Updated...see below....
Any guesses? I will post pictures tomorrow. I will say, it was so bad that Coach-net wouldn't even cover it, and no we weren't off road....
I have to get some sleep. I have been working hard for the last five hours, and am ready for bed.
God bless,
John
My guess:
Smoked a wheel bearing and welded the spindle?
Wait, you said worst...
Brakes let it roll into the Grand Canyon?
See, it wasn't the worst.
Still sorry to hear you're having troubles.
John,
Don't tell me you took my shortcut in Canada and ended up on a unplowed road out in the middle of nowhere. I would sure feel bad!
I hope and pray everything goes better for you in the morning.
Gary
your brakes failed and you ran over someone/something?
I really hope Im wrong.......
Fire?
High-centered on some railroad tracks?
Bob
when you say worst, that can paint pretty bad images... Reasonably bad, trying to avoid a car or person and end up burying to the frame in a ditch.
He did say IN a bus! Dropped your bottle of Glenfiddich and it broke? Mother in law decided to move in? Kid's decided to move in? Termites? Haunted? TV remote broke? Burnt your souffle? JIm
I always love it when someone says something major happens and then tells me nothing. That's how news netoworks make their money. Comon, you are keeping us in suspense what happened?
John,
You are here to tell us about it, so it can't be the worst. I hope that was nothing serious. I will wait for photos.
Good Luck
Mike
Folks, sorry for the delay. Internet has been really bad.
You all are right. It wasn't the worst thing that could happen, I was just tired last night, and it seemed like it was just about the worst...lol
Y'all ever heard of sinkholes? Well we found one. Passenger front and back, sunk in to the axle. It was instantaneous. I have pictures, and will see when we can get them uploaded.
Basically, it took a truck wrecker, and a very large wheel loader, 4 hours to get us out.
I will get the pics up as soon as possible.
God bless,
John
You might consider yourself very lucky that it didn't swallow the whole bus with you in it. I don't know where you are but in Florida it happens quite often, swallowing entire houses. Insurance companies are refusing to write coverage for sinkholes here.
In addition, you were lucky to get anyone who would go anywhere near the bus to try to pull it out.
For what reason did Coach-Net refuse to pay? Where you off road?
Im thinking the insurance co says it is an "Act of God" ........ usually insurance wont cover stuff like that.
Glad you are ok that's what is most important. I had the idea that your engine blew in the middle of nowhere or worse, in a location where the locals hate people. There seems to be alot of sinkholes popping up all over.
Ouch! That doesn't sound like any fun at all.
I will see if my internet will let me get a couple of pictures up.
We were on a regular city street. Is what happened, is there isn't drainage, in this town. Well, with all of the melting, and the roads not being built write, it just decided to give way, and took us with it.
The locals were VERY friendly. We were certainly blessed to get stuck at that little town. They were also VERY helpful. The wrecker couldn't have gotten us out, if it weren't for the locals.
Coachnet said that it was a recovery operation, so they wouldn't cover it. I am going to go to bat with them, when we get back to the states.
We were VERY blessed though. No major damage to the bus. We were seriously thinking that the bus would be scrap. When we were working on getting it up, the frame was being racked. We ended up, dragging it out. We had no idea what would happen, but we were out of options. As firmly as it was stuck, we expected we could lose an axle, rip something, who knows. This was after we had spent hours exhausting every other possibility. The wrecker (tandem axle semi wrecker) wasn't able to pull us out on his own (he was sinking too). So the locals chained their very large wheel loader onto the front of the wrecker, and it was just about everything both of them could do to drag us out. They got us out of the whole, and we plowed asphalt for about half a block, before we were free.
It all turned out well. Just a broken windshield, and a door that doesn't latch right. I was expecting stress cracks on the frame, but I haven't seen any yet. Those tow hooks that are on the front of MCI's are STRONG, that is what we hooked up to. The Canadian mountie that came out, was super friendly, and stayed the whole time (accident report is funny). We had people in lawn chairs drinking sodas and watching. There were probably ten locals working on it, the town "mayor" came out. It was the most excitement that little town has had in a long time. The people were all SUPER friendly and helpful. That was THE place to get stuck. If it wasn't our bus, I would have enjoyed the whole operation ;D.
We had to flush the front passenger bearings, last night, because grit got in there.
Okay, now to try to get some pics up.
God bless,
John
Both front and back passenger axles were sunk in.
I will get more pics up of the wrecker, and the rest of the process, later on.
What town, province were you in?
JC
I dont know if you would want to do this, or what the Canadian laws are...... but I do know that in San Luis Obispo California you have 6 months to file a claim with the county if there is damage to your vehicle resulting from pot holes...... this kinda puts "pot hole" on a whole different level :o
This thread with all the guessing going on, shows a lot about those of us who took shots at guessing. It shows our own worse nightmares! Jim's nightmares are funny ;D
JC, we were in a little town outside of Medicine Hat, Alberta.
Brat, we could see what we could do with them, but it was a tiny town. They don't have money, and we are very blessed that we still have our bus.
We wondered if the city could try to sue us, but I really doubt that will happen. In fact the local "code enforcement" guy told us that he was going to tell us not to pull onto that part. So they knew, and didn't have cones around it. Oh well, it all turned out well.
Seriously, though, we didn't know if we would get it out with major damage. There was that potential.
But, once again, we are very blessed. The locals were SUPER friendly, and had the equipment that was needed. The wrecker driver was a pro, and got us out with VERY little damage, compared to what it could have been. It gave the locals something to talk about, and they had a great time.
It was also fun to see what others thought was the worst case scenarios. We are blessed.
God bless,
John
This was the firm side of the street. I think I have pics of the deep part. It was broken up like this, when we were done for half a block. It was a mess.
One other thing....
I am so grateful that we have a bus. Seriously, I doubt that a S&S would have made it. That little episode tested the frame, pretty well. So far, when we have inspected it, we haven't seen any issues.
So if you want something tough....GET A BUS!!!
John. It looks like it was under construction. In the states it is the contractor that would be liable during the construction period. Glad it worked out with minimal damage! Sure got a story for busnut gatherings. Bob
Actually, Bob, there was no construction. No warnings. Nothing. Looked like a regular city street. Wasn't. Lol
God bless
John
Just happy that it's out and rolling along again. You have a great outlook John. Hopefully all will work out on the $$ end. If not you have a great story and the pics to prove it!!!
It might be a good idea to take it up to Big Rig Collision in Calgary and get the underneath checked out. I had a wrecked bus repaired there once (160K worth!) and they did a good job. They know what they are doing. Major coach rebuilders. Speak with the owner, Brad, a good guy.
John, your lucky that model of MCI has a frame if it broke the windshield I would follow Boomer advice and let Brad or Sam check it out for you the damage may not show up for a few years then it will to late for a claim he is a nice guy he walking James through replacing a section on a Prevost over the phone and it is looking good
good luck
it looks to me kinda like normal break up time in alaska... with ground thawed out under the vehicle and still mushy. Canada would be the same depending upon the location...For 4wd pickups n trucks, in my business n alaska, i carried various jack n plywood n boards up to 4x6 in case i got stuck cause i frequently went off pavement. (not much of that in the boonies...) That being said, a 45' bus would take all day to jack up one side,... and 6x8 or so lumber... and one would have to dig to china for the first holes for the 30 or so ton jack... but i've only been buried with my 26000 lb box truck in AK... much less work than this accident. Glad that i don't have to do that anymore cause im 66.
(Well, almost.. I got an asphalt roller stuck two days ago when i brought it here to repair it for a customer... ;D )
Boomer and Clifford, thanks for the suggestion. We would have done it, in a heartbeat, except for one thing. We are back in the states in Minot, ND. We will be up here in the Dakota's for two weeks, before heading south again.
Do you guys have any more suggestions for us? I agree, I would like a qualified shop, that knows frames, to look over it.
Chev, actually, we tried jacking it. The problem was, when you put something underneath, it just started to disappear. At one point, the wrecker lifted the back of the bus, and put blocks underneath. Those 6x6 just started to disappear into the ground. Anything that we put under the tires, disappeared. It was a mess.
Thanks,
John
Motor Coach Industries
552 West Stutsman Street
Pembina, ND 58271-4308
(701) 825-6234
That street looks like "Radiator Springs" after Lightning McQueen went through it in the movie "Cars"!
Glenn
MCI's have frames? what?!?
Thanks for the idea, BK.
Tenor, the street was a MESS. I will see if I can get a pic of the whole thing.
Thomas, if it would have been any lessor frame, or a S&S, I would be selling a bus (with a nice engine and tranny) for scrap.
So for the recap on how to get out of a minor sinkhole in twelve easy steps ;D.
1. Pray that your frame is strong.
2. Pray that your frame is strong.
3. Attempt to lift/jack the axles up (probably won't work, if it is a true mush sinkhole).
4. Attempt any other ideas the bystanders have ;D.
5. Make sure RCMP are on their way for an accident report (LOL, I know, strangest the officer said he has filled out).
6. Call tow truck (big one).
7. Keep attempting to jack bus.
8. Neighbour grills dinner for work crew, while waiting for wrecker.
9. Wrecker arrives, and the operator tries everything he can think of.
10. Decide to go for it and simply drag it out (serious damage may occur).
11. Hitch up wrecker, and pull. Wrecker doesn't have enough power, hitch up loader to wrecker.
12. Both loader and wrecker succeed, but it takes everything both have to get it out.
And a couple more pics....
Amazing pics John! I probably would have used some similar words that you did only in a different order! But I sure would have had a big Amen at the end just as you did! I just wouldn't have imagined something like that happening. Glad to see you are no worse for the wear!
How did you get out your door ???
This is something I can see myself getting in to. Glad you are out without major damages. Quite unbelievable !!
I see someone had the foresight of losing the loader/forklift front tire & getting a road plate to spread the load (second pic). I will save all from the stories of losing the rescue vehicle in the same predicament as the initial vehicle.
From looking at the rut/hole after the bus was removed, did not appear to have residual water. Could this have been from thawing, as mentioned earlier ??
Very Good to see you and your beautiful coach are out.
Quote from: niles500 on April 09, 2011, 12:37:04 AM
How did you get out your door ???
I see a step ladder next to an open curbside rear window...
Brian S.
After seeing all the mess I wonder: is it possible to have a set of lifting hooks installed at the front and rear bumpers, obviously connected to the frame?. They are not pretty, but surely would have helped.
The wrecker couldnt winch it out?
Niles, we used a ladder, and got out of the back window.
Gary, the pic was of the rut on the "firm" side. The other side (I will see what pics I have) was filled with water. So it was a combination problem.
Pipopak and opus, that is what we resorted to. I will post pics of the wrecker. The problem was, we risked HUGE amounts of damage, just dragging it out. When we exhausted every other option, we had to resort to that method. And amazingly it worked.
We were very blessed that we didn't have much damage. Just some minor body damage.
I did heavy recovery for a 10 years, which is why I asked. I would never attempt to pull that out by any mean other than winching. You'd sure better have an experienced operator when it comes to the situation that you found yourself in.
One other thing, we used the MCI factory tow hooks, on the front for the final winch.
The winching was the last resort, because of how firmly it was in. It could have caused a lot of damage. But we did have a very good operator, and that was his last ditch effort. He first tried to lift the axles out, but it was causing more damage.
Busses dont lift well. You can really do damage. I remember we had to be trained on how to lift and tow them properly.
When winching, you always pull opposite the direction you drove in, unless there is a specific reason not to. That is probably why it was more difficult than need be for them, if they pulled from the front.
Glad you got out in one piece....literally!
[edit] Mind you, about the lifting part. Wheel lifts were just starting to come into production when I was doing this. Obviously, with a wheel lift, there isnt much to know about lifting them. We had just 30 ton twin boom wreckers.
OK, by now is fairly evident that I don't know a lot about this matter, but I want to learn. I figure that lifting from the ends of the chassis is probably not good, what I meant about the hooks was to use them as towing points, attached to the chassis. From the pics I see John has nothing. About the tractor, what they did scared me with the fat chances of hitting something under the bus with the tongues. Please LMK if I am wrong again. Also, what is the right way to LIFT a bus from above?.
Opus, you are right. They don't lift well. However, we were lifting on the manufactured skids, that are underneath. That was a place that we could lift, according to what I have learned, and from what MCI tech support said. We started off trying to lift the body, which lifted the axle. MCI tech support said that lifting up wouldn't damage anything. I was concerned about the airbags. However, they said that the shocks will keep the airbags from ripping. The skids are heavy duty skids, that came from the factory. They are on there to keep the body from scraping, when there is low ground clearance. So we were lifting on a good point.
I was originally thinking that it would have to be lifted out with a boom wrecker. However, we couldn't get underneath where we needed to. There are dedicated lift points for the body. We have them right behind the front axle, and in front and behind of the rear axles.
Pipopak, you are right, lifting on the outers isn't grand. However, the front, where we were, was a good spot. You really don't want to lift on the back, though, because that is a fairly weak part. MCI said that we should sling from the just behind the rear axles. There are some heavy duty lift points there.
We have two tow hooks on the front. They are at the same place that the skids are. They were made for towing. They don't look like they are strong enough, but they are.
When we were using the loader, we were VERY careful how far we put those forks under. We didn't put them even too the axle. where we were home free.
I hope that helps. Let me know if there is anything else I can help answer.
All the roads wherever there is frost are on the half weight laws this time of year.
5 tons per axle is the usual sign you will see posted.
Best not start thinking about blame.
This is a dramatic example of why the frost coming out can cause big trouble.
In a couple weeks, it would be as hard as concrete...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
300# per sq inch are what our roads are during breakup.
BW, that is understandable to have the weight limits. However, there were NO posted weight restrictions. That was our saving grace. We weren't cited for anything.
Opus, that would make sense. But there weren't any signs posted. If there would have been signs, we wouldn't have even been on the road in the first place. We obey posted signs, and any other laws that we know of.
Sure glad you made it out of that mess OK, John. I don't envy you one tiny bit having to deal with that.
Hope the rest of your trip goes well!
Mark
Not enough signs to go around.
The only roads unaffected by the frost coming out are ones built with considerable aggregate bases, similar to the highway/interstate construction techniques, where there is no water in the road bed.
Everything else will tear up or sink in as the frozen moisture unfreezes and tries to drain away through the rest of the deeper frozen moisture.
My driveway at the recreational property is the consistency of wet cement right now, over a deeper layer of frozen hard. Shortly, once the wet can percolate away, it will be a gravel driveway, you'd never know.
Bad time to be wandering around with a heavy vehicle in frost effected areas.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
BW, you are right. They must not have wanted to invest in the signs. When one is from farther south, we don't know about that. We even went way farther north, then where this happened. Nobody ever mentioned it, and people just said to stay on pavement. We did, and we got stuck. The people in town said that they had never heard of this, nor seen anything like that before.
I am including a pic of the wrecker. That was when he was thinking that he would lift the front and back, then put blocks under it. That didn't work....
John, sure glad that you guys got out OK.
As this thread progressed, I kept thinking about our Eagle. I have no idea what a person could grab onto to safely extract the bus. I talked to Dan Lenz a bit when we last had our Eagle towed. Dan worked at Eagle and knows Eagles inside out.
He said you can grab onto the Torsilastic tubes in front. They used to put huge tow straps around both tubes and put a big piece of wood under the bumper and hook on to the wrecker hook. He said that worked OK, but that they lost several windshields on the new buses since the frame in the front flexed and torqued the glass. With the bus sitting on the ground, I am not sure how you would get to the tubes.
I have large hydraulic cylinders that I could use to lift the bus, but the ground would probably not support the rams.
I hope I don't have to find out.
Jim
Okay, folks. Here are the final pictures.
The bus pulls to the right, a little, but nothing major. hopefully an alignment will take care of that. Other then body damage, windshield, door being racked, and a few other minor things, we escaped with little damage. We are blessed.
If we can't find another good shop, en route, we will probably swing down to Sam Caylor, to have him inspect the frame (if he agrees).
Jim, I have no idea how one would pull out an Eagle, in our situation. We were VERY blessed to have the tow hooks on the front. I was amazed that they were strong enough.
God bless,
John
What a nightmare John!!! I hope I never have to deal with something like that.
I noticed the asphalt was extremely thin. It might be wise to avoid the frost thawing time. Does it last long? what do locals do? semi etc? Should I avoid these areas for certain times of the year? or is this a isolated problem? how did tow truck get there without falling thru? curious Bob
I misstated our road restrictions. They are 300# per inch of width of tire.
so your saying a 315 tire would be around 3800lb per tire. or only about 7600 lbs on front axle.
That would be correct. Mind you, we are all gravel roads.
is that like march thru april?
Oh no, its a bit longer than that. Its about 3-4 months.
This might have been a good place to use oneofthose inflatable air bags. If you could have gotten it up a bit and shored under the wheel, up some more, more shoring, etc., you could have just backed it out without all the trouble. Maybe.
But hindsight will always be 20/20.
My MC5 was sitting on a front flat, and with no air in the system it was very hard getting under it with any kind of jack. I thought then about an air bag. That would have been slick.
I wonder if you could lift the front wheel with a farmers jack.
note to self:stay a snow bird my front axle load is 11,400 that' 40% over allowed