well I started to remove that primary interior wall on my MC7 today, I took some photos of the process and thought I would share with you some of the things I did. (just in case yer doing a conversion yourself and haven't a clue. like me)
some of the rivits were your standard aluminum rivet that you just drill the head off and poof yer done. HOWEVER, many if not most have a hard steel pin in the middle and it is way to hard to drill them or even try to chisel them all off. so here is what i did.this is a photo of the rivet
then i got a pin punch, a hammer and a chisel.you can see it is a 3/32 pin punch. I first used the hammer to drive the pin on the rivet flush then used the pin punch to drive the pin thru the rivet.
Then I used the chisel and hammer to remove the head of the rivet.
I also drilled a few off after the pin was driven out but well that took to long being there is so many of these dang things
then there was the vent on the wall. there was 3 screws on the top, one on the right rear and 4 on the front lip at the floor. and it is glued to the floor with some very hard clay type gummy stuff. a screwdrive and hammer on the lower edge and it came lose rather nicely.
after getting the vent off you can get to the last 3 rivits that are hiding behind it.
along the windows under the rubber seal there is occasionally a philips screw and some type of aluminum rivet that has been shaved you will need to drill them out as well. and then a flat screwdriver and some pressure and the panel will peal away from the wall. it has a very sticky tarlike adhesive so you will have to pull hard to get that stuff loses. and then you can get to that nasty insulation that is crying to be replaced.
well i hope the photos came thru and you all can see this process. if not check them out at this link.
http://s1107.photobucket.com/albums/h382/mrmed5683/interior%20panel%20and%20rivets/ (http://s1107.photobucket.com/albums/h382/mrmed5683/interior%20panel%20and%20rivets/)
I Think that will about cover it for now
Mark
by the way before you start chiseling the heads off put on yer safety glasses as them littel buggers fly and bounce all over the place, ya don't want one in yer eye.
ALSO, there was a couple of these the pin just didn't budge and those ones i just chiseled till they popped off. FWIW
Mark
Mark, Thanks for posting the photos of your work.
These panels are structural and you will want to reinstall them.
Chris
thank you for the info on reinstalling them. I just wanted to do a better insulation behind there. I will keep the panels to put back on.
Mark
Keep up the good work, I would rather be putting back together than to be tearing apart. Good luck Jason
Mark, it looks like your about at the same place I am right now. I also have removed the inner panels on my mc9, drivers side only at this time. I did not run into the rivets with the hard pins as you did and I was able to just chisel them off, usually within three good wacks. The small rivets around the window openings I ground off the heads with a cut off wheel, the aluminum their was real soft and I had to be careful not to bend it up. I found some rust and repaired it, it looks like my window frames have hair line cracks just before the corners where they turn and go up toward the ceiling where water was getting in causing the rust. I haven't decided how I am going to try and fix the cracks yet, thinking about trying lead, the type used in antique body work. I am going to be removing some of the windows, so maybe I can just pull out the cracked ones and move the good one into their place. I am planing on using pink, or blue board insulation, with great stuff sprayed into the steel channel frame work. With that done I will re-rivet the panels back on and start on the other side. Most of my sticky tape survived the panel removal, I think it is there to stop the panels from vibrating and driving everyone on the bus insane. but in some spots in did not make it, I would like to replace it in the spots where it is gone, but don't know what it is or where to buy it, unless someone has a lead on it I will have to find something of similar thickness to replace it with.
Mark,
The deeper you go, you are not going to believe the " FILTH '' you run into. Make sure you ware a mask! LOL!!
Steve 5B.........
On the small rivets use a 1/8 ' drill bit ,it will take off the heads then use a punch to drive the rest back out of the whole, clean with no damage
mike I was going to use roofing black jack from a caulk gun tube, home depot has it in their roofing department. it is almost a tar like substance that has rubbery sticky holding yet never gets hard as a rock. should do the trick rather nicely with minimal mess. And stop any metal to metal viberation noise. I have used it for the drip edge and first layer of shingles on roofs for many years. not to expensive and goes a long way. JFK
Mark
Seen previous advice that not only is that panel structural, if it is removed for renovation, the whole body should be blocked up to prevent any possibility of sagging
I must be thinking of a differant panel than you guys are referring to. Before my involvement in the board(didn't even know it existed) I built a MCI8 removed the sheet metal along wall where air and heat traveled up and exited just below windows. The bus didn't fall down or sag.I replaced it with 3/8 plywood screwed about every 6 inches. Ran coach for 7 yrs before moving on to another. seems to me the small pop rivits that hold it on would have sheared or egged out if there was any flex there. Is the MCI 8 any differant in side structure than the 1978 MCI 8 I had? confused Bob
I remove mine also Bob on my 8 never caused a problem I know of, the bus is still out there on the hiway.
Guys fwiw the aircraft tool place have different tools to remove those rivets sure makes life easier for you.
good luck
Cheap harbor freight air chisel with flat blade does wonders also. Plus sheet metal chisel available for it also.
Mark, nice work, thanks for the pics. I'm not sure if I've got the courage to dig in that deep! jm
Quotemike I was going to use roofing black jack from a caulk gun tube, home depot has it in their roofing department. it is almost a tar like substance that has rubbery sticky holding yet never gets hard as a rock. should do the trick rather nicely with minimal mess. And stop any metal to metal viberation noise. I have used it for the drip edge and first layer of shingles on roofs for many years. not to expensive and goes a long way.
The tape you spoke of not only prevents vibrations and squeaks but if not more importantly acts as an insulator to prevent galvanic corrosion between the aluminum panels and the steel structure.
QuoteI must be thinking of a differant panel than you guys are referring to. Before my involvement in the board(didn't even know it existed) I built a MCI8 removed the sheet metal along wall where air and heat traveled up and exited just below windows. The bus didn't fall down or sag.I replaced it with 3/8 plywood screwed about every 6 inches. Ran coach for 7 yrs before moving on to another. seems to me the small pop rivits that hold it on would have sheared or egged out if there was any flex there. Is the MCI 8 any differant in side structure than the 1978 MCI 8 I had? confused
Interesting to here everyones experience's relating to the purpose of aluminum interior panels and blocking up the bus when removing them.
Kenny
I seem to think the consensus on the MCI monocoque construction is that the exterior panels are definitely structural but the interior panels are less so. Aluminium rivets with steel mandrels that are retained in shear inside the rivet body are generally considered structural rivets, in race car work, but depending on type may be more or less so. I think that lots of people have removed the interior without issues, and not worried overmuch about replacing it. Putting tape between the framing and the panel is not going to improve it's structural capacity, but bonding it with an epoxy would.
Brian
Mark, thanks for the tip on Black Jack, never heard of the stuff, but it sounds like it would be perfect. I was thinking of using Ice and Water shield, but then I would have to remove all the sticky tape that is still good because of the additional thickness. I think the Black Jack would be much better. I was originally not going to put the panels back on, but many people on the forum cautioned me because of the structural issues, I figured better safe than sorry. Plywood, if tightly applied may have as much strength, or more than the original sheet metal, at least until it rots out, but I am not a mechanical engineer so I really have no idea. I figure there will be so much time and money in my conversion I might as well stick with what is known to work.
This coming weekend I am planing on sandblasting and painting the pass. side radiator tanks and side frames, so interior work will have to wait, unless I need something to due while the paint dries. Good luck with her Mark, I look forward to seeing your progress.
Quote from: robertglines1 on January 04, 2011, 06:14:01 AM
I must be thinking of a differant panel than you guys are referring to. Before my involvement in the board(didn't even know it existed) I built a MCI8 removed the sheet metal along wall where air and heat traveled up and exited just below windows. The bus didn't fall down or sag.I replaced it with 3/8 plywood screwed about every 6 inches. Ran coach for 7 yrs before moving on to another. seems to me the small pop rivits that hold it on would have sheared or egged out if there was any flex there. Is the MCI 8 any differant in side structure than the 1978 MCI 8 I had? confused Bob
There were three layers - first the decorative panel, then the thin aluminium dimple plate - both of which aren't regarded as structural - and then a thicker sheet fastened to the stell frame. This is regarded as structural. Of course that doesn't mean some other sheet material can't perform the same function and in your case the plywood and frequent screws might well be as good or better than the original.
Awesome details and pics Mark... Thank You!!
Those Rivets with the steel pins inside them are in Aviation Cherry Lock rivets and are concedered structural. If you look closely at the top of the pin at the inside of the rivet head you can see an extra lock ring that seats in the head around the pin and holds it in place. These are used in places where a "bucked" rivet can not be used due to not being able to get to the back side to buck it or set it in place. Standard method to remove is just what the OP stated to do. After either chiseling or grinding the ring out Punch the center out and drill with either a #30 or #27 Drill to just remove the head and tap the rest out into the structure. I don't know how you get the tails out of the tube.
"Punch the center out and drill with either a #30 or #27 Drill to just remove the head and tap the rest out into the structure. I don't know how you get the tails out of the tube."
I restored an old 1960's sports racer with a tube frame and riveted on aluminium floor. I cut the front of the main chassis tubes off, and about 10 lbs of rivet bodies eventually got fished out. the floor had been replaced a couple of times... and several hundred rivets held it on!
brian