I am having trouble with the smell when I open the ticket window while driving. It takes about 2 seconds to fill the bus with the smell from the vacuum that is getting pulled from the open window. Am I vented wrong at the tank or what?
one tank or two? if one you toilet slide valve should keep it from entering coach. If one vent for both make sure your water traps have water in them.
just have the one tank for black and gray. I know I need to change the gasket for thr ball valve. I know the water traps are full. So what you are saying is if no water seal it will smell?
When you open the ticket window, you are putting a vacuum inside the bus and that is pulling the vapors from the tank(s).
Some possible solutions are:
1. Fix the toilet seal
2. Put a venturi fitting on the tank vent. http://rv-living-magazine.com/rv-tank-vents.html (http://rv-living-magazine.com/rv-tank-vents.html)
3. Put a power vent on the tank vent http://www.lslproducts.com/MK-IVPage.html (http://www.lslproducts.com/MK-IVPage.html)
4. Open another window in the bus to keep positive pressure in it.
I will look into that venturi when I get home. I don't think I am vented to the roof. At least I have never seen it up there. It may be just in the bay. Would there be enough air flow if I went to the bottom of the bus with the vent line if needed?
The vent should be to the roof in a constantly rising run of pipe, so that methane gas can rise out of the tank. A vent sideways or down will trap the methane, which can be quite dangerous. The vent should definitely not just be to inside a bay!
That said, thousands will now say they vent out the bottom and their bus never blowed up. True, but...
Basically you have to seal things as well as possible, and try to figure out a way that the pressure inside the tank is lower than that inside the bus. Not opening the ticket window is the first step, it pulls everything inside the bus odour-wise forwards. I think that opening a rear window would raise the pressure inside the bus.
Brian
I don't have the option of opening a rear window ??? For one I don't have one ( well I do but it swings out) and two I could not reach it if I did. I only open it if someone smokes to suck it out. I get grief on either smell. I was just hoping it was something that was set up wrong that I could fix. I do not have a smell problem unless I open it. It goes away quick just looking for options.
This topic has been discussed many times over and you will get just as many opinions. My combo tank is vented down and exits the bay floor then rearward wuth a baloney cut on the end of the pipe. I have yet to get any smell if ticket window is open or closed knorr has my bus blew up. At least that I'm aware of anyway. Nwck it may have and I'm not aware of it missing! Anyway, I guess the correct method if there is one is to vent it out the top but just to prove most theories aren't always correct, miner is as deceived and works just dandy. Ohhhhhhh by the way, I copied this installation from another bus nut and he too has no problems. His tank is square and mine is round if that helps.
Do it your way but sometimes when you go outside the box, you will find alternatives that work just fine and are simpler!
If you can access the tank, you may be able to see it there is what appear to be a vent pipe coming off it. If so follow it. Sometimes you will not see the vent on the roof because the builder ran it up under the refrigerator vent hood to avoid cutting another hole. That is the way mine is done. If there is no vent, I would look to the easiest way to create one. Fixing the the toilet will certainly make a big difference too.
I looked and it has no vent. There is a bung off the top of the tank. It is a square tank. I will run a vent from it and see if it helps. there is already a hole in the floor so I will run it through there with a venturi first and see if it helps. I do see a small hole in the weld for the bung so I guess it has been venting a little. I hope this helps.
Eddie,
Lots of ways to skin this cat.
Mine is thru the roof, adding a venturi stopped a similar problem to yours.
Cliff
I vented mine thru the floor with 2 pvc tubes. One is 2" and the other 1.5". The 2" has a 45* angle on the end right after it comes out of the floor and is angled back to "pull" (like a sand blaster). The 1.5" inch just goes out the bottom. The picture shows the 1.5" tube closest to you and the 2" on the other end of the tank.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FDSCN1255.jpg&hash=20d21ad9993aff875df6fba997d7dd9dc3f1095a)
It works fine and any sort of breeze will move the air thru the tank. I do not even get fumes in the coach when rollin down the road. That's nice!!!
As stated, it's definitely "thinking out of the box" and so far it seems to work quite well. But, as always, YMMD. I just wanted to come up with some way to not have to go thru the roof.
Chaz
p.s. Don't freak on the wiring. The pic was taken when I was working on that. It's cool. I promise. ;D
Chaz, I like that. Right above your valve I see a "t". Is that plugged?
I think you should get them out the top I have no trouble with smell. I have one vent for tank, one for the kitchen and one for the bath shower and sink. The pictures are of the tank and kitchen vents. The ticket window will suck you cup out if your are not watching.
John
Quote from: Chaz on March 30, 2011, 05:17:38 PM
I vented mine thru the floor with 2 pvc tubes. One is 2" and the other 1.5". The 2" has a 45* angle on the end right after it comes out of the floor and is angled back to "pull" (like a sand blaster). The 1.5" inch just goes out the bottom. The picture shows the 1.5" tube closest to you and the 2" on the other end of the tank.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FDSCN1255.jpg&hash=20d21ad9993aff875df6fba997d7dd9dc3f1095a)
It works fine and any sort of breeze will move the air thru the tank. I do not even get fumes in the coach when rollin down the road. That's nice!!!
As stated, it's definitely "thinking out of the box" and so far it seems to work quite well. But, as always, YMMD. I just wanted to come up with some way to not have to go thru the roof.
Chaz
p.s. Don't freak on the wiring. The pic was taken when I was working on that. It's cool. I promise. ;D
Looks like with this set up there is a chance of sewage sloshing out of tank when it is near full.
My observation
John
John,
My 4104 has the same setup except only one 1.5" vent tube. Two tubes are better but I didn't have that much space. Only one small tube causes the traps to be sucked dry during fast dumping but the solution to that is to dump slower.
Having that overflow feature is an added advantage - just in case. That is far better than any other overflow options!!
Our previous venturies on the roof were targets for tree branches, and always broke. We ran the new vent flush with the roof, sealed with silicon. Works well. If a few drops of rain get in- no big deal. We used flexible 3/4 hose connected to a brass barb fitting siliconed flush with the roof.
I had a horrific odor, think warfare, problem that eventually proved to be a hairline crack in a PVC sewer line that ran up behind the toilet to the roof. It was the black water tank vent. Did I mention that it was a "hairline crack"?
You get a serious "suck" going and it doesn't take much of a hole to cause pause.
It sounds like you have less of a leak when the interior is subjected to the "open toll window" thing. The interior should be under some slight negative(suck) pressure even with that window closed unless you have a lot of leaks on the front surface of the bus that are mildly pressurizing the interior. With the toll window closed try going back there and sniffing around. If there is no odor at all you are pressurized. If you have a slight odor....you are in luck. While underway, get a length of 2/8 hose, 4 ft, and start sniffing all the joints in pipes and the toilet seal and pipe runs. You will eventually find the gager and the leak.
You are supposed to have . read that as MUST, a 2 inch ID PVC vent pipe from the tank to the roof and that run must be verticle and have no bends. I once read that a single 45 degree bend was max but that sounds excessive to me. I also read once that there needs to be two vents from the black tank....dunno.
Ace has said before that his vent goes out the bottom of his bus. He is certainly proud of that vent and especially so in that it "flies" in the face of all the instruction and common logic. Nearly all, anyway. God bless him and his unusual success. There are a few thousand Knuts on here and I don't recall Ace getting another nod from anyone else that has run their vent out the bottom. Not saying a few don't exist, now, outta 3 thousand souls.....only say'n!!!! Were I Ace I wouldn't change my bus as long as that design works....why do so. Given that truth, I would do it like every instruction and spec says to do it at the outset to avoid problems. Run it out the roof like the "big kids". There are all kinds of unconventional stuff happening out there but who wants a Dr. that proposes to take your appendix out through your ear?????? Specially if your problem is with your gallbladder. All said and done, those unconventional folk enrich our lives and inspire fixes unique to "special" problems.
If you are just completely flummoxed by this problem I have a suggestion: Go to a AC specialist and have him plug your roof vent, add freon to your waste tank through a jerry rigged coupler , and run his sniffer around till he locates the "freon leak". And continue till he is sure there isn't a second leak.
You might simply pressurize the system sitting there and do the nose sniffer thing, also. We are talking a half pound of pressure don't forget. Don't want your potty bounce'n off the bathroom ceiling. The crack in my pipe was on the side to the wall and it too me months to find it and the fix cost less than a dollar.
Fun talk'n with ya,
John
If you use a small vent hose then when you flush you will pressurize the black tank and there will be a "puff" of gas back into the coach. BOOOOOO!
In my system I have 2 inch vent house. When I flush I can stand on the pedal and peer into the black tank with a flash light, it is a straight drop, and see the water level. NOTHING comes back up to discourage me. The air gets flowing in the right direction out the vent and can't change. Mind you, I have never positioned a brick on the dump pedal to test how long it would take for the gases to reverse flow. Just not a curious kinda guy or even that patient.
Good luck,
Use the correct design, vent pipe size, and DUMP FAST. Nobody likes to dribble shix.
John
I've heard that a black tank's vent should be large enough to let fresh air into the tank, to allow the aerobic bacteria to do their job in breaking down the contents (which supposedly will reduce the smell). Some folk here are using quite small black vents, obviously sufficient to let air in as the tank is dumped, but maybe not large enough for this aerobic thing to take place. So, who's right? Do the small-vent folk have smellier black tanks than the large-ventists?
As for the Through-The-Roof or Not-Through-The-Roof controversy, I have an idea which I want to run by you. Instead of maybe six roof openings (two vent pipes, the electric cables from PV panels, hot water pipes to and from solar water panels, and a cold water line to allow easy washing of the PV panels), I'm thinking of just one large-diameter pipe which would also be open at its bottom end under the floor. In other words, you would be able to look all the way through this mega-pipe, and see either sky or road. This pipe would simply be a conduit, inside which would be all the individual pipes and wiring that need to go up to the roof. Any rain would simply run down inside it and drain out the bottom straight onto the road. This conduit-pipe would need to be about 6" diameter or larger, but could easily be hidden inside one of the closets.
Is this a daft idea, or would it work? It's going to be a while before I start building my interior, so I've got plenty of time to think about its pros and cons. Has anyone here done anything like this?
Thanks, John
Well John, simply put, my vent going down works, has worked and has given us no smell under any condition. With that said, do you think if it didn't I would continue to come on here and publicly promote it?
I guess its just the same as when I used a round aluminum fuel tank to build my black tank. Ya'll said that couldnt be done too, or the fact that I hung it from the main floor frame structure, which couldnt be done, or have it mounted sideways rather than front to back, which couldn't be done, all for obvious and deadly reasons but I did and everything works just fine.
Think outside the box and not always what the book says.
Yea, i'm proud because it was cheap and it works....simply put!
As some one raised by a building contractor and worked with pluming for forty years the purposes for a vent pipe is to allow air to enter the pipes so that the water can suck the air behind it into the tanks. One vent is good for these buses (2 " ) and it must be higher than the highest water dump. There should be no more than a 45 degree turn in it.
My tanks are vented through the bottom also, only problem I've had is when the toilet valve quit sealing. Also have a power vent on the vent line for a little extra venting.
I have my 90 gallon gray/black tank vented through the bottom. One 2" vent on each side and have had no odor issues inside the coach.
For those with bottom vents, do you simply ignore the trapping of methane, do you believe methane doesn't exist, or do you think the methane somehow gets out the vent that you do have? Or do you think that letting the methane into the bus when you flush the toilet is a good option, presuming the toilet is a typical sliding trap type flush system?
Methane, also called swamp gas, is colourless and odourless, so you won't know it's there. But it assuredly is. It's not toxic, unless it is present is sufficient volume to displace oxygen, but it's quite flammable. Whether it would be possible to get sufficient volume inside the bus from gas leaking up into the bus from the toilet is another matter, I suspect not.
Brian
Hey Eddie,
I'm not going to get into a "back and forth" with others and the "codes". I just feel mine has natural venting capabilities and I'm fine with that. If they feel I'm too far outta the box, I'm ok with that. (hell, I'm an artist!! ;D ;D ;D) And I'm a firm believer in Einstein. Look below....
Sorry, I digress and I said I wouldn't. Nuff o' that.............
The "T", as it were" that I think I you are talking about, is another one of my creations. ;D ;D ;D (I'm just full of 'em!! or "sumthin", not sure what) Anyway, what it is, is a "t" that is adapted down on the horizontal opening to a garden hose size fitting with a on off valve on it. And below that, before it goes into the tank, is a large ball valve. The reason for this is if I am camping (and for all the "sticklers") where appropriate (whether they think so or not) I can close the big ball valve and open the hose valve and let the shower water (only) flow to an appropriate place, be it what it may. It saves on filling the tank with too much water too soon.
Does it work? You bet. Have I "HAD" to use it? Nope. I have not been so fortunate as to be able to be in my bus for that long.
I did that as a compromise to having two waste tanks, which I really wanted initially.
So there you have it. Hope I helped and did not get into any MORE trouble. ;D
Chaz
Just to prove that a vent does NOT have to go thru the roof, check out a "studor" valve. Its a small 2 inch valve that vents the line. We removed our they the roof black pipe vent in our house and installed one of these in our kitchen. It works, per a plumber wuth many years experience and its the ONLY vent on the house. No smells, no slow drainage, nada! If you can do this in a house that doesn't move, who says you can't do it in a bus? Just saying, unless of course the methane gas has are my brain up over the years.
This is just one example.
Why is it almost every topic results in a debate? Tried and proven but were still wrong. It's not the internet bully running people off, it's this exact thing. People beat a non issue to death and they are only posting what they think rather than what they have actually done. Read all your books, laws, and codes but remember, they are only there because they are. You would have to have a hell of a lot of methane gas built up to cause an explosion and who keeps their tanks full all of the time? I sure dont!
The AAV (studor) works different it sucks air in does not vent into the air, mobile homes have used those for years with one at every fixture to keep the water seal from being sucked dry,lot of RV's use the AAV but still vent the tank
good luck
Is there any advantage to plumbing the Methane back into the engine intake?
Hey, Ace, have you noted smells around your bus on the outside while parked? Does your "low vent" need to be in an area of low-pressure outside the bus (of course, that isn't hard, most areas under the bus are low-pressure) - does it pull the water out of the sink traps when the bus is moving? Thanks.
Good point Van!!! I like your way of thinking!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D lololol Einstein would be proud. LOLOL
And as far as the back and forth goes that Ace talks about - I think it's all good!!!!!!!! That is IF both parties wish to debate in a civil manner. Then it really is nothing BUT good!!! We ALL benefit!!
But, if it gets condescending, well, then people should back off and agree to disagree. We have all seen "issues" on here that set people off in a huff and it's VERY sad. We all lose. And, one of the things - probably the most IMPORTANT thing - is that you cannot use the expression in your voice in the written word to show whether you are joking or not and most of us are not "Great Literary Figures" to the point where we can make our point with our written words!! Hence, the Emoticons (sp?) above. i.e. :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( That helps everyone understand what the person is feeling as opposed to how he or she may be writting it.
So, please, keep the debates going. I love them and learn a TON!!! But, try to keep the civility to a max and condescension to a minimum.
Just my opinion,
Chaz
p.s. spell check is cool too. ;) ::) ;D
I have no smells our odors in or outside while moving or stationary. As for the traps? The traps do go dry after the bus sits at our house but only after about a month or maybe even more. We simply run some water in the shower and the two sinks and its as good as new and even when the traps are dry, IF you want yo call it dry, we get very little if any at all odor. Its so so slight that what is present that you just know to run some water.
You dont have to believe me. All I know is mine works without all the pipes and holes in the roof and so does my friends that I copied from. He too has never had a problem. Get maybe its just the good nature of the Prevost! LOL
Quote from: Ace on March 31, 2011, 07:38:10 AMI have no smells our odors in or outside while moving or stationary. As for the traps? The traps do go dry after the bus sits at our house but only after about a month or maybe even more. We simply run some water in the shower and the two sinks and its as good as new and even when the traps are dry, IF you want yo call it dry, we get very little if any at all odor. Its so so slight that what is present that you just know to run some water.
You dont have to believe me. All I know is mine works without all the pipes and holes in the roof and so does my friends that I copied from. He too has never had a problem. Get maybe its just the good nature of the Prevost! LOL
Thanks for that info. I have what appears to be an excellent spot that I can use for a similar vent -- but I thought (following the "conventional wisdom") that it wouldn't be a good idea. I'm glad to know that it's worked so well for you -- if I can make something similar work, then it will be a great benefit. And, if for some reason my bus construction means that it doesn't work on my bus, I can always cut a hole in the roof and reroute the vent. (But I sure hope that I don't have to.)
The secret to the odor is to keep the tanks clean if you plan on a lot of dry camping vent through the roof,I been around a few vented to the bottom they stink big time after a week and some of the dry campers hold the tanks for weeks.
Ever walk behind a tour bus with a load of Japanese tourist and the vent fan running as the do when parked or driving get a whiff of that lol.
I can see where Ace doesn't have a problem most of his trips according to his posts are always at some RV resort,but sewer gases stink plain and simple and are dangerous,but we all do it different
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on March 31, 2011, 08:10:35 AMThe secret to the odor is to keep the tanks clean if you plan on a lot of dry camping vent through the roof,I been around a few vented to the bottom they stink big time after a week and some of the dry campers hold the tanks for weeks.
Ever walk behind a tour bus with a load of Japanese tourist and the vent fan running as the do when parked or driving get a whiff of that lol. I can see where Ace doesn't have a problem most of his trips according to his posts are always at some RV resort,but sewer gases stink plain and simple and are dangerous,but we all do it different
good luck
But how do you keep tanks clean is you're doing "dry camping" and you're not attached to a RV campsite drain and you can't get to a dump station often? If you're planning to do mostly dry-camping, does that mean that the roof vent is probably going to work out to be better?
When you do dump do a good cleaning I use a washer system inside the tank to wash good after every dump not that hard to make one with a sprinkler head and pvc pipe dry camping for long periods I would vent to the top JMW
good luck
My 4903 vents to bottom. No problems. Dry camp for week, pumped out by"Bano Babes" at Terlingua after 5 days. They give me a package of Odorant that they use in Porto-potties. Some smell when nearly full, but it smells like cedar. WFM
Big John
PS. no odor when moving.
Big John, that is funny you guys at Terlingua couldn't smell anything walking around in the middle of all the chili,beer and tequlia farts lol
good luck
Hey Eddie,
I found another pic of the "shower diverter", as it were. Thought You might get a better idea from it in case you are still curious.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FShowerdrain.jpg&hash=528a1489918d9efafbbce0d69e350e1947b9d057)
Also, if you (or others) would like to see some other stuff about my bus, you can go here and look thru 5 pages of pix of various things I did. (Sandblasting, trany cooler access door, awning, interior and what things USE to look like!!!!) ;D
http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/Motor%20Coach/# (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/Motor%20Coach/#)!cpZZ1QQtppZZ16
Sorry they are not labeled well but, you should get an idea of what they are about. If you or anyone else has any questions, let me know. I will start another thread so we don't "jack" this one.
Chaz
With that vent setup Chaz the liquids in the tank have to force the sewer gas out and if don't buy that have the local gas co in your area sniff it with their gadget it will show nothing
good luck
Just made the call, luvr. I have a buddy who works for the Public Works and has a sniffer. I'll try to put this to rest.
But, it has a cross draft with the two tubes and the reason I used the different sizes. That alone should be enough, plus, with that, it brings in fresh oxygen and increases the anaerobic activity, which is what you really want for all reasons, especially smell and decomposition.
I'll give you the results when I get them.
Chaz
Do post it Chaz I just took my sniffer over to a friends GM and sniffed it and did the same on a roof mounted vent on a S&S job
good luck
Sewer gasses smell whether they are vented from the roof or out the bottom. Therefore, if you are venting out the bottom, there will be times when it will be noticeable. That does not mean that you will ever personally notice it, or that it is a problem for your neighbors-- it just could happen. There may be additives that can be used to reduce the odor if it ever is an issue, and it would not be a bad idea to keep some on hand. If you can go to the roof, it is better. If you can't, out the bottom is better than not at all. Mine goes up through the refrigerator chase. It is not ideal since it has a couple of els, but it does work too. As far as code and safety goes, it would seem that there could be a potential for a problem. It is sort of like making an electrical connection without a junction box; it may never fail, but in doing so you have removed an element of protection. I have seen unprotected electrical tie-ins that have functioned fine for 50 years. I am not recommending anyone take such shortcuts, but it would surprise me if no one ever has.
A gray water bypass, like Chaz has is common in single waste tank conversion. It can even be used to send gray water down the campsite drain to prolong dump intervals. I actually prefer not to use it when hooked up since all that extra water in the tank makes the dump really fast. It does not take much effort to pull the valve every couple of days.
Well said.
How's that for service!!! Jim just left and altho my tank was too "clean" to detect much, there was a noticeable small amount of air exchange going on which he said would be more than adequete to exchange the gas produced. (He was actually kind of impressed.)
So, if I get a chance, I'm going to get a "punk" (basically an incense stick) and use the smoke to see if I can get a better idea of what is actually exchanged. But don't expect this result to be posted soon. Too many other things to do. :P But I am totally satisfied with the outcome.
Use your best judgement and do it your way.
Chaz
Codes and books are great but, you have to consider why they write them. They are correct - most of the time - but that doesn't mean they are the only way. They just tell those of us who could/would screw up otherwise of a way that works. Think about it. If an early man felt that a wheel rolled fine on a round stick so no one ever thought to put grease on it, where would we be?? ::) ;D ;D ;D
My work here is done. ;) ;D
We all agree! poo stinks ! so lets keep it from the inside of coach by all means. vent's good water traps /with water in them. A sealing valve on toilet. vent to inside bay I question some what but if you are sure the inside of coach has no way of sucking odor from bay area good: wire hole to bay plumbing passage to bay Basically anything air can pass thru.. I have thru roof and don't get smell going down road. But once in awhile someone holds the toilet valve open longer than necessary. Well everyone's poo stinks. We don't have the trap like the home units. we also don't use 3 gal of water per flush. Bob
Well done all! Great Thread ;)
Where are the numbers he has numbers on his detector to measure ppm from 0 to 6500 I have a cheap one that does that
good luck
1.
1 Poo per million? ;D good deal! ;) ;D
I got a reading on the GM of 11PPM we added water it went to 700PPM stopped the water it fell back to 13PPM in less than 3 minutes, no air movement on a closed tank.
The S&S with the roof mounted vent was 824PPM steady never went up or down adding water, you don't need any thing fancy to test it with a CO detector will tell you we did that 2 lol the GM would not set it off till we ran water the S&S job would within 2 ft of the vent.
I don't care one way or the other how the guys vent their tanks the guy with GM laughed and said no reason I get no smell for about a week
good luck
Not sure I understand but, that's ok. I figure as long as i have air moving thru it, I'm good.
The test is, using a tool similar to a propane detector, to determine if trapped methane is naturally being vented or eliminated from the tank. what the test Clifford described showed is that the S&S with the correct roof vent constantly vented methane to the tune of around 800 PPM (this is the control in the experiment). The GM conversion with a low vent did not release trapped methane constantly to any degree, showed by a static test of 11 PPM. When they ran water into the tank to force displacement of gas, it rose to a level closer to what you would expect, 700 PPM, then rapidly declined to 11 PPM again. Thus proving that the low vent does not vent methane from the tank continuously.
Methane gas is basically natural gas, the same thing (less the added smelly sulphur compound and being otherwise processed and purified) as the natural gas used in furnaces, stoves, etc, in many homes. If you don't vent it, you are driving around with a tank full of natural gas, basically. It has no smell, you can't tell it's there without a detector tool. It would be fun to get a low vented bus and flush the toilet, or hold the valve open for a second, to see if methane gas comes into the bus from an improperly vented tank.
You can use a propane detector to test for methane because propane is basically a distillate of natural gas, which is mostly methane when it comes out of the ground.
BTW your theory that as long as you have air moving through the tank you are OK is, sadly, false. Methane is lighter than air so it can still get trapped in the high points in the system. But you are probably getting rid of enough that the remainder isn't a true hazard. If you decide to stay with what you have because it works well enough for you, then I have no issue with that. The only thing I have an issue with is saying that it's the (or "a") right way to do it. It's just not the right way to vent a tank.
Brian
Thanx for the explanation Brian. That helped.
And I appreciate your not getting personal. I do believe my way is "a" right way to do it and as long as it is " getting rid of enough that the remainder isn't a true hazard" as my friend from Public Services ALSO says, I'm good with it.
And please note, I'm not telling people what to do. I didn't even do that when I owned my welding and fabrication business. I asked them to do jobs for me and if it was something I wouldn't do (i.e. get this. True story. - weld on a turd sucker tank truck. How's that for irony!!?? :D) then I would not ask them to do it either. That is fair and fairness is ALWAYS my goal. So I am merely suggesting to others what I have done and seems to work just fine. I never - and correct me if I ever do this - feel that I am the "end all, be all" on a topic. People are everyday, all day, coming up with new and better ideas for everything. And one of the ways that happens is they take an existing idea and work with it. My way my not be absolutely "spot on" but seeing how it does work someone may some how take it and expand on it to make the best way ever known to mankind!!!! Woo Hoo!!! ;D But as long as it does the job, I will tell others of it. It may "fit their bill" but they should also, ANYTIME you do something with a certain amount of hazard to it (electrical, plumbing, etc.) TEST IT even IF is it done to code. Mistakes... or in this case "sh*t happens". ;D ;D ;D
Thanx again guys, and I will now let this rest. Too much time on a sh*tty subject. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D (I kill me! ;))
Chaz
Let's save the bus nuts some cash and instead elect people here (I put my vote in for Van cuz he needs to find the one to use for alternative fuel) to be the official black tank smeller ;D We could have a special rally and make bets and stuff!
Thanx again guys, and I will now let this rest. (Chaz)...............Now, hold on there Pilgrim. Not so fasty. Not before I get to thank you for a most excellent post. Had you not thanked Brian for his superb post I could have been the first to do so. As it is, I will be the second...thanks, Brian.
John
Just to clear up a few things here.
The vent in a house has nothing to do with sewer gas. As already posted, its sole purpose is to allow air to reenter the drain system when any liquid goes down it so it won't suck all the traps dry.
Now, back to buses. Methane gas inside a bus tank has no source of ignition unless you decide to light a match over your toilet so I don't consider that much of a problem. Never heard of one exploding or burning yet. (A disclaimer here, my 4104 has a bottom vent which works great and the toilet is on the opposite side from the tank which also works great.) In addition my waste tank feeds into the bottom which pretty much eliminates the interior sewer gas odor problem.
When a waste tank is emptied it is not pressurized, a vacumn is created in the tank which can empty traps if the tank vent is too small, which can cause odors. Slower dumping or refilling the traps solves that problem.
Thank you Gus! ;) ;)
Gus, vents on homes are for gases also, sewer gas has 7 different gases 3 of those will kill you methane gas is the least of your worry hydrogen sulfide in sewer gas will send you home in hurry.
Check and see how many die from sewer gas each year I won't chance it but we do what we do as Fast Fred says do it your way
good luck
METHANE IS A LETHAL AND POISONOUS SUBSTANCE. (just relax all you deep thinkers....a bullet is lethal but it isn't a poisonous "substance"). Methane, like METHANOL, destroys nerve cells and if you get a little too much it will blind you on the way to killing you. This is no joke! Sewer gas isn't a problem simply because it is explosive but because it can do irreparable harm to your body. When the canary in the mine quit singing that didn't just mean that there was going to be an explosion but that the air wouldn't support life at best and was poisoning you at worst and it wasn't even leaving a funny aftertaste. Whe else would a grown up dirty sweat soaked bad tempered ultra male take a frigging little yeller bird to work with him? It, propane, not the bird, though, facts be known a bird is also heavier than air, and it "sinks" when it exits the tank vent. Sinking, it will puddle in depressions just like propane.
I have personally had the good fortune and most interesting experience of laying in one of those "PUDDLES" , unbeknownst to me, in a 2 foot high crawl space under a house in the pitch dark night. WAYYYY under that house and FARRRR from the entrance hole that was cut into the foundation and I could only return to by crawling backwards like a worm in a shallow ditch. It was winter and I was wearing my Air Force Artic parka with the fur rimmed hood. When the "WHOOOOOUMP" happened and all I could see was this wall of orange flame rushing at me I pulled up my hood quicklikeabunny and held my breath. Lost a lot of hair and eyebrows and eye lashes and I coughed a mighty spell.....but I lived thru it and I have witnesses to that fact. I was laying in a ditch that had been dug, only because "CODE" required it I am sure, and I couldn't move right or left. That ditch was to allow any small amt of leaking gas to flow out from under the house and thru the foundation wall without pooling or puddling Can you hear some guy extolling on the virtues of "discovering" new ways to do "stuff" and not digging that ditch? I sure as hexx can and I don't even have to cup my ears to do so. Now here is my bottom line: I am at the head of the line of inventive folk that prides itself on being flex and creative and self-entertained. But, when I hear something really stupid like running a gas relief line to the rear of the coach to vent and expanding propane, well, it just sounds so "GUMMINT INTERFERENCE" that I gotta take notice and ponder. Vent my battery box at the top AND the bottom...what loon thought that one up to just waste my time....But then I remember the 6 volt bat that blew up in Vocational class and... not everybody has had my ever so limited experience. Those words "well that don't make any sense to me" are usually spoken with pride. That's scary. What scares me more is that some fool will say he is completely flummoxed by something and without even pausing to draw a fresh breath he launches into what we should do to correct a problem he doesn't understand and might not even exist, point of fact. RR was famous for lines like "I don't know why we need a school lunch program for our prescious chill'n". Then came the "follow me" moment of "so we are going to cut a serving of vegitables from the school lunch menu and save tax dollars". And people cheered the confused old man that didn't understand, well, a lot of stuff actually. It happens with frightening regularity.
If you need to deviate from the established rules then by all means do so and God bless. But, deviation for the sake of it makes you a "deviate" and you may well get more entertainment for your buck(pun intended)than you bargained for. Low air in the fronts. :o
John
You may be right, I'm just going from what my house plumbing manual says and it says nothing about venting gases - just about taking air in.
Individual traps block sewer gases in houses plus there is a master trap at the main sewer line connection. Home sewer gas explosions I've read about all involved the failure of this master trap. Our buses don't have this master trap so they are a different situation.
The normal bus/RV setup with the toilet directly over the tank has always bothered me, I like the setup of my 4104, which has a long pipe going into the bottom of the waste tank. Seems a lot safer to me. This setup blocks tank gas from the toilet and everything else except the small amount of gas in the pipes.
In spite of all the posts saying it won't work, this system, which has a very slightly sloped toilet drain all the way across the bus with three elbows, never once clogged in six years and 64,000 miles. It came that way with the bus.
Quote from: robertglines1 on March 31, 2011, 12:17:02 PM
We all agree! poo stinks ! so lets keep it from the inside of coach by all means. vent's good water traps /with water in them. A sealing valve on toilet. vent to inside bay I question some what but if you are sure the inside of coach has no way of sucking odor from bay area good: wire hole to bay plumbing passage to bay Basically anything air can pass thru.. I have thru roof and don't get smell going down road. But once in awhile someone holds the toilet valve open longer than necessary. Well everyone's poo stinks. We don't have the trap like the home units. we also don't use 3 gal of water per flush. Bob
Bob,
This is my point about having adequate vents. I can stand on my flush pedal and peer into my black tank as long as I want. I get no odor!!!! I do that to check my black water level. I think that when I flush with a full charge of water, the water rushes in the tank, slightly pressurizes the tank, the air can onl;y go out the vent as the toilet water is rushing in, so there is a flow of air started out the vent. That flow will continue for a while after all the water is discharged from the toilet into the tgank. There should be no "puff" of air back into the coach. UNLESS there is resistance in the vent line due to the vent pipe being to smmall OR there arte too many bends and turns in the vent pipe. The way my system works so well makes sense to me and the trouble others are having simply means that they have a design problem. It should be welcome news that they have a problem as problems have solutions whereas if there is no solution then the condition is simply REALITY and it must be lived with.
John, that may be the way it works when you are parked, but when traveling down the road with something like the toll window open to create a negative internal pressure, it's a good chance that the odor will be sucked into the coach. In that case, the vent may even help the tank gas flow inside more freely.
Lin,
Absolutely correct...what you said. My only experience with using my toilet is when I am stopped and in the bathroom. What you say makes purfect sence.
Say....that wasn't a slap at how small my Winnie is, was it? ??? ::) ;D The only place I can sit in the drivers seat and use the toilet simultaneously is when I am driving my motorcycle. And even there I don't have a "toll window".
What is the reasoning behind a two tank, black water/grey water tank system? Or to ask it different, what are the pros and cons of the two tanker vs single tank system?
The only possible advantage I see, is using the grey water to flush the hose after emtying the black water.
Taking some of your different ideas into mind, outside of water, leafs, bugs, etc., going down the vent, is there any reason to have the vent capped? Like many, ive found them busted off after a low branch tangled with it. Im considering running it flush with the roof, with perhaps just a slight angle cut to the pipe with the high side forward, like a whistle to induce outward air flow.
Im reading of these bottom vents and I just never would have thought of doing it that way. Ive been playing around campers my whole life, some old trailers from the 40's and 50's even are vented to the roof. But if it works for ya whose to argue. Mines going through the roof though, just seems the right way to go.
Now if you really want to see how to do it wrong... This Bus I bought, she was an "entertainer". You know, a band bus. Just cram the low rents in and run em town to town. I knew there was no crapper in the Bus from the pics, and when I made a walk through I so intended on tossing everything out the door I passed over things, like closely observing the bathroom floor. So imagine my surprise when the wife noted it used to have a toilet. I looked down at the floor, and sho nuff, there was a PVC crapper ring screwed to the floor, and you could clearly see the pipe, goin down....
Odd, I didnt recall any tank down below decks, theres a genny down there....I immediately exited Da Bus and opened the rear bay, and found said pipe. Yes, it came down from the main deck. But it passed right on through, past the back of the genny, and down through a hole in the bottom of the cargo bay. Right down onto the road, right in front of the right side duals. My wife had come around behind me and we observed what I had found togrther, and we both went EWWWWW at about the same time.
Which really makes you wonder how some of the people we share the world with think. Did they think it was funny to build it that a way? Do they get a kick out of blasting crapola off the right rear duals and watchin it spray onto the cars tailing them? Just makes you consider those "entertainers" opinions of the way they think the rest of us are supposed to live while they look down there nose at us. Or is that, drop a load on us. We may want to walk around thier Buses when we see them and take a looksee. I bet this wasnt the only one out there. Saves a lot of room for band gear when you leave out tanks.
Art, to answer your question on the two tank gray/black. My bus came with 1 tank black and gray going to the same tank. We used to get 1 maybe 2 nights without having to go dump the tank. I split the gray and ran it to a poly 55 gallon tank which I can run off on the ground. The parks here in Texas welcome you to it as most of the time the grass never gets enought water. I stayed 2 weeks at a park in Somerville while attended a training class. We made it sunday through Friday evening before we had to dump the black tank. The gray we just ran onto the ground. As much gray as we used the water spot on the ground was never larger than a square foot. It was very dry and the ground just sucked up the gray water. Of all the additions I put on the bus since we bought it I would say splitting the gray was one of the best modifications we have done.
Oh and for cleaning the tank I used a 6 foot piece of 3/4 pvc pipe with a cap glued on one end and a water hose fitting at the other. I drilled a series of holes aroound the capped end to create a 360 spray pattern. After I open the valve and all the ick comes out I stick that pvc all the way to the back of the tank, through the valve and let her rip until I get clear water coming out of the tank. When done I put more water in the black tank and pour in waterever cleaning agent I have on hand like pinesol or even the store bought black tank solutions, usually pine sol or fabuloso.
I never considered dumping grey water on the ground, but it does seem to be gaining favor. I suppose you could run a larger black tank and a smaller grey then, and if need be, if your somewhere you cant dump it, pump grey into the black.
If you are considering putting the grey on the ground (like people do with outside showers and shower heads) Look at the pic of the little contraption I did on page 3 of this thread ( http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=19584.30 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=19584.30) ) It really does work well if you can run it out from where you are parked. It's cheap to do and most anyone at one time or another could use it. A long garden hose may be necessary. And the beauty is, less tank, more room. Just make sure you use common sense when using it.
Chaz
My Courier 96 is set up the same way. We have used it a few times to dump grey water on the ground, when allowed. Very handy.
JC
Dumping gray water maybe gaining favor here on this board but it still wrong you get caught here in AZ doing that a gray tank is cheap all gray tanks are larger than the black tank on the correct setup and it stinks as bad as the black.
I would not have a a problem telling a owner dumping his gray water to take it to a dump station it's not about just one persons easy way out.
I am not a tree huger if some areas like here in the desert in a few places allow it on Federal land so be it,but you are not going to dump that stinking stuff next to where I am parked lol
good luck
Chaz I did mone the same way by putting a large T above a large valve where the shower used to go to the black tank. By shutting that valve it diverts the water to the gray tank. I can't ever see running the gray to the black tank through that T but it is nice to know it is there just in case.
Hello Luvrbus. I can understand gray water being couped up in a tank and then dumping the whole batch after it is allowed to cookl in the tank for a while. I just leave the valve open and to the valve is a water hose. I just lay the hose out on the ground and it runs out as we use the water. No stink or nothing. I know I can get pretty stinky in a days times but I didn't think I smelled that bad ;D
Luvr,
When you say it "stinks", I'm guessing you mean after it "brews" awhile in the tank?? ??? Otherwise, on several occasions, I have had the opportunity of using "outside showers" (a bunch of times actually, and sometimes with MANY people) and do not recall any foul odor. But, as you say, if you are dumping a tank, I imagine that could get a bit nasty after it's "brewed" awhile :P :P. And, above all, keeping a good oxygen supply to anything anarobic (like the nasty bacteria in a compost pile, poop ;), etc.) keeps the bad bacteria from growing and aids the good bacteria in keeping it clean and better smelling. So, if it gets absorbed quickly and doesn't stand around in some sort of nasty cess pool, it's my guess - only a guess now - that it would be somewhat benign.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to promote this, just trying to bring light to the whole situation in case someone else does this so they can do it, let's say, in a more "proper" method, being more informed. And again, if one does this, it's only smart to look at the whole picture and use common sense as with anything.
It's also just an opinion of mine that if there is a law restricting something, they make it based on what is easiest for them to enforce and it's easier to restrict everyone than to take the notion that some, maybe even most, people can use common sense in doing something BUT, then there are "those" :-\..............and those are the ones that screw it up for the masses. :'(
Again, not advocating or trying to be a Rebel here, just looking at the whole picture. There are TONS of scenario's that are that way.
Chaz
Just sayin,
Chaz
Or, running a pump, run it out behind the toad and put a spray nozzle on it. You could wash the road, so to speak. Grey water now, not the good stuff.
Grey water can be just as bad as black water if dumped on the ground, it can contain some nasty stuff. Here's an informative document with some info, http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/wmb/documents/wmb-7.pdf (http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/wmb/documents/wmb-7.pdf)
Although black water generally contains more disease-causing organisms, many of these
organisms can be found and persist in greywater and water contaminated with greywater. Some
familiar organisms include coliform bacteria; fecal coliforms, including E. coli; Salmonella
species; staphylococci species; viruses, including polioviruses and hepatitis virus A; and possibly
Giardia cysts.
Not trying to stir the pot here, just wanted to put this info out there for folks who may not know what could be in grey water. I work at alot of large outdoor events, when all the patrons leave some of these events dump the grey water on the gravel roads of these sites, then it drys and you have grey water dust making folks very sick.
Brandon, you are preaching to the choir here, I don't know anywhere now where that is allowable some state parks give a free night if you catch some one and report it.
I would never do that but I do tell the guy parked next to me I do not want to smell that stuff,500 dollar fine in AZ if they catch you dumping gray water on state property like rest areas or parks.
Many of times have I saw the BLM in Quartzsite ban and fine people for letting gray water on the ground not worth it to me
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on April 04, 2011, 10:04:53 AM
Brandon, you are preaching to the choir here
Its interesting, ive never dumped the stuff anywhere but in a tank. Just because others have been misinformed and suggest dumping it, doesnt make it right. I'll just continue to do as I always have and dump it in a tank.
I really cant ever imagine someone dumping it on the ground where they are parked in a campground, and especially near someone. Even if its sanitary, it still stinks.
So really then, one single tank for all waste water is sufficient, no?
Anybody ever seen a outside shower/shower head plumbed into the wet bay? How about a shower head next to the front door? Beech campers like this setup and require that "everybody" rinse of before coming inside if you have been sunning or swimming....KIDS, PAY ATTENTION. Ever seen that?
Just say'n. You could be in a heap o trouble in AZ camped by the Colorado River. But, hey! Whatever! When in Rome. Like so many laws I am sure they are directed at the minority that will screw up a steel ball in a rubber room. If anyone dumped their gray water tank anywhere near me after that tank had set for a week or so that person would be in "trouble". The more specific a law is the more complex and detailed that law must be written. DUMP NO WASTE WATER seems to work but, in its simplicity, it misses the mark in its true intent of infringing the least. Allowing me and mine to to drain my Irish Spring onto the dirt and stop idiots from dumping would probably end up as a entire telephone book worth of print. This is also at the root of why attorneys are well suited to politics.....it's in the fine print, stupid, and a plumber isn't any good at that kind of subtleties and subterfuge. ::)
Bearing firearms is a Constitutional issue and look at the trouble we have keeping that door open. So who is going to fight to protect the rights of a camper to use the sense God gave him and not ruin his fellow campers day? Let's write a law.... get it? The people that are the most avid proponents of such legislation are usually the ones most vehemently opposed to collecting taxes to support the parks and public recreation facilities where dumping might occur. Why does it make sense to mutter "there outta be a law" and then almost without letting that next swig of beer hit your stomach, be in full lament about "Gummint interference"? Explain that to me, please. What happened to being that Rugged Individualist, Pioneer and "inventive free thinking soul"? I know what the rules are but I want to do it my way and get praise for doing so....that guy.
Still confused,
John
John it is not just the shower water gray water can be from dishes, washing machine etc I see nothing wrong with Chaz and his shower water but how many adults have you seen standing outside in the nude taking a shower with those outside shower in some places are not allowed also Galveston Beach come to mind the park ranger told my daughter not to use hers on the beach she could use water to rinse the kids but no soap.
I haven't saw any new RV's with that outside shower in a few years now have you
good luck
Letting gray water run on the ground is not the same as dumping a tank of it. I do not know what is meant by saying the practice has been gaining favor lately; it has always been done. There are some places where it is not permitted and there are others where it is. We use the bus a a guest house at home. I generally use the gray water bypass for that. It's just connected to a hose and goes into a ditch about 30 feet away. Water does not accumulate, and I would suspect that the desert sun can handle whatever nastys are deposited. Similarly, in the right situation, running a hose into some nearby bushes could work. But we are talking about just letting the water run. Dumping 50-100 gallons of festering waste at a shot is a different story.
Lin, that is funny what is the difference dumping a little at one time or the tank full same mixture in both were it drains out a 5/8 hose or a 2 inch valve
good luck
Clifford, "fresh" dish water is not likely to be particularly offensive, but if it sits in a closed tank for a while it can get quite putrid. Aside from the tank dump being noxious, the large volume also means it will flow over a large area instead of just seeping into the ground as it could with a trickle. In various places we have lived, we used the washing machine water to irrigate some oleander and a stand of oaks. There never was even a hint of a problem. Of course, in each of those cases too the water was plumbed away from the house.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 04, 2011, 12:12:41 PM
John it is not just the shower water gray water can be from dishes, washing machine etc I see nothing wrong with Chaz and his shower water but how many adults have you seen standing outside in the nude taking a shower with those outside shower in some places are not allowed also Galveston Beach come to mind the park ranger told my daughter not to use hers on the beach she could use water to rinse the kids but no soap.
I haven't saw any new RV's with that outside shower in a few years now have you
good luck
Clifford,
I am in complete agreement with you on this. If you see any contradictions that must be due to my not being clear.
I remember seeing them...showers at the door.....when, how long ago or where is lost to me. I can assure you that if I had a Pre or the likes it would have that capability at the wet bay at least and in close proximity to the entrance as well if possible. I don't always camp where there is a Ranger to guide my every move though I am strongly in favor of their presence and rule enforcement for the masses. And I am massive.
If there is no reg against it I will rinse my thong clad feet at the entrance with a shower. I may also do what I have done for years and just put a shallow pan outside for everyone to rinse their clogs/thongs/feet.. There is almost no chance whatsoever that I will treat the foot rinse waste water in that pan as hazardous waste or otherwise get all that anal about it. ;D
Still luv ya ta pieces, Cliffy.
John
JohnEd, we are talking about people and gray water my friend give them a 5/8 hose next week it will a 3 inch and a tank full lol and I don't want to know if your foot water is H/W or not you be the judge on that one I'll pass thanks.
FWIW my boat has gray water holding tanks and I am not allowed to dump gray water in the water till I get away from the bays at least in Ca where the boat is
good luck
From Ace:
Well John, simply put, my vent going down works,
Good that you pointed out that you idea is "simply" put. You might want to consult Webster before you start modeling "brands". To your point, though, I saw nothing overly sophisticated in anything you said.
has worked
I have conceded that point on your word alone. I have never doubted your sincerity nor have I ever advocated that others do so.
and has given us no smell under any condition.
I know you are wrong about that but I think you are "simply" misstating your point that YOU have never had a problem nor have YOU, or others, ever been offended by tank gas being dumped under your bus.
With that said, do you think if it didn't I would continue to come on here and publicly promote it?
No, I don't Ace. I think you are just being "simple" and plainly stating your experience. But you appear to be "promoting that design" and you have precious, dare I say NONE, support for the theory that would support your design and that you don't proffer. Your promotion seems to me to infer that you are holding the rest of us up to ridicule for accepting a design that is regulation and well established and "simply put"....simple.
I guess it's just the same as when I used a round aluminum fuel tank to build my black tank. Ya'all said that couldn't be done too,
Ace, Amigo, you started your reply with "John"(me, singular). One of the problems with colloquialisms such as "y'all" is that they are both plural and singular and to tell the difference you have to have the speaker in sight. A fixed gaze or finger point means singular while a sweeping gesture or sweeping glance means plural. Buddy, I never made any comment about your "round aluminum waste water tanks" one way or the other. I know that Al. is more highly reactive to chems than steel, all depending, and make s an inferior waste tank for that reason alone. Tank thickness and alloy would have a huge bearing. All of the round fuel tanks I have seen have been, well, "round" and round doesn't utilize the bay space very efficiently unless your bays are, well, round. I sure as heck aren't saying your bays aren't round now Ace. They are yours, of course, and to a greater or lesser degree they reflect you penchant as a trail blazer....I'm just say'n. It wasn't me that got your skivvies all bunched by opining on that sensitive subject. Propane, at 200psi needs to be round or really really thick walled stuff. I think.
or the fact that I hung it from the main floor frame structure, which couldn't be done, or have it mounted sideways rather than front to back, which couldn't be done, all for obvious and deadly reasons but I did and everything works just fine.
Ace, just because something hasn't happened yet is not proof that it won't or that your actions haven't exacerbated a potential hazard. The man that fell from the 50th floor of a skyscraper was heard to say, as he fell past the 25th floor, "oh well, so far so good". That story looses it's humorous element if you quote him as advocating jumping as "a good way to get to the ground floor". I "simply" find almost all of what you post interesting. You are innovative at the least and possibly a trifle paranoid but it is all good. You also seem to have assigned statements and postures to me that I certainly do not have and never have voiced sooo you might want to work on some of that as well. At any rate, I still luv ya, Brah.
Think outside the box and not always what the book says.
Yea, I'm proud because it was cheap and it works....simply put!
Who could argue with that? On the other hand it is a handicap to be limited to only those practices that "are" outside the box for that reason alone. Sumply putt.
Quote from: Ace on March 31, 2011, 06:26:12 AM
Just to prove that a vent does NOT have to go thru the roof, check out a "studor" valve. Its a small 2 inch valve that vents the line. We removed our they the roof black pipe vent in our house and installed one of these in our kitchen. It works, per a plumber wuth many years experience and its the ONLY vent on the house. No smells, no slow drainage, nada! If you can do this in a house that doesn't move, who says you can't do it in a bus? Just saying, unless of course the methane gas has are my brain up over the years.
This is just one example.
Why is it almost every topic results in a debate? Tried and proven but were still wrong. It's not the internet bully running people off, it's this exact thing. People beat a non issue to death and they are only posting what they think rather than what they have actually done. Read all your books, laws, and codes but remember, they are only there because they are. You would have to have a hell of a lot of methane gas built up to cause an explosion and who keeps their tanks full all of the time? I sure dont!
Ace,
This is now and started out as a forum. It is even called a "forum"....simply put and without putting too fine an edge on it. In the heading there is even a section titled "Forum Rules"...not "riles". I'll offer that as proof of the intent... Now Webster has to get involved here as he is/was the expert. FORUM: A public meeting place for open discussion. A public meeting involving public discussion. A program involving discussion of a problem usually by experts. A forum involves debate, Ace. It is that way everywhere. Your not liking it isn't likely to change much. And complaining that others have opinions other than your is a breach and not grounds for...
One of the many definitions of INSANITY is "to repeat the same action while expecting different results". Somebody says TANK....somebody will say VENT and awaaaay we go. But there are always people here that never heard the debate, Ace. Like you 50 years ago ;D And there are the Lurkers.Those Studor valves admitt air to the sewer line to prevent the exiting/flushed water from sucking the TRAP dry. Most dry traps will admit sewar gas to the living quarters, though yours may be an exception. That sewer gas is poisonous and highly offensive. Yours may be the exception. They are used on runs....not as tank vents. A tank vent MUST work both ways. Sorta ambidextrous or bi-sezual....sorta. The vent exhales the tank when we input sewage and it inhales when we purge the tank. It has two jobs to do. If your vert vent is near the trap, as it is supposed to be, then you will never have any need for a Studor valve or anything else that is mechanical or electrical. That, "simply put", simple pipe does it all.....forever and never needs oiling. But, thanks for the tip.Still luv ya,
John
Quote from: Chaz on March 31, 2011, 07:29:47 AM
t.
So, please, keep the debates going. I love them and learn a TON!!! But, try to keep the civility to a max and condescension to a minimum.
How about "humor"? Aren't we required to be able to take a joke? I know I don't take myself all that seriously, Sarcasm is certainly humor, and, actually, Webster calls it the wit of the Master. Now I have taken note that, from time to time, the guy that might be termed "the unarmed oponent" gets really all huffy. What can yoiu expect but indignation from someone that is in over their head(s).
Just my opinion,
Your opinion carries weight with me and i thank you for sharing it.
Chaz
edited
Quote from: luvrbus on March 31, 2011, 08:22:20 AM
When you do dump do a good cleaning I use a washer system inside the tank to wash good after every dump not that hard to make one with a sprinkler head and pvc pipe dry camping for long periods I would vent to the top JMW
good luck
FINALLY!!!!!After all these years of looking like I am sucking up....here we go. Clifford and I have diametrically opposed opinions on a bus issue. I have never and will never use one of those wands that you connect to a garden hose to "squirt out the inside surface" of my black water tank. The idea is ludicrous to me. Nonsense! Ballder-dash and horse poo. My tanks are never put up dry and I dump only when they are full or nearly so. I keep them wet. After sitting for a year I noticed that the bottom of my Black tank was bone dry and the min of brown sludge had dried and crinkled like the mud flats of Death Valley. A few flushes to "wet things down" and not a single issue. Those tanks have been working that way since 1973 without a problem. Hose out the inside?????? Why? Anyone that eats in there deserves what they get.
I used that "Blue Toilet" perfume stuff once. I didn't have a problem and I thought I might be doing some one or something a favor somehow. The horrible stench of the efflent that came out at dump time was a real gager. I got to reading that label to see better what I had done and the principle ingredient was FORMALDIHYDE. Anybody that tells you that F is environmentally friendly or Green in the remote is pulling your leg. I am not saying that the industry is not making a serious TON O MONEY from this public ruse cause they certainly are. What I am saying is that there are a gazillion of happy campers out there that don't use that stuff and never have. Keep your mind AND your fingers outta the sewer.....don't use that crap cause the makers are laughing at you with the same gusto as the cigarette makers are. Go without it...cold turkey....and see if your senses are assaulted by sewer odors. If they are then fix the problem or rerun your vents up thru the roof.
Clifford,
This proves our relationship of trust and respect on my part. Don't go Ace on me now....please.
Quote from: luvrbus on March 31, 2011, 09:18:36 AM
With that vent setup Chaz the liquids in the tank have to force the sewer gas out and if don't buy that have the local gas co in your area sniff it with their gadget it will show nothing
good luck
LIVE AND LOIN..... didn't know such a device existed. Freon does PPM though but If I can get the gas company or water guys to do it I'll be a happy camper.
thanks,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on March 30, 2011, 09:29:32 PM
I had a horrific odor,
If you are just completely flummoxed by this problem I have a suggestion: Go to a AC specialist and have him plug your roof vent, add freon to your waste tank through a jerry rigged coupler , and run his sniffer around till he locates the "freon leak". And continue till he is sure there isn't a second leak.
You might simply pressurize the system sitting there and do the nose sniffer thing, also. We are talking a half pound of pressure don't forget. Don't want your potty bounce'n off the bathroom ceiling. The crack in my pipe was on the side to the wall and it too me months to find it and the fix cost less than a dollar.
Fun talk'n with ya,
John
Now it turns out that there is a sewer sniffer that dores this and you can get the utilities to run the tests for free. I have mixed emotions about learning that. Especially after getting it "wrong" so to speak and nobody shared the "good info" with me and the board. Why did it take you guys so long to speak up?( he said in his paranoia) Clifford????
thanks,
John
John your comments are not even worth commenting on but I did find it very amusing to start my day off with a laugh to say the least! ;D ;D
John,
You've been a busy boy.
Chaz
John, you need another pot of coffee! ;D ;D ;D
The use of those formaldehyde based tank additives are illegal in California. They're fussy about what gets back into the water table.
Ace,
Then my mission was, in fact, a success. ??? ;D
John, you need a life.
JC
Talkin about shootin the $%^&! That is better than a tennis match. ;D
Quote from: lostagain on April 07, 2011, 11:11:37 AM
John, you need a life.
JC
What? No happy face? ??? ;D ;D ;D
John
All I could think of is what combination of libations could cause someone to devote an evening to that amount of scribing! I thought a cocktail of maybe some Red Bull, a little too much Jalapeno juice, maybe a dearth of Ex-lax chocolate milkshake , and a little absinthe...
:o ;D ;D ;D
You're right John... where's the :)??
Sarcasim is fun but it's hard to tell the intent in the written word. As opposed to "Master", it can also very easily be the "Wit of the Entitled A$$----". It depends on what they mean by "Master". ;D Masters can tend to be a bit on the arrogent side. (Case in point........ well, I better not go there. Could open a whole 'nother can of squirmies" ;D ;D ;D ;D)
You also made basically the same point here along the same lines:
Quote"One of the problems with colloquialisms such as "y'all" is that they are both plural and singular and to tell the difference you have to have the speaker in sight. A fixed gaze or finger point means singular while a sweeping gesture or sweeping glance means plural."
It's just hard to put true meaning into the written word unless you are a great literary figure............ much like yourself!! ::) :D :D
Wow, I'm amazed at the legs this thread has grown!! :o :o But fun!! ;D
Chaz
Brian,
Maybe you have put your finger on it.....I am not capable of drinking. It makes me deathly sick. I am one of the type two diabetics that doesn't even need the "warning". Perhaps a glass of Scotch would make a diff...I'll never know. Likewise milkshakes are a no-no, Exlax laced or otherwise, (can we say that in mixed company?) but thanks for the possible explaination.
Everyone finds their own amusement in their own way and like any liquid....we find our own level.... Loved the happy faces at the end. (JC, Take note)
Now lets get this back "on topic" and back to Black tanks and VENTS. ::) ;D
Thanks,
John
So, is everyone through venting about black tanks?
Any thoughts on plumbing the vent it into the air box,or will my engine get the runs? :P ;D Figure if it smelled bad I could stuff some air fresheners in there too :o ;D
Black tank 101 ;D
To be honest, when I read the lengthy post, i kind of thought Gary (money pit) was posting under another login. Just saying! ;D ;D
Quote from: Len Silva on April 07, 2011, 02:38:40 PM
So, is everyone through venting about black tanks?
Now that is sarcastic wit. ;)
Thank you Len.
Apparently not, however. Ace still wants to talk about me and someone named "Money Pit". Go figure! Once "off topic"... forever OFF topic. Gotta luv'em, tho.
Quote from: van on April 07, 2011, 03:55:52 PM
Any thoughts on plumbing the vent it into the air box,or will my engine get the runs? :P ;D Figure if it smelled bad I could stuff some air fresheners in there too :o ;D
Black tank 101 ;D
Se we go from plain diesel exhaust smell with the regular guys, to peanuts and french fry essence in the WVO Bus, to parfum de toilet?
I can see it now, Compost Bus drive. Just fill up the bays with manuer tanks and run the by-product (gas) into the engine. Talk about green energy.
Or just frequent mexican restaurants!! My favorite anyway.
Butt ya know, if it would get me more mpg, you can bet your "turd from body seperation unit" that I would do it!! ;D
Chaz