I was at a truck stop the other day and seen they were selling exhuast fluid. I have never seen it before. What is it used for?
At first I thought it might be the same thing as when I was in Navy and we used to send the "newest" recruit to get some red oil for the port running light...... but apparently not:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/03/10/i-pickuptrucks-com-i-looks-at-diesel-exhaust-fluid/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/03/10/i-pickuptrucks-com-i-looks-at-diesel-exhaust-fluid/)
Tim,
Thanks. Very interesting.
John
It's for new fangle high dollar coaches w/2010 and newer engines!
I doubt any of us here will be worrying about it for a while! ;)
;D BK ;D
It is urea that is used to clean up the exhaust on 2010 and newer diesel engines. There is a seperate tank for diesel exhaust fluid on new vehicles. Even new diesel pickups use DEF except the Cummin 6.7 in the Dodge Ram.
Quote from: belfert on February 26, 2011, 01:35:32 PM
It is urea that is used to clean up the exhaust on 2010 and newer diesel engines. There is a seperate tank for diesel exhaust fluid on new vehicles. Even new diesel pickups use DEF except the Cummin 6.7 in the Dodge Ram.
Yeah what Brian said! When Booger & I went to Setra's training course in Salt Lake they spent a 1/2 a day on it w/us but I kinda ticked off the instructor when there was no way I was plumbing my holding tank into the exhaust just to please the Guvenmit!
;D BK ;D
And I thought it was for the muffler bearings ??? in an ol Henway.
Except for International, all engine manufacturers-including MAN in Europe that supplies International with their Maxxforce 11 and 13 liter engine-are use DEF. It is a mixture of 32% ammonia and distilled water. The exhaust is so clean that many trucks that I'm spec'ing out, I am installing horizontal exhausts. It saves about 150lbs and about $400.00 over the old style up exhaust stack. Plus the fuel mileage these new trucks are getting-we're seeing some 80,000lb trucks getting over 8mpg. Now that's efficient! Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on February 26, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
... It is a mixture of 32% ammonia and distilled water. ...
Actually, Brian had it right, it is urea, 32.5% by the MSDS.
Urea is highly soluble in water but easily dissociates to ammonia, which is released as a gas and is the principle component of urea's distinctive odor. It is this ammonia, released by the hydrolysis of the urea, that becomes a reagent in the selective catalytic reduction reaction that occurs downstream in the catalytic converter. The ammonia then reacts with oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust to produce harmless water and gaseous nitrogen.
Urea is neither acidic nor basic and therefore will not corrode the metal components of the exhaust system and is relatively safe to handle and store. By contrast, ammonia is highly caustic and would eat through the exhaust system in short order. It is a strong base and harmful to human skin, eyes, and membranes.
DEF only reduces nitrogen oxide emissions, which are colorless and generally odorless emissions. Soot is reduced separately in a particulate filter. Almost none of the clean exhaust technology would work at all, however, if it were not for the very tightly controlled combustion process which is electronically regulated and incorporates feedback from exhaust sensors. Ensuring that only the fuel which can be completely combusted on any given stroke is injected into the cylinder reduces the workload on the filters, and also improves fuel mileage.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
They are in farm tractors, combines and industrial engines also. I'm hearing the fluid isn't real cheap but I have no idea how long it lasts or such. So if you run out of the urea fluid does that stop the engine?
Quote from: Chopper Scott on February 27, 2011, 06:01:02 AM
They are in farm tractors, combines and industrial engines also. I'm hearing the fluid isn't real cheap but I have no idea how long it lasts or such. So if you run out of the urea fluid does that stop the engine?
Tier-2 (and above) engines have OBD processors that monitor, among many other things, the DEF dispensing directly at the injection point. Running out of DEF, or a clogged DEF filter, will trigger a "limp-home" mode in the OBD and engine performance will be dramatically reduced until the problem is corrected and the computer reset, to prevent damage to the converter.
You might find this white paper informative if you have a Tier-2 engine:
http://www.spatcodef.com/assets/Uploads/AttachedFiles/Technical/Whitepaper-SuccessfulUreaDieselExhaustFluidHandlingStorageandDispensing.pdf (http://www.spatcodef.com/assets/Uploads/AttachedFiles/Technical/Whitepaper-SuccessfulUreaDieselExhaustFluidHandlingStorageandDispensing.pdf)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I was at a Kwip Trip store yesterday and I happened to notice they had 2.5 gallon bottles of DEF for $9.99. I'm guessing that would not be your first choice of places to buy the stuff if you care about the cost.
I thought I read that some of the large truck stops will be installing DEF pumps alongside the diesel pumps when DEF becomes more popular.
Flying J in Phoenix has the piss pumps as the truckers call it I had a time with what they talking about till I asked a driver , truckers you got to love em
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 27, 2011, 06:50:58 AM
Flying J in Phoenix has the piss pumps as the truckers call it I had a time with what they talking about till I asked a driver , trucker you got to love em
good luck
;) Hey Clifford I resemble that remark! (or at least I used too!)
;D BK ;D
It's called Adblue here:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsverige.air1.info%2Fen%2FImages%2Ffilling-station_330x190_.jpg&hash=17b9b211597c1b33b797b175880590e129a4112c)
It's not just for trucks and buses either - some cars (eg Mercedes Bluetec diesels) also need it.
Jeremy
BK ot here but happy birthday buddy enjoy your day
good luck
Many of the larger fleets are getting floor mounted 375gal tanks with built in pumps to refill DEF. When done this way the current cost in bulk is $1.99/gal. Considering that one gallon of DEF will get about 375 miles with a Detroit and about 240 miles with the Cummins ISX (combination of less fuel mileage and a 3% burn instead of a 2% burn like the DD engines), at basically $2/gal that works out to be .53 cents a mile for Detroit and .83 cents a mile for Cummins. And with the better fuel mileage with switching from electronic unit injectors to electronic common rail injection (going from 23,000psi to 32,000psi tip pressure), and being able to go from 25% exhaust gas recirculation to 15% (International went from 25% to 40% since they do not use Urea [for the time being]), the trucks and buses are now getting better fuel mileage then ever! Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: luvrbus on February 27, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
BK ot here but happy birthday buddy enjoy your day
good luck
Thanks Clifford, had a great day! (all drivers waited until it was over to let me know about all the goofy & bad things that happened! LOL)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: TomC on February 27, 2011, 07:54:53 AM
Many of the larger fleets are getting floor mounted 375gal tanks with built in pumps to refill DEF. When done this way the current cost in bulk is $1.99/gal. Considering that one gallon of DEF will get about 375 miles with a Detroit and about 240 miles with the Cummins ISX (combination of less fuel mileage and a 3% burn instead of a 2% burn like the DD engines), at basically $2/gal that works out to be .53 cents a mile for Detroit and .83 cents a mile for Cummins. And with the better fuel mileage with switching from electronic unit injectors to electronic common rail injection (going from 23,000psi to 32,000psi tip pressure), and being able to go from 25% exhaust gas recirculation to 15% (International went from 25% to 40% since they do not use Urea [for the time being]), the trucks and buses are now getting better fuel mileage then ever! Good Luck, TomC
Better FUEL mileage than ever............... But now there is extra expense to calculte into that and it just evens it out or makes it worse! FWIW
;D BK ;D
BK- I have done numerous total per mile with fuel/DEF costs and the total mile per gallon the trucks are getting WITH the cost of DEF is the lowest in history-period! And-Detroits DD engines are wiping up. Cummins ISX is about .25 miles per gallon more, Volvo as much as .5 miles per gallon more. And while International likes you to think their engines are running efficiently without the use of DEF, with the oil change being twice as many times, regeneration being 4 times as much, their overall running cost is about $23,000 more over a 600k mi time (usual time to pay off a truck).
If I were buying a truck now, I'd spec out a DD15 in the 475hp and 1650lb/ft range and use the new Eaton/Fuller 13 spd Ultra Shift Plus with electronically controlled clutch. We've found that the driver's that keep their trucks cruising in the 60mph range are getting over 8mpg! Considering this is with an 80,000lb truck, imagine what your buses would do! Good Luck, TomC
;)
Tom,
In California 60 MPH is a reasonable speed since trucks are targets over 55.
But everywhere else drivers are gonna complain seriously about going so slow!
And yes I'd love to have a sweet set up like that for my buses. But unless they bring the speedlimit back down, I don't see it happening!
(of course ther would always be one bus in the fleet that would still go faster! As Sammy Hagar say's "I can't drive 55!")
;D BK ;D