Last year I worked on getting filtered water in to my "rv pad" and the septic tank hook up was already there. But now I have the electrical in too!! I had a friend who knows electric hook it up for me and he taught me LOTS about special tools for it and how to do it (in fact, Im feeling a little cocky now and like it is easy)!!
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and the album link for you truely masocistics
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congratulations 8)
Melbo
You go Girl! ;)
Hey, as long as no one minds parking on dirt, you are ALL invited over to my "pad" :D ;D
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 12, 2011, 06:58:52 PM
Hey, as long as no one minds parking on dirt, you are ALL invited over to my "pad" :D ;D
No prob 3" of rain each year firm and sound, I won't sink.
take you up on that when I get it converted.
Brice
if someone sneaks up behind you and yells real loud, you'll get rid of them. ::) ::)
Hey, we're hookin my lectric up this week and i got sewer, water, lectric on gravel for probably 4 bus friends, room for probably 2 or 3 more, but no power for them. All in NW Ohio just off i75 SE of Toledo.
That 50 amp looks like my cord will fit and we like dirt as long as it's not wet and mushy, like you sink in it. Don't know where you are, but maybe we can visit each other.
So did you try the steak dinner trick? ;D
haha!! Eddie, Im vegan lol NO meat ;) But he went away a happycamper!
Ohio sounds nice, especially in the summer! Im near Death Valley in California HOT HOT HOT in the summer but hey, I got 50amp lol And the ground is hard and dry just like Brice said ;D So come on down!
Boy what a nice looking panel! All the tricks! Curious why you are (or seem to be) double-lugged on one side of the bridged 30 amp breaker? Are you feeding a secondary 30 amp 120 volt load from one side? I always thought double lugging on a breaker wasn't allowed (but I think it actually is in some cases), and I was thinking about unequal load on one side of a bridged breaker. On the other hand, it's early here after a late night and the coffee ain't working so great...
Brian
Hi Teresa,
That's a nice looking setup - I'll remember that invitation when the ice and snow starts falling here next winter!
Quote from: bevans6 on April 13, 2011, 04:42:48 AM
Boy what a nice looking panel! All the tricks! Curious why you are (or seem to be) double-lugged on one side of the bridged 30 amp breaker? Are you feeding a secondary 30 amp 120 volt load from one side? I always thought double lugging on a breaker wasn't allowed (but I think it actually is in some cases), and I was thinking about unequal load on one side of a bridged breaker. On the other hand, it's early here after a late night and the coffee ain't working so great...
Brian
Whoa! huh? Me No Comprenda Amego?????? I havent had my coffee yet this morn, no fair to throw around big electriction type talk without me understanding what you are asking/saying. I will come back to this. There is a 30, 50 and a 100amp breaker in the box..... the 100amp feeds my house and the 120 opposite side of the 30 and 50 outlets. If that didnt answer your question, let me know ???
Sorry! javascript:void(0); ;D
Looking at the picture, the left hand 30 amp breaker has two wires going to it, or seems to. I wondered about that, is all.
Why, and what the second wire was for.
Brian
Brian, do you mean the two pole 30 amp breaker? That's the only one I see.
yeah, the two pole (I call them bridged, probably ganged is a better term) 30 amp breaker. The right hand side has one wire, the left hand side has two wires. Just trying to understand and add to my general fund of trivia knowledge...
Brian
The hole on the left side with a green wire and white wire are for the 120 volt. The right side has the 30amp and 50amp. BTW the 30 amp on top is so I can run a future welder that I want to buy with 240. I do have an adapter for that 30amp to fit a mh 30amp cord.
OK, so you are basically feeding a 120 VAC 30 amp outlet and a 240 VAC 30 amp outlet from a single ganged breaker. Now, I have done that in the past but I thought I was breaking a code rule when I did it. I really don't know on that.
Brian
Code rule? Oh dear, here comes Sean! I dont know if it is or not. The guy who set this up for me is a backyard type guy who works in electric at Home Depot and whose wife used to change my diapers ;D (true story haha) But he worked for the gov all his life until retirement doing air conditioning and heating in the desert, so he knows his stuff. But then again, he is also a good friend
I really don't know either, it's kind of like pulling 120 vac off the dryer plug for something. It probably gets done a lot, and if it is OK by code it's probably considered bad practice or something like that. I apologize if I am making you feel bad or worry, it just caught my eye and I thought I would ask. Sorry...
When I wire up something like that I never do a double connect to a breaker lug, I got yelled at once in school and it stuck with me... But I've read (on the internet) that it's kind of inspectors option to allow it or not.
Brian
No no, if it isnt code I want to know. I may or may not change it, but I at least want to know and have the option and be educated on it. It's hard to make decisions when I dont know the facts. But you do know the 120 comes off the 100 right? If that even makes a difference.... maybe the 120 should have it's own breaker?
Hi
The 30 Amp 2-pole (ganged) breaker appears to serve a 240 volt load ( the 2 wires identified by blue arrows ), and there is an additional wire connected to one of the breakers ( identified by the red arrow) to supply a 120 volt load.
Here (Canada) the code requires a separate breaker for the 120 volt load, with the breaker size selected based on the wire size and receptacle specs. I don't know what the code there states.
The setup you have now likely works, but may cause issues if you have load on both the 120 volt and 240 volt circuits at the same time.
Just my 2 canuckian coppers.........
Mark
Thanks for the drawing Mark! Very cool and I now understand! I thought he connected it to the 100, but obviously not..... still dont know about code though. What kind of issues would be caused by using both outlets at the same time? Fire? Or just a tripped breaker?
Not likely a fire. The breaker would only allow ~30amps on each side,. If you have load on BOTH wires connected to the same breaker, the 30 amps would be shared by the loads.
Teresa, what they are talking about is the 15/20-amp, 120v duplex receptacle on the left side of the post, which is unlawfully tapped off the 30-amp, two-pole breaker for the 14-30R receptacle.
Not only does this represent multiple code violations, it is also quite dangerous. The 20-amp receptacle is "protected" by a 30-amp breaker, which can easily lead to overheating of the receptacle, the wiring, or anything plugged into it.
The 30-amp breaker is only permitted to support a single load, you can not have two wires connected to the same pole of the breaker as shown. And the 20-amp receptacle must be protected by a 20-amp, single-pole breaker.
This type of main service enclosure, with integral meter base, is not intended to supply branch loads as you have done. It is intended to contain main service disconnecting breakers which then supply downstream sub-panels.
I would encourage you to contact a real electrician and have this done right. In California, that would be someone with a C-10 license. Your life and the lives of your loved ones may depend on it.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, I'm curious about something. I have been told before that a breaker can have only one load wire attached. What is the reasoning there? Certainly, we do not want the circuit to be overloaded, but what difference does it make if two receptacles, for example, are connected directly to the break or strung together as long as the total load is withing spec?
Quote from: Stormcloud on April 13, 2011, 06:26:36 PM
Not likely a fire. ...
Sorry, this is not correct. In fact, fire is
extremely likely with this setup.
It would be all too easy to draw up to 30 amps through the receptacle itself, which is only rated for 20 amps, or worse, a connected 15-amp extension cord, which could easily melt under the additional load.
If it were me, I would disconnect that receptacle until the situation can be corrected.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Lin on April 13, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
Sean, I'm curious about something. I have been told before that a breaker can have only one load wire attached. What is the reasoning there? Certainly, we do not want the circuit to be overloaded, but what difference does it make if two receptacles, for example, are connected directly to the break or strung together as long as the total load is withing spec?
I am not aware of any provision of code that restricts a breaker to have only a single load wire attached. That said, all breakers must be installed in accordance with the terms of their listing, which means that if the manufacturer rates the lug for only a single wire, then only a single wire may be connected. Most electrical devices are clearly marked, either on the device, the package, or the instruction sheet, as to how many of each size of wire may be connected.
If multiple receptacles are connected to a single breaker, whether by multiple connections at the breaker or by some other connection downstream, all receptacles must be rated for the full load supported by the breaker. (There is a specific exception to this for multiple 15-amp receptacles supplied by a single 20-amp breaker.)
There are also some important restrictions. Laundry outlets, such as for a dryer, are only permitted to supply the laundry. I posted my earlier response before reading the whole thread (part of the thread was on my screen when I got back from dinner, and I continued typing) and so I did not see the part about the 30-amp receptacle being for a welder; I thought it was a dryer outlet, which would make connecting other outlets to that breaker impermissible. The issue of a 20-amp receptacle on a 30-amp breaker is still the major problem here.
Several other code and safety issues are evident in the photos, such as a #14 wire (maybe its a #12, hard to tell in the photo) being secured in a lug that is clearly not made for wire that small. One of the reasons I wrote that this type of panel is not intended for smaller branch circuits.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
:'( Fire scares me. Okay I will change it out! He said it is 12 wire and was trying to save me trenching and wire. He says he isnt an electriction but was just trying to help. Thanks Sean! I live in a mobile home that is near this panel and it would go up in smoke fast. Thank you.
BTW the electrictions in this little hick town wont teach me. I tried to hire someone before to teach me while they put in some other outlets for me and they would not. I do have another friend who lives a few hundred miles from me offer to come out and teach me, he went to school for electronic engineering but never did anything with his diploma..... Im thinking about getting him out here.
If just removing that 120 outlet would make it safe that would be better....... would that work?
Im not trying to argue, but to learn. Please dont take this wrong. But if this panel is only meant to house mains for other panels, why does it have places to put holes in the sides like this
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whereas the main for my house says 100amps and the wires run out of the bottom (and then to another panel) like this?
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr315%2Fhappycamperbrat%2FLittle%2520GTO%2Fhookups%2520at%2520the%2520house%2F002.jpg&hash=4b9952a6137ff478f93be05b87bbb78a168cdb95)
The different knock-outs and holes are there to give flexibility in how the panel/enclosure can be installed. Sometimes the cable or conduit comes in the side, the bottom, the back, depending on the physical requirement. Sean was basically saying that the panel with the meter is supposed to be used for the meter and the main (100 amp in your case) service disconnect, then a separate panel is supposed to contain breakers for the branch circuits (the 50 amp for that outlet, the 30 amp for that outlet, the 15 amp for the little 120 volt outlet, etc). When the enclosures are designed they build in as much flexibility as they can so they can be used to do a lot of different things, and then it's up to the installer to configure it properly, safely and to code when they do the installation.
The main reason electricians won't teach you is they went to school for a number of years, served an apprenticeship and wrote examinations to get a license to do what they do. It's not illegal for you to do it yourself if you get a permit before you do it and have it examined and passed after you do it and before you turn it on, but they invested a lot of time and money to qualify for their trade. They won't be best served by teaching someone 2% or 3% of what they know so that person can go ahead, do things wrong, hurt themselves. I went to school for electronics all those many years ago, I understand electricity just fine, I was trained along the way in basic house wiring and such, and I've done simple house wiring for people who had a permit and got an inspection of my work. But I am absolutely not an electrician, I don't know 10% of the code. I get a panel installed, I hire a pro! It's a funny thing, an electronics engineer might design the panels and the breakers and the wire, or the way it has to be installed, but a licensed electrician has to actually do the work!
Brian
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 06:55:09 AM
...
If just removing that 120 outlet would make it safe that would be better....... would that work?
The 20-amp duplex outlet, which is connected to one leg of the 30-amp breaker, is certainly the most pressing problem with this installation. Disconnecting and removing it would make things safer.
That said, I see perhaps a half dozen other problems and violations here, and really, to be safe, you should correct them all. For example, the mismatched wire/lug sizes I mentioned earlier. I also see improperly identified wires and missing chafe protection. Without being closer to actually see or read the wire sizes, I am also concerned that the wire gauge may be inadequate for the load, and I have some concerns that the fittings used to attach the boxes might not be the appropriate liquid-tight type.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 08:13:00 AM
Im not trying to argue, but to learn. Please dont take this wrong. But if this panel is only meant to house mains for other panels, why does it have places to put holes in the sides like this
The covered-over 'hole" you indicate is called a "knock-out." General-use electrical enclosures come with a variety of knock-outs in various locations to make it easy for the installer to chose the one(s) that is/are right for the application. Having lots of knock-outs means installers will spend less time and energy in the field with a punch making holes in other places. However, it is NOT the intention that every knock-out will get used in any given box. In fact, if you look at a standard 4" square junction box at, say, Home Depot, you will notice it has no fewer than 17 knock-outs -- three on each side and five in the back -- and it would be impossible to use them all. The idea is to use only the ones you need.
Years of experience tell me that the integral panel in that pedestal is not meant for smaller branch circuits. But the definitive answer is in the pedestal's listing. Somewhere inside the pedestal will be a label which either contains or refers to that listing. The listing will tell you what kind of circuits are allowed inside the pedestal.
The 100-amp circuit feeding the home exits the bottom because that was what was most convenient or appropriate at the time of installation.
BTW, there are violations on that circuit as well, to wit, the conductors are not properly identified. Also, it looks to me like the flexible conduit used is not the type rated for outdoor/wet locations or direct burial. Sometimes even licensed electricians cut corners.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Lets just say I am seeking clarification on this and not taking issue with anything Sean has said. BUT, and without making the "call" "every appliance MUST have its very own personal circuit breaker". Your kitchen range, hot water heater, clothes dryer, sump pump, well water pump, furnace, shop built in compressor, shop welder/s, heat pump, etc. Areas of the country may have peculiar code enforcement in some instances but the NEC...NATIONAL Electric Code is , well, national. Here we are required to have 2...TWO, 10 foot grounding rods hooked to the circuit panel and the rods MUST be 12 foot apart. Can you believe that Eugene with 4 months of constant rain every year must meet "arid area" specs? Stranger than fiction is FACT. I mention this only cause you said DEATH VALLEY. Got two rods in the ground? Did you have to use a jack hammer? Did you know it was OK to lay those rods on their side and bury them? More strangeness.
You have "over fused" that 110 circuit. Right after the rule that says "don't lick your fingers and touch both these wires with your bare hands" is the rule about "over fusing". It is number two though.
I think the workmanship in your pics is excellent....just some details and that is what our "inspection program" is for.
John
OK! ANY appliance that is hard wired in or is fixed to the floor/ceiling,etc MUST have a dedicated breaker. If it is plugable and rolls around then it doesn't need the dedicated breaker.....your blender would qualify. I put in three boxes for a friend to hook up his welders at different locations in his shop. In theory, I could have put all three on the same breaker but I put each box on it's own breaker.
ALL breakers MUST have only one wire connected to them. You are supposed to connect the other legs of any circuit in a junction box or outlet box "DOWNSTREAM" of the breaker. No fairs wire-nutting a bunch of wires inside the circuit breaker panel.
You got code questions? Ask your local elect supply house staff. They are often more knowledgeable than a electrician cause the salesman sees ALL the problems and researches ALL the answers EVERY DAY. They are a superb source of what electrican will do your job best for less. "You go girl"
John
If you have used up all the breakers in your box talk to your local supply house about the best/cheapest fix that will keep you within code.
Teresa, I hope you take all of these comments as constructive input.
I once posted a picture of some wiring in my bus and I got a ton of "negative" comments ;). As I stood back and looked at it, ALMOST all replies were CONSTRUCTIVE and had my safety in mind. I have since corrected all of the major issues.
Some folks are very quick to jump on the NEC is king bandwagon and it used to drive me crazy. George Myers was a stickler. As we all know, there can be various ways to accomplish most things safely, but electrical wiring is not the place to get creative. The NEC only reflects one way to do the job, but it was written based on a huge amount of experience (some of which is based on dead bodies).
The issue that I wonder about is the wire size for the 50 Amp circuits. Hard to tell, but it looks small to me.
JohnEd makes a good point. Ground rods are mandatory and can be an issue. We had a plant in Moncks Corner, SC - a pretty wet area of the country. It was an old plant that, I am sure, was wired to the code in place at the time. A few years ago that area went through a couple of years of extreme drought. I am not sure what happened, but they sustained a huge amount of damage, because the ground rods were in dry dirt.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on April 14, 2011, 09:37:19 AM
Teresa, I hope you take all of these comments as constructive input.
I once posted a picture of some wiring in my bus and I got a ton of "negative" comments ;). As I stood back and looked at it, ALMOST all replies were CONSTRUCTIVE and had my safety in mind. I have since corrected all of the major issues.
Some folks are very quick to jump on the NEC is king bandwagon and it used to drive me crazy. George Myers was a stickler. As we all know, there can be various ways to accomplish most things safely, but electrical wiring is not the place to get creative. The NEC only reflects one way to do the job, but it was written based on a huge amount of experience (some of which is based on dead bodies).
The issue that I wonder about is the wire size for the 50 Amp circuits. Hard to tell, but it looks small to me.
JohnEd makes a good point. Ground rods are mandatory and can be an issue. We had a plant in Moncks Corner, SC - a pretty wet area of the country. It was an old plant that, I am sure, was wired to the code in place at the time. A few years ago that area went through a couple of years of extreme drought. I am not sure what happened, but they sustained a huge amount of damage, because the ground rods were in dry dirt.
Jim
Absolutely I am taking this as constructive....... disheartening, but constructive. I know I have a lot to learn about electric and am thankful for the people here to let me know rather then a fireman or insurance guy telling me I screwed up after I killed my family or burned down my home!
As for the flexible housing and the rod with wiring for the home, they did pass inspection in 2001. The guy who did it is now dead (no he didnt die from a fire in his home) and the plans for the set up here have long been gone so Im not sure what I would refer to.
Quote from: JohnEd on April 14, 2011, 09:21:41 AM
... "every appliance MUST have its very own personal circuit breaker". Your kitchen range, hot water heater, clothes dryer, sump pump, well water pump, furnace, shop built in compressor, shop welder/s, heat pump, etc.
John, that may be true in certain areas but it is not in the NEC. In particular, receptacles for cord-and-plug connected equipment, as you have already noted, are commonly doubled or even tripled up in order to move the equipment around.
Even permanent equipment is permitted to share a circuit. For example, a single 50-amp circuit, usually with a receptacle, is normally installed in a house where a free-standing range is used in the kitchen. However it is very common, when remodeling a kitchen, to install a permanent cooktop in the counter and a separate permanent oven in the cabinetry; in this case, both devices can be connected to the same original 50-amp circuit. This is such a common misconception even among licensed electricians, however, that the electrician who did my last remodel refused to do it. I had to do it myself; when the inspector came and looked over my work, we both had a good chuckle about how code-ignorant many professionals today can be. BTW, the inspector found three code violations in what the professional did, all in permanent wiring. He found only one issue with the stuff I did myself -- I did not shorten the cord on the disposer enough. FWIW.
Quote
...
I think the workmanship in your pics is excellent....j
I disagree. Drilled holes are in improper locations, the boxes are not properly mechanically secured, conductors have not been properly identified, there is no chafe protection, the list goes on. I consider this unacceptable workmanship.
Quote
OK! ANY appliance that is hard wired in or is fixed to the floor/ceiling,etc MUST have a dedicated breaker.
Again, this is not true in the NEC. It may be true for certain jurisdictions that have added restrictions above and beyond the NEC.
Quote
ALL breakers MUST have only one wire connected to them.
This, too, is not in the NEC. Again, the only thing the code says about this is that all items must be installed in accordance with their listing. If the breaker manufacturer rates the lug for two wires, you can connect two wires. If you have found otherwise, please provide me the code section so I can look it up and educate myself.
Quote
You got code questions? Ask your local elect supply house staff. They are often more knowledgeable than a electrician cause the salesman sees ALL the problems and researches ALL the answers EVERY DAY.
Here again, I must beg to differ. Yes, there are SOME sales personnel at some supply houses who have some familiarity with the code, often because they worked as a journeyman in a previous job. But every supply house will tell you that it's not their job to know the code, it's yours. Moreover, supply houses have a vested interest in selling you stuff, so the advice is often slanted toward more gear rather than less.
Bottom line is that if you are doing your own work, YOU are responsible for knowing the code and the proper techniques. As Brian mentioned, a professional electrician spends years in training and apprenticeship before being qualified to do this work on her own as a journeyman. Even then, every journeyman I have worked with has carried with him a little code reference handbook -- none of us can memorize every fill table, de-rating, ampacity, and other minutia.
When I come to this board to answer questions like this, I do so with the code book open in front of me. The code is way too detailed to just be guessing at this. That's even bearing in mind that I worked for a C-10 licensed electrical contractor for a decade and I studied (but did not sit) the C-10 exam.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Girl you have it made not long ago we older converters had George Myers and Dave Galey to keep us on the right track those 2 never missed anything and now you just have Sean Lol
good luck
Quote from: JohnEd on April 14, 2011, 09:24:41 AM
If you have used up all the breakers in your box talk to your local supply house about the best/cheapest fix that will keep you within code.
FWIW, that's not one of the issues here. I see at least two unused spaces in this panel.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: luvrbus on April 14, 2011, 10:18:49 AM
Girl you have it made not long ago we older converters had George Myers and Dave Galey to keep us on the right track those 2 never missed anything and now you just have Sean Lol
good luck
LMAO!!! As soon as I read the word "code" I knew Sean would be all over this ;)
I had mine like your and the only thing the county inspector made me do was add a sub panel he didn't like the plugs on meter panel code or not I had no idea or he just wanted it different but a licensed electrician installed mine and was not happy about moving the plugs that debate lasted about a week before he moved the plugs
good luck
My experience is the inspector owns the bat and ball, the electrician is just the player... I've never had a bad inspector who got the code wrong, but I'm sure they exist.
Brian
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 09:54:16 AM
...As for the flexible housing and the rod with wiring for the home, they did pass inspection in 2001. ...
Hmm. Well, some inspectors are more lenient than others. The conduit running out the bottom with the 100-amp circuit in it looks to me like Flexible Metallic Conduit, type FMC, which is:
348.2 Definition.Flexible Metal Conduit (FMC). A raceway of circular cross section made of helically wound, formed, interlocked metal strip.
*The code is very explicit about where this may and may not be used, in particular:
348.12 Uses Not Permitted. FMC shall
not be used in the following:
(1) In wet locations
...
(6) Underground or embedded in poured concrete or aggregate
(Underline emphasis mine.) The reasons are clear: FMC is not watertight; water can easily ingress along the loosely crimped joint that secures one helix to the next (yes, I know, it's a continuous strip, but you get the idea). With any rain at all, that conduit will fill up with water, and now you have your insulated conductors running under water. Since the conductors themselves are also not rated for direct burial (or maybe even wet locations; hard to tell in the photo), eventually water will ingress through the insulation, creating current leakage.
I know we did not start out talking, in this thread, about existing work in that box. But it is worth noting, because this is likely to give you problems down the line. A sharp inspector would have red-tagged that installation, forcing the electrician to do it over again correctly.
Bear in mind that I am 400 miles away, looking at a couple of photos. If I were there in person, I might see extenuating factors, or I might see even more issues. Remote diagnosis is spotty at best.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
* In accordance with the copyright and intellectual property policy of this web site, I include the following:
From
NFPA 70®, National Electrical Code®, 2008 EditionCopyright © 2007, NFPA, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA
Used under "fair use" doctrine:
"... quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, ... reproduction by a teacher ... of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson ..." (from
Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law, 1961)
As a California Contractor, this just proves the fact that had it started with a Plan and then a permit which then leads to pre-plan review this would have all been caught and then inspected by an inspector. Not judging anyone but there are rules because these things can Kill people. It is not worth the problems or your family.
Just sayin Dave 8) :) ;D
Maybe it makes a difference because this isnt actually exposed to over head sky? There is a roof over this area.... Rain cant get it, but I did install a sprinkler system last year where the backflows are near the electrical panel box.......
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 11:10:38 AM
Maybe it makes a difference because this isnt actually exposed to over head sky? There is a roof over this area.... Rain cant get it, but I did install a sprinkler system last year where the backflows are near the electrical panel box.......
FMC may not be buried underground. Does not matter whether there is a roof over that ground or not. Also, as you note, installing sprinklers in the area makes it a "wet location"; many wet locations are actually indoors.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
It would be pretty easy to dig up that flexible pipe and have it exposed (though not so easy to take it out of a potentially wet location as my house water inlet is in that area as well....) What does the code say in those conditions?
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 11:32:58 AM
It would be pretty easy to dig up that flexible pipe and have it exposed (though not so easy to take it out of a potentially wet location as my house inlet is in that area as well....) What does the code say in those conditions?
If it passed inspection, I would probably leave it as-is until it becomes a problem.
To fix it properly, you really have two choices:
1. Remove the conduit and the wires and replace both with Underground Feeder cable, type UF, which is rated for direct burial. You can probably get a fair amount for the scrap value of the aluminum in the existing wires.
2. Remove the wires from the conduit and replace the conduit with a liquid-tight variety listed for direct burial, such as type LFMC. Re-pull the wires through the new, properly rated conduit and re-terminate.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
A word of caution on direct burial cable.
I laid that in a trench that we had to blast so that I could get power to the shop. Any idiot would know that you should not put that cable on sharp rock - right ::) ::).
Well, it lasted about 2 years and I had the fun of digging up the cable and putting conduit down.
Jim
Quote from: bevans6 on April 14, 2011, 10:51:29 AM
My experience is the inspector owns the bat and ball, the electrician is just the player... I've never had a bad inspector who got the code wrong, but I'm sure they exist.
Brian
I envy you your experience....on this point and many others, actually.
You need to cycle over here to Eugene, Orygun. This crew is so terrible that grown up electricians/contractors refuse work within the jurisdiction of the City inspectors. I would relate my experiences but I am certain WITHOUT DOUBT that most here would condemn me as prevaricator of the truth and all things Holy. Worst experience of my life with civil servants.
WORST! I have been around a good long while and I administered Gummint Defense contracts for 20 plus years and many of those birds live up to their reputation but this crew is beyond the bounds of.....
John
I just checked my mom's electrical inlet box (we live on the same 1 acre) and hers is done exactly like mine with the flexible piping. Hers was done around 20 years ago though.... Is both the large flexible and the smaller flexible wrong or just one of them?
Could be that since you are in a pretty dry area that the flexible tubing is ok with the county. You might want to ask them though.
I haven't talked to the county, but we just recently transferred both her house and the land with my house all into my name with an attorney. The county did do the inspections on the mobile homes when they were set up...... at this point with what all you guys are sayin Im not so sure I want the county coming out here ya know?! But I do want it right because like I said before, I dont want a fireman or insurance adjuster telling me later on that it was wrong!
If that is in Wet areas Not just rain but wet or where water can get to it, It should then be Schedule 40 or 80 solid PVC electrical grey pipe, glued with chaff protection anywhere it protrude through any rough or sharp opening. What you have is neither. That is Armor shield conduit and it is not water proof it is only water resistant.
You guys really know how to give a girl a boat load of work! Okay, got a lot to do....... see ya in 6 months lol
Like Sean said it is not that bad but needs a few things to be fixed before something does happen to someone. And it does all depend on what your local codes will accept.
Take a breath relax arms up in the air blow out (3 times), Now get to work.
Dave
It is funny to bear about inspectors coming out look at the work. I read a book one night, got up the next morning and started rewiring my rent house. When I finished I called the county and told them "I need an inspection on my wiring job". The lady said we don't do that if an individual wires a house but if you hired a contractor then the county would have to inspect it. I asked if they would do it anyway because I read a wiring book the night before. "No" she says.
So I call the power company to come out and hook into the grid. The service man arrives and I asked him to look over my work. He hooked it up and says "Looks good to me, have a nice day".
I kind if like that!
A very electric topic indeed!! I have found out over my years that electricians are anal and basically would love it if you had to get a permit and pay them to change batteries in your tv remote control. Did I mention the word anal? We all know there are some self proclaimed electrical wizzards on the board but in all reality their giving advise over a forum is probably not a wise idea. If a fire occured from someone following their advise they could actually be held accountable. How's that for being anal?!!! Some may know more than us average busnuts about electricity but I seriously doubt they know as much as the guys that do it for a living. A word of advise to all. Do not go on a bus forum for advise on commercial or residential wiring issues. I don't go on electrical forums for advise on busses. :o
Scott, I could not disagree more! People are responsible for their own actions. If I went to a forum and complained of personal issues and someone told me to jump off a bridge and I did, never in a million years would they be held liable. This board (like any other) is full of all kinds of people giving all kinds of opinions on all kinds of matters. Ive been researching many of these issues all day, and sooooo much of it is already on the net from a million different sources even on youtube lol Why in the world can a subject like safe RV pedestals not be discussed without people getting afraid of lawsuits? That's just wrong. But yes, today everywhere I turned on the net I did learn that the 120 was a danger and I removed it tonight. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to show photos of a project and have it scrutinized. But in the end it is up to ME to decide what I want to do and if Im gonna do it and I am responsible for MY own actions.
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You go girl!! Don't let the voltage nazi's ruin your sleep. I would have a local electrician take a peek and if for nothing else let you sleep better. Congrats on the hookups! I'm sure that is what your original intentions were and hoping that some fellow nuts may stop and enjoy. Great intentions and maybe someday I'll get to stop over. If you post any electrical stuff on this forum beware!!! :o
yeah, Im going to do as much of the work as I can myself. After I think it passes, then I will call back that electrician who wouldnt teach me anything lol ::) :D
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 14, 2011, 02:47:11 PM
I just checked my mom's electrical inlet box (we live on the same 1 acre) and hers is done exactly like mine with the flexible piping. Hers was done around 20 years ago though....
Remember that the codes do change and evolve. It's possible that 20 years ago this was not a problem (hard to imagine, though).
Also, flexible conduit is not a problem, so long as it is the liquid-tight type approved for direct burial. What I see in your photo looks to me like neither.
Quote
Is both the large flexible and the smaller flexible wrong or just one of them?
I didn't see where the small one goes, but I was guessing that it is carrying the driven ground and it only goes as far as the rod. Since it would not be buried it would be OK so long as this is not considered a "wet location". The large one is definitely a problem.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 14, 2011, 03:19:44 PM
If that is in Wet areas Not just rain but wet or where water can get to it, It should then be Schedule 40 or 80 solid PVC electrical grey pipe, glued with chaff protection anywhere it protrude through any rough or sharp opening. ...
While Dave is correct that those are approved methods, they are not the only ones, at least under the national code. You may also use direct-burial underground feeder cable, type UF, and direct-burial liquid-tight flexible metal conduit, type LFMC. The PVC is probably cheaper than either of those, except that I would guess the wires that are in the FMC you have now will not be long enough to run through regular PVC, which will necessarily take a less direct route than the flexible stuff you have today. You'd have to do the math as to whether the LFMC with your existing wire or the PVC with new wire would be cheaper.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Chopper Scott on April 14, 2011, 06:58:26 PM
If a fire occured from someone following their advise they could actually be held accountable.
Actually, no, we can't. Plenty of case law on this already, feel free to look it up.
That said, there is a reason why you will seldom, if ever, hear me recommend anything on this forum that is not strictly to code.
Quote
Some may know more than us average busnuts about electricity but I seriously doubt they know as much as the guys that do it for a living.
If that's a bet, I'll take you on. I've worked with hundreds of journeyman electricians over the years, and even some master electricians. MOST of them could not pass the electrical contractors' license exam (you don't need a license to work as a journeyman, you only have to work for someone with a license).
I can further tell you without equivocating that the vast majority of electricians, even licensed contractors, have little to no knowledge whatsoever of the code section which applies to RVs (which is not the subject of this thread, but it is the subject of most electrical threads on the board).
When you think about it, that statement actually flies in the face of logic. It would be like me telling you that the 18-year-old working at the grill at McDonald's knows more than you do about cooking, because he does it for a living. Or that the person stamping out fenders at the Ford plant knows more about building cars than a weekend hot-rod enthusiast, or that the teller at the bank knows more about handling money than, say, a dentist who trades his stock account every week on eTrade -- after all, the teller handles money for a living.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sure wish i was in California :)
???
I took another look at the photo's on the first page. The small metallic sheathed cable that is buried is the ground to the ground stake. The larger poly-looking sheathed cable is not buried, it is above ground feed directly into the house about 4 feet back of the pedestal. The breaker section is a direct feed from the meter base, so in effect there are now three "main breakers" taking supply direct from the meter.
What I might have done, subject to asking my electrical contractor, is this: put a master breaker of appropriate size in the pedestal box, and use it as the main breaker for all supply to everything. The feed from the meter looks like it is sized for 200 amps but the size of the breaker has to also protect the feed lines to the meter from the transformer, so size appropriately. Then I would hang a second breaker panel on the side of the pedestal, separate enclosure, and feed that from the main breaker. That panel would have breakers for the house, and a feed to a separate RV pedestal box that would finally have the breakers and outlets for the 15 amp, 30 amp and 50 amp outlets.
Brian
At first, when I saw that catchy title (I Got Hookups) I thought to myself, dinner and a movie next time I am in LA? But then I found out it was electricity.
Nuts.
BCO
Quote from: bevans6 on April 15, 2011, 05:08:44 AM
I took another look at the photo's on the first page. The small metallic sheathed cable that is buried is the ground to the ground stake. The larger poly-looking sheathed cable is not buried, it is above ground feed directly into the house about 4 feet back of the pedestal. The breaker section is a direct feed from the meter base, so in effect there are now three "main breakers" taking supply direct from the meter.
Simple Three main breakers, three houses, Just two roll. ;D Works for me
Brice
NEC does list rv codes in the book, at least in the one that i have. And in the county that i live in, they also have printed material which is essentially nec code for house n mobile work. I use both. However, when i was installing another mobile on my property, i belive i ran a #8 size loom 100' to the mobile panel for six months until i got the pole and so forth installed n inspected. Just a bit illegal... ;D..... but it worked fine for all the assembly work, and even used the range ...
I also have an older meter downleg of the new one way meters that pge installed last year on my property, and it works just fine. I just try to keep the county guy happy and i dont have any problems.
I'm a little late to the party here. I see no problem with having the 20 amp outlet on the left side as long as you protect it with a single pole 20 amp breaker. There is room in the panel.
NEC 230-71 allows up to six switches (breakers) in a service entrance panel. The phrasing used in the code is that all disconnects can be operated with "no more than six operations of the hand".
Quote from: bevans6 on April 15, 2011, 05:08:44 AM
I took another look at the photo's on the first page. The small metallic sheathed cable that is buried is the ground to the ground stake. The larger poly-looking sheathed cable is not buried, it is above ground feed directly into the house about 4 feet back of the pedestal. The breaker section is a direct feed from the meter base, so in effect there are now three "main breakers" taking supply direct from the meter.
What I might have done, subject to asking my electrical contractor, is this: put a master breaker of appropriate size in the pedestal box, and use it as the main breaker for all supply to everything. The feed from the meter looks like it is sized for 200 amps but the size of the breaker has to also protect the feed lines to the meter from the transformer, so size appropriately. Then I would hang a second breaker panel on the side of the pedestal, separate enclosure, and feed that from the main breaker. That panel would have breakers for the house, and a feed to a separate RV pedestal box that would finally have the breakers and outlets for the 15 amp, 30 amp and 50 amp outlets.
Brian
Brian you are right. The large flex pipe is maybe only an inch covered with dirt and only in a few places, that's why I said it would be easy to expose. This does go to a separate panel that has all the breakers for my house and even one labeled "main".
My mom's is done exactly the same and they were done at least about 10 years apart (though hers does not have a roof over that area). They were both done by the same contractor and both approved by the county of Kern. They are also within just a couple feet of our water inlets that supply our home and yard. And both of our septics are within 10' of these power poles too..... The meter reader doesnt read these meters anymore and instead we have the new ones out close to the street. But I have additionally set up my sprinker system in that area and although I dont directly water that area, the backflows are there....
For the people advising me and following along this craziness with me, I made some photos for you. Im on down time with this right now because Im waiting for help. A neighbor is supposed to come over and help me get another breaker in the panel. Im having a lot of problems trying to push that little bugger into place! And yes...... sigh, as you all knew and I did not..... the 30amp adapter I made was only 3 wires whereas my 30amp that I just installed is 4 wires.... So off to HD I went again and this time I got another 30amp breaker with the correct RV plug which will be dedicated for RV cords.
Here's pics of my progress and the tools Im using and stuff. This time I even put captions to explain it. http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/ (http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/)
Well HCB, with all of the revisions it looks like you'll be done with that about the same time I'm headed south for the winter. :D Save me spot. jm
p.s. I'm guessing it's warm there in the winter!
Teresa,
When I saw the pics you posted, I went for popcorn and a soda, to watch how this thread would play out. I didn't post (even though I am a licensed master electrician), because I knew others would chime in. No doubt, there are things that need to be fixed. You have gotten some good advice.
Good for you for fixing it.
God bless,
John
I really want this to be done right, and that is a lot of the reason I posted here about this project. I do want ya all to come on over, but I want you to know it is safe ;)
John316 :P ;D
Challenge come on down! As for winter weather..... sometimes yes, sometimes no. But even our worse is better then most places
Im gonna have to pick back up on this project later this weekend.
Quote from: Len Silva on April 15, 2011, 06:51:23 AM
I'm a little late to the party here. I see no problem with having the 20 amp outlet on the left side as long as you protect it with a single pole 20 amp breaker. There is room in the panel.
Len, it's hard to tell from just a photo, but it looked to me like the wire ingress from that nipple would interfere with placement of a breaker in the bottom-left-most space (currently vacant).
Since the manufacturer did not put a KO there (it was drilled out in the field) it may not really comply with the listing terms of the enclosure. This would be a case of having to consult the panel manufacturer to be sure.
Relocating the nipple down to the KO area at the bottom of the panel would be easy, safe, and sure to be compliant. Probably easier to do than get an answer from the manufacturer or a ruling from code enforcement.
JMO.
Teresa: We seem to be bouncing back and forth here since you are posting in two places (the other being on BNO). I answered some of your questions over there, including ones in your photo captions.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: bevans6 on April 15, 2011, 05:08:44 AM
I took another look at the photo's on the first page. The small metallic sheathed cable that is buried is the ground to the ground stake. The larger poly-looking sheathed cable is not buried, it is above ground feed directly into the house about 4 feet back of the pedestal.
Brian, you and I must be looking at different photos.
In photo #1, I see two FMC's leaving the box. The large one clearly goes underground. That's not permitted, even for a few inches, although in this photo it disappears behind what looks like a coat, so it's impossible to tell how far it runs underground. The smaller one disappears off frame to the bottom right of the photo. However, based on other photos of the interior, I also speculated that this contained the driven ground wire:
Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2011, 08:56:32 PM
I didn't see where the small one goes, but I was guessing that it is carrying the driven ground and it only goes as far as the rod. Since it would not be buried it would be OK so long as this is not considered a "wet location". The large one is definitely a problem.
In photo #8, I again see the large and small conduits, and in this photo both disappear off-frame at the bottom of the photo. I also see a flexible gas line, to the right of those, which happens to be gray and might be confused for the continuation of one of the conduits (it's not). It appears to run to the structure to the right. I assume it comes up from the ground off-frame below.
I've gone through all the other photos Teresa has posted and I don't see where you are seeing the large FMC running above ground to a building.
That said, even if it was above ground, if it is outdoors and uncovered at any point, it is considered a wet location and FMC may not be used.
I'm not sure how this passed inspection, but it did. And I see FMC used outdoors all the time; spend any appreciable amount of time on the roofs of commercial buildings and you will eventually see tons of it festooning package HVAC units. It happens. Which is one reason why I said that, as long as it already passed, I would leave it alone until it becomes a problem. But if a tradesman had done that on one of my jobs, I would make them rip it out and do it right.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
No, Brian is right about the large flexible pipe. It runs right at the surface of the dirt up to the house and then curves and runs up the wall inside to another panel box with breakers for a bunch of different things in my house. Which is exactly the same as my mom's house does....... Down here at work though, we have the galvanized fence post stuff running to the panels and meter outdoors..... The storage shed facility I work at was built about 7 or 8 years ago.... Maybe it is a commercial/residential thing?
As for the smaller flexible pipe, Im not sure where that goes to..... but it does go down deep. I know it's deep because near this area I had to dig down about 3' for a heavy duty foundation for another project Im doing.
Im going to have to hunt around for a National Electric Code book. Since I need to learn this stuff, I would like to learn the correct way so if there is ever any problem I wont get hung!
And as for the "coat" in the background lol ::) Now you guys are really gonna think Im a hick ;D ;D ;D Like I said, last year I put in filtered water with a spigot for RV pad and installed backflows for sprinklers in that area..... My mom got real sick and so I had to abandon the project for awhile. That was last fall. In order to make sure none of my pipes froze during the winter and for quick covering of everthing, I hung an old brown sleeping bag there and covered other pipes with old rugs and whatever I could find in a hurry.
The welder outlet is once again installed, but Ms Cheapo here didnt buy another outlet box for it and will once again have to reinstall it ::) http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/ (http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/)
Back to the RV hookups ;D I have everything almost ready to close up (the album is posted above) But my panel is on the full side, and I have run out of space on the green bar...... can I put a ground wire on the white bar?
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Here is the book I use for my reference, when planning for electrical work. http://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Code-Simplified-Ontario-Knight/dp/0920312365 (http://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Code-Simplified-Ontario-Knight/dp/0920312365)
It's issued by the Ontario, Canada government but likely is useful in your area as well. Not a substitute for a electrician or an inspection/permit. If you buy a guide book make sure it is new and check the publishing date, since codes and good practice evolves continually.
On your ground wire question, I would put two of the smaller green wires under one screw head. I believe that is acceptable.
Brian
I put two wires in the green bar here in oregon, and it was approved... but i asked the inspector when he was doing his preliminary check, because the box i was using didnt have a green bar, and i had taken one out of another box, and it only had 3 lugs instead of your 4. as far as code date.... this was in July 2010.
Thanks Chev and Brian! Next paycheck, Im getting "the book" ;) I have a LOT to learn!
Im going to close it up today, take more pics and then call that electrition who wouldnt teach me.
On aside, I did a neighborhood looky lue and saw that the places around here that have gone up in the last 5 years or so do all have the hard conduit coming out of their meter boxes but the places older then that all have the flexible stuff like ours. So I guess the code changed within the last 10 years and we are grandfathered in....
You guys have all been awesome throughout this whole thing!!! Thank you VERY much!!!
You may well be grandfathered but any work on the system has to be done to current code. I recently had a new breaker panel installed, and the access and grounding had to be redone as it met code when it was installed, but didn't meet current code. So watch out for or take advantage of that, at some point.
Brian
No! It isn't Ok. That is why they have two discreet bars. One is for "grounding" and the other is for "bonding" as I understand it. One is the AC neutral phase and the other is Earth ground for the safety circuits that get the green wire. Not trying to sound harsh or abrupt.....just succinct.
Just so happens that a earth ground by way of a bar driven into the earth is the AC neutral connection. At the pole, there is a Neutral phase coming off the transformer. That wire runs down the pole and directly into a bar that has been driven into the earth. The gap between the pole bar and the bar at your box is supposed to be conductive and is part of any circuit that uses the neutral phase......115 is an example or single phase 208 but that neutral isn't in any circuit that is called two or three phase....in terms of it being a current carrier.
Now that bonding thingy, at least in my house, is a wire running to my "in the earth gas line and my "in the earth" water line. Same earth but one system uses a bar and the other uses water pipes. Both circuits should show no potential between them and, for all intents, they are identical. Many RVs have a nasty habit shocking you if you get between the fram of theCode says "NO". They must be separate and stand alone. Either will serve as a neutral ground but there are differences. They both use different size wire.
One bad thing is that if you disconnect a neutral wire it then will become "hot" and if you touch it you will become the "completion leg" of the circuit.....Not good and very exciting. That won't happen with a green wire bonding circuit unless there is a short circuit with a device and that green wire is trying to carry current due to a coincident malfunction. ( that was for Sean)
I have two beefy, over-sized copper conductors, solid, running into my box. Where they go underground they have a cable splice nut attached to each. So I have a connection to two ground bars, a gas pipe, a water pipe, re-bar sticking out of the foundation and to three Electrical Metal Tubing runs that feed out the downside of the box. EMT is approved by code as a current carrier for Bonding but not for neutral. That is four ground connections per code and four more. I like overkill if it is free.
But, NO......you can't connect them together inside the box or where the inspector might see them.
It is always poor form and not conducive to communication to start an answer with "NO". Works pretty good for affect, however.....No?
Good luck with this. You seem doomed to a successful conclusion. Glad to hear that.
John
No??? Argh!! John, no wonder people hit the ignore button on you lol Dang! I noticed you didnt give me any alternative solutions either.... me thinks you would have me just do a separate panel box for all of this? If so, just say so. Yes I am "doomed to do this right" lol
Now guys, we have conflicting advice...... what does the code say and where does it say it?
I havent updated my album yet, but I did connect the ground to another ground lug that already had a green wire. Everything was tested and works....
Edit: I just reread your post again John ;D Sorry! You were just explaining to me why I couldnt put the green ground wire on the neutral bar!
Pics will be in the album in about 5 min.
I'll let Sean confirm because I'm looking at a 22 year old code book.
I don't think you need to separate the neutral and grounds here because this is a service entrance panel. The neutral obviously comes in from the meter can on the metal strap which does not appear to be isolated. It looks like it is bonded to the panel.
At any other panel, the one in the mobile home, the one in the bus, or any outbuilding, they do need to be separated.
Teresa, not quite as easy as you thought it was in your first post is it. ;D
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on April 19, 2011, 08:17:27 PM
Teresa, not quite as easy as you thought it was in your first post is it. ;D
:o :P ;D
Quote from: Len Silva on April 19, 2011, 02:56:23 PM
I don't think you need to separate the neutral and grounds here because this is a service entrance panel. The neutral obviously comes in from the meter can on the metal strap which does not appear to be isolated. It looks like it is bonded to the panel.
Len is correct; in this service entrance panel, neutral and ground are electrically identical and all the lugs are bonded to the panel. From a neatness and best practice standpoint, it would be best to use separate bars for neutral and ground. I always recommend this for main panels, so that they can easily be converted to sub-panels later if need be. However, if you really don't have enough lugs of various sizes to do this, it's OK to mix them.
Quote from: JohnEd on April 19, 2011, 01:27:23 PM
No! It isn't Ok. That is why they have two discreet bars.
You would be correct for a sub-panel. But see above.
Quote
One is for "grounding" and the other is for "bonding" as I understand it.
Now you are confusing things. The ground bus, where the "grounding conductors" are connected, IS the bus where the bond is made. Not the other bus. IOTW, the ground bus is always bonded to the panel itself.
The other bus is the "neutral" bus and is for the neutral, or "grounded" conductors (how's that for confusing terminology -- one of the instances where you really have to know how to read the code). This is the bus which, in a sub-panel, is NOT bonded to ground. In a sub-panel that has been converted to a main service entrance panel, the bond can be made with a "bonding jumper" between the two buses.
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One is the AC neutral phase
Again, this is very confusing terminology and not correct. "Neutral" is not a "phase" -- the phases are the hots, and the neutral is grounded (at the service entrance).
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Just so happens that a earth ground by way of a bar driven into the earth is the AC neutral connection. At the pole, there is a Neutral phase coming off the transformer. That wire runs down the pole and directly into a bar that has been driven into the earth.
Actually, it is customary for the driven ground to be at the service entrance, not at the pole.
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... but that neutral isn't in any circuit that is called two or three phase....in terms of it being a current carrier.
Also not true. First off, there really isn't any such thing as a "two-phase" circuit. There is single-phase, such as what your house uses, and three-phase, which many commercial and industrial buildings use, and also some campgrounds.
A 240-volt single-phase circuit, or a three-phase delta circuit, will not have a neutral. However 120/240 split-phase circuits and three-phase wye circuits do have neutrals, and these neutrals do, indeed, carry current. Three-phase in campgrounds will be the wye variety, and a 50-amp pedestal with have two phase wires and one neutral wire in addition to the ground. Unlike a 240-volt split-phase circuit, this neutral will always carry some current, even if the loads on the two phase wires are exactly balanced.
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... Many RVs have a nasty habit shocking you if you get between the fram of theCode says "NO". They must be separate and stand alone. Either will serve as a neutral ground but there are differences. They both use different size wire.
???
Quote
... So I have a connection to two ground bars, a gas pipe, a water pipe, re-bar sticking out of the foundation and to three Electrical Metal Tubing runs that feed out the downside of the box. ... That is four ground connections per code and four more. I like overkill if it is free.
I think you may be misinterpreting the reasons for the bonding of the water and gas lines. These do not serve as grounding for your electrical system; in fact, it would be dangerous to use a gas line for this purpose. The reason these pipes need to be bonded to the ground system and to the driven ground is in the event that something accidentally energizes the pipes. For example, a faulty electric water heater might energize the water pipes; without the connection or 'bond" to the electrical ground system, no breaker will trip and the pipes might be energized to a dangerous voltage. By bonding the pipe system electrically, such a fault will complete the circuit and trip the breaker. Similarly, you want to ensure that all these systems are forced to the same potential if they come out of the ground in different places.
Hope that clears some things up.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
huh? so my interpretation I guess it is okay to put it on the green or white bar in the service panel, BUT in the sub panels it would have to go on the green bar only? Does the NEC come with a dictionary lol?
Excellent question HCB --- actually there are TWO books that are available that refer to the electric code.
There is THE CODE BOOK which is written in what appears to be code --- once you understand it is pretty easy to find what you need and easy enough to understand
There is also what I call the users guide --- I haven't bought one for the last two code books (electric code is upgraded every three years 1999 2002 2005 2008 2011 etc) that explains in layman terms all the code talk and specifically addresses code changes -- if you would like I can get the REAL name so you can look it up --- also if I remember correctly it is more expensive than the code book.
HTH
Melbo
Quote from: Melbo on April 20, 2011, 08:05:42 AM
... actually there are TWO books that are available that refer to the electric code.
... There is also what I call the users guide ... that explains in layman terms all the code talk and specifically addresses code changes
I believe what you are referring to is the "National Electrical Code Handbook," also published by NFPA and released with (or shortly after) each code revision:
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=70HB11 (http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=70HB11&cookie_test=1)
This book, which, as you note, is more expensive ($149) than just the Code, contains the full text of the Code inside, so it is actually a larger book (even though the word "handbook" might lead you to believe the opposite). But along with the code it also contains additional notes, photographs, illustrations, and explanations. When I bought my first NEC many years ago, this was the edition I chose, and it was invaluable in helping me to understand the meaning and reasoning of some of the more obscure code passages. As you wrote, once you know your way around the code, having the extra notes becomes less important, and when I bought subsequent editions I bought just the plain code. Nowadays I buy it in downloadable PDF format, so I don't even have a book lying around the house.
If you are going to buy either edition, I highly recommend you wait for the 2011 edition, due out later this year. Otherwise you will be stuck with the 2008 edition, soon to be superseded. The 2011 will be in effect through 2014.
There are also a number of third-party books and guides for electricians that are smaller and less expensive than either of these. In addition to be written more in "plain English," they stick to covering only the topics you are more likely to encounter. So, for example, when you buy the Code, you are getting a chapter dedicated to wiring in theaters, which have specialized requirements, that most people, even professional electricians, will never need. The basic guides omit those sections, as well as sections on wiring over 600 volts, low voltage cabling, and the like. Often these books are a better choice for the handyman, but you need to get one based on the most recent code (at this writing, 2008). Also note that none of the basic guides will cover the special provisions that pertain to RVs. For that, I recommend George Myers' book.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Okay, I have some other projects Im working on at my property. I believe the book with the illustrations for dummies is exactly what I need. Yes, it is more $ but still cheaper then hiring an electrition and with simplified instructions at my level (like what I got here in this thread!) I wont kill myself........ WIN-WIN
George Meyer's book is as good as ordered!
Thanks again!
Ya know, we are really very proud of you. Perhaps it's because you are a girl in a man's world here, but you more than hold your own.
Look over this whole thread and imagine that it was started by a guy. In the vast majority of cases, ego would have gotten in the way of listening and the thread would have disintegrated into how stupid the codes are and I ain't gonna follow no stupid code.
So, even though I disagree with you on politics, you are one cool chick!
;D ;D ;D
Ok, I couldn't decide between
"jeez, len, get a room"
"Dude, ask her on a date already"
and
"Code? CODE??? I don't need no stinkin' code!"
so you got all three... ;D ;D ;D
OK, now group hug... ;)
Brian
Brian
Well, more like a daughter or even grand daughter, but yeah, group hugs are fine.
secondary panels to green bar by itself (at least here)... and im still using the 05 book....and NEC isnt difficult to understand if u actually read it carefully
The 2011 code and "handbook" is already available and being enforced here
Melbo
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fcatalog%2FproductImages%2F300%2F7b%2F7bec1885-8d60-41ed-b093-b2bed1ed0c4f_300.jpg&hash=e130be67b123b4aca3503cd7fe41e9a81f933a6b)
Quote from: Len Silva on April 20, 2011, 10:07:20 AM
Ya know, we are really very proud of you. Perhaps it's because you are a girl in a man's world here, but you more than hold your own.
Look over this whole thread and imagine that it was started by a guy. In the vast majority of cases, ego would have gotten in the way of listening and the thread would have disintegrated into how stupid the codes are and I ain't gonna follow no stupid code.
So, even though I disagree with you on politics, you are one cool chick!
WOW!!! I just really dont know what to say except...... awe, shucks. What a giant compliment, and coming from you who I often clash with on political stuff and all! Wow! Thank you ;D But honestly Len, I have seen several of the guys in here take beatings on thier projects...... Im not the only one. I think we mostly all come here to learn and not just to pump our chests. But I am really, really flattered. Thank you ;)
Quote from: bevans6 on April 20, 2011, 10:16:35 AM
;D ;D ;D
Ok, I couldn't decide between
"jeez, len, get a room"
"Dude, ask her on a date already"
and
"Code? CODE??? I don't need no stinkin' code!"
so you got all three... ;D ;D ;D
OK, now group hug... ;)
Brian
Brian
BIG GROUP ((((HUGS))) And I might add that I sent the album link to my son who now thinks he has the coolest mom ever!! Absolutely PRICELESS!!!!
Um, but he just dont know how VERY MUCH help I got here!! I told him, but he doesnt get it and wont do forums or facebook or any of the social stuff (he's wierd for a kid...... what can I say, although he has dad who wont teach him anything about cars and a mom who is bound and determined to do a complete bus conversion so I guess strange things are to be expected lol Poor kid!)
Quote from: Len Silva on April 20, 2011, 10:39:00 AM
Well, more like a daughter or even grand daughter, but yeah, group hugs are fine.
Can I borrow the keys to the bus? Can I have some cash? What's for dinner? ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: chev49 on April 20, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
secondary panels to green bar by itself (at least here)... and im still using the 05 book....and NEC isnt difficult to understand if u actually read it carefully
Thanks for info!
Quote from: Melbo on April 20, 2011, 03:35:05 PM
The 2011 code and "handbook" is already available and being enforced here
Melbo
Good News!!
Quote from: eagle19952 on April 20, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fcatalog%2FproductImages%2F300%2F7b%2F7bec1885-8d60-41ed-b093-b2bed1ed0c4f_300.jpg&hash=e130be67b123b4aca3503cd7fe41e9a81f933a6b)
hmmm, maybe this would have helped at home but Im sure it wont help me in doing the electric on the bus....