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 I try to avoid driving at night due to the old eyes and the terrible headlights.  I have been thinking of upgrading them (the headlights, not the eyes) and have read through some of the archives on the subject.  It looks to me that properly adjusted e-codes would be the way to go.  From what I gather, Cibies seem to have the most favorable reputation.  However, Hella's seem to be close behind and less than half the price.  I am considering both but leaning toward cheap since I expect the improved pattern plus the upgrade to halogen will be enough of an improvement to make me happy.

My questions are these: First, would it be reasonable to just switch out the low beams for now and evaluate whether to do the high beams later?  Second, it appears that the H4 bulbs come in several different wattage.  The most common I have come across were 70/75 watts.  I believe that the standard is something like 55 watts.  Would it be best to stay to the lower wattage?

I am using a kit from Hella with two 4" by 6" low beams.  They work about as expected, a lot better than the sealed beams.  I think they are DOT legal, but I don't know the bulb wattage, I just used what came in the kit.  Having high beams would help, but they aren't bad on high beam by themselves and they are pretty good on low beam.  They come with an adapter cable to the sealed beam plug, which has a different pin-out than the Halogen bulbs.

Brian

Before you spend a lot of money on lights, carefully check the voltage right at the headlamp.  If it's not within a tenth of a volt from the battery voltage, it's time to examine all the wiring and connections.

Chances are, it will not be what it should and perhaps never was.  Going to a higher wattage lamp might only make it worse.

Lin, as Len pointed out, the first thing you need to do is to get the voltage to the headlight.  Without question, I would install relays at the headlights with a large conductor, from a good source, feeding the relays.  You only need one large conductor to feed the two relays.  You will be happy you made that modification.  On Eagles the headlights are fed through fuses that do not have good contact after years of abuse.

I learn the hard way, that you need to house the relays in a water tight enclosure or use moisture proof relays.  Should be obvious, but sometimes idiots don't think (me ::)).  One time the headlights were on without the switch and another time I could not get the headlights on - both times after being in a rain storm.

In your research, I am sure you ran across what I believe is the best site for headlight technology:

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/ (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/)

He is not the most pleasant person to deal with and never did ship my headlights after I ordered them (they were back ordered - he did not charge me).

I wanted to keep my stock dual 5.75 light and that really dictates something like the E code bulb.  I had justified the cost after a terrible trip on a mountain road at night - definitely not planned.  After he failed to ship my order, I spent the money on something else and have never gotten back to where I could justify the cost again.

I think you could go with just the low beam and you would be in much better shape.  Obviously both beams would be better.  Daniel does not favor higher wattage bulbs.

Lately I have been trying to find some good "off road" lights.  The are a lot less expensive.  When you think about it, we really only need super headlights when we are out in the boondocks.  The chances of getting in trouble using them are pretty small if you use good judgment.

Jim

If you want an upgrade but don't want to spend Cibie or Hella prices, check out the Autopal line of headlights - quality wise I'd rate them way better than the typical Sylvania found at Auto Zone, but not as good as a Hella.  I put a 4 light set on an 89 Prevost and it made a huge difference using 55 watt bulbs.  I will second and third that the voltage needs to be right up there or you will lose some of the benefits.  If you go with higher wattage bulbs you should consider the relays mandatory.  I would do the high beams as well - my experience is that they will throw a lot of light and are very useful when you are looking for those hidden campground or street signs late at night.

Source for the Autopal lights:  http://rimiusa.com/ (http://rimiusa.com/)

Wiring diagram for relays - last post on this page:  http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=113846 (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=113846)

You may also consider a set of low mounted driving/fog lights in addition to the headlight upgrade - depending on what you get and how they are aimed, they can provide a broad fill pattern right in front of the bus which will supplement the regular headlights (fog lights) or a narrower, longer distance beam (driving lights).

Hopefully the subject of driving lights is not too much of a hijack. 

In our part of the country, we don't get much fog.  I am more focused ( ;D) on driving lights.  Anybody have a favorite?

Jim

10 years ago I could not drive at night because of the poor headlights.
Replace 5.75 inch headlights in 79 prevost with Cibie 5.75-HCR 5 3/4" E-Code Halogen Low/High Beam - Cibie H4.
I used 75w 24volt bulbs so I did not have to rewire the headlights.
Now its almost like driving in daylight. This was the best $160 investment in the coach I have made.
Expensive yes , but seeing at night priceless.
I have a four bulb system and I purchased the high beams, but have not installed them yet since I have to modify the back of the headlight buckets to fit the longer bulbs.  I really don't use the high beams much

I got them through Talbot & Co. aardvark international    http://www.talbotco.com/ (http://www.talbotco.com/)
I have outstanding service.

I did the same thing as jp, bought from Talbot, and used 5 3/4 E beams, huge difference not only down the road but off to the side, you can actually see the roadside signs.

Chuck

I assume you have 12v lights.

After you check the voltage and grounds my suggestion is to install sealed beam Halogen lights.

I didn't know they existed until a clerk at NAPA told me about them. They give you the advantage of Halogen plus if the lens cracks the light still works. These are not regular sealed beams.

Only $13 a couple of years ago for 7" round ones for my 4104, best buy I ever made. I assume they have rectangular ones as well as the round.

Much brighter than straight sealed beams.

Lin -

I'm a strong believer in the E-code headlamps, as you've probably found by reading the archives.

I have owned Cibie, Hella, and Marchal lamps.  Of these three, IMHO, the Cibie's are worth every penny, with Hella being my second choice.  I haven't seen Marchal lamps in a long time, nor have I seen the Italian Carello's, either.  All four brands were quite popular back in the middle 60's amongst the car rally crowd.

I had never heard of the AutoPal headlamps Steve mentioned, so I did a little Googling.  Found out they're made in India - probably helps explain the lower cost.  Mixed reviews of product quality.  E-codes seem to be ok, Diamonds not so much. 

But best of all, on a Jeep forum, somebody posted pics of the difference in lighting pattern between the US DOT and E-codes when mounted on the front of a CJ.  These are the larger 200mm rectangular lights, which have a slightly different spread pattern compared to 5" or 7" round lamps.  Regardless, LOOK at the difference in light pattern on the garage between the two.  Notice the sharp cut-off on the left side, with the rise to the right.  That sharp cut-off is what reduces/eliminates glare to oncoming traffic.  Here's the link to the Jeep forum, the lighting pic is partially down the first post:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/autopal-h4-conversion-install-400577/ (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/autopal-h4-conversion-install-400577/)

That picture is a great representation of what I've been babbling about for years on these forums about headlamps!

The stock 55w H1, H2, H3, or H4 bulb, depending on what's required for the particular lamp, seems to work fine with the E-Codes.  I'd suggest the higher wattage only for the high beams on a four-lamp setup, don't want to draw too much attention to yourself running around town.

Speaking of drawing attention, I want to reiterate that I have NEVER been stopped by law enforcement for my headlights, and I've been running E-Codes since the mid-60's.


Jim -

No doubt, the preferred long distance driving light favorite of the serious car rally crowd is the Cibie Super Oscar.  TTBOMK, nobody else makes one nearly as powerful nor optically superior.  Mount a couple of those on the top of your Eagle's bumper, use the available 100w bulbs with appropriately relay-controlled wiring, and you'll think you're driving in daylight.  BTDT2!  Available from www.cibieusa.com (http://www.cibieusa.com), which is also the same as Aardvark International or Talbotco.  Nowadays about $300 for a set of four, or $150 for the two headlamp systems.

(Actually, if you have the 4-headlamp system on your Eagle, the Cibie E-Code high beam patterns are very similar to the Oscars, just slightly less intense.)


Gus -

You're partially there!  Take a look at the photo in the link I've provided, and you'll see the difference that adding the E-Code optics to the halogen lights provides, compared to the USDOT pattern on the left.


All -

When it comes to headlights and nighttime driving, I will repeat again my mantra:  "What price SAFETY?"


FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

One of the first things I did after I got my bus was to change out the useless DOT high-beams to Neolite E-code lights.   I kept with 55W lamps to avoid having to rewire and add relays, and their improvement over the original DOT lights is significant.   Are they as good as Hella or Cibie?   No, of course not, but for only $30 each they are more than good enough for driving at sensible speeds at night.   Their cut-off and definition are not as good as my car's HID projector lights (no other lights I've experienced are), but they still put more light further down the road without dazzling oncoming drivers than any DOT headlamp ever could.   One downside was that I had to futz with them to make them fit right  -  their alignment tabs were not in the right place to exactly fit my headlamps buckets.   Like the AutoPal, Neolites are made in India, so I guess that makes them I-code?

Of course I would like some Hella or Cibie lights, but for the minimal amount of night driving I do I cannot justify spending their several hundred dollars.

John

Hella also makes e-code composite housings to fit most older sealed beam lamp buckets with other bulb replacements like H4 lamps or 9007\9004 halogens.

That is what I am planning to use on my baby, except with xenon bulbs and ballasts.  Xenon aftermarket kits have come down drastically in price over the last few years and provide a much closer color to actual daylight.  Not the blue and purple lights the rice cars are installing!!
I purchased a kit for my truck about 3 years ago and the performance has been flawless!  Animal eyes are much more visible from a much greater distance!  I would recommend a color spectrum around 5000K-6500K.

BTW e-code lenses are NOT legal in the US because most of them are not DOT approved. (not that that will stop me from having safer lighting)  but thought i should mention it.

:-)

Quote from: bioVenture on January 10, 2011, 08:17:32 PM
BTW e-code lenses are NOT legal in the US because most of them are not DOT approved. (not that that will stop me from having safer lighting)  but thought i should mention it.

Is there any true E-code headlight that is DOT approved?  Aren't E-code and DOT headlight patterns direct contradictions of each other?  Ken Masters has some different style of headlights on his Dina that say DOT on them, but I don't know that they are E-code.

At one point someone mentioned part of the reason for the DOT light pattern is to illuminate roadside signs with the excess light.  The interesting thing is that RJ showed the lighting pattern of an E-code light at his seminar at Bussin' 11 and the E-code pattern seems to send as much or more light to the side of the road.

E-code lights have never made it to the top of my list, but after my trip to Arcadia I think I will finally upgrade.  The lights seemed dimmer that I recall from my trip 4 months ago, but out west we were able to use high beams a lot at night.

I don't want this to sound like a broken record but as others have stated, check the voltage at the light. That can't be stressed enough. Mine was only getting 8 volts. I used the feed to run relays and added a 12 volt sydtem to the bus and couldn't believe the difference.

Are folks running a direct wire all the way back to the battery for the 12 volt connection to the lights?  My headlights are already relay controlled from the factory in the main electrical panel, but who knows if the wiring is really big enough?  I guess I should go out and measure the voltage to see if voltage is even an issue.

Brian, if you consider a 12V system and 4 ea 55 watt bulbs, that is 220 watts or about 18 amps (half that for a 24V system).  That is not a huge load.  

The typical bus wiring runs a very heavy cable (6-8ga?) to the front and that will carry a lot of amps.  I see no reason to run a special wire direct to the batteries.

There are three major places you get voltage drop in the headlights circuit (not considering bad connections):  headlight switch, dimmer switch, and any fuse in the system.  If a bus has breakers then they probably do not create much of a problem, but Eagles use oversize fuses with clips on each end and they are terrible after many years of service.  In the previous sentence it may seem that is dismiss bad connections.  Not the case, I just wanted to sort out component issues.  Bad connections are probably the major issue.

When you install relays, that reduces the current load on the headlight switch, dimmer switch and fuses to less than 1 amp (only has to pull in the relay coil).  That really makes a drastic difference!!!  The headlight switch and  dimmer switches could now be micro switches if you wanted, rather than the huge switchs that have to carry all of the current load for the headlights.

Jim

Everyone probably knows this but when you are doing all your measuring of voltages and such, do it with the lights attached and on...   The load will capture any voltage drop due to bad connections which won't show up if you pull the bulb to get at the terminals easy...

brian

Quote from: bevans6 on January 11, 2011, 08:18:13 AM
Everyone probably knows this but when you are doing all your measuring of voltages and such, do it with the lights attached and on...   The load will capture any voltage drop due to bad connections which won't show up if you pull the bulb to get at the terminals easy...

brian

Yes, absolutely.  And measure across the lamp, not from hot to chassis ground.  Bad grounds are probably the worse offender, rather than wire size or fuses.

Sorry, did not complete my thought in my last post (whats new? ::)).  

When you wire in relays, you use the current headlight wires to trigger the relay (activate the coil).  You then run a wire from the main power supply terminal (the one that the 6-8 ga wire runs to) to the hot side of the relays.  You will need to put a resetting breaker as close to the main power supply terminal.  That breaker should be consistent with the wire size you run to the relays.  I used a 30 amp automatic resetting breaker and 10 ga wire to supply the relays.

Jim

  Cibies are awesome. I had a set years back, you really do not need high wattage bulbs, 100 watters have a reflective range of "miles", and anyone out in front of you will hurt if your on high. They are incredibly bright.

  If you place high quality relays near the lights, and have good grounds, you wont have any voltage drop. 55/60 bulbs are more than sufficient.

  What I noticed however, was a loss of light output over the years, regardless of what wattage bulb I out in them. The problem was pitting in the glass, from the many miles of driving and sandblasting them. I was able to restore a lot of the output with some serious polishing, but the point here is that headlights, even the best on the planet, lose a great deal of output with just minor pitting. So beware buying used ones off eBay, I found cheap Sylvania halogens had higher output than my "worn" out Cibie's.

  In that regard, the Hella's may offer better value, and offer better availability out on the road. But ive never had Hella's, so I cannot comment on their performance. As stated above, the sharp cutoff of the Cibie's is remarkable, and it owes those qualities to the engineering of lens and reflector. It would be nice to see the two brands side by side.

Quote from: Chopper Scott on January 11, 2011, 05:23:10 AM
I don't want this to sound like a broken record but as others have stated, check the voltage at the light. That can't be stressed enough. Mine was only getting 8 volts. I used the feed to run relays and added a 12 volt sydtem to the bus and couldn't believe the difference.

Also checking the voltage while the light is on will be a better indicator of the condition of the circuit.  You can have good voltage in a poor circuit when no work is being done.   ;D

My 05 eagle has the large square ones like a model 15. Not bright at all. Someone gave me a p/n for some bright ones but I lost it. Anybody happen to know the number? Don't want to add more lights. Thanks!!

Okay, I finally got around to testing the voltage.  It was 25.5 at the battery and 23.5 at the left (furthest) headlight.  I did expect it to turn out to be something like that.  It certainly would be useful to reduce that loss.  However, it seems unlikely that that will make enough of a difference to make these lights acceptable. 

Len pretty well covered it all about voltage I am not a MCI person but in my Eagle bible it calls for 13.1 to 13.3 volts at the head lights most all the 24 volt head lamps I have seen are 28v if you go to NAPA you need to ask for 28V or they just look at you

good luck

Quote from: Lin on January 11, 2011, 01:54:23 PM
Okay, I finally got around to testing the voltage.  It was 25.5 at the battery and 23.5 at the left (furthest) headlight.  I did expect it to turn out to be something like that.  It certainly would be useful to reduce that loss.  However, it seems unlikely that that will make enough of a difference to make these lights acceptable. 

That's not insignificant, almost 8% loss.  I would consider anything over 0.5 volts to be too much.

I agree that an 8% loss is not insignificant and I should deal with that to.  Interestingly, I checked the voltage at the dash switch, and it too is only 23.5 volts.  However, my point is that an 8% increase in illumination is still going to be inadequate.  By the way, Hella e-code H4 7 inch rounds are available for about $35. each.

I just wanted to let people know what we finally did.  We bought the Hella E-code lamps for about $80. for the set.  They came with 12v H4 bulbs which, of course, we did not use.  Instead, we bought a couple of 24v H4's.  The installation was easy.  It only required a little widening of the hole in the pan for the lamps to fit nicely.  During the process, we cleaned up whatever contacts were in need; the grounds were marginal and the contacts on the high beam foot switch were seriously corroded.  I suggest that anyone that is losing headlight voltage to check that switch.  They are generally very old, could get wet sometimes, and they are easy to get to.  I hope we picked up a bit of voltage, but I have not checked yet.  I have not driven with the new lights, but they do a great job of lighting up my yard.  I would guess that they put out a couple of times the light of the old sealed beams.  I did not change the high beams out yet and may eventually do the same with them, but may just put some halogen sealed beams in.

I have had the 7 inch Hella's since 95.  They are superb.  I hear the Cibies are better but I can find no reason to go further.  I bought a second pair for my Winnie.  $35 dollars is a really good price.

John

Quote from: artvonne on January 11, 2011, 09:51:05 AM
  Cibies are awesome. I had a set years back, you really do not need high wattage bulbs, 100 watters have a reflective range of "miles", and anyone out in front of you will hurt if your on high. They are incredibly bright.

  If you place high quality relays near the lights, and have good grounds, you wont have any voltage drop. 55/60 bulbs are more than sufficient.

  What I noticed however, was a loss of light output over the years, regardless of what wattage bulb I out in them. The problem was pitting in the glass, from the many miles of driving and sandblasting them. I was able to restore a lot of the output with some serious polishing, but the point here is that headlights, even the best on the planet, lose a great deal of output with just minor pitting. So beware buying used ones off eBay, I found cheap Sylvania halogens had higher output than my "worn" out Cibie's.

  In that regard, the Hella's may offer better value, and offer better availability out on the road. But ive never had Hella's, so I cannot comment on their performance. As stated above, the sharp cutoff of the Cibie's is remarkable, and it owes those qualities to the engineering of lens and reflector. It would be nice to see the two brands side by side.

The light output is not linear with the voltage applied.  8% voltage loss may yield 25% loss of light output.  Your wiring should drop less than .5 volts and that is easily done so don't askert. ;D

John

Quote from: Len Silva on January 11, 2011, 04:04:17 PM

Quote from: Lin on January 11, 2011, 01:54:23 PM
Okay, I finally got around to testing the voltage.  It was 25.5 at the battery and 23.5 at the left (furthest) headlight.  I did expect it to turn out to be something like that.  It certainly would be useful to reduce that loss.  However, it seems unlikely that that will make enough of a difference to make these lights acceptable. 

That's not insignificant, almost 8% loss.  I would consider anything over 0.5 volts to be too much.

John,

I know that there is likely to be voltage losses.  The grounds and the dimmer switch contacts were so bad that I would be surprised if I did not pick up some of the loss there.  Actually, I just might replace the dimmer switch itself.  Even though it still works, I could imagine the the insides are compromised.  It would seem that many years of use by drivers with wet or snow covered boots would make those switches easy victims of corrosion.  However in the end, although I know that this might run against the perfectionist grain, the goal here is to have adequate lighting.  If it is necessary to rewire to get there, then that is what must be done.  If taking care of the easy to reach bad spots and putting better lights in place of the old ones works, I see no reason not to solve the problem that way.  Bus maintenance is time-intensive and costly enough even with compromise. 

Lin,

I understand completely and for a very good reason, I had all those thoughts and tried all those fixes.  Your posture was mine and while I was told to just install the new relay and be done with it the irresistible challenge was in the prophecy that I would fail.  I did and I am a pretty resourceful guy, thank you very much.  I think you will end up where I am after many tries if you continue to pursue the lighting issue.  I hope you don't think I am being pushy with this advice and not giving you space.  Farthest thing from my mind and I want you to have your own adventure to what ever extent individualism takes you.  Me?  All I ever was concerned with was results. As a fellow Knut and a friend I am obligated to share whatever info I think you might find useful.  Friends don't let friends drive drunk sorta thing.  I can, however be educated.

If the insides of the dimmer switch are compromised then they will present a voltage drop and that is a easy test.  After I replaced my dimmer switch I found that the new one had pretty much the same voltage drop.  In my adventure I finally figured out that all those little crimp connections are not sealed and the wire corrodes slowly and deteriorates the "quality" of the electrical connection while the mechanical connection remains good.  There are a ton of those crimp connections and the more current you ask them to carry the faster they deteriorate and one of the reasons is they get warm or hot where they aren't making a perfect connection and the heat expedites the erosion of the quality of the connection.  I determined that the wire alone was undersized and the circuit would still be unsat if all the components were perfect.  Disappointing!

On some cars I started out with 2 volts lost.  When I ran a +12 volt wire to the filament and just touched the bulb contact while the bulb was on the bulb literally exploded with new light.  With that firmly fixed in my mind I was hell bent on "getting the bugs out".  I used a digital voltmeter even way back then and I could see when I picked up a fraction of a volt.  When I was done soldering connectors and replacing connectors and replacing the L relay and cleaning fuse contacts till I was blue I figured it out.  Designed to be inadequate.  Crap!

Measure across every wire run and component and determine what you will gain from resolving their contribution to the issue of final voltage drop across the filament.  Where the rubber meets the road.  It would benefit all if you documented all the "bad" components and gave a before and after.  Please do that for everyone.

I replaced my headlight foot dimmer cause it was getting difficult to push and on occasion it would stick in.  Was probably 25 years old and very tired and dry and corroded.  The new one, now ten years old is still working fine.  had the same drop when I put it in as did the old one.

I am not now, nor have I ever been a perfectionist.  I shoot for 110% but I am happy with 80% from a reasonable effort.  There is a problem with adequate and that is "good enuf is the enemy of better".  Still, I get your point.

Every time I satisfy myself with a compromise it comes back to bite.  Any more, I can't do very many things as well as I know they should be done so I ain't preaching to you....just say'n.

I have concluded that all headlight circuits have at least a volt of drop designed in and that's almost 10% loss.  For this reason and others I  have never considered using the stock system.  BUT....the stock system is only deficient in terms of current handling capability.  Using the stock system as a "signal" voltage of a small 30 amp relay to drive the lights....perfect and entirely usable.  Not saying that there aren't some out there that are suitable but only in my sheltered life I ain't found any.


Good luck on your project Lin.  Wish I was there to hold the flashlight for ya.  Don't forget...we want to know every detail.  Please.

John

John,

I have no doubt that everything you say is correct.  Changing the system to include a nice, new, stout wire run through a relay appears to be the best way to go.  If when I test the new lights on the road I find them inadequate, the relay would have to be the next step.  However, if they light up the road enough, I might be prone to put further improvement way down the list.

On-topic, but not in a bus...

I recently (last month or two) had the experience of helping a friend with headlights on his 2003 Subaru Impreza WRX.  He had aftermarket lights that came with a new wiring harness that attached directly to the battery on the car.  He should have had every expectation that the included wiring harness was designed for the loads the lamps would create.

What I found after a few minutes was terrifying...

He had 55Watt H7 low-beam bulbs, and 65Watt H9 high-beam bulbs.  Total for one side (both low and high beams on) is 120Watts.  Each fixture (passenger and driver side) had a relay that allowed for the switching of the battery power directly to the fixture, and a second DPDT relay on the passenger side for enabling the high-beam.  This was all powered from a single 18Ga wire to the battery!!!!  When I measured the voltage drop at the bulbs (actually pulling the fixture out and putting the probes on the bulb leads), I found that the WIRES were dropping about 30% of the power to the headlights (about 8Volts from a 12Volt supply got to the bulbs... I'm still amazed that the setup didn't catch fire).  It also was powered from a single 15 amp fuse ( [65 + 55 + 65 + 55 = 240Watts] 240Watts/12Volts = 20Amps!!!)

I ended up building him a completely new harness with 10Ga wire from the battery and 12Ga wire to each independent bulb, and each side got its own 20Amp fuse (BTW it wasn't "cheap", I spent at least $100 on his setup).  Voltage drop now is less than 1%, and the comment is that it's like driving with a completely different set of headlights.  The maximum rule of thumb design drop for non-critical circuits (dome light, fan, etc... convenience features?) is 5%.  The maximum rule of thumb design drop for engine-compartment circuits and critical loads (like headlights, engine computers, wipers, etc... things that keep you safely operating the vehicle?) is 1%.  Non-critical loads run through the engine compartement are tighter tolerance because they are exposed to higher temperatures and the rating of the insulation becomes an issue with high-draw self-heating circuits.

Moral of this story, take a look at the voltage first, then take a look at the causes/problems - you may be suprised at what you find.  Don't just assume that the circuit is build right (even from the factory).

• Relay contacts have voltage drops (they are not perfect conductors, good manufacturers publish this info).
• Fuses have voltage drops (they aren't perfect either, that's why they can "blow")
• When possible, it is preferrable to use a return ground to battery, not the chassis - the chassis is an unpredictable conductor
• OEM builds for cheap/shippable, and they're insured for the build quality.  If you are going to mess with the wiring, you are directly responsible for the performance afterwards.  Overbuild it by %20, make the bulb the weak point so nothing starves it (them).  For a 65Watt bulb design for 1% drop with a ~80Watt load...

-Tim

BTW, the aftermarket system was from France - and he told me a joke once I showed him the math: "In Heaven - the Germans make the cars, the French do the cooking, and the English are the Police.  In Hell - the French make the cars, the English do the cooking, and the Germans are the Police."  First-hand I agree with that :) -T

My batteries are way back just in front of the engine.  If I run wires from the batteries to a relay at the front for the headlights will I have voltage drop from running the wires a good 30 feet or so?

Would a continuous duty solonoid be better than a relay for this?

I wanted relays when installing my Jakes.  The only 24v continuous duty relays I could find around were solenoid relays.  Considering their size and power capacity, they could be considered overkill, but that's what was available.  Any type of relay that can handle the DC volage, the amperage, and is designed for continuous use will work.

Quote from: belfert on March 09, 2011, 02:47:18 PM
My batteries are way back just in front of the engine.  If I run wires from the batteries to a relay at the front for the headlights will I have voltage drop from running the wires a good 30 feet or so?

Would a continuous duty solonoid be better than a relay for this?

Belfert,

You have lights, heating/defrost blowers, fog lights and whatever else you have up front.  You should have a light "buss" run all the way to the front.  You have to figure your total current draw and decide if #4 or 0 or 00 is needed.  These wire sizes have a spec of X ohms per 1,000 feet.  You need to break that number down to 40 feet and figure the voltage drop using ohm's law....simple division and multiplication.  OR WE COULD ASK SEAN.  I can help with this if need be and be happy to do it.  Let me know.    It isn't as big a deal as it might seem at this point.  You first need to figure the "load" in amps by adding all the loads.  amps = watts divided by the volts.  To start you off.  There should be a fuse panel up there and that panel should have a feed from the bats.  If you put an ammeter in series with that wire and turn "everything" on that will be the amps for the full load.....unless your voltage drops a lot.  Then we can add the amps your new lights draw, add that and have a total load.
Like I said, Sean is your best bet.

John

Quote from: Tim Strommen on March 09, 2011, 12:12:18 PM
On-topic, but not in a bus...

I recently (last month or two) had the experience of helping a friend with headlights on his 2003 Subaru Impreza WRX.  He had aftermarket lights that came with a new wiring harness that attached directly to the battery on the car.  He should have had every expectation that the included wiring harness was designed for the loads the lamps would create.

What I found after a few minutes was terrifying...

He had 55Watt H7 low-beam bulbs, and 65Watt H9 high-beam bulbs.  Total for one side (both low and high beams on) is 120Watts.  Each fixture (passenger and driver side) had a relay that allowed for the switching of the battery power directly to the fixture, and a second DPDT relay on the passenger side for enabling the high-beam.  This was all powered from a single 18Ga wire to the battery!!!!  When I measured the voltage drop at the bulbs (actually pulling the fixture out and putting the probes on the bulb leads), I found that the WIRES were dropping about 30% of the power to the headlights (about 8Volts from a 12Volt supply got to the bulbs... I'm still amazed that the setup didn't catch fire).  It also was powered from a single 15 amp fuse ( [65 + 55 + 65 + 55 = 240Watts] 240Watts/12Volts = 20Amps!!!)

I ended up building him a completely new harness with 10Ga wire from the battery and 12Ga wire to each independent bulb, and each side got its own 20Amp fuse (BTW it wasn't "cheap", I spent at least $100 on his setup).  Voltage drop now is less than 1%, and the comment is that it's like driving with a completely different set of headlights.  The maximum rule of thumb design drop for non-critical circuits (dome light, fan, etc... convenience features?) is 5%.  The maximum rule of thumb design drop for engine-compartment circuits and critical loads (like headlights, engine computers, wipers, etc... things that keep you safely operating the vehicle?) is 1%.  Non-critical loads run through the engine compartement are tighter tolerance because they are exposed to higher temperatures and the rating of the insulation becomes an issue with high-draw self-heating circuits.

Moral of this story, take a look at the voltage first, then take a look at the causes/problems - you may be suprised at what you find.  Don't just assume that the circuit is build right (even from the factory).

• Relay contacts have voltage drops (they are not perfect conductors, good manufacturers publish this info).
• Fuses have voltage drops (they aren't perfect either, that's why they can "blow")
• When possible, it is preferrable to use a return ground to battery, not the chassis - the chassis is an unpredictable conductor
• OEM builds for cheap/shippable, and they're insured for the build quality.  If you are going to mess with the wiring, you are directly responsible for the performance afterwards.  Overbuild it by %20, make the bulb the weak point so nothing starves it (them).  For a 65Watt bulb design for 1% drop with a ~80Watt load...

-Tim

BTW, the aftermarket system was from France - and he told me a joke once I showed him the math: "In Heaven - the Germans make the cars, the French do the cooking, and the English are the Police.  In Hell - the French make the cars, the English do the cooking, and the Germans are the Police."  First-hand I agree with that :) -T

That is my exact experience after many years.  I never found a stock system that wasn't dropping 10 to 20 %.  And that included my 70 Datsun Z car with the "gold plated connectors" and big wires. 

Thank you for posting in detail.  Good read.

John

Quote from: belfert on March 09, 2011, 02:47:18 PM...My batteries are way back just in front of the engine.  If I run wires from the batteries to a relay at the front for the headlights will I have voltage drop from running the wires a good 30 feet or so?...

Short answer, "yes".  The point you want to watch for though is not "if" but "how much".

Some popular Ohms/Foot for copper pulled from Basic Car Audio Electronics (http://www.bcae1.com):

0000 (4/0) = 0.00004961
000 (3/0) = 0.00006250
00 (2/0) = 0.00007875
0 (1/0) = 0.00009921
2 = 0.00015749
4 = 0.00025000
8 = 0.00062996
10 = 0.00100000
12 = 0.00158740
14 = 0.00251983
16 = 0.00399998
18 = 0.00634956


An example of how to use this:

If you have a 100Watt CRITICAL load you want to power with a 12Volt system, and your load is 50 feet from the battery, here's how you'd work it out.

100Watts / 12Volts = 8.3Amps

Remember Critical load: 1% voltage drop max!!, Non-Critical load: 5% voltage drop max.

12Volt-system * 1% (0.01) = 0.12Volts max voltage drop

Maximum resistance the wire can have:

0.12Volts / 8.3Amps = 0.0144578313253012Ohms <-- this is the value where you would SUBTRACT the resistance of the fuse and the relay/solenoid contacts.

Add some design margin (20%):

0.0144578313253012Ohms * 0.8 = 0.011566265060241Ohms

Divide the allowable resitance by the length (I'll multiply the length by "two" first to account for a ground return wire):

0.011566265060241Ohms / ( 50Ft * 2 ) = 0.0001156626506024096Ohms-per-foot maximum

Now you look at the table above to see which wire has this value or less and that's your "okay" mark - thicker is okay, but more expensive and takes more space/weight, and may be harder to handle and terminate (connect to).

I see that a 0Ga (1/0) wire would be suitable for this load at <1% voltage drop from the wires (this example DOES NOT account for switching via relay, or a fuse!!).

0Ga = 0.00009921Ohms-per-foot
Max = 0.0001156626506024096Ohms-Per-Foot MAX

0Ga resistance is lower than Max resistance = OK


As always, if you feel this is out of your league, don't do it and if possible seek help from an experienced hand.

Best,


-T

Quote from: bioVenture on January 10, 2011, 08:17:32 PM...That is what I am planning to use on my baby, except with xenon bulbs and ballasts.  Xenon aftermarket kits have come down drastically in price over the last few years and provide a much closer color to actual daylight.  Not the blue and purple lights the rice cars are installing!!  I purchased a kit for my truck about 3 years ago and the performance has been flawless!  Animal eyes are much more visible from a much greater distance!  I would recommend a color spectrum around 5000K-6500K...

First it should be said that putting "retrofit HIDs" in a halogen fixture is definitely not legal.  The fixture housing is marked with the bulb type that the fixture was certified with (for example "H4").  If you install a bulb that is not "H4" in that fixture, the certification and beam compliance is invalid.  I don't advocate that this be done.

That said, I have done the same thing that bioVenture has done, and have installed H4-biXenon retrofits in my Cibie's on my pickup, but with extreme caution, research, and tweaking.  I disagree with the "color temperature" suggestion that bioventure gave - I don't recommend 5000K-6500K light for night-time headlights, but I agree that the super-blue and purple HIDs are stupid.  At night when the average light availability is lower, your eyes naturally shift the white-point to a greener shade, and become more sensitive to blue light (more of which can cause crippling glare in older drivers).  This is why OEM factory HID fixtures use a 4100Kelvin bulb, and why putting out 6500Kelvin light like we get during the day is not as good an idea as the marketing people may advertise.  Incidentally, the warmer color-temperature bulbs also put out more light.  I also went through the trouble of simulating the bulb and fixture which showed the HID retrofit needed some modifications, then I had the ACTUAL output independently verified by an optical lab to ensure the HID lamp's distribution matched the requirements for E-code HIDs.  A lot of extra work, and the combination is still not "legal" per-say, but a nice CYA if someone starts blaming me for something... (I should be able to cut down the "he did this with wreckless abandon!!" comments from the other lawyer).

-T

Tim,

I found that the HID bulbs did not focus like a halogen.  My Hellas that I am in love with were terrible and would have ruined the oncoming traffic.  I took them out after the first night of testing.  I have heard the same tale from others.  If you can get a fixture for HID E speck you will be amazed at the light.  Anybody want to buy some almost never used except one night HIDs?  Cheap.

John

Quote from: JohnEd on March 10, 2011, 01:21:03 AM...I found that the HID bulbs did not focus like a halogen.  My Hellas that I am in love with were terrible and would have ruined the oncoming traffic... ...I have heard the same tale from others...

This is slightly off-point...

Yes, I found that the kit manufacturer had incorrectly lined up the electrodes to the filament line on the H4 kit I have, which required re-seating the lamp in the base (the arc should be lined up with the filament as it curves upwards from the electrodes).  The next problem was the assembly itself - the bulb is designed to slide from the forward-most "shielded" position (low-beam) to an unrestricted-output position in the rear-most filament position (high-beam) using a solenoid.  I found that the shield was not correctly clocked (they had both sides level, the passenger-side edge should be higher by 15degrees!!), and the bulb wasn't hard restrained so it would shimmer if the assembly was vibrated (like in normal use on the road).  I had to replace the metal shielding with a cast ceramic shield with a sliding end-piece attached to the tip of the bulb to keep it aligned.  Then I had to dip the tip of the bulb in a black paint to obtain the front of bulb light blockage.

Once I did all of that, I still needed to sprinkle the glossy black ceramic shield with flat black bulb dip to knock down the light output to ECE standards.  Then I had is tested (passed). Note that the pattern was what I had tested - ECE requires HIDs to be used with an automatic headlight leveling system, which I do not have.

I have seen and felt (ouch) poor HID conversions many with the too-cool >=6000K bulbs that are just, well just awful...  It's even noticable that the light output isn't anywhere near what it should be (regular Halogens are often actually brighter).  Before I settled on the Cibies, I had run the Hella DOT/ECE fixtures - my opinion was that they were well intentioned but an optical disater.  I think they were a Marketing ploy to get DOT compliant fixtures with something related to ECE on them to sell them as ECE equivalent... (they were not).

By far the worst HID conversions I've seen are the ones on Fords, Dodges, and Chevy's with 9007 or equivalent bulbs, which instead of relying on a metalic light shield to control light just relies on the 3mm difference from low to high beam as well as a minor output wattage (45W low, 65W high).
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi753.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx174%2FLonelyDodger%2F9007_BULB.jpg&hash=78e354c5024e075aa427f6f04d37cb2ee369d01d)
HIDs in these fixtures basically output both high and low at the same time, or on the "biXenon" versions they put out LOW+HIGH or just HIGH-out-of-focus and not pointing on the road at all.

-T

I did some research on Hella vs Cibie.  Most of the forum postings out on the Internet seem to recommend Cibie over Hella.  They also all said that Hella would be better than DOT headlights.

I think I might spend twice as much and get the Cibie lights instead of the Hella lights I was planning to get.

I agree with the results of your research having done the following progression on headlights over the years on my truck (6"x8" rectangle):

Osram Sealed-Beam --> Sylvania Halogen-Capsule-Sealed-Beam --> H4 Hella DOT/ECE --> H4 Cibie --> HID Cibie

I personally recommend that if people can afford it, the upgrade path should skip the middle two steps between Sealed-Beam and H4 Cibie, and if you can do 24Volts to the bulbs (better for voltage drop!!), use Osram "TruckStar" 24V-H4 bulbs not the Hella 24V-H4 bulbs.  And again for clarity, I don't recommend the HID path...

-Tim

Tim,

Yours are some informative and valuable posts.  I have made copies for my RV  elect folder.  Thank you very much for your effort and sharing.

I finally got around to looking into the Cibie vs Hella issue "again" after all these many years.  Well things have changed and I should have known.  The 7 inch Cibie that does the trick is model number HCR and it is E code.  It has a lens pattern similar to the legendary, in my circle of old, Marshals.  That's the lens that has the converging long vert lines in the center of the lens that seems "cat eyes like" and has a razor horizontal cut-off on low beam.  I have never used the Cibies but I can imagine they are stellar.

The Hella lights for sale on Amazon and such for $34 ARE NOT the high performing lights I was referring to.  Those on the amazon are a clear lens with the reflector having the focusing element engraved in wide flat panels of the reflector.  That might be an improvement but it won't come close to the Cibies, I strongly suspect.  The "real" Hellas are number WO 133 1615 927.  In the catalog these lights are labeled "FOR OFF_ROAD USE ONLY" just as mine were way back when.  The catalog then goes on to list that model for all the Porsche s, Z cars, etc, high performance sports cars of the day.  That model sells for something like $68 each and not the $34  mentioned.  I think the Hellas don't have the great price advantage we thought they did.  Also, they are not street legal but they are over looked by law enforcement.  Cops can tell at a glance or the smart ones can and they have done so with mine but only smiled when mentioning it.

The advantages of the Hella in performance are that they produce a wide and flat low beam but at the edge of the right side of the pavement there is a "up-swept" beam that illuminates people and game very well and very early.  I bought them way back when for that exact feature.  They are also sold in singles.  They are marginally cheaper.  The Cibie is the storied performer but I am starting to have second thoughts about their performance edge over the off-road Hella.  Tim seems to point out that the stock Hella bulb is not the hot performer and I suspect that the standard issue Cibie comes with a better performing bulb.  I suspect that neither comes with the highest performing Osram item. (thank you, Tim).  My Hellas didn't come with a bulb and I have purchased 6 of the critters and never looked back.  I think the Cibies include a high performance bulb and that is maybe as much as $40 worth buried in the price....if not?

You guys have an enviable choice in that both are winners as far as I can see.  Double "antandrey" intended.

Thanks again Tim,

John

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2011, 08:36:02 AM
  My Hellas didn't come with a bulb and I have purchased 6 of the critters and never looked back.  I think the Cibies include a high performance bulb and that is maybe as much as $40 worth buried in the price....if not?

John

  Interesting observation. IIRC the ones we purchased "many moons ago" came with bulbs, and if the Hellas do not, that could create quite a cost differential favoring the Cibie, as long as thats the particular bulb you need or want. In our case we wanted to blind everyone and put the 55/60's in the box for spares and bought 70/100's. Eventually you fall back to the 55/60 as those lamps with 100 watts on high are simply far to bright and I can see why they are illegal. IIRC, 100 watts is even illegal in Europe for road use. Seriously, road signs 1/2 a mile away are almost to bright to look at from the reflected light.

  Also, its interesting you note the difference in Hella lamps. If your going to put in good lights, you want the illegal ones. As long as they are adjusted properly (down) and have "normal" wattage bulbs, and you are a couteous and conscientious driver, no one will ever question them. Fail to drop them at a cop at night and he may start looking. Blind him 100 watts on high and he might just bust them out with his club.

Quote from: Tim Strommen on March 10, 2011, 10:13:59 PM
I personally recommend that if people can afford it, the upgrade path should skip the middle two steps between Sealed-Beam and H4 Cibie, and if you can do 24Volts to the bulbs (better for voltage drop!!), use Osram "TruckStar" 24V-H4 bulbs not the Hella 24V-H4 bulbs.  And again for clarity, I don't recommend the HID path...

My headlights and all of my external lighting is 12 volt from the factory.  Are you recommending 24 volt headlights since I can certainly run 24 volts to them?

The Truckstar bulbs are mostly sold in Europe.  I found a US supplier, but I can get them shipped from the UK for less.

Brian -

Since you're coach came with all 12V external lighting, just stick to the stock 12V Cibie's and you'll be good to go.

Biggest advantage of 12V over 24V in this application?

If one burns out on you, you can easily pick up a replacement bulb at any auto parts place, even WalMart.  No having to scrounge around trying to find 24V bulbs at oh dark thirty in the rain!

Using relays is still a good idea, as has been suggested.  Make sure they've got a good ground, too!

Take "before and after" pics for us, like the fellow did on that Jeep forum link I posted way back on page one of this thread! 

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

Art,

I agree with all you said.  I didn't learn until recently that 70/100 were available.  They come from the motorcycle arena where those guys only used to get one light, hence it was one that was a sub for two and significantly higher wattage...brightness.  Even had I known of them I would not have installed them.  I installed driving lights and they, curiously, are legal.

But here was a plan that I have always nurtured and never done.  The low beams being so finely focused and with the distinct cutoff could use higher wattage low beams.  Such as a 60/70 and I think one might get away with that.  In all seriousness, the Cibie or Hella with legal bulbs will perform so excitingly well that a bigger bulb just won't seem needed in any respect.

Whether you upgrade or not get the relays installed first as you will have to do that anyway and, in the interim, you will boost the performance of tungsten bulbs significantly.

John

I thought about the issues of getting 24 volt bulbs on the road, but I would buy a spare set of bulbs.  One reason 24 volt is attractive is because I would likely need to run the wire 30 or 35 feet back to my batteries.  I figure 12 volt might require 8 AWG and 24 volt would require substantially smaller wire.

12 volts probably makes more sense just because eveyone is used to having 12 volt headlights on most vehicles.  Daniel Stern has suggested higher wattage bulbs because the reflectors aren't that big on a 6.5"x4" light.

You may not have to run new wires all the way back to the batteries.  I don't know about your bus but, on the 4104 there is a 1 ga. cable from the batteries to the main bus in the drivers compartment.  That should be adequate for the load.  The problem with that bus is that they used 14 ga. wiring from that point through the light switch, dimmer, etc. to the lights, which may not be big enough.

With the headlights on, check the voltage at the front power bus and compare it to the voltage at the batteries and at the headlights.  That should tell you where the voltage drop is.  There is no reason to correct it all the way back to the batteries if you don't have to.  You should probably check it with everything that runs off that bus powered up.  The headlights, markers, defroster blowers etc..

Quote from: Len Silva on March 11, 2011, 11:09:04 AM

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 10:57:09 AM...One reason 24 volt is attractive is because I would likely need to run the wire 30 or 35 feet back to my batteries.  I figure 12 volt might require 8 AWG and 24 volt would require substantially smaller wire...

You may not have to run new wires all the way back to the batteries.  I don't know about your bus but, on the 4104 there is a 1 ga. cable from the batteries to the main bus in the drivers compartment.  That should be adequate for the load...

I my first pass (hobo conversion), I did rip out all of the electrical - I'm not suggesting that everyone do that, it's expensive and can be complicated, and there can be real electrical engineering involved.  My wiring was a mess due to 15+ years of "git 'er done" maintenance at LTD in Oregon.  Belfert's point is valid - the equation for Watts is Volts x Amps = Watts.  This means if you are running a 55Watt bulb at 12Volts, you draw roughly 4.6Amps - the same wattage bulb at 24Volts only pulls 2.3Amps.  If you recall my wire post a few post back the voltage drop on a circuit is directly related to the amount of current (Amps) you are pulling over that wire.  Less Amps, means less drop - and you can get away with a smaller wire, or use the same size wire and have roughly double the POWER capacity.

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 09:26:24 AM...Are you recommending 24 volt headlights since I can certainly run 24 volts to them?...

So I guess to answer your question Belfert, in my experience/opinion - if I'm going to have to replace or re-wire something (like someone used too small a wire for your headlights), I would want to find a way to really fix that so that I never have to touch that problem again (except to change bulbs, or replace a shattered housing).  I'd put in Cibie's, do it at 24V with TruckStar (better that the Hella since they don't coil a coil, so they keep better focus), install relays for the headlights (both high and low-beam), and pull wire to the batteries (both supply and ground) - then make sure all of my connections are both mechanically and water-tight.  The more of this you can do with sound mind and with the assurance the existing equipment or wire or placements are suitable, the better (Waste: Reduce-Reuse-Recycle).

The big reason I got away from 12Volt chassis stuff was the center tap issue.  My Vanner was dying, and it was going to cost me as much to swap out 12Volt for 24Volt parts as it was to replace or repair the Vanner.  One less expensive thing to worry about made that choice easy.  Since my bus was originally a transit, the interior fluorescent lights and blowers were 24Volts, and a 24Volt bus was pulled to the driver's compartment for distribution already.  That just meant I had to pull out the extra 12Volt stuff and move the lighting circuits over to the other supply wire.

My experience is probably unique compared to those of you with highway coaches...


-Tim

If you are starting from scratch keep in mind your history....never found a stock system that didn't drop 10%....  If it were me I would install really thin wire that could handle only a couple amps and make my headlight system from that but only right up to the headlight.  Use that voltage to power my little cube 30 amp relays to actually power the filaments.  That's what you do when you upgrade you tired and resistive stock system to power the bulbs with relays.

John

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2011, 04:08:44 PM
If you are starting from scratch keep in mind your history....never found a stock system that didn't drop 10%....  If it were me I would install really thin wire that could handle only a couple amps and make my headlight system from that but only right up to the headlight.  Use that voltage to power my little cube 30 amp relays to actually power the filaments.  That's what you do when you upgrade you tired and resistive stock system to power the bulbs with relays...

And lest we forget - I've heard horror stories with MCI using really complicated 24Volt-feed dual 12Volt lamps with some resistor thing in there in case one bulb blows...  In my opinion, if it takes a paragraph to expain a DC lamp circuit - it's too darn complicated :).  Simple is good, it's easy to troubleshoot...

-Tim

The 12 volt feed for the entire bus is a pretty small wire coming off the Vanner equalizer in the battery compartment.  It doesn't seem like a real big wire to supply all 12 volt needs in the bus although there isn't much 12 volt other than exterior lighting and the DDEC.

I will start up the bus tomorrow and doing some checking on voltages with all the lights on.  Maybe I can get by without any wiring changes.

I am already planning on relays.  I just need to find a power source with little or no voltage drop for the power to the relays.  Relays don't help if you don't have good power to start with.  My bus is a 1995 and I'm pretty sure the stock system hasn't been modified.  It already had 12 volt headlights from the factory.

I've driven a lot of miles at night in this bus over the past four years and I never thought the headlights were that bad until my recent trip to Florida.  The headlights really seemed to suck on that trip.  I think it might be because going out west on I80 I used the high beams a lot.  I've decided I need to try ECE headlights.

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 04:24:19 PM...Relays don't help if you don't have good power to start with...

Ah, but they are nice as service throw-aways.  You can replace a relay in a panel easier than you can replace a dash or column switch that you have to pull a bunch of stuff out of the way to get to.  It's easier to fit a switch in a dash to drive a 40mA (0.04Amp) relay coil, than it is to fit a 30Amp relay with high and low beam circuits.  There is a valid argument for relays.

-Tim

Dina already uses relays for pretty much all of the lighting in my bus including the headlights.  They probably didn't want to run all the power through the switches on the dash.

There is about 8 feet of wire from the relay to the left headlight and I'm not convinced the wire is big enough to eliminate voltage drop.  I am going to measure the voltage with the lights on tomorrow and see if I need to add relays close to the lights.

Brian -

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 04:44:27 PM
Dina already uses relays for pretty much all of the lighting in my bus including the headlights.

Look at that - we've been suggesting relays, and the factory beat us to it!

Based on that, take a look at the feed wire from the electrical panel buss to the headlamp relay.  If it's a 10 or 12 ga, it's probably sufficient as a feed for the Cibies.  (Tim - am I close here?)

You mentioned that there's about eight feet of wire to the left headlamp - about how many to the RH one?  IIRC, you've got to utilize the longest run for voltage drop calculations.

Refresh my memory - does your Dina have four headlamps, two per side (one low/high, one high), or just two lamps, one per side?

Glad to see that you're researching this to "do it right!" 

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

Dina uses two headlights per side.  There is at minimum 7 more feet of wire over to the right headlight.  I do not intend to replace the high beams since they provide enough light when they can be used and they aren't used all that much anyhow.

I'm still not 100% sure what bulbs to use.  Daniel Stern is recommending Osram 70/65W bulbs that sell for $22 each since I have relays and the reflectors aren't that big.  Others are recommending the Osram Night Breaker Plus bulbs that are new and are 60/55W.  I can buy a pair for Night Breakers for what one 70/65W bulb costs.  There aren't many good H4 bulbs over 60/55W because Europe only allows up to 55W.  I am leaning towards the Night Breaker Plus bulbs based on the good reviews.

I only want to do this once rather than the all too common stories of upgrading headlights just a little at a time and ending up spending way more money than just getting the good headlights to start with.

Brian -

Sylvania is the American division of Osram GmbH, Germany.

Thus, you can walk into any O'Reilly's and pick up a replacement Sylvania H4 bulb for all of $6.99.  Maybe a buck less at WalMart.  Same specs as the Night Breaker at 55/60W.

With the rectangular lights you've got, I really don't think you'd see any real difference in the extra 10W bulb's output, especially at 3x the price.

And if you only want to do this once, then buy the high beam units also and do it right the first time.

You won't regret it.  BTDT

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

My rigs have 2 headlights and 2 fog lights, both 7" rounds from factory. I have had DinahMoe since 1996 and the lights seemed adequit both hi and low. High beam was and is great.

Now that i am in my 50's i really notice the eye want more light working and driving. Highbeam is not my problem its the low beam crappy pattern. Replacing the regular lights with new stock makes a  difference.

I too hung on RJ's inspection/headlight discussion at Arcadia and i even requested a card and wrote the info on it. (Daniel Stern and Cibie's) When it warms it is on my list. What i did do before heading south was decline my fog lights to make them more driving lights. They worked great but even tho i angled them down and way to the right i would get a flash from oncoming on 2 lanes. the fogs are on or off no hi low and not sure but think they are on hi. anyway it is the patern that makes the difference.

Quote from: RJ on March 11, 2011, 05:53:05 PM
Brian -

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 04:44:27 PM
Dina already uses relays for pretty much all of the lighting in my bus including the headlights.

Look at that - we've been suggesting relays, and the factory beat us to it!

;)

That isn't a win for the factory.  He said the wires to the lights is too small so the stock "system" isn't good as is.

No matter what is in there, before you install relays or whatever, you must measure the voltage "AT" the bulb to determine success.  Remember,  no more than 1% drop.

John

Quote from: belfert on March 11, 2011, 08:38:51 PM
Dina uses two headlights per side.  There is at minimum 7 more feet of wire over to the right headlight.  I do not intend to replace the high beams since they provide enough light when they can be used and they aren't used all that much anyhow.

I'm still not 100% sure what bulbs to use.  Daniel Stern is recommending Osram 70/65W bulbs that sell for $22 each since I have relays and the reflectors aren't that big.  Others are recommending the Osram Night Breaker Plus bulbs that are new and are 60/55W.  I can buy a pair for Night Breakers for what one 70/65W bulb costs.  There aren't many good H4 bulbs over 60/55W because Europe only allows up to 55W.  I am leaning towards the Night Breaker Plus bulbs based on the good reviews.

I would tend to take Daniel Stern's advice on just about anything related to lighting.  Whatever his flaws....stupid ain't one of them.

2 cents,


John

I went out to the bus today and measured voltages with all lights on.  All voltages measured with engine at idle.  Increasing the engine RPM didn't seem to change voltages.

Voltage at low beam headlight: 12.4 volts (Measured at left light.  Probably worse at right light)
12 volt voltage at front electrical panel: 13.2 volts
12 volt voltage at Vanner in rear: 13.7 volts
24 volt voltage at front electrical panel: 27.0 volts
24 volt voltage at batteries: 27.2 volts

Is my voltage at the batteries high enough?  Shouldn't it be a bit more than 27.2?

Obviously my voltage at the headlights is really bad.  I'm also dropping quite a bit on the 12 volt side at the front electrical panel.  The wire that runs all 12 volt power from the Vanner to the front is only like 6 AWG so that is probably why I am losing half a volt.

I need to install relays at the headlights for sure.  The factory relays on the front electrical panel aren't cutting it.  I will probably run my headlight power all the way from the battery to get good power.  I will need 8 or 10 AWG wire to deliver the nearly 24 amps needed at high beam with no voltage loss.

Belfert,

Use that formula for computing wire gauge requirements.....6AWG might be enuf. ????  Consider just adding a wire to the 6AWG in parallel to achieve the desired voltage drop.

I would prefer to increase the wire size/connectors/terminal posts  whatever, and correct the loss in the 12 volts running to the front panel.  Use the panel for the 12 volts that power the lights through the new relays.  I would want to be getting maximum 12 volts to everything being powered.

You aren't having problems with the formulas and logic for computing the wire size are you.  I think that is probably simple for you but I can't be sure.  I will run the numbers for you if need be.

John

I think trying to replace the main 12 volt feed from the rear to the front electrical panel would be a nightmare.  The electrical panel is up over the driver's head.  All of the wires pass through a channel on the inside of the windshield pillar that is full.  It would be easier just to run new wires to the headlights.

I'm not really sure what the ideal voltage drop is.  Some say 2%.  2% of 13.7 volts at the Vanner is .274 volts.  For my 27.2 volts at the battery that would be .544 volts.  Currently, my 24 volt drop is only .2 volts so I am good there.  My 12 volt drop is .5 so that is probably too much.

Daniel Stern's site says the Europeans consider full voltage for headlights to be 13.2 volts.  I am well below that as it sits.

The size of wire required to handle 13.7 volts at 22 amps over 30 feet is huge!  I would need 2 AWG to keep loss to 2%.

I would give a lot of consideration to using the body for the return.  With good conections it should be a perfect zero drop. Do you know how to test that theory?

You look to have this thing on a down hill drag....good work.

John