fuel line $50
Call it a little over $800 or lets say $1000 for stuff I have forgotton about.  I don't know about frybrid's valves, if they are large enough for a bus.  THe first set I bought from Omar sales via internet were not at all large enough.  The ones I bought from Greasecar.com have plenty of flow to run the bus.

Chris Goodwin, the owner of frybrid, has a bus..... as I recall it is a neoplan. His is set up with his own kit. I was going to have a kit completely made so I could just pop it in. But that was before I found out how hard it is to get the vo out here and then my brother started making the bio up in Idaho, so I never followed thru and bought the custom kit.

I am a fan of using heated filter systems if an indicator system at the driver seat is installed.  It would be trajic to start off on a Vegas trip and hit the switch and not being able to tell how hot your fuel is getting or if it is getting heated at all.

Let's throw this out there as well.  A lot of peole tried to talk me into a closed loop system.  Only a couple people talked to me about using a surge tank.  I had already installed the closed loop and was reluctant to breaking it down.  what they were telling me finally registered and I installed the surge tank.  I still have people telling me to get shed of the tank and go with a closed loop.  Not Gonna do it!!!  

The problem with a closed loop is if you, when you get air in there you can't get it out.  With the surge tank you don't have to bleed the air manually it just dissapates upon fuel returning to the surge tank.  It is also a lot easier to heat the small amount of oil up to a very high temp.  Also your going to have to carry oil in a bay.  That is say 15 to 20 feet from the pump in the engine.  Sucking cold oil that far through a line has got to be hard on that pump in the engine.  I really don't think it will operate very well trying to pull cold oil through the fuel line that far.  I beleive it would throw off your flow rate too far.

Quote from: happycamperbrat on May 04, 2011, 11:41:31 AM
Chris Goodwin, the owner of frybrid, has a bus..... as I recall it is a neoplan. His is set up with his own kit. I was going to have a kit completely made so I could just pop it in. But that was before I found out how hard it is to get the vo out here and then my brother started making the bio up in Idaho, so I never followed thru and bought the custom kit.

I ahve not been over there in a while HCB.  Is that $3000 with a tank or without?

like I said, it was several years ago..... Im sure the price has probably gone up. But yes that did include a tank. He had a tank that someone had custom ordered but never paid for or picked up and the tank was just sitting in the back of the shop he was going to sell me with the kit.

REally that is not bad for a bolt in system.  You can put it in is a weekend and be done with it.

I utterly unendorse the frybrid system after actually giving them money for one and not recieving the kit or a refund or a response!

Dern HCB how long has it been since no contact?  There are options to force them to pay back or provide a product.

lol Wal!! It hasnt been as long as this thread is old thankfully  ;) I jsut brought this back up because when I was searching online, I did come across it and it made me sick to my stomach for something to be floating around in internet land with me endorsing frybrid.

I used to be a strong supporter of his system even though I didnt use it. I read nothing but good reviews about it and read about many happy customers, no real complaints ever. BUT that was "back in the day", even before I had my bus. From what I have been able to gather, it seems, he did have a bangup good product and took care of his customers too! But something happened (maybe the market fell out? I dont know, but something) and around 2005-2006 he began screwing over his new customers... at least MANY of them. THEN apparently he was getting a bad rap even on his own forum so he started banning people and deleting threads to make himself look better. He also set up at least one business to be the "fall guy" and take the blame for non shipment or other shipping problems. It just stinks!!! Bad, bad, bad!!

But as for me, I ordered an off the shelf (non customized) kit for my 6.2l suburban that he said he had 4 of sitting on the shelf along with the tanks. I ordered and payed on May 15, 2012 by cash bank deposit into his account. I was told (both on the phone when I ordered it and in email) that it would be shipped within a couple days. After multiple broken promises and emails, it became apparent to me that he was not going to send the kit or I was going to have to wait f-o-r-e-v-e-r June 11, 2012 which is when I first demanded a refund, then for the first time I got absolutely no response from him. I never would have ordered the kit if I knew I was going to have to wait for it like this. Since that time I have phoned him once and emailed him 2x demanding a refund. He has refused to respond and deleted my post early this month inquiring how long it takes to get a shipment normally. Now though, since I went public in the last couple of days, he has deleted every post I EVER made at his forum and banned me "forever" with "no reason specified"!

Moderator Note - Edited per HappyCamperBrat's request.

I think he will send it but it may take some time.  I read the other thread about all of us banding together and hammering his website forum.  I am in, all for one and one for all here.  That is internet fraud.  You are allowed by law to report, in your jurisdiction, fraud.  I don't know if this fits the technical end of fraud.  In Texas it would not be a criminal case it would fall more under a civil case.  Translate that into it can be reported to police, but where it goes from there is what is important for the outcome of your case.  The police are only going to be able to assist with a criminal case.

Maybe there is an attorney on here who is willing to jump in on the "All for one and one for all" bandwagon.  Somebody needs to hammer that jackarse's arse to the barn door.

It needs to happen guys...seriously. We need a backbone...Teresa, please keep on pursuing this...

I got notice this morning that the Washington State Attorney General is handling this now! Will let you all know how it turns out! Wish me luck  :)

Quote from: happycamperbrat on June 21, 2012, 10:19:38 AM
I got notice this morning that the Washington State Attorney General is handling this now! Will let you all know how it turns out! Wish me luck  :)

That is great. I do look forward to hearing how it turns out.

Oh yes. Chris Goodwin, if you happen to find this thread. Remember, don't mess with Texas, and don't mess with Theresa either :D.

John

LOL Actually, it is "dont mess with Teresa's family!" Losing the money has set us all back, and I do not take kindly to that  ;) But the support of the people in this forum and all the many people who got hurt before me are what drives me to continue.

I just signed for a large package delivered by UPS from Frybird. I dont know if all the parts are there yet, nor do I know if the parts work. I only accepted it at this point because I can resell it if nothing else for 1/2 what I paid and get some of my money back. I still do not trust Chris at all! There is another guy who has been waiting slightly longer then I, he sent a check and Chris has deleted his posts asking about his kit. Chris never had the courtesy to contact me saying he was actually sending it with the tracking number. I honestly believe that the only reason I got anything is because of the complaint to the Washington State Attorney General and to the men in this forum!! Thank you for sticking by me and helping thru this, especially everyone who sent letters!!

 ;) Teresa(sorry for misspelling your name numerous times) :o,

This is great news!   ;D When you are done inventorying the kit, please let us know the results. 

Steve Toomey
PAbusnut

Tomorrow after work my son is going to video tape me opening up the package and unpacking it. I will upload it!