I need to order more wire for my bus. Any reasons not to use the three wire marine cable (like romex) for 110V AC instead of three seperate wires in a conduit?
I really need to save time to get my conversion usable in three weeks and the romex would be faster. It would also make life easier as the cable is more flexible than conduit.
Brian Elfert
Brian I would think you could use the marine wire IF it's stranded. IF it's solid LIKE ROMEX, then I would think it wouldn't be real safe! Now I am the first to admit, I'm not an authority on this but from what I've learned from coming here and from friends like Jack Conrad this is all I can offer. Order the wire that is right and you'll be money ahead, though not done as quick as you want!
Ace
Quote from: Ace on September 04, 2006, 07:02:15 PM
Brian I would think you could use the marine wire IF it's stranded. IF it's solid LIKE ROMEX, then I would think it wouldn't be real safe! Now I am the first to admit, I'm not an authority on this but from what I've learned from coming here and from friends like Jack Conrad this is all I can offer. Order the wire that is right and you'll be money ahead, though not done as quick as you want!
The marine 3 wire cable is stranded and tinned like the regular marine wire.
Brian Elfert
Brian, again not being an authority on the subject but your description tells me that yes it will be just fine!
Others may have a btter opinion!
Ace
Brian,
I use individual wires in the plastic flexible conduit, but that is just "my way". I have heard that the marine cable is not UL approved, but it is probably as good as or better than the UL approved "romex". There is always a discussion about insurance not paying if you have a fire because you used marine (non UL approved) cable. The conduit does offer a little more protection for the wire, but either should work. Jack
Quote from: JackConrad on September 05, 2006, 04:54:33 AM
Brian,
I use individual wires in the plastic flexible conduit, but that is just "my way". I have heard that the marine cable is not UL approved, but it is probably as good as or better than the UL approved "romex". There is always a discussion about insurance not paying if you have a fire because you used marine (non UL approved) cable. The conduit does offer a little more protection for the wire, but either should work. Jack
Most marine wire wire seems to be UL listed these days. Waytek's marine wire is under UL 1426. The stuff I bought from Skycraft Surplus has a UL listing sticker on it, but doesn't list the UL number.
I've never heard of a insurer not paying for a fire unless it was arson. They will probably drop your insurance if it was something stupid.
Brian Elfert
Brian we just searched for marine cable for our 04 and this company had the best price by far on the stuff and fast easy shipping
heres a link go to the specials page
http://www.terminalsupplyco.com/default.asp
chris
Quote from: 4104bigred on September 05, 2006, 06:04:52 AM
Brian we just searched for marine cable for our 04 and this company had the best price by far on the stuff and fast easy shipping
Damn, I read this about five minutes after I had ordered my cable from Skycraft Surplus earlier this morning. I could have saved about $30.
Brian Elfert
Brian,
This question has been discussed many times before. And generated considerable controversy. To summarise: The marine cable is NOT approved, under the National Electrical Code (NEC), for use in an RV. While it may in fact be more suitable it is NOT approved. Solid wire 'romex' is approved as is stranded 'thnn' in conduit. The choice is up to you. I chose to use the plastic flex conduit and thnn for most of my wiring but I have a few pieces of romex running up walls were I wanted the 1/4" thickness. Regardless of which you chose be sure to use the proper termination technique. It is unaceptable and unsafe to simply wrap stranded wire around a screw and tighten the screw (at an outlet or switch). If you use stranded wire you'll need to crimp terminals on for these kinds of connections.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Jerry, all of my wiring is stranded and all of it is wrapped around the terminal screws at all outlets and switches! Is this wrong?
Ace
Oh Geez....
Where's my flack jacket and helmet????
here we go....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Ace,
Yes it's wrong and it's unsafe to wrap stranded wire around a terminal screw. The problem is the connection will not stay 'tight' under the least bit of temperature cycling which may be due to heating caused by current flow. Once the connection is loose it can easily start a fire. Please invest in a good crimper and a couple boxes of crimp on terminals and re do all those connections. An electrical fire due to this 'mistake' would be far more expensive.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
I used romex for most 110VAC. It makes a nice connection at the terminals. If romex is anchored well, I'll be dead (not due to electrical fire) before the stuff "work" hardens and cracks in a bus chassis. Heat pumps are wired with 12g MC..which is stranded. All outlets are wired with romex. All 12VDC is stranded. And, the inverter feeds and returns to the sub panel are stranded.
I'll be the first to post any issues I have with romex. Some folk will cheat after growing tired of running miles of stranded cable bundling 3 leads with every run...make that "home run." Confusion may create some odd wiring outcomes.
Stranded wire on some 110VAC components requires a ton of work to make fast. As long as your wiring is properly anchored, and run in something to prevent chaffing, the circuits are not overloaded, and all circuits are properly fused...fire from wiring is unlikely. One thing about romex, is that it will always have a good bond, and neutral.
Another thing is before you spend tons of time and money on stranded wire, check out some of the expensive motorhomes and see what was used to wire the 110VAC circuits
After spending too many years in the marine business...I found that stranded boat style wiring has its issues too.
Please be advised that due to my use of romex, no offense will be taken if ya'll that have romex free coaches wish to park like....a few feet further from my coach. I like a large open campsite! ;)
my dos centavos!
JR
Well now, I wonder if I can a refund on my rally fees from Timmonsville and Arcadia? I don't think anyone would pit next to me knowing how unsafe my coach is and I know I don't have near enough time to change it out by then which by the way is one month from today!
Oh well, if not, money well spent! Welcome to bussing! :)
Ace
Quote from: Ace on September 05, 2006, 06:22:48 PM
Well now, I wonder if I can a refund on my rally fees from Timmonsville and Arcadia? I don't think anyone would pit next to me knowing how unsafe my coach is and I know I don't have near enough time to change it out by then which by the way is one month from today!
Oh well, if not, money well spent! Welcome to bussing! :)
Ace
Nope. No refunds. You just gotta be there. We pays our money and we takes our chances!
I'll park next to you...no problem. My bus will bring...."flavor" to the neighborhood... ::)
See ya, JR
My last three buses I used the flat gray stuff you buy at Home Depot that is made for direct sunlight or burial. I have never had a any problem and it has a much more durable jacket than the regular romex. It's only a few bucks higher and works fast. I bought a 250 ft roll of 12ga for 3 AC, micro, water heater, toekick ect. The 14 ga is much easier to work with and will handle 15 amps for TVs land other small stuff. I have seen a lot of motorhomes that had plain old romex from the factory.
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on September 05, 2006, 04:29:10 PM
Brian,
This question has been discussed many times before. And generated considerable controversy. To summarise: The marine cable is NOT approved, under the National Electrical Code (NEC), for use in an RV. While it may in fact be more suitable it is NOT approved. Solid wire 'romex' is approved as is stranded 'thnn' in conduit. ...........................
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
What is 'thnn' wire? My code book doesn't seem to list that.
Not even in Article 551 for RV's.
Quote from: Ace on September 05, 2006, 04:48:47 PM
Jerry, all of my wiring is stranded and all of it is wrapped around the terminal screws at all outlets and switches! Is this wrong?
Ace
Ace,
While I'm neutral on the subject of stranded thhn in conduit vs. solid romex and tinned boat wire (I believe they are all safe if installed properly), I have to go with Jerry on this one. Wrapping stranded wire around the switch and outlet screws is just not safe. There is just too much risk of the connections becomming loose or the strands breaking due to vibration or overtightening of the screws.
I highly recommend you go to waytekwire.com and order a bunch of crimp on fork terminals (I'd recommend ring terminals, but often the screws in switches and outlets are designed so they won't come out of the holes) and a good quality crimper such as their number 434. http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/218_027.PDF At $131 it's not cheap, but it's the best money I've spent on bus related tools, so far.
While you're there, get yourself a good stripper (no, not that kind) such as their item 444. Again, money well spent in terms of quality of the end product and time spent.
They also offer some clear plastic shrink tube which can be used to attach paper labels to your wires while insulating crimped terminal ends.
craig
Quote from: zxt on September 06, 2006, 06:27:15 AM
What is 'thnn' wire? My code book doesn't seem to list that.
Not even in Article 551 for RV's.
It's a misprint. He meant THHN. There's also TFFN which is basically the same thing, but in smaller gauge wire.
Thank you Craig. I mistyped THHN and didn't catch it Again boat wire can be safe even though it is not approved for use in an rv, by the NEC. Without proper connections though stranded wire is a definite saftey issue.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120.
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on September 06, 2006, 06:48:03 AM
Thank you Craig. I mistyped THHN and didn't catch it Again boat wire can be safe even though it is not approved for use in an rv, by the NEC. Without proper connections though stranded wire is a definite saftey issue.
I thought the NEC had ceded control over RVs to the NFPA or the RVIA?
The RVIA codes are bare minimums that make sure the RV is cheap the manufactur and make it past the warranty period. (Might be a bit of an exaggeration.)
Brian Elfert