I figured you guys would enjoy this. This is our crew chief's rig from our volunteer building jobs. He sold his dodge pickup and bought this HDT truck and carries a smart car on top and drags a fifth wheel behind it. He fabricated the deck so that when not hauling the car he can haul lumber and other stuff. He had to retitle the truck in Texas as a motorhome which required a bed, cooking device (microwave) and a fridge. It is a Volvo with an Eaton 10 speed autoshift. Jim Sheppard, he loves the auto shift.
Jimmy's car loading (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKmSU_EHRjY#)
David
Even my mom liked this one! Great looking setup!
That looks good on paper until a smart DOT cop measures the SmartCar at 106.1" which is 4.1" over the maximum width of 102" (minus mirrors that don't count) and sites him for hauling an overwidth load without an overwidth permit. But-maybe he'll be lucky and not get caught for a while. Good Luck, TomC
Maybe the bumper can be removed while the car's on the truck, to shorten the car by 4"?
TomC, depends on the model year. up untill a year or two ago they were slightly shorter. This is actually a common setup among full timers.
Quote from: TomC on April 15, 2011, 09:53:04 PM
That looks good on paper until a smart DOT cop measures the SmartCar at 106.1" which is 4.1" over the maximum width of 102" (minus mirrors that don't count) and sites him for hauling an overwidth load without an overwidth permit. But-maybe he'll be lucky and not get caught for a while. Good Luck, TomC
This is one reason I bought a 96" coach. I knew I would be adding an awning, and on a 102" coach that would exceed the max width.
the awning counts? How do the pro converters like Marathon handle awnings on their 102" wide product?
Kevin Warnock
http://KevinWarnock.com (http://kevinwarnock.com) - my blog
Quote from: Kevin Warnock on April 16, 2011, 12:24:16 AM
the awning counts?
Yes, the awning counts. As do window awnings, slide toppers, vent caps, and anything else that protrudes beyond the sides of the coach. The only legal exceptions are "legally required safety devices." So your side mirrors can protrude, as can marker lights and reflectors.
Quote
How do the pro converters like Marathon handle awnings on their 102" wide product?
The good ones set them back far enough so they do not extend further than the sides. If you look at a Marathon you will see the awnings are actually mounted to the roof, and the face of the awning in the closed position is flush with the coach side.
AFAIK, all the major converters do it this way. When we put our awnings on, we set them back further even then that.
Stick-and-staple aftermarket shops are a different story, I see all manner of stuff bolted to the sides of rigs by Camping World and other shops. If those items put the rig over 102" (96" in some states), the rig becomes over-width. Camping World doesn't get the ticket -- you do. Technically, you can be red-tagged and not permitted to move the rig until you either correct the width (remove the offending item) or get the proper permit including any required pilot car, CDL driver, etc. to move the rig out of the offended state. FWIW.
I have never heard of anyone being stopped and cited for this personally. But it probably has happened at least once, and the fact that lots of people get away with it isn't a defense. Also, if you ever hit anything, you can be sure that someone will measure -- if not law enforcement, then somebody's attorney.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
As an aside...I saw a trucker in Hobe Sound, FL at that scale being told that to get the permit he needed, (Don't know exactly what it was he needed) it had to be the original from Tallahassee, not a copy. It is several hundred miles from Hobe Sound to Tallahassee. He would have to go get it...or wait for the mail, fed-ex or something.
I personally wanted to tell the Revenue Enhancement Agents what a crock that was...I would have wound up in jail!
Jack
AFAIK, all the major converters do it this way. When we put our awnings on, we set them back further even then that.
"AFAIK," means what?
BCO
As Far As I Know (At least that is my take on it)
Rod
David, I love it!!!
There was a vendor that used to show up at some of the FMCA rallies (saw him twice at Farmington NM) that had a pretty unique setup. It was a cabover with a huge drom box behind the cab and then a small deck (maybe 4 feet) behind that. He had a bunch of shelving in the drom box to hold inventory and then drove a small Jeep into the box (lengthwise). Then hooked up a very large 5th wheel trailer. It was a light beige color as I recall. Some folks would call it kind of "primitive", but I thought it was great and very efficient in terms of space utilization.
I am glad to hear that he liked his AutoShift. I really like mine as well, even though it takes longer to accelerate (boost drops with every shift). I certainly have a gear for every situation. My wife's cousin was a truck driver who really gave me a hard time about not having to work the stick. His company assigned him to an AutoShift truck and he took quite a ribbing from the other drivers. After a rather short time, he learned to love it.
Jim
Quote from: rwc on April 16, 2011, 03:31:26 AM
As Far As I Know (At least that is my take on it)
Rod
Thanks I appreciate it.
BCO
Jim,
He paid $16k for the truck. It had aboit 600k miles on it. He sold his dodge 3500 for $21k and the sale paid for the Volvo and the deck fabrication.
David
I bet the cost of parts is a bit more on the Volvo than the Dodge but the Volvo probably has a better ride. I have never been in a bad riding Volvo.
Nothing like the ease of which a truck can be maintained and repaired compared to a bus-one of the big main reasons I'm using my Kenworth cabover for my truck conversion. It's higher so I can get my fat belly underneath easily and everything is servicable by a normal truck mechanic. It will create some very relaxed cruising as compared to when I drive the bus wondering if it is going to break-even though I've rebuilt everything in the engine compartment including the transmission, rear end, new air bags, new steering gear. And being 40ft, anyone can drive it since (at least here in Calif.) it is considered a 3 axle house car. Good Luck, TomC
Buying a semi is like buying a bus, or at least it was a few months ago. Market in the toilet. Especially for trucks with over 500K miles on them. If you get one that has had good fleet maintenance, they should have minimal problems.
Yes, the upkeep is higher, but the Dodge upkeep is a tad on the high side if any of the major diesel parts go bad. If it was an automatic, he would have to change the converter at about 100K miles and most of the transmissions did not last all that long.
The issue I always think about with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck pulling a big trailer is the brakes. If the trailer brakes would fail to apply for some reason, they would be toast. With the class eight truck, they should be able to control it very well. The big truck also will likely have jakes and that will make a huge difference on the hills.
Jim
To add to Sean's post, over dimensional permits are not obtainable in some states if the load is "reduceable"; in other words, if something on the load or vehicle can be removed to bring it within legal dimensions. Any half way observant officer following that rig could see that the Smart put it overwidth. That said, not having to cross a scale will probably go a long ways towards not getting caught.
If you would like to see the world of HDT trucks go to this Escapee's site:
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?s=b694c6280f41f034971300bbc323f564&showforum=32 (http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?s=b694c6280f41f034971300bbc323f564&showforum=32)
These guys are serious RV haulers!
I should have mentioned earlier that the HDT community discusses Smart Car mounting regularly, and most who are carrying the newer models mount them at an angle to keep the width legal. The specific angle is well known in the community, and a friend of ours who is converting a Kenny showed it to us -- it's pretty steep actually. He put a winch in to load the car. He is also cleverly using the space under the tall end of the mount for his generator, which is actually a truck APU; pretty slick, actually. He used to have a Neoplan and is often lurking on this forum, so perhaps he will chime in.
As for "AFAIK," rwc nailed it: As Far As I Know. I tend to use several of these abbreviations when posting; usually if you just Google them you will get them spelled out:
FWIW: For What It's Worth
IOTW: In OTher Words
BTW: By The Way
YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary
TANSTAAFL: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
JMO: Just My Opinion
IMO: In My Opinion
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion (where "humble" is usually tongue-in-cheek)
HTH: Hope This (or That) Helps
There are hundreds if not thousands of such abbreviations. Most originated in the early days of text-based email; I used them in the 70's. They became more widely known in the Internet era, and now are enjoying a resurgence with SMS (texting). If you hunt around the 'net you will find many lists of them, so no need to clutter the thread here with any more of it.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I love it... 'the specific angle is well known in the community'
Kevin Warnock
http://KevinWarnock.com (http://kevinwarnock.com) - my blog
Quote from: Kevin Warnock on April 16, 2011, 11:01:00 AM
I love it... 'the specific angle is well known in the community'
Yeah, meaning that I, myself, do not know it. But what my buddy told me is that someone on the HDT forum did all the math, and it is well-known over there that if you build a ramp at such-and-such an angle and set the wheels of the car at precisely such-and-such a distance from the end, then the entire car fits within the 102" footprint. As I said, the angle is pretty steep, like maybe 20° or so. Not for the faint of heart if you are going to try to drive the car up on it. My buddy is using a winch. Or maybe a wench...
Probably if you did a search on the Escapees HDT forum that someone linked earlier in the thread you can dig up the "well-known" angle.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Here is another version of home made smart car crazyness
You guys need to measure the fender flares,rub rails and bumpers on some of these buses they are not even close to a 102 inches wide closer to a 107 wide was the same deal on a 96 inch wide bus too.
I have no idea where just the mirror and lights can exceed 102 inches wide came from if so bus manufactures are in trouble they sure put a bunch on the road from the factory with fender flares lol there has to be a loop hole some where in the 102 law
Quote from: luvrbus on April 16, 2011, 04:13:04 PM
You guys need to measure the fender flares,rub rails and bumpers on some of these buses
I have, Clifford. MCI, Van Hool, Setra, etc. are all 102" fender skirt to fender skirt (or rub-rail to rub-rail).
Bumpers don't count -- they enjoy the same "safety equipment" exemption as mirrors and lights.
Quote
I have no idea where just the mirror and lights can exceed 102 inches wide came from if so bus manufactures are in trouble they sure put a bunch on the road from the factory with fender flares lol there has to be a loop hole some where in the 102 law
Well, transit buses are a different matter. Most transit districts, being government entities, are exempt from their own laws.
Remember, too, that these width limits are state by state. The federal code says that, for interstate use, states must allow the safety equipment exemption. Some states allow other equipment, too. But if you want your coach to be legal everywhere, then it needs to be 102" or less for everything other than the required safety equipment. Note that many states limit 102" vehicles to STAA routes, so, for example, in NJ your bus needs to be 96" or less to go anywhere useful.
FWIW.
Quote from: Joe Camper on April 16, 2011, 03:52:41 PM
Here is another version of home made smart car crazyness
That one's illegal for sure. To wit, it blocks all the tail lights (and license plate), and there are no side markers at the back. I see this all the time with motorcycles and ATVs, too, although many of the racks do have auxilliary lights on the back and side to keep them legal. Still, this attachment puts you over length in some places. In CA, for example, vehicles over 40' are prohibited from many state highways. Even strapping a bicycle on the back puts you over the legal limit if you have a 40' coach.
Again, not something you hear people getting pulled over for much. But it's a stiff fine if it happens, and you usually have to correct the overdimensional and lighting issues before being allowed to continue.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Edit, oops! :-[
BCO, Just for you Here is the link to all the Abbreviations you want to know. Juast put one into the search bar and it will tell you what it is. Enjoy
http://www.abbreviations.com/BTW (http://www.abbreviations.com/BTW)
Dave
Quote from: TomC on April 16, 2011, 07:55:09 AM
It will create some very relaxed cruising as compared to when I drive the bus wondering if it is going to break-even though I've rebuilt everything in the engine compartment including the transmission, rear end, new air bags, new steering gear. And being 40ft, anyone can drive it since (at least here in Calif.) it is considered a 3 axle house car. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, please let us know when you want to sell your bus. ;D
Just curious. Has anyone here ever had their bus stopped and measured by anyone from the dot? In fact raise your hand if they pulled you over and did an inspection. I have a fifth wheel gooseneck flatbed trailer I built that is 108 wide at the fenders and I've never had any problems and it's been through a lot of scales. I guess fenders are possibly exempt as they are considered safety equipment!! ::)
That guy is punishing the frame on that XL. People never cease to amaze me.
Speaking of a 3/4 ton Dodge pickup pulling a big fifth wheel trailer-the trailer light cord (that also carries the electric brake current for the trailer) came unplugged. When the driver stepped on the brakes-not much happened, so he really stomped on the brakes at which time the trailer really hit and actually folded up the pickup in half. Luckily no one was hurt. This is why Freightliner sells the rather expensive, but really nice driving SportChassis. It's a Freightliner M2 class crew cab with a 9.5 ft custom aluminum bed. As comparison to a pickup truck, the SportChassis weighs in around 13,500lbs. Nothing can replace good old steel in abundance. Good Luck, TomC
I loaded a smart car this week too.
I put my stuff in it, jumped in and drove it from the rest area on I-40 EB near Daindridge, TN (& I-81 junction) to Greensboro, NC
Even though I've driven this little thing a 1/2 dozen times now it still amazes me how roomy it is inside and how well that little 3 cylinder 70 hp engine pushes it right along.
;D BK ;D
I'm waiting for the new Scion IQ to come out. Granted it is about 10 inches longer then the Smartcar, but it has a back seat. The area behind the driver would be hard for someone to sit, but the passenger seat has a deep foot well that allows the seat to be pushed forward to allow a regular adult to sit behind. Plus it has front engine front wheel drive with a normal transmission (not the automated manual the Smartcar has). Good Luck, TomC
bk, YOU drove a smart car???? i'm impressed now, with smart cars. i'd love to have one of those little suckers, but i need my "garage", my chevy express van, to store all my tools and parts in.
obviously, smart cars work well. Now if i can just find a way to fit it in between my bus and my van and still be legal. thanks for all the hints. anyone know how much a smart car weighs. i'll bet that few hundred pounds will really make my drives overweight. Maybe i can spread some of the weight to the van.
with gas as high as it is, it would be nice to have Fran drive a smart car around instead to the van when she goes shopping.
Quote from: white-eagle on April 17, 2011, 02:30:56 PM
...i need my "garage", my chevy express van, to store all my tools and parts in.
...
with gas as high as it is, it would be nice to have Fran drive a smart car around instead to the van when she goes shopping.
Get a scooter, Tom. 100mpg, and you can shove it inside the Chevy when you move the rig. We have no trouble getting our groceries home on a scooter, and Louise even manages to get the laundry down to the washateria (that there's a Texas word) on hers.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Yes Tom I've drive Setra's Smart car 1/2 dozen times now and to be honest first time they handed me the keys and pointed it out I said. "What? You want me to drive that? Uh I should be carrying it instead of it carrying me!"
But after having been handed the keys 5 more times I really enjoy driving it. It's fun to drive, it handles well on surface streets and on the interstate as well. I love the shift or not to shift option! If I'm in the mode to control the shifts I do, and other wise I put it in D and let it choose it's own.
3 cylinder engine over the rear trans axle puts out 70 hp and is way fun to drive.
;D BK ;D
If you have space to load a Smart at an angle surely it is possible to build a turntable, load it the "normal" way (as in the video) and then rotate it until is within limits. Just my 2 cents...
Quote from: white-eagle on April 17, 2011, 02:30:56 PM(snip) i'm impressed now, with smart cars. i'd love to have one of those little suckers, (snip)
Having been on the business end of a rentacar Chevy Malibu* driven by a drunk (.016 breathalyzer) at about 115 mph, I'd have a hard time driving a "Smart Car" on any street with a speed limit over 20. But that's just my feeling.
(* Said drunk was driving the rentacar because he'd wrecked his own car driving drunk about two weeks before.)
Quote from: pipopak on April 18, 2011, 12:55:16 PM
If you have space to load a Smart at an angle surely it is possible to build a turntable, load it the "normal" way (as in the video) and then rotate it until is within limits. Just my 2 cents...
Umm, not really. At an angle, it still only takes up as much tractor bed length as it is wide, maybe 5' or so. To mount it lengthwise instead would take its full length, plus a couple inches, or about 9'. That's nearly twice the length required. Most HDT's will not have a full 9' available between the back of the cab and the trailer swing area -- that extra 4' makes a huge difference.
The angle in question, BTW, is vertical, not horizontal.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
In a case of a picture being worth 1,000 words, this is the angle we are talking about:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmbruss.com%2Fimages%2F09HDTRally%2FSundry15.JPG&hash=e110ada2f1da67f406d004ecd4d352a9024d970a)
Note the car loads butt-first, and it loads from the street side of the rig, so that the car's driver door can be opened while loaded.
One more:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhhrvresource.com%2FImages%2Fsmartfor2_2.png&hash=b0f9ea5122e8876733d9ab541b5baab30e019e49)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, that could double as a smart car bungee jump launcher ;D good picture.
It should be said here that as the states, cities, towns, etc are going more and more in debt the 'revenue enhancement agents' are looking for more and more ways to separate you from your pocketbook.
I don't know anyone in this hobby that has been ticketed for any of the silly crap...yet.
I do see it coming though.
In 30 years off and on trucking I have got about 10 DOT inspections. 5 of them in the past 6 months.
On of FL's finest wrote me for 'Falsified logs, said I was not in Jacksonville, FL when I fueled. The Pilot book says Jax, the address in in Jax, the mail is delivered to that Jax address, Fed-Ex, UPS, etc deliver to that address, the receipt in the 'Revenue enhancement agents' hand said Jax. You would not beleive the process it takes to fight this crap.
Jack
not to mention the 2 hrs they spend wasting your time and finding nothing...
Well here I am trying to hide and still steal some of the great ideas I learned long ago that BusNuts have and Sean pulls me out of the closet. ::) Yea, I gave up on the Neoplan about 4 years ago, lucky before the crash so I got a fair amount of my money back and while I was working on it and here night after night I had a ball working, dreaming and planning on how 320 sq ft of double decker would give the two of us plenty of fulltiming room. When I started my bus those silly stick and staple fifth wheelers were toys, but IMHO they changed. So I bought a used Teton 39' that weighs 18,700 empty, 14" tall frame rails, three axles, air disc brakes, triple slides (400 sq ft), solar panels, air suspension, hot water heat and more. All the things I wanted in my bus but the trailer was all done and I got it when the market was falling so about half price of new and it was just over a year old.
But then I needed something to pull it. I fell for the Series 60 I had built for my Neoplan and had to have that. I wanted the Autoshift, but the Gen I version so I had a clutch pedal to soften the hook up. And I loved the looks of a Kenworth T2000. So while a little like finding hen's teeth with that combination I did find one. Lots of commercial miles, but a good service record, a DD series III rebuild, a rebuilt Autoshift and aluminum rims. Sold the rear four wheels/tires and front differential, moved the back diff forward so it now is a two axle class 7 truck. I've had a ball working on it and still quite a lot to go, but I drift from the smart car angle..........
We now have 39' of living space, PLUS 6' of driver/passenger area (like having a 45' bus that can turn sharp) including microwave, frig, TV, bunk, crates for wife's two dogs that she shows in agility and an APU to keep it all going plus keep us warm or cool. And when that all is hooked up we can park it in many campgrounds and use the smart we bought in Jan '08 for errands, shopping, dog shows. It is 106" long and to make it near 102" I had to tip it 27 degrees. See a smart is like a brick and when you tip it, one end gets shorter, but the other gets longer and you have to go steeper than if you took a 106" stick and raised it. Then a 12v. winch pulls up, tire straps secure it and a pair of folding 12' ramps unload it.
Why tip it for just 4 inches? I worked as an engineer for 31 years for Mercury Marine and had to testify many times how we made things safe. But stupid people do stupid things and a fast talking lawyer can convince a jury of non technically trained, housewives, gardeners, etc that make up the typical jury to just give money from the deep pockets to the person hurt even if it wasn't the product fault. I agree with JackHartJr that there is low hanging dollars out there as the state and local people wake up to all the highway violations out there. Overlength racers taking money towing their cars with MH's/Busses and closed trailers. Fishermen towing their fivers with an extended crew cab and boat behind in states that don't allow it. (Not to mention how the brakes on them ARE NOT SAFE FOR HEAVY FIVERS. And let's say that I was in a highway corner on the white line and a car coming the other way was scared by the 2" of car hanging off, swerved and was hurt or worse. Now it doesn't take much of a $200 hr expert witness to find that I was over the federal highway width and tape my rig – so then what way does the jury turn?
It's also interesting how when working on my bus all the legal things I had to learn (width, weights, brakes, lights, etc.) On a HDT truck conversion many are fooled because they see a commercial truck, driven by a CDL pro that is 85' long. But they pay BIG dollars for tags and insurance, plus other regs and the rules are different. I have titled my KW as a MH in TN, tags are $75 and insurance for the truck and trailer is very reasonable. So now I have to follow the same length and width rules that you do, lights, etc. Not that I'm trying to convince anyone else here to switch, but there are other options to living and traveling. And no, if I roll mine it won't hold up like an MCI, but the front windshield in my KW was $132 new and the one in the Neoplan was over $1,500 and came from Germany.
Just my opinion and thank goodness we all have different opinions. Russ
P.S. and why not lengthways some ask? Well the truck has an Series 60 ahead of the cab, 6' of cab, 5' of smart crossways, 5' of clearance to allow a 90 degree turn for those tight places, 39' of trailer and it adds to about 64'-11" and just under the laws. I see some the same with 45' trailers, but again, $$$$$$$$$$$ for the MAN!
I think a HDT and 5th wheel make a lot of sense for many full timers. One precaution though that I have heard about.
There was a long running thread on Escapees about someone who regularly took his HDT/Trailer combo into Mexico for the winter. Because of a family emergency, they bob-tailed back to the U.S.. No problem getting in but they could not take the truck back into Mexico without the trailer attached.
I don't remember the outcome, seems their choices were to pay a commercial hauler to bring the trailer into the States so they could haul it back, or to buy a cheap trailer and abandon it in Mexico.
Just a little useless info to plug in to the back of your brain!
I don't suppose they are available in the States, but there's a French company called Microcar that build small cars that are not unlike the Smart, but less sophisticated and less fashionable. A guy down my street is obviously a fan as he had had a whole series of them. From the sound it made I had always assumed that it had a two-stroke engine, but according to their website they are available with a 505cc 4-stroke petrol, a 548cc diesel, or in a electric version.
Anyway, the point is that their Virgo model (a few years old now and no longer made) is stated as being 2580mm long. That's 101.57 inches folks.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derekslackmotors.co.uk%2Fimages-products%2Fbig%2FNX53LNV1.jpg&hash=dcbd348acaaffc7be0927db29ef74daac7d40872)
Plenty of them on Ebay for not much money
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on May 03, 2011, 05:30:09 AM
I don't suppose they are available in the States, (snip) Jeremy
Nope, you'd never get them past the N. American regs.
Back to the topic... I STILL say, a Smart Car should be able to load itself. Otherwise its dumber than H*ll. ;D
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on May 03, 2011, 08:02:35 AM
Nope, you'd never get them past the N. American regs.
That's a shame - there was me dreaming up a part-time business that bought little French cars on Ebay and stuffed them in shipping containers going to the USA. What kind of things might it fail the American regs on do you imagine? Not enough cup holders?
I can well imagine there would be very little demand for one of these in the States, but if a Smart car can pass the American regs I'm interested to know why one of these couldn't.
Jeremy
Actually, I think the European emission and safety regulations are probably stricter than they are here. Mostly it's a matter of very expensive testing for a very limited market.
I can understand that selling brand-new cars into the American market would (quite properly) require a full range of expensive type-approval testing. But are there not exemptions for personal imports or kit-cars etc?
If an American vehicle is imported into the UK by an individual, for example, it has to go through a 'SVA test', which is 'Single Vehicle Approval' - this checks many things and isn't easy to pass, but obviously doesn't get into any of the really serious stuff that new cars go through (ie. crash testing etc).
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on May 03, 2011, 09:49:02 AMI can understand that selling brand-new cars into the American market would (quite properly) require a full range of expensive type-approval testing. But are there not exemptions for personal imports or kit-cars etc?
If an American vehicle is imported into the UK by an individual, for example, it has to go through a 'SVA test', which is 'Single Vehicle Approval' - this checks many things and isn't easy to pass, but obviously doesn't get into any of the really serious stuff that new cars go through (ie. crash testing etc). Jeremy
North American laws are very different. The laws (National Motor Vehicle Traffic Safety Act of 1966 and Clean Air Act of 1969, as amended) require that every vehicle meet all the requirements of the law and also regulations set by National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Enviromental Protection Agency, with almost identical requirements in Canada, enforced by Transports Canada and Environment Canada. It doesn't matter if you're bringing in one or one hundred thousand.
There was a "personal import" exemption at one time but it was revoked because it was burdensome for the bureaucrats. There are hundreds of pages of laws, regulations, and court rulings but it all adds up to "it is not practical".
Why not take the engine out of the car, and maybe also the wheels, then separately import the resultant pieces as "vehicle parts", and leave it up to the purchaser to put them together to make a complete car? How big or small does a part need to be, to be considered "parts"? Wherever there's bureaucracy, there's a way around it.
This is sort-of like how diplomats in foreign postings would import their own cars in the famous Diplomatic Bag. There used to be some interesting vehicles in far-flung obscure places that were brought in this way.
John
" How big or small does a part need to be, to be considered "parts"? "
The law specifically says "vehicles and items of motor vehicle equipment" so that answer is that all parts have to meet all standards that apply to them. Don't try the "disassemble the car" trick -- quite a few people have; they're now known as "The Defendant". BTW, you DO NOT want to mess with US Customs -- they're the only US Gov. agency that's judge and jury in their own court. You actually have more rights with Homeland Security than you do with Customs. Customs can condemn and seize anything -- that's one of the specifics of importing any item across the border.
Quote from: Chopper Scott on April 16, 2011, 09:17:28 PM
Just curious. Has anyone here ever had their bus stopped and measured by anyone from the dot? In fact raise your hand if they pulled you over and did an inspection. I have a fifth wheel gooseneck flatbed trailer I built that is 108 wide at the fenders and I've never had any problems and it's been through a lot of scales. I guess fenders are possibly exempt as they are considered safety equipment!! ::)
Just a question - Are we required to run our Coach RV through the scales along the interstate? So far, I've just driven by without a thought. ???
Presumably it's not the importing aspect specifically which causes the problem - I would imagine the various agencies would only take an interest when you tried to get a US registration issued on a 'non-recognised' vehicle for use on the public road.
I'm surprised to learn how restrictive the laws are as I'd always assumed that America was the land of 'anything goes' when it came to vehicles, and the wilder and wackier the better.
Jeremy
Tikvah, No, you are not required to run across the scales, UNLESS you are using it for business and have a DOT number and a CDL. In fact if you do go across the scales when they are open, i have heard that they can stop you and do an inspection just like you were a commercial rig.
Quote from: Jeremy on May 04, 2011, 02:07:33 PMPresumably it's not the importing aspect specifically which causes the problem - I would imagine the various agencies would only take an interest when you tried to get a US registration issued on a 'non-recognised' vehicle for use on the public road.
No, (regarding US laws, but Canada is similar) any vehicle that's brought across the border (for any commercial purpose -- and registration and use in the US is considered a commercial purpose) must be enrolled with US Customs and a bond for the value of the vehicle deposited with Customs. There are a few exemptions (a foreign military person in the U.S. on NATO-authorized orders; a credentialed diplomat; a vehicle that's being brought for an auto show, a race, or exhibition like marketing research -- these must be kept under bond and exported or destroyed at the end of one year although an extension for military persons or diplomats is available by application to Customs. Also, a vehicle which is 25 years or older is considered a non-commercial vehicle and is exempt; however, the importer must apply for a ruling from Customs that this applies and Customs must issue a notification that they have accepted the exemption; bond is released when this exemption is validated by Customs and such a vehicle can be kept in the US indefinitely) but all vehicles have to be processed by Customs and released. If any vehicle does not quality for an exemption, the technical details of the vehicle are referred to Department of Transportation and EPA. In theory, it is possible to have a vehicle released by DoT and EPA but the practicalities are that this never happens.
It is illegal to register an imported vehicle that has not been released by Customs but this is separate from and only at the end of the comprehensive Customs procedure.
It is legal to import a vehicle that is manufactured and certified by its manufacturer to meet N. American standards. Examples of this are US military personnel -- they must buy US vehicles if they want to bring them back; I am not aware of any company that does this except for German and Swedish ones. Similarly, if a car is sold in Canada and it meets US standards, that vehicle can be brought into the US. But in all cases, the importer must go through the registration and release procedures required by Customs.
(US and Canadian laws fit together hand in glove so almost everything can be converted by substituting "Canada" for "US", above.)
It is quite simple. It's illegal to import a non-US vehicle into the US without approval of Customs. They enforce this law. It's as simple as that.
(Sorry for the thread drift but there seems to be a lack of understanding out there.)
its legal to both send parts and import parts.. so ur right icini john. My friend who has a place in south america, not only sent truck and auto parts in containers (shipped as scrap) to his shop there, but also cut up n dismantled a ranger pickup so he could reassemble it there. I have both bought and sold major components to europe, and while in some states like this one, you can assemble your own homebuilt cars, as i have, you can do the same. The only thing i have had to do besides show reciepts, is to make sure that the headlights were at the right height, n the thing had proper lights, wipers, etc. Somehow they have never cared about the drivetrain, or the bumpers, etc. We also have to stamp the frame in the proper 2 places, as that is inspected also. I have a car right now that i have to get the number inspected... well, almost.... abt 2 more days work on it.
Chev - you're talking *export* here. I'm guessing what your friend did in South America was illegal there but that's not the point. Motor vehicles, parts, and (especially) engines must be declared to US Customs and must be US-compliant if they're imported into the US. If US Customs approve the import of the parts, that's OK but this isn't an easy hurdle (and it ain't gonna happen on an engine).
I'm sure that you know people who have done it and got away with it (I have too) but I've also known people (and by this I mean people I know personally) who had a ride to the nearest Federal Courthouse in handcuffs.
Sorry about all this thread drift but many people out there think "oh, this doesn't apply to me", or "I can find some way around it because I want to" or "I can outsmart US Customs". These are BAD mistakes to make.
Ok.. no further comment.
I've no idea if Renault sells cars in the States, but if they do you might be about to get the new Twizy model, which is another smaller-than-a-Smart alternative. Not only is it shorter, but is significantly narrower too as it's two seats are in-line rather than side-by-side.
Renault is a major manufacturer (equivalent to Mercedes), but I don't know if they have any presence at all in the States.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.gizmag.com%2Fgallery_lrg%2Ftwizy-4.jpg&hash=09574cf572f92520d7456658349910662beff821)
Jeremy
I'm waiting for the "Loading a dumb car" post now!! ;)
at least you spelled dumb the right way with a lower case "d"