Finally after 8 days, I was able to pick up the Eagle from W.W. Williams. To recap why it was there, on the drive home from Texas last week, it dropped an injector 30 miles south of Montgomery, AL. At the same time, the exhaust pipe separated at the flange, actually breaking the casting on the flange. The muffler also has a small hole, but I don't know if that was there before or not.
Anyway, they replaced the bad injector and custom made a new pipe for the exhaust leaving the muffler as is.
I don't know if it's my imagination or what, but the engine just doesn't seem as smooth anymore. Granted, I have only ever driven the bus for 2 days and 750 miles after picking it up Texas.
When you are standing in front of the engine and listening to the exhaust, the right bank, where the injector went out, seems to be ever so slightly missing. Could this just be from the hole in the muffler? Or could I have a valve problem now?... Or could it just clear up with some driving?
I have only driven it back from the shop about 10 miles, and maybe I'm just paying much more attention than I should, but I think something might be off. It's an 8v71.
Thoughts?
I had a exhaust valve to tight after adjusting and it created a miss. One of those senior moments.
Mine had an exhaust leak and it definately sounded like a miss. I even had an ole friend that knows the ole 2 strokers well shake his head thinking it had a miss. I redid the exhaust and it went away!!!
If Williams did a compression check on that cylinder it won't be a valve after 10 days and a few thousand bucks you hear strange sounds if you have a valve problem let someone follow you it will blow white smoke on that side
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 22, 2011, 06:27:50 PM
If Williams did a compression check on that cylinder it won't be a valve after 10 days and a few thousand bucks you hear strange sounds if you have a valve problem let someone follow you it will blow white smoke on that side
good luck
LOL Hope you're right. It's actually been 12 days.
One way or another, you need a muffler, so get one and see what happens?
"dropped an injector" ????
What, exactly, happened to the injector?
Slang terms raise a flag right away for me, especially when a bunch of cash has changed hands.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on February 22, 2011, 07:52:08 PM
One way or another, you need a muffler, so get one and see what happens?
"dropped an injector" ????
What, exactly, happened to the injector?
Slang terms raise a flag right away for me, especially when a bunch of cash has changed hands.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
An injector blew out and was dumping fuel into that cylinder. Clifford called it and he was right. They showed me the old injector and the guts of it were chewed up.
Quote from: buswarrior on February 22, 2011, 07:52:08 PM
One way or another, you need a muffler, so get one and see what happens?
"dropped an injector" ????
What, exactly, happened to the injector?
Slang terms raise a flag right away for me, especially when a bunch of cash has changed hands.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The complication is that I am 400 miles from home and have been here for a week while they have been working on the bus. If they did something wrong, now is the time to take it back.
Marc,
WW Williams is a stand up company that has locations all over the Eastern/Southern US and if they did wrong it will be warrantied @ ANY OF THEIR LOCATIONS!
As a matter of fact from my personal experiences the second location will go way above and beyond the norm to ensure that all is well and you are happy when you leave!
I have had many things done by them on the road and they have ALWAYS treated us right! (even if we were light in the wallet when we left! They still gave us our $ worth in excellent service! I long longer worry about how much it is until they are done, because # 1 it has to be fixed & # 2 I ain't there to do it myself!)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on February 22, 2011, 10:22:07 PM
Marc,
WW Williams is a stand up company that has locations all over the Eastern/Southern US and if they did wrong it will be warrantied @ ANY OF THEIR LOCATIONS!
As a matter of fact from my personal experiences the second location will go way above and beyond the norm to ensure that all is well and you are happy when you leave!
I have had many things done by them on the road and they have ALWAYS treated us right! (even if we were light in the wallet when we left! They still gave us our $ worth in excellent service! I long longer worry about how much it is until they are done, because # 1 it has to be fixed & # 2 I ain't there to do it myself!)
;D BK ;D
They were very courteous and professional. I am going to try some muffler tape to see if that changes the way it sounds. If not, I'll give them a call back. The only thing that concerns me is that they looked at the 2 stroke 8-71 as if it was something completely foreign. After the kid worked on it, he said he had never even seen one before.
I would be concerned that the kid that worked on it didn't set it up just right. Wouldn't the new injector need to be gauged or height set or something like that? If he never touched a 2 stroke before i would be hesitant to believe he actually got it tuned right after replacing the injector. then again, I know nothing about setting them up either...pure speculation.
We all know these motors need to be worked real hard for many miles to clear them out. If your muffler is bad, well, maybe it was missing before the injector fried, and now it sounds funny running normal? 10 miles isnt very far though. Perhaps re-route your trip slightly and aim the Bus at the next Williams center on your way home.
But were not there, you are. Were not hearing the noise, feeling the engine miss, you are. If you honestly think it isnt running right bring it back. After several hundred miles of driving it you probably have a good feeling for how it should feel and sound.
My plan this morning is to wrap the muffler with exhaust tape and drive the bus for 30 minutes or so, then reassess the situation. Will keep you posted.
Marc, since this was an in-experienced 2-stroke mechanic, I would go back and talk to the supervisor.
I don't think you can properly service an injector and not run the rack. The manual tells how to do it, but the really experienced folks will tell you that the process is very sensitive to operator technique. I was lucky to have an old time mechanic who was rebuilding a really hopped up push truck at Bonneville show me the process. I was very impressed at what was involved. Not like simply adjusting the valves. I later did it on my 6V92 and it was out of the bus and it was still pretty intensive.
As a side note, you can see the push truck and the unbelievable race truck ('47 International Semi with 16V92 - still holds the record at over 270 MPH ten years later) here:
http://rvsafetysystems.com/The%20Phoenix%20LSR%20Truck.htm (http://rvsafetysystems.com/The%20Phoenix%20LSR%20Truck.htm)
As I mentioned earlier, to run the rack they have to remove both valve covers. The service manager should know what was done and can talk to the mechanic. I would not leave there until I knew the rack had been run correctly.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 23, 2011, 06:40:26 AM
Marc, since this was an in-experienced 2-stroke mechanic, I would go back and talk to the supervisor.
I don't think you can properly service an injector and not run the rack. The manual tells how to do it, but the really experienced folks will tell you that the process is very sensitive to operator technique. I was lucky to have an old time mechanic who was rebuilding a really hopped up push truck at Bonneville show me the process. I was very impressed at what was involved. Not like simply adjusting the valves. I later did it on my 6V92 and it was out of the bus and it was still pretty intensive.
As a side note, you can see the push truck and the unbelievable race truck ('47 International Semi with 16V92 - still holds the record at over 270 MPH ten years later) here:
http://rvsafetysystems.com/The%20Phoenix%20LSR%20Truck.htm (http://rvsafetysystems.com/The%20Phoenix%20LSR%20Truck.htm)
As I mentioned earlier, to run the rack they have to remove both valve covers. The service manager should know what was done and can talk to the mechanic. I would not leave there until I knew the rack had been run correctly.
Jim
Thanks Jim,
They did say they ran the rack. It also reflects as much on the receipt. There is a good chance that Clifford is right and that I am being paranoid. I have had plenty of cars with bad exhaust that make them sound like they are missing. If it sounds the same after the muffler tape, I will contact W.W.Williams again.
Thanks,
Marc
The big mystery to me is how it is that the injector went bad at the exact same time that the exhaust came apart...??? ??? ??? ???
Can somebody explain how these things might be connected? A very strange coincidence to me. When we picked the bus up, it was purring like a kitten. Smooth and quiet (for a diesel).
Williams is not going to let a young guy do the injector setting and rack without some body checking his work you can bank on that ,what I like about Williams showing younger guys that there is more to it than walking around working on a engine without a Pro/Link in your hand lol FWIW they have a young female in Vegas that does most of the 2 stroke one of the sharpest around X military trained about 25 years old give the young people a break
Clifford, I suspect you are correct about having someone look over the mechanics shoulder. Also good that these shops are training young folks how to work on these engines. Had not thought of military experience. Lots of 2-stroke equipment there.
Marc, a bad injector would really saturate the exhaust system. My guess is the the muffler had some raw diesel in it and somehow that fuel combusted. Happens all the time with old gas engines when the carb float gets out of whack. It would be harder to ignite the diesel, but I would guess that it could happen and that would be a good explanation.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 23, 2011, 07:38:20 AM
Clifford, I suspect you are correct about having someone look over the mechanics shoulder. Also good that these shops are training young folks how to work on these engines. Had not thought of military experience. Lots of 2-stroke equipment there.
Marc, a bad injector would really saturate the exhaust system. My guess is the the muffler had some raw diesel in it and somehow that fuel combusted. Happens all the time with old gas engines when the carb float gets out of whack. It would be harder to ignite the diesel, but I would guess that it could happen and that would be a good explanation.
Jim
Jim,
That makes perfect sense. My wife was behind me in the car and she said there were sparks flying out of the exhaust. That's probably what it was.
I had some injectors replaced once on a 4-71 at a DD dealer, and a tune up with running the rack, before I learned how to do it myself. It was a young mechanic doing it, but he had an old wrench looking over his shoulder and teaching him during the procedure. He was happy to learn and it was done right.
JC
Okay,
I just wasted an entire day and $20 on goop plugging a hole in the muffler so I could verify what I thought I heard... There is DEFINITELY still a dead miss. I am starting to get upset. I have now been in Montgomery for 9 days and after all that time, W.W. Williams has given me the bus back without fixing the core problem.
When you throttle it by hand at the engine, no smoke, but when you go inside and push the throttle, it is still blowing out white smoke out of the right pipe. It seems to me that they did not follow correct procedures in this case, despite their good reputation. From what I understand, this kind of problem should have been exposed during a compression check. I am beginning to believe they skipped it.
I am now day 14 of this trip and have been able to do this because I am self employed. But I am starting to lose money which really puts me in a BAD mood. I am only so flexible. I need to get back home but don't want to drive this bus like this. I am a slow burn, but my fuse is now lit.
What do you guys suggest? I can't afford to wait another week for them to get back into it but don't want to drive it like this.
Marc
I guess all you can do is go back to Williams and ask them to look into it.
JC
I am going to call them in the morning. This episode is not only costing me in repairs but lost income. I am getting HOT.
Many Detroit dealers will put trucks ahead of converted buses because trucks make money for the owner of the trucks. They also get a lot of repeat business from truck owners.
You need to make it clear that they need to fix your bus right away as they did it wrong and it is costing you money no different than any other truck being off the road.
If you are coming to NC See either David at Davids Coach on hy 18 between Shelby and Morganton or Gene Russel
at Russells's Diesel in Mill Springs NC witch is south of Hendersonville.
Two of the best 2stroke men left and very reasonable.
uncle ned
Quote from: belfert on February 23, 2011, 03:41:01 PM
Many Detroit dealers will put trucks ahead of converted buses because trucks make money for the owner of the trucks. They also get a lot of repeat business from truck owners.
You need to make it clear that they need to fix your bus right away as they did it wrong and it is costing you money no different than any other truck being off the road.
The funny thing is that the times I have popped in on them during the week, there are always 4 or 5 guys sitting around in a circle talking and maybe 2 or 3 Greyhounds in the bay and no trucks at all. When I picked it up yesterday there was a fire truck in there. They are NOT busy.
Quote from: uncle ned on February 23, 2011, 03:44:33 PM
If you are coming to NC See either David at Davids Coach on hy 18 between Shelby and Morganton or Gene Russel
at Russells's Diesel in Mill Springs NC witch is south of Hendersonville.
Two of the best 2stroke men left and very reasonable.
uncle ned
I have heard good things about Gene Russell, not heard of David's Coach. I would be open to taking it to him if I don't hurt the bus by driving it home 7 or 8 hours. Gene would be about 2 hours from my house.
Marc
Williams will make it good don't they have a few locations closer to your home if you let someone else do the work you will lose the money already spent if Williams does it you will get credit for the bucks spent that is why they have a insurance policy on each of the mechanics.
I told you on the phone I never saw a injector blow it did not take 1 of the 4 valves out along with the head and here I was thinking you were 1 lucky guy lol If you have a problem with the branch manger call Williams home office in Columbus Ohio 1-800-999-0933
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 23, 2011, 04:24:50 PM
Williams will make it good don't they have a few locations closer to your home if you let someone else do the work you will lose the money already spent if Williams does it you will get credit for the bucks spent that is why they have a insurance policy on each of the mechanics.
I told you on the phone I never saw a injector blow it did not take 1 of the 4 valves out along with the head and here I was thinking you were 1 lucky guy lol
good luck
I just can't believe they would put me back on the road running like this. The closest other W.W.Williams to home is Columbia or Greer, SC, both 100+ miles away. Would it be okay to drive it 400 miles to get there? I just shouldn't have to do that. It should have been fixed right in the first place. I didn't take it to them to take a stab at fixing it, I wanted it fixed. I guess I'll talk to them in the morning and see what they say.
Williams in Phoenix and Williams in Atlanta, both, have worked on my bus. And they not only fixed it, but have offered to stand behind the work if not satisfied.
I would stick with Williams
BCO
David at Davids Coach just works on buses. A lot of entertainer buses and church buses and "HUGGY".
the first time he worked on my bus he asked me if i cared if he steam cleaned the engine. He only wanted to work
on it if clean. That is just like the inside of his shop. spotless.
He is just about 40 miles north of i85.
Was by there several weeks ago and he had Kelley Picklers bus. That was the second thing she bought after she
won on tv. if you have seen her picture after you will know what the first thing was.
uncle ned
Never mind the continued hand wringing on here.
Get back there and see what is what.
Give them a chance to show you their reputation.
Especially when you are flying blind and inexperienced.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: thejumpsuitman on February 23, 2011, 04:11:33 PM
The funny thing is that the times I have popped in on them during the week, there are always 4 or 5 guys sitting around in a circle talking and maybe 2 or 3 Greyhounds in the bay and no trucks at all. When I picked it up yesterday there was a fire truck in there. They are NOT busy.
Every Detroit dealer I have talked to readily admits they will put trucks in front of the line before motorhomes even if the motorhome was there first. I don't know that they will stop work on your vehicle once they start, but getting the work started could take longer.
I did notice when I was in Chattanooga on my way to Arcadia in December that Covington there did not look busy at all. There wasn't a single truck outside in the yard at all. The Detroit dealers here in Minneapolis always seem to have at least a few vehicles sitting outside.
I hope W.W. Williams gets your bus fixed right without costing you a lot more money.
I only suggested Genes or Davids because his profile shows NC as home. I thought he might be close. I would take it to the place that worked on it if I was close.
If he is close to either one of these guys they will tell him what is really happening.
uncle ned
I just checked with a friend at Williams in Phoenix all locations offer 90 days for labor and 1 year on parts for a warranty not that it helps you Marc but they are not going hang out to dry like most mom and pop shops
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 23, 2011, 05:23:45 PM
I just checked with a friend at Williams in Phoenix all locations offer 90 days for labor and 1 year on parts for a warranty not that it helps you Marc but they are not going hang out to dry like most mom and pop shops
good luck
Thanks for the encouragement. When they first called me saying it was done they told me it still smoked and that there was probably something else wrong. I was taken aback that they were willing to give it back like that when I brought it in to be repaired! Then we thought it cleared up. Turns out it didn't. Does this indicate that they did not do a compression check?
Bill said a compression test is standard policy when you loose a injector the metal has to pass through the valves he is not defending the branch he said if it came from his shop he would eat the whole bill even a new head if needed but he knows nothing about that branch management but it should be the same
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on February 23, 2011, 05:51:08 PM
Bill said a compression test is standard policy when you loose a injector the metal has to pass through the valves he is not defending the branch he said if it came from his shop he would eat the whole bill even a new head if needed but he knows nothing about that branch management but it should be the same
good luck
Thanks for the ammo.
Quote from: thejumpsuitman on February 23, 2011, 07:03:09 AM
The big mystery to me is how it is that the injector went bad at the exact same time that the exhaust came apart...??? ??? ??? ???
Can somebody explain how these things might be connected? A very strange coincidence to me. When we picked the bus up, it was purring like a kitten. Smooth and quiet (for a diesel).
Whether it was noticeable or not, the engine picked up a vibration with the misfire.
I would guess that the vibration finished off a weak exhaust flange.
Hope you get rolling soon.
---
Marc,
I definitely feel your frustration, sounds like you have my luck with buses. >:( Hang in there, W.W. Williams will get it right.
If it turns into more internal work I would second Uncle Ned's recommendation and drive her on home, he's right about David's Coach, top notch work and alot less money out of your pocket. If you need a head, I know of a place in Charlotte that can either rebuild yours or get one off the shelf for a fraction of the normal price.
Got my fingers crossed for you,
Brandon
I just spoke with the manager over at Williams. He said he would personally get involved and to bring the bus right over. I pray he will see my side of things and this bus can get fixed right.
Marc
Woops double posted by accident from the Blackberry.
The bus is back at Williams. They do talk a good game. Let's see if they get me fixed. This is day 11 after first dropping it off with them.
Marc,
I feel your pain, as my bus purchase did not go much better than yours has gone so far. Mine developed a serious oil leak on the drive out to the west coast.. I was able to limp it to a reputable mechanic where it spent the next five weeks!!! Yep 5! By this time I had lost all patience with the thing and was back on the road in my camper van. It is just this winter that I have regained my interest in the Bus and I hope to have it on the road by April. These things take massive amounts of patience and time, so remember your journey is just at its beginning. Rome was not built in a day, and neither can a bus be fixed in a day.
TM
Let's be fair to Williams, how many of those days in Montgomery have absolutely nothing to do with them?
We prefer to slag a vendor's reputation on here AFTER they have failed you.
You aren't there yet.
We also have no way of knowing the original terms of engagement and what limits you may have put on their attempts to HELP YOU so far...
This isn't your average internet slag fest, this is BCM.
This community likes to think just a little more highly of ourselves.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on February 24, 2011, 07:59:20 AM
Let's be fair to Williams, how many of those days in Montgomery have absolutely nothing to do with them?
We prefer to slag a vendor's reputation on here AFTER they have failed you.
You aren't there yet.
We also have no way of knowing the original terms of engagement and what limits you may have put on their attempts to HELP YOU so far...
This isn't your average internet slag fest, this is BCM.
This community likes to think just a little more highly of ourselves.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
They are certainly getting a chance to get it right and I am not slagging them. As for the original terms, they were simple. I took the bus in smoking and running like crap last Monday morning. I left it with instructions for them to fix whatever needed fixing, putting no limits on their efforts, but asked for an estimate first. I got it back smoking and running like crap. They said the miss was gone, it is very obviously not. I told them I was from out of town and was stalled here in Montgomery and needed to get home asap. They ordered the parts by standard shipping service which took 2 days extra without even give me the option to have parts shipped overnight, which I would have gladly paid for. I have had to call them for all updates and even go by there in person. They simply have not done right by me
thus far, but I am aware of their excellent reputation and am gladly giving them a chance to prove themselves.
As to my obvious frustration, walk a mile in my shoes. I have been twiddling my thumbs for 11 days and lost about $2,000 in income since I have been stuck here. I would have simply left the bus, gone home, and come back for it later if they would have told me it would take this long. I have been put off day by day and that has been aggravating.
Marc,
Bus Warrior is right. If this isn't vendor bashing, it is borderline. Most every guy here, or at least the vast majority of them, have been where you are right now at one time or another. IE: We have already walked in your shoes. Drop the Lone Ranger Syndrome and you will be a lot better for it. You are not the first guy to have problems with a vendor.
The paint shop promised my coach in three weeks, I got it 12 weeks later, it happens all the time. As for the final bill, it had to be litigated in the end. I had a vendor put some windshields in my bus, 59 days to install two windshields! The rest of the unsavory details I will not go into. I have ordered parts, gave them specific model numbers and the whole nine yards, then they ship me the WRONG PARTS and then refuse to take them back or pay the return freight.
It happens to all of us, you are no exception to the rule.
If you want overnight then it is up to YOU to tell them you want it, they are running a business, they don't have time to second guess every customer that comes into their shop. Three years ago while shut down in Atlanta and eating at the Waffle House (all three meals per day) I discovered that part of busing was not my idea of fun. But Williams called me regularly and kept me updated on what was going on ... I didn't have to go down there and rag them about it.
Having done business with Williams on more than one occasion, I can tell you this (again) they are reputable and they will meet or exceed your expectations.
You need to lighten up.
BCO
Quote from: boxcarOkie on February 24, 2011, 10:01:28 AM
Marc,
Bus Warrior is right. If this isn't vendor bashing, it is borderline. Most every guy here, or at least the vast majority of them, have been where you are right now at one time or another. IE: We have already walked in your shoes. Drop the Lone Ranger Syndrome and you will be a lot better for it. You are not the first guy to have problems with a vendor.
The paint shop promised my coach in three weeks, I got it 12 weeks later, it happens all the time. As for the final bill, it had to be litigated in the end. I had a vendor put some windshields in my bus, 59 days to install two windshields! The rest of the unsavory details I will not go into. I have order parts, give them specific model numbers and the whole nine yards, then they ship me the WRONG PART and then refuse to take it back or pay the freight.
It happens to all of us, you are no exception to the rule.
If you want overnight then it is up to YOU to tell them you want it, they are running a business, they don't have time to second guess every customer that comes into their shop. Three years agof while shut down in Atlanta and eating at the Waffle House (all three meals per day) I discovered that part of busing was not my idea of fun.
But Williams called me regularly and kept me updated on what was going on ... I didn't have to go down there and rag them about it. Having done business with Williams on more than one occasion, I can tell you this (again) they are reputable and they will meet or exceed your expectations.
You need to lighten up.
BCO
I'm glad you had a good experience with them. Mine wasn't as good. I'll leave it at that. I'm not trying to bash anybody, and I don't think I have. Just stating what happened and trying to deal with it. Now that I have some closure on it, I am ready to put this behind me and get this thing fixed.
Marc
Marc , good luck hope it is fixed soon! As many have said it is the beginning of the journey ,there will be lots questions for those that have been there done that. And as always the BCM family will be there to help in any way possible. Give williams a chance and get back on the road to home, kick sand on the drawn lines and enjoy your new bus..............lj
Just to wrap up this thread, they called me back saying they re-ran the rack and that it is now running smoothly, but still smoking like crazy under acceleration. They think it has a cracked piston ring and they don't want to go into it any further. They said "the engine is not monetarily worth repairing" and would rather just replace the engine. They are talking $15,000. Obviously out of the question for me.
Now that I know what's going on, I can proceed toward a resolution. I started a new thread asking for advice since it's a new topic.
And I quote!
Quote from: Busted Knuckle
Marc,
WW Williams is a stand up company that has locations all over the Eastern/Southern US and if they did wrong it will be warrantied @ ANY OF THEIR LOCATIONS!
As a matter of fact from my personal experiences the second location will go way above and beyond the norm to ensure that all is well and you are happy when you leave!
I have had many things done by them on the road and they have ALWAYS treated us right! (even if we were light in the wallet when we left! They still gave us our $ worth in excellent service! I long longer worry about how much it is until they are done, because # 1 it has to be fixed & # 2 I ain't there to do it myself!)
;D BK ;D
Get it out of there and head on up the highway! Once out on the road you will learn just how bad it really is. Then you can take it to another Williams shop and explain the situation and call the customer service hot-line! I can assure you that the "company" will see to it that you get treated right so as to NOT DAMAGE their reputation! BTDT have the T-Shirts to prove it! ;) Just ask anyone who knows me, or go back and read some of my past posts! I'm like you, I'm a slow fuse but once lit look out you'll see flames all the way over yonder from where I am!
But in all honesty Williams has been one of the few places that I'm still welcomed at when I walk in the door! I have had troubles several times and going to another location with a good but insistent attitude will go a long way!
;D BK ;D
Owning an old bus comes with it's pitfalls. We all know it. Sorry to hear about your problems. The majority of us that own these ole girls have quite a bit of mechanical knowledge and the place to work on them. We also know that we may have to write a big check for a rebuilt down the road. It's just the way it is. I'm not slamming you in anyway but this isn't a game for the faint of heart. We may save some money versus the 1/2 million dollar rigs but the majority of us also have the financial resources to afford that new rebuild if need be. Best of luck....
Quote from: Chopper Scott on February 24, 2011, 05:52:36 PM
Owning an old bus comes with it's pitfalls. We all know it. Sorry to hear about your problems. The majority of us that own these ole girls have quite a bit of mechanical knowledge and the place to work on them. We also know that we may have to write a big check for a rebuilt down the road. It's just the way it is. I'm not slamming you in anyway but this isn't a game for the faint of heart. We may save some money versus the 1/2 million dollar rigs but the majority of us also have the financial resources to afford that new rebuild if need be. Best of luck....
Well I went in with my eyes open, so what can really I say about having a breakdown?
Not that I'm made of money, but my frustration during this episode has had more to do with wasted time and lack of options than anything else. I have to admit that I was not prepared for the possibility of having to wait around for this period of time. Now I know it can happen. And when I learn something, I learn the heck out of it. ;D
Quote from: thejumpsuitman
Now I know it can happen. And when I learn something, I learn the heck out of it. ;D
;) ;D
Actually for me the time issue would have me going berzerk!! Granted I as well as everybody else doesn't want to part with that size of a chunk of change but we do know that going into the game. Still beats writing a $500,000 dollar check for something that you have to have worked on also! But I do think that they should have been a tad better as far as the time issues or letting you know what it would be. Just best of luck. Sure hate to see it after all the work you have put into even buying a bus.
Your right,, most of us have been through it with the vendors. Marc should be able to voice his negative experience with Williams as well as all that have had good experiences. Just because you go to Mc Donalds in one state and get good service does not mean you are going to get that same service in another state. It is the same with a big corporation in the deisel industry. Me personally, I would not take my bus to that perticular williams shop. Good 2 stroke mechanics are hard to find now. I know I have be taken for thousands of dollars and was in no better situation when I left as when I got there. What is he supposed to do go blow off steam to his wife and tell her the bus just cost them couple thousand dollars and it is not fixed and I dont know if it will even make it the rest of the way home. Then guess what happens we just lost another fellow bus nut. Marc I have been following your post waiting for the outcome. There was some good advice just move on and dont dwell on the past its done and over. I just finished up a lawsuit with a shop here locally (that I won) but it took 2 years in court and lots of my time. Even though I won I wish I would have just walked away and forgot about it. MARC...THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP!!!!
I wasn't trying to throw Williams under the bus... :D They did take me right back in this morning and had me running as smooth as possible within a couple hours. Their reputation for standing by their work is sound...
However they should have had their 2-stroke veteran on it in the first place, not as a last resort 11 days later when I had to make a stink. They also told me today that they did not do a compression test, which is contrary to what I understood their policy to be.
Anyway, I have no hard feelings. They were a great bunch of guys. (Some of the nicest people in the world live in Alabama) I'm just glad to finally have some answers and be on the way to getting it straightened out. Ready to put the frustration behind me.
They are obviously not accustomed to dealing with individuals/public, and I as a member of the public am not accustomed to dealing with a company like that. Greyhound and Trailways can afford to put a bus on the shelf for a month or so. Unfortunately when our bus breaks down, we don't have another one to jump into until it's fixed.
Marc
A semi (pun intended) related question regards truck stops. I have noticed in many of the bigger truck stops, off site service trucks come out to service semi trucks on site, right out in the back lot of the truck stop. Just how involved can you get working on your Bus out in back of a truck stop??? Just thinking out loud here, lol. Or in this case, to keep it on topic, would Williams (or another outfit) come out and work on a Bus at a truck stop?
For me, having a large motorhome type vehicle you can get easily serviced and repaired, if needed, is key. And being able to take advantage of as many resources as possible puts a lot of peace of mind into the equation.
Jumpsuit, I would hit the road now. Forcing it any further wont likely help you any further. And honestly, the next Williams up the road might just fix you up right. Auto mechanics just love to outsmart the last guy. I cant imagine these motors are that hard to diagnose if someones in the business of working on them. I am concerned about the comp test. If that is in fact standard practice, where you charged for it?
I didn't read anything in your posts that should have been considered derogatory to that Williams shop. If they "don't" order parts by next day air then they should have an specific instruction by the owner to waste that much time. Not the other way around. What would you do in their place? Are you so cute that they would want you hanging around? Well then. They should want you back on the road and out of their shop, also. Gone but happily.
If they had the bus for that long and gave it back to you needing a simple run of the rack then they should be ashamed. Are they telling you that they ran the rack and never even test ran the engine or are they saying that they were unable to diagnose a "miss" run of the rack. Neither is complementary and I am asking if there is another way to look at this particular facet? This shop in this instance did not live up to the Williams reputation and meet corp policy. They diagnosed the problem quickly and corrected it promptly when you brought it back and they should have done that in the first place. Everybody makes mistakes and everybody has bad days and I have bad months but I am not charging. You don't get Kudos for fixing a problem you generated no matter how quickly you get it straightened out. Considering how much time they wasted, if they did, they owe you at this point.
You were told that a compression check was done, as I understand it. Clifford told us that in the type of mech failure such as you experienced any shop SHOULD run a compression test. They finally admitted that they had, in fact, not run that test despite the paper work specifically stating that that test had been run. Did I miss something? Wouldn't be all that unusual.
You asked them to diagnose the problems and allow you to auth repair after getting a quote. They seem to be telling you, at this juncture, that your engine is so badly worn as to be not salvageable. If it was that bad then why did they work on it at all? They seem to have taken your $2,000 and then told you that you need to give then another $15,000 and they will throw in the disposal charge for the engine they just repaired without justification. I must be missing an awful lot here cause people I KNOW are great guys have chastised you for being impatient and trashing a "Good shop". I have tried to stay within the bounds of asking for clarification and I think you did the same thing. I didn't get that anything from what you said that you were anything other than asking for advice, clarification or just venting. NADA. I am here for all of those things and everybody else here has been consistently the same motivated.
If I were you I would limp to the next Williams shop and tell my tale briefly and succinctly to the manager Himself. No sour grapes...just ask for help and guidance. Maybe Clifford would talk to the next shop about your circumstance as he talks truck, and DD and Cummins and everything else it would seem. That way some of the green you have already shelled out might get a second washing and I think that has already been mentioned. The good news is that the shop you had work on your engine has a trans cont. rep as a superb outfit and they evidently take their reputation seriously.
Please know that I am not alone in seeing you as another Knut in a jam that is worried an venting and casting about for answers and advice. I am not alone in this opinion. I honestly feel that this will all work out better than you think. I also think that you lunched a jug as Clifford said he suspected. The ring thing makes sense and so does a valve but they have scopes they can insert in the air box ports and inspect the innards of a cylinder for damage. And then there is the compression test.
Worst case in an in-frame. Some here that worked in the trucking industry have said that in situations like this that the repaired the head and replaced the cylinder and then rolled the bearings to see if they needed repaired and sent the truck out. People are aghast at that kind of talk.
Good luck Buddy Knut, Keep us posted,
John
All I have said is what actually happened. If it sounds like I was bashing them, then they did it to themselves by the way they dealt with me. Since the thread is lingering, and since my dealings with them are over, AND since I think others who come through that area have the right to know, I think I have the "right" to comment on the Montgomery, Alabama W.W.Williams branch.
If they are a national chain with common policy, they should have done the compression check first since I actually brought the bus in to be diagnosed and repaired, regardless of what it was. They admitted that they did not run any kind of diagnostics, so they were not following company policy right off the bat. In fact, yesterday when I specifically asked about a compression check, the mechanic said "Well, that's really hard to do, and it wouldn't tell us what is wrong." I am not making that up! Whether or not I was charged for it, I can't tell from the bill.
One issue I have not even brought up is my tail lights. I asked them if they could see why some were not working. They told me they had an "electrical guru" who could look at them. But later when I asked if the guru had found the problem, they told me that electrical issues were not in the scope of what they do there... HUH?
On the subject of ordering the parts... After I first dropped it off I didn't want to hound them, so I waited until late in the day to call. That's when they said they had ordered the injector, so I didn't even get a chance to request overnight. I guess I though that maybe they even had one in stock. I didn't know an 8V71 was so rare in today's world. I actually would have offered to drive to Atlanta myself to pick it up had I known it would take 2 days to get it. But in the entire 11 day scheme of things, this wasn't really a big deal.
But after installing the injector, they then had to order a blower gasket. I don't know why they didn't order that at the same time as the injector, but then again I don't know if you can re-use those or not. Anyway, I found this out when I dropped by in person last Friday afternoon. When I arrived, they said they had to order it and it would be in Monday. I reminded them that I was from out of town and had to get back asap, so they sent a worker across town to pick it up instead so they could get it done before the weekend.
I called again near closing time to see if it was ready, they said yes and that they were test driving it. They called me back a few minutes later saying it was smoking heavily and that to fix it right would be very expensive because they had no idea what was wrong with it. I'M SORRY, BUT ISN'T THAT YOUR JOB?... TO FIND OUT WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT?... AND ISN'T THAT WHY I BROUGHT IT TO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE?
When we got there to pick it up, the exhaust was still broken and hanging off and the engine still skipping (which I couldn't tell because it was so loud). When I asked if I should drive it that way, the worker said...
"I can't tell you because I don't want to be liable."
(Sorry, that's not very helpful!)
I then said, "I am not trying to hold you responsible for anything, but I need to know if I am going to damage the engine."
He finally said, "I wouldn't if it was mine, but I can't really tell you what to do."
So I called Clifford while the bus was running and he said...
"No Way! Do not drive it sucking exhaust!"
Let me back up one second... When I first dropped the bus off, it was explained to them that the exhaust had come apart and I wanted them to fix that too. They ignored that whole issue until I insisted they keep it to fix it.
So I asked them to keep the bus and repair the disconnected exhaust pipe which they said they could do Monday. It was at this time that the young mechanic told me that he had personally run the rack, but had never worked on this kind of engine before and had never even seen an 8V71 before.
I heard nothing all day Monday, so late in the day I called to see if it was done, they said there is no way it could be done by the end of the day. Okay. Tuesday they called me late in the day saying it was done. By the time we got there, the mechanics were all gone and they were ready to close the gate. As soon as we pulled out and started down the road, I knew it still was not right. It still had a dead miss. That's when I started this thread.
The entire next day I spent plugging a hole in the muffler myself in a church parking lot to see if maybe what I was hearing was an exhaust leak. It was not. Got the manager on the phone early the next morning, took it back and their veteran mechanic had it running smoothly within a couple hours. Of course, the deeper issues had not been addressed or properly diagnosed, except to say to me that basically "your engine is screwed up and it's going to cost more than it's worth to fix it".
All of my dealings with W.W. Williams in Montgomery happened over the course of 11 days, they had it for 10 of those days, the only day they didn't have was the day I was gooping up the muffler.
Just because the company has a good national reputation does NOT mean I am wrong! And it does not mean they are right! My experience with them has been decidedly negative and I highly doubt taking it to another location will get me any closer to getting it fixed without costing an arm and a leg.
I am sure they will tell me that I paid for the repair that was done and it didn't fix the problem. That's basically the attitude I got from this branch. But in actuality, I took it there to be diagnosed and to get an estimate on a proper repair. This did NOT happen. Instead they took a stab and a guess at what was wrong, hoping it would fix it, and I now have to start all over again. Believe it or not, I am really not bitter, but I am sure frustrated and don't feel like I got a lot for my money!
Marc
So what is actually wrong with the engine?
The injector failure won't break a compression ring no way can it reach the ring it buries in the head , chips a valve or buries in the dish on the piston fwiw
good luck
Quote from: wal1809 on February 25, 2011, 07:10:20 AM
So what is actually wrong with the engine?
Unfortunately, at this point in my life I am a diesel dum dum. I will now throw my self on the mercy of the next shop. I do have some good recommendations, so I am optimistic yet!
Quote from: thejumpsuitman on February 25, 2011, 07:55:07 AM
Quote from: wal1809 on February 25, 2011, 07:10:20 AM
So what is actually wrong with the engine?
Unfortunately, at this point in my life I am a diesel dum dum. I will now throw my self on the mercy of the next shop. I do have some good recommendations, so I am optimistic yet!
I honestly would head for another Williams and let them try again. If the head honchos at the top are even half as decent as is suggested here by others, there is a very good chance they will stand behind this make it right for you. They have insurance for crap like this, you just have to pull their chain a lil.
Clifford is right on as usual, I have seen first hand what an injector ( RUN-A-MUK) can do up in there, huh Clifford ;)
Keep the faith! Did they replace the injector tube also? smoke could be a non seated injector possibly?
Besides the visual inspections ( head, cylinder, oil pan) would an oil analysis be helpful? just trying to help. All the best! ;)
You know, thinking on this, we have so many tools now to do inspections. We can inspect the compression rings through the air box cover (not the oil rings), we can see the liner, we can use those new digital camera on a plumbing snake tools to look up inside the cylinder and inspect the valves, etc. There is just so much that can be done when you used to have to take things apart.
Good Luck! you'll get it sorted for sure.
Brian
I have neve rgone into a decent shop that did not have Borescope I know Williams has those me being a average Joe I have one 300 bucks from Extech best 300 bucks you can spend next to a IR gun
good luck
He can do what ever he chooses but if Marc takes it to another shop with out a battle he is just out a 1000+ bucks the minute some other shop touches that engine best for him to settle the matter it not going to do anymore damage to engine if it takes him a year not like he needs to be in a big hurry he can drive the bus anywhere.
good luck
Clifford,
I have one of those cameras on a snake. Got it from Harbor Freight and paid.....wait for it......$89. It was on sale. Normally they cost $40 more. I think I scored. I have already opened up a wall for a pocket door because of the nightmare I saw brewing inside with detached pipe insulation coming loose. I also condemned one of my gas tanks because of what I saw in there and that saved me a lot of grief down the road.
I offered it to any that wanted to use it for whatever when I was up at Rickreall last year and had no takers. I would think that curiosity would have driven some to open an air-box just to look see. WVO burners should be curious, I would think.
I know yours is a better tool than mine and I can't use my display in bright sunlight. I B happy tho.
John the seer
$300, $89, hey you guys aren't supposed to tell how much money you paid for something!!! Oh wait! ....nobody asked you how much you paid, you just volunteered the info so i guess that is all right. ;D
Sorry - I got to agree with Elvis - If a national company sticks their name out there as being an "expert" on DD's then they should darn well mean it - If Elvis' story is factual, this branch of Williams sounds more like parts replacers than trained technicians - If they inspected the bus and could not diagnose the problem they should have said so and given him the option of going elsewhere - Once they agreed to "fix" it they should have either "fixed" it or NOT CHARGED HIM - Once they accepted his money they "warranteed" their work - If he had gone to a shade tree mechanic charging a cheep hourly rate I can understand the 'you get what you pay for' mentality, but when you pay a shop rate 3 or 4 times that amount for "professional" expertise you should expect just that - At this point Option 1 is to fix their mistake - Option 2 is to refund the money - They have done neither - My advise is to call Williams corporate headquarters and explain just as I have said - If you get no result call DD and tell them to have the DD factory authorized service sign removed from their business or for them (DD) to compensate you for your loss - Don't laugh - When NAPA years ago created their franchise service centers (not owned by NAPA) I needed my Vette tuned and the shop down the block had just been designated a NAPA Car Care Center - For convenience, and because at the time NAPA had a stellar reputation, I used their services - They almost destroyed my vehicle requiring me to bring it to the GM dealer to fix it - I sent a letter along with the documentation and my NAPA account # to the president of NAPA in Atlanta complaining about the service (damages) I recieved - Within one week I recieved a complete refund of my bill along with a letter of apology FROM THE PRESIDENT and the NAPA Car Care Center logo was removed from the location the next week - FWIW & HTH