hi i am looking at buy an inverter for my mci 9 bus it is 24 volt does anyone have any ideas on what i should use in size and how good they work are they worth putting in or should i just put in 12 volt light thanks tony
are you looking for an inverter or converter??
inverter is to convert 24v dc to household AC power
converter can step down 24v dc to 12v dc
or a battery equalizer can be used to tap into the 12v
on all of these , you will need to know your main loads and type, before you can decide on a model or size.
Aside from saying 24 volt is my preferred way to go, and pure sine is my choice, it's hard to suggest anything until you know your application requirement. At a minimum I would look at what your anticipated loads are, your desire to run off the bus battery/alternator while running or house batteries while stopped, and what else you have in your electrical system already.
Brian
an inverter i plan to se it to power the lights tv and maybe the air if it can be done
Quote from: tony on February 18, 2011, 01:49:11 PM
an inverter i plan to se it to power the lights tv and maybe the air if it can be done
Oh no Tony, now you've gone and done it. So you want to run the A/C off the inverter?
Welcome to the madness.
I have a magnum 4024 that I got from Wrico and I run my AC (one only) going down the road or when stopped and fueling -- If I remember correctly it doesn't do power sharing but I haven't needed that yet
HTH
YMMV
Melbo
u run a xantrex sw4024. it will power 2 of my roof ac's with no problems. i also run a household fridge and standart appliances on it, but then i have watch my load and switch down to one ac. great about these older xantrex units is, that they allow power sharing . if you have only 15 amp service , you still can run all your items. it will share and ad the rest from your house bank. when demand is lower it will recharge the bank again. the mc units also have inputs for gen and service. so no need for transfer switches.
also i think that xantrex is the only unit meeting ground and bonding codes.
i have the same units stacked in my off grid home. they run now for 6 years with no problems or downtime.
knock on wood :)
Never could understand running ACs from an inverter when driving instead of using the genset?/
Maybe someone can enlighten me?
If you are setup for it, using the 50dn off the motor to power the inverter is more efficient than running the generator.
Quote from: gus on February 18, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
Never could understand running ACs from an inverter when driving instead of using the genset?/
Maybe someone can enlighten me?
Gus,
Me Too!
The math doesn't work out unless your running down the road full time.
Especially with a modern diesel genset, sized to around 80% of your average load.
I assumed road travel. Otherwise noise?
What math???? I am driving and I have the inverter that is paid for --- Just wire up the bus the right way and you can run the ac from either source --- The thing I like is letting the ac run while fueling when it is hot outside and not having to worry about engines running. I also run the ac when we park for lunch and don't have to fire up the genset.
YMMV
Melbo
Quote from: gus on February 18, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
Never could understand running ACs from an inverter when driving instead of using the genset?/
Maybe someone can enlighten me?
Sure. Generator time costs me about $3.75 per hour at today's fuel prices. If you have a generator that is more than twice as efficient as mine, you'll pay more like $1.60 per hour.
By contrast, if you already have an inverter and a large alternator, then using those to power the A/Cs will cost you more like $0.60 per hour (at today's fuel prices) -- less if you spend a lot of time in the hills -- for the same amount of power. That's a savings of from $1 to $3 per hour, depending on the size of your genny.
For us, driving as we do about 500 hours per year, using the inverter vs. running the genny while we are driving saves us somewhere around $1,000 per year.
YMMV, as they say, but it will
never be as cheap to run a separate generator as it is to use an alternator driven off the main engine to run the same loads. Ever. It is a simple matter of math and thermodynamics.
Are you enlightened? :)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Any opinions on the Xantrex XW Hybrid?
http://partsonsale.com/xwinverter.pdf (http://partsonsale.com/xwinverter.pdf)
Brian S.
Quote from: Depewtee on February 18, 2011, 07:57:27 PMAny opinions on the Xantrex XW Hybrid?
http://partsonsale.com/xwinverter.pdf (http://partsonsale.com/xwinverter.pdf)
Brian S.
These seem to be geared toward the large capacity, off-the-grid building market. Only the 4K version will accept 24V; no 12V model available. Also, "New, Higher-Technology" usually means many $$$$$. But they look good as regards to their efficiency and features.
I use an inverter to run my rooftop AC on the road. I looked at installing a water cooled, quiet, diesel generator and my cost was going to be at least $5K for the way that I would do it. I needed an inverter setup anyway, I sure wanted to be able to make coffee or run the microwave while travelling if I wanted to, and for $2K I installed a 3KW PSW inverter with fully automatic switching, etc, that runs my roof AC just fine, and has can run any other load I might install as well. I can't come up with a scenario that saves me the $3K I didn't have to spend on a generator that I could run while on the road. I carry a Yamaha 3Kw gas generator that I can run while parked for those times that I need to run the AC without a plugin, and I can run everything in the bus aside from the AC for a couple of days on the batteries. Yes, I had to buy the Yamaha, it cost $1200 plus a trade-in, and I needed it anyway for emergency power and power at the race track.
That's why I don't run a generator on the road. Plus the noise, vibration, maintenance, etc. Not to say that those that do run a generator are wrong, just that running an inverter does make an awful lot of sense too.
Brian
Isn't there also an issue of losing engine performance when powering A/C from the alternator? Those of us with the smaller engines need all the power we can get.
I do have an inverter, but only 3,000 watts. It could potentially run two A/C units, but not anything else. (I can run both A/Cs from my 30 amp outlet at home.) I don't use my A/C on the road enough to justify a larger inverter. I just start the generator.
2,000 watts to run a rooftop is 2.7 horsepower without losses. Call it 4 or 5 hp. Impossible to notice, I would expect. Less than the horsepower needed to carry the generator, I would wager ;)
Brian
Quote from: belfert on February 19, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
Isn't there also an issue of losing engine performance when powering A/C from the alternator? Those of us with the smaller engines need all the power we can get.
Only a touch, as Brian wrote. My 50DN uses about 10hp when it is cranking out well over 200 amps (nearly 6kW), and we barely notice it.
When we are climbing a long or steep grade, I will sometimes turn off the house inter-tie, returning the alternator to just running the paltry chassis loads. That probably saves me 8hp at the time when I need it the most. The inverter continues to run everything from the house batteries. When we hit the top of the grade, I turn the inter-tie back on -- all the power generated on the downhill side is free, and we get to save a couple degrees on the retarder as well.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
ok so what i am reading is 6 of one a half dozen of the other so do i even need an inverter i have a 8k des generator i have a gas refrig would i be better off just using 12 volt lights so if i want to get up at night to see thanks tony
Tony,
You are finding that it is difficult to get a simple answer for such a simple question. If I had the money I would have one of everything and not have to worry about it. My bus came with 12v lighting and I like turning a switch and it works. I have added a few 120v lights thinking I would use them while plugged in and am finding I don't. The bus has a converter that is on when plugged up so I don't use much battery power parked. With that being said I have never run my batteries out when dry camping. My generator mostly runs the A/Cs and microwave. I have a 400w inverter that runs a TV and DVD player. Depending on how you use your bus mostly determines what you need. You can always add more when money permits. I like the 12v lighting and it is a simple and inexpensive solution to a basic need. I would install one if I was doing a bus conversion from a shell.
HTH
The problem is that it's a simple question with a lot of right answers! If you already have a generator that you could run on the road. then it's free and it's only your fuel cost. Then I would buy a small, 1,000 - 1500 watt pure sine inverter. That's so you have reserve to run a fridge if you decide to, and run everything else too. I would use 12v or 24v DC lights regardless, that's more efficient that running 120 volt lights through the inverter. You have to learn what your choices are, ask around for ideas, and then decide what makes the most sense for you!
Ain't buses grand! All the things to choose from!
Brian
Another option that I am considering, is to have 12 volt cigarette lighters at various places inside the coach. Most stores sell cheap little inverters for charging cell phones and other things on the road. Im thinking about possibly getting a bunch of those little inverters for a bunch of cigarette lighters to run AC current stuff. If one goes out it would be no big deal to replace it and you have redundancy. Maybe do this with a big expensive inverter to run an air conditioner...
Quote from: happycamperbrat on February 20, 2011, 01:27:22 PM
Another option that I am considering, is to have 12 volt cigarette lighters at various places inside the coach. Most stores sell cheap little inverters for charging cell phones and other things on the road. Im thinking about possibly getting a bunch of those little inverters for a bunch of cigarette lighters to run AC current stuff. If one goes out it would be no big deal to replace it and you have redundancy.
The problem with that approach is that it is much, much less efficient than one larger inverter. It's also a lot more expensive. Ten 300-watt inverters will cost more than twice what one 3,000-watt inverter will, and two 300-watt inverters running 300-watt loads will use 20% more power than those same two 300-watt loads connected to the single 3,000-watt inverter.
Lastly, remember that transmitting DC power over distance is way less efficient (and requires way more copper) than transmitting the same amount of AC power over the same distance. The additional losses in your DC lines and the lighter sockets will rob you of even more efficiency.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2011, 03:47:11 PM
The problem with that approach is that it is much, much less efficient than one larger inverter. It's also a lot more expensive. Ten 300-watt inverters will cost more than twice what one 3,000-watt inverter will, and two 300-watt inverters running 300-watt loads will use 20% more power than those same two 300-watt loads connected to the single 3,000-watt inverter.
Lastly, remember that transmitting DC power over distance is way less efficient (and requires way more copper) than transmitting the same amount of AC power over the same distance. The additional losses in your DC lines and the lighter sockets will rob you of even more efficiency.
-Sean
Well Poop that would kinda defeat most of the purpose.........
I contribute NO technical advice to this post. It's just a comment I've wanted to make for some time. And that is: I wish I knew 1/4 of the stuff Sean knows.
Nellie
Quote from: Nellie Wilson on February 20, 2011, 05:59:06 PM
... just a comment I've wanted to make for some time. And that is: I wish I knew 1/4 of the stuff Sean knows.
And I wish I could have one tenth your musical talent. I love music, but I can't carry a tune in a bushel basket. I am often asked to sing tenor... ten or eleven miles away. (But I do it in the shower when no one else is home, and sometimes on the dance floor if I've had enough to drink, much to the dismay of those around me.)
Each of us has his or her own talents. Mine, apparently, is bloviating on the Internet about technical topics. Occasionally, I can even actually fix something. But the price I pay for having a head crammed full of engineering constants and technical gibberish is there is no room left for art, and I can't tell a treble clef from treble damages.
So I will make you a deal: I will relax with a friendly glass of some inexpensive claret while you entertain, and you can ask me all the inverter questions you'd like :)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2011, 06:35:42 PM
I will relax with a friendly glass of some inexpensive claret while you entertain, and you can ask me all the inverter questions you'd like :)
Sean
I find my self as the "go-to guy" at work. If someone has a question on how, why, what, I seem to get the call. I would love to share a bottle of Pinot Noir, Pinot Grigio, or even a couple snifters of single malt and pick your brain on systems.
I am also in need of an inverter for my project but am having a hard time justifying a box that cost 2/3 of what my bus ran me.
I'm thinking of two stacked inverters for 240 ac for all input configurations. Has anybody done this?
Brassman
They make inverters that produce/use 240 volts
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818 (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818)
or ones that sync and stack like you are thinking about.
http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-240V-AC-/290534680285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a53766dd (http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-240V-AC-/290534680285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a53766dd)
I personally don't trust the Stack type inverters FWIW
Brice
There are stacking inverters and then there are legal and safe stacking inverters. Sean has the reasons, but I don't believe the stacking inverters in the link are safe or legal for our use. I think the main reason is the use of plugs for the AC output, I think they have to be hard-wired for permanent installations.
Brian
Some of the Magnum inverters can be stacked for 240 volt - Kenny
Tony, Welcome to the madness!!
If you would tell us more about what you would like to do with your coach, we could really help more. Things like how much you want to spend, where you plan to go, how often do you expect to use it, do you only go places that has electricity, what appliances you plan to install and what do they run from (example: fridge - gas, AC or 12vDC). We love to help, but we often spin our wheels when we have nothing to grip! ;D
Glenn
Quote from: babell2 on February 20, 2011, 10:16:02 PM
Brassman
They make inverters that produce/use 240 volts
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818 (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818)
All of those models are 230 volt 50 hz for European use. I found one that said it did 50 or 60 Hz, but it said it is only sold OUTSIDE the USA.
If you care about codes I believe an inverter has to be certified for RV use. I'm pretty sure those Ebay models are not certified for RV use. Like Brian said, Magnum makes a stackable inverter that will do 240 volt. Outback does too and probably Xantrex. (Not sure on Xantrex as they don't make that many RV inverters anymore.)
I'm wondering why you would need 240 volt in a bus unless you are doing 240 volt air conditioning? I converted my generator from 240 volt to 120 volt because the generator doesn't like the load unbalanced when doing 240 volt.
Quote from: Brassman on February 20, 2011, 09:58:31 PM
I'm thinking of two stacked inverters for 240 ac for all input configurations. Has anybody done this?
Yes, many people have done this, some with more success than others. But your comment about "input configurations" gives me pause -- even a single 120-volt inverter can be used with "all input configurations." The purpose of stacking 120-volt inverters to make 240/120 split phase has to do with output, not input. As noted below, unless you need 240-volt output for some reason, there are all kinds of reasons why you are better off sticking with 120. Most stackable 120-volt inverters can be stacked to produce double the current at 120 volts, as well as the other way (same current but at 240 volts).
Quote from: babell2 on February 20, 2011, 10:16:02 PM
Brassman
They make inverters that produce/use 240 volts
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818 (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/product-series.cfm?txtSeriesID=818)
That model does not produce North American voltage, which is 240/120-volt split phase at 60Hz. You do not want this Tripp-Lite model unless you are building for overseas.
Quote
or ones that sync and stack like you are thinking about.
http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-240V-AC-/290534680285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a53766dd (http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-240V-AC-/290534680285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a53766dd)
Those inverters are not legal in the US, and certainly not safe if "stacked" as shown in the eBay listing. The are not listed for RV use (or for any other use, near as I can tell), they can not be hard-wired so would have to be located at point of use (say, next to the coffee maker to run the coffee maker). More importantly, you can never, ever connect two separate plug-end cordsets to the same thing -- it's incredibly dangerous.
Besides that, even if they could be made safe and legal (they can't), these units are straight 240, not 240/120 split phase. Again, this is not the North American power standard, and unless everything on your coach is 240, there is no way to really make use of these. The "stacking" that these units provide (if illegally wired as shown in the drawing) is not to make 240/120 split phase out of multiple 120 units, but rather to simply increase current output at the single rated voltage.
Quote from: bevans6 on February 21, 2011, 05:18:36 AM
There are stacking inverters and then there are legal and safe stacking inverters. Sean has the reasons, but I don't believe the stacking inverters in the link are safe or legal for our use. I think the main reason is the use of plugs for the AC output, I think they have to be hard-wired for permanent installations.
That's one reason, and it is one that makes most inexpensive low-output inverters unsuitable for bus conversions. You are not permitted to use a plug and cord to connect a hard-wired electrical system to an inverter, generator, or any other source with the sole exception of shore power at a properly listed inlet.
However, as I wrote above, these units are also not listed, and, worse, the connection diagram anticipates that you will use multiple plug-and-cord sets and gang the outputs together to connect to something downstream. It is never legal, and incredibly unsafe, to do this.
Quote from: belfert on February 21, 2011, 06:48:10 AM
...
If you care about codes I believe an inverter has to be certified for RV use. I'm pretty sure those Ebay models are not certified for RV use.
I am quite certain they are not, and as I wrote earlier, they do not appear to carry any listing at all, making them unlawful for almost anything. But that is the nature of eBay, where you can no longer buy a legal firearm, but you can buy all manner of other crap that can't legally be used in this country.
Quote
I'm wondering why you would need 240 volt in a bus unless you are doing 240 volt air conditioning? I converted my generator from 240 volt to 120 volt because the generator doesn't like the load unbalanced when doing 240 volt.
This would be my question as well. As I wrote way up top, unless you have 240-volt loads, you're better off stacking inverters (if you even need that much capacity) to produce straight 120. From an input standpoint, the only reason you would need to stack inverters to 240 is if you needed more than 6kW of inverters, and even then, only if you actually need them to pass-through that amount.
As Glenn wrote, without knowing a little more about your plans, it's hard to know what to write.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
If one is looking at a 220 volt inverter so everything in the bus runs through the inverter you can get 110 volt inverters with a 50 amp double throw transfer switch. The RS3000 is one such model, but 12 volt only so it won't work for me.
WARNING: Hijack in progress!
I just want to make sure I got this straight, I have a 24 volt alternator and the 50-60 Vanner which gives me 12 volt for head lights and such. Now my understanding is
1) NOT to touch the batteries or Vanner in order to do a house/battery/inverter system,
2) I need a 24 volt inverter attached to my alternator and another set of batteries like this http://cgi.ebay.com/Magnum-4000-W-Inverter-24-V-105-Charger-more-/250774908231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a63596d47 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Magnum-4000-W-Inverter-24-V-105-Charger-more-/250774908231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a63596d47)
3) the inverter brands to use are Outback, Xantrex or Magnum (stay away from Chinese made ones)
Will most inverters work with 24 volt solar panels as well as wind power (small windmill when parked sometimes) as well as a big a$$ 24 volt alternator as well as a bunch of batteries wired together to make 24 volt power?
I just want to make sure I am getting all this right...... Thanks!
Quote from: happycamperbrat on February 21, 2011, 09:32:32 AM
WARNING: Hijack in progress!
...
I need to get on the road, so can't really take the time to answer right now. But let me suggest that you should really re-post this as a new thread. For one, this sort of hijack (your own admission) makes the current thread hard to read, and for another, I think you will get more interested responses by starting a fresh thread.
JMO, FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Anyway, back to inverters, & in my thread hijack: those of the 240 volt kind.
My 240 loads would be a multi-zone mini-split heat pump, and induction hobs. I would want to run these off inverters, so if I only have a 30 amp RV power connection, I can still run them and a charger.
If my math is correct, you're going to have a hard time keeping a 220 volt air conditioner running during really hot periods if you're charging batteries through a 30 amp connection. My assumption is that a 220 volt A/C unit takes 15 amps at 220 volts. This essentially means it would take all of your 30 amp shore circuit to supply power to your inverter via a charger/transformer. We have not even considered losses converting AC to DC and back again.
If the air conditioner isn't running continuously or it takes less than 15 amps this might work out. Personally, I would do everything in my power to stay with 115 volt mini splits.
12k 2 zone mini at about 8 amps on heat. I haven't sized up on the ac 'cause I'm too scared to look.
Belfert, I'll make a wager: that I can engineer my 240 V inverter bus electrical system to be, not only be more expensive, but also more complex and convoluted, than your 120 V mini-spilts system.
So far, it hasn't cost me a dime.
I'll wager a dime! ;D
I don't have any mini splits. I meant to say if I was designing a system with mini splits for my use I would do everything I could do to use 120 volt mini splits. I use roof tops primarily because I can't spare the bay space for mini splits or basement units.
8 amps isn't quite so bad, but remember you need to have a charger that would do a minimum of 80 amps at 24 volts to handle that load. You would probably need 100 amps or more in reality due to conversion losses.
I haven't figured out the duty-cycle on the ac's, so I don't know the amp-hours that I need to charge to.
At the moment, it's only a thought experiment; but I like the idea of a 240 V battery buffered circuit powering the non-resitive AC loads.
OK not to "HIJACK" this thread..........But it was brought up so I'll ask.
I need a couple good quality 24 inverters say about 1000-1500 watts without all the fancy bells and whistles.
These will only be used while going down the road and there will be no "house battery system!"
They will be run off the existing 24 V coach batteries. No needs for charging the batts the alternator will keep things powered.
Any ideas ?
;D BK ;)
My toys are packed and Im moving to my own thread lol....... my life of crime is over ;)