Hey Folks--
It was about this time last year that we had to search for a used engine due to gear train failure of the old one.Dropped bus off last week at the shop because I started seeing some blue smoke. Well, just got word from my mechanic that 2 cylinders in my replacement engine only have about 200psi compression and the liners in those hole are loose. He says it may not be as simple as putting new cylinder kits in because the loose liners may mean that the block needs boring.
Just looking for some advice, I know this isn't alot of info, but it's all I have right now. Probably know more tomorrow.
Is it look for another engine time, or try to rebuild this one? :'(
Thanks,
Brandon
Get estimates for overhauling your engine. It will be expensive: lots of labor. The good thing is that you would then know you had a good engine for a long time.
A cheaper alternative is to look for a used engine and slide it in. It is probably cheap enough to take the risk on an unknown engine.
JC
JC,
Just slid in used engine this time last year :-\
This things gonna put me in the poor house!
Brandon
Brandon,
It mostly depends on your personal economic situation.
Another used engine is just another crap shoot.
Options:
1. Minimal repair on the engine you have
2. Major overhaul on the engine you have
3. Another used engine
4. A factory rebuilt engine exchange.
My choice, given the small size of my checkbook, would be an overhaul of your engine, assuming you have someone who knows what they are doing.
Now, if you found a documented and/or professionally tested used engine, that might be a good compromise.
It's not an easy decision no matter how you go. For some of us, it would mean scrap the bus and forget the whole thing.
There is hardly anything more unpleasant or expensive than losing an engine thousands of miles from home.
Where are you located? If you can get it to central Florida, I know of a good engine swap shop that is REALLY pretty reasonable and you can stay in the bus while the work is being done and to add to that, IF it gets done in time, you can join all of us for New Years in Arcadia!
What motor do you have. They might have one built and ready to go in!
Quote from: Len Silva on December 08, 2010, 11:57:59 AM
It's not an easy decision no matter how you go. For some of us, it would mean scrap the bus and forget the whole thing.
This is a definite possibility, We've had it going on four years now and this isn't the first catastrophe. It's almost embarassing the amount of money that's been spent so far on repairs, not to mention the labor and repairs I've done myself, and the new paint job. I know at some point the smart thing is to scrap it, I just don't know how many more $$$ we can justify. That would be a very sad day, seeing her on the hook for the last time to the recycler.
Ace,
8v71, do you have any ideas on price from your guys?
I've got a good mechanic here in NC, and I'd hate to take the work from him. I would also have to pay him to put it back together to attempt the trip down to FL.
Thanks,
Brandon
Brandon, I just talked to my buddy and he says he DOES have what you need! He said to give him a call and discuss it with him and he WILL treat you right!
His name is John, and his number is 863/559-8862
He just had Sean from these boards there with his bus in for service, Steve is there now with his 60 series transplanted NeoPlan for Bigfoot levelers there. Bill will be there this week with his H3 Prevost and Jack Cambell's bus is there now for king pins and bushings! That is onlyu a few that I know of that are recent! Mine MIGHT go in before Arcadia but not a necessity!
Give him a call! He will treat you better than anyone else!
I agree with ACE. John and his group are just great and easy to work with -- also honest as the day is long. helped me out several years back and the experience is one of the best onesI have had with a repair shop. His word is better than good. At least call him.
JimH
Yes, used engines are a crap shoot, but - it comes down to risk management.
A good & through inspection of a used motor won't be cheap, but then you'll KNOW what you are starting with.
I know an AWESOME 2 stroke mechanic in MillSpring, NC & he also very good to busnuts. He has a '48 Jimmy that he put a DDEC 6-71T in & it sounds so good!
(Russell's Diesel Service 828/863-2102)
Sometimes freshly rebuilt engines have problems too. Driving style has a huge effect on the life of the motor.
Price out all of your options before you make a decision.
A 2 stroke will go for a long time with problems that would stop a 4 stroke. . . .
As for the $$$ already spent - well, that is what hobbies are for, to provide something to point at when asked "where did all the money go?" ;)
Brandon, check with Nimco he had some good 71 lefties not long ago don't just buy the takeout buy the dyno tested those are lo mileage engines Nimco had,if he still has it I know a guy in Idaho that has one with 7600 miles total (City of Phoenix Bus ) and you can buy the bus and the engine for 3 grand and drive it anywhere and then remove the engine, shop buddy you do not want to invest 10 grand in a 8v71 engine in todays market and it will cost you 10+ if a shop does it and you are never going to get the money back when you sell.
You never know anyway if your 71 is rebuildable most of those engines have been bored to limit over the years
good luck
Clifford with all due respect, I think it would fair to say that before you quote what shops would charge such as 10k as you stated, maybe you should have checked with the shops in question! If John said he would give him a deal, I believe THAT deal to way better than 10k or more as you put it! Quote the shops you know, not the ones you don't!
Besides John has a top notch 2 stoke mechanic on site and a 4 stroke guy and they have done MANY re-builds that are still running from years ago!
In fact they JUST finished up re-planting a 8v92 in a 45 foot Neo-plan with a 14 litre 60 series and most everything had to be hand crafted from scratch such as cradle, misc mounts, hoses, lines, wiring harness's etc etc. so I think they are more than capable of supplying the needs of bus nuts here and there and at a GOOD price. The owner of the Neo-plan was VERY pleased with the work AND the final price!
It wouldn't hurt for Brandon to at least give him a call and get a quote! As for engines? When his mechanics are slow, he has them rebuild motors and then set them up on a shelf covered up so he does have a selection! Granted they aren't all dyno tuned and painted but they are built right!
Call John and check Ace if his are rebuilt to DD spec's it will be 10+ may be a little cheaper with aftermarket parts I am not bad mouthing John bought several 3:33 gears for Eagles from him you just can not rebuild those engines cheap any longer,bet you a cold one it will be 10 grand fwiw I saw 8v71 from a shop on the other coast that was over 20 grand,40 to 50 man hours to rebuild one out of the bus
good luck
I had the same thing happen to me when I bought my transit bus with 8V-71N. The bus company would put in a new speedo when they overhauled an engine. The speedo was showing 67,000mi, and the engine did run well. It eventually overheated cracking one of the heads-but the coolant temp never went up-indicating that the cylinder liners were not fitted correctly. I had the engine overhauled at LA Freightliner. We pulled the engine cradle, and found the cylinders in the block out of round. We had the block bored .010 over and used .010 over bore with standard piston bore cylinder liners. I reused all my pistons and rings-since they were in good shape and bought one new cylinder head. I noticed right away that the engine ran with a hotter coolant temperature-indicating that the cylinder liners were now nice and tight transferring the heat properly to the block. Have this done and you probably won't ever have to touch the engine again. On the worn out cylinders-you could probably get by with ring replacment with the new oversized cylinder liners. Good Luck, TomC
Kyle, the Russell's Diesel Service guy, is that a PD3751 that he has with the TA in it? If so would like to speak with him.
Thanks for all the wise advice guys.
I'll give John a call tomorrow, Ace, thanks for the contact.
Clifford, the Nimco engines sound good too, although after just installing a used engine a year ago---I'm a little "used engine shy"
Tom C, I did notice this replacement engine never got above 170 degrees unless I was out west on the grades in high altitude. I thought this was a good thing, since my original engine was hard to keep cool.
Thanks for the replies, now I just have a lot of thinking to do. ??? ??? ???
Quote from: luvrbus on December 08, 2010, 03:43:07 PM
Call John and check Ace if his are rebuilt to DD spec's it will be 10+ may be a little cheaper with aftermarket parts I am not bad mouthing John bought several 3:33 gears for Eagles from him you just can not rebuild those engines cheap any longer,bet you a cold one it will be 10 grand fwiw I saw 8v71 from a shop on the other coast that was over 20 grand,40 to 50 man hours to rebuild one out of the bus good luck
Mine cost (3 years ago) parts, labor, in and out, right at 25K.
BCO
Don, the 8v92TA cost more to rebuild than the old 71 the 25 grand for a DD out of frame rebuild is not that bad for a 8v92 it will cost more than now lol
Well all I can say is I am damn glad I live where I live and not where you guys live because those prices are WAY out of line! For that kind of money I can put a 60 series in my bus INCLUDNG the cost of the engine!
I have seen 8v92's rebuilt for a hell of lot less than what you guys paid but as you all say, do it YOUR way and furthermore, I wouldn't even consider getting a price from a shop down here since they have only been doing bus repair work for the last 40 or more years and I'm sure they have no clue as to what they are doing or what to charge!
Hey I tried to find the guy a deal, nothing more! If he does he does, and if he doesn't so be it but this proves that it doesn't matter what ANYONE says, someone else on this board knows more and better AND it doesn't matter what it refers to, not just this!
Gee Ace lighten up... People actually do disagree here once in awhile.
No ones attacking you they have just had different experiences is all.
Quote from: Boomer on December 08, 2010, 05:22:32 PM
Kyle, the Russell's Diesel Service guy, is that a PD3751 that he has with the TA in it? If so would like to speak with him.
That's him. One of the finest guys I have ever met. I know several people he has helped/ worked on their buses & they are all
pleased delighted with the quality of the work.
Ace,
Just got off the phone with your buddy, seems like a real nice guy. He has no rebuilts on the shelf, only a take out in the yard. Clifford was pretty close on the price, to rebuild mine, all said and done....around $9k. That is with all DD parts, not a bad deal, but my wallet is too small right now! >:(
Thanks for all the help guys. On the way out to the shop to look at my situation. :o
Brandon
Engines are engines and they break. When I build a race engine for a guy, it's his when it fires. If it blows on the dyno, no warranty, and that's just the way it is - they break! If I get a crank magged and crack tested - the guy tells me "it's not cracked now" and it may crack on the way home to your shop if you drop it. If you do a rebuild, you could crack a liner firing it up the first time - it's happened. The quote I got from my local DD machine shop and rebuilder was $12K CDN to rebuild an 8V71. It just costs a lot to do it right. Sure the kit on ebay is $1800 for aftermarket parts, but if you want the real deal, it costs a lot.
I would just take my best guess. I bought a never-used DD rebuild and I am slowly turning it into a bus engine. If you buy a bus takeout, low miles, you don't have to do the conversion. If you buy an engine that you know runs well, either dyno tested or from a guy who is honest and knows the engine's history, I think that's the best that you can possibly do, except for buying a new engine from DD.
Good luck, it's a hard decision! If you are like me, you are basically betting your bus on it.
Brian
Lol Dang Clifford, you were right on the mound with the 10k +/-, incredible!
Well, got to see the inside of things this morning. Didn't look too good, but looks like I will be able to get by with an in-frame, no block boring needed.
One of the cylinder liners was actually in two pieces!
I found a rebuild kit for around $1,300, machine heads for $800, +or- 40 hours of labor for $2,800= $4,900. I'm sure there will be a few more odds and ends expenses. Still a lot to spend right now, but maybe I'll have a good engine after this.
Feel free to add to my list.
Thanks,
Brandon
When something breaks there is a reason. Did you get any information of what happend? Like idling to long and oil starved? try to get some info to go with the pics you have. Your re builder should be able to tell you something. You don't want to just feed it parts and not fix a problem. An in frame would not be good if you have a plugged water passage that caused overheating on that one cylinder. Not that any of this could be what happend. I would just like to see what particular defect caused that kind of problem.
My only comment would be to feel really comfortable about the quality of the kit you get for $1300. That is a lot less than any kit I found, and they were all off-shore manufacture. But your supplier and mechanic will be able to advise you far better than I could.
Brian
It would be nice to get an expert post mortem on this engine. That's a problem with a used engine, you have no idea how it was driven or maintained.
I've been burned a couple of times on used engines, though not expensive diesels.
Quote from: Len Silva on December 09, 2010, 01:48:32 PM
It would be nice to get an expert post mortem on this engine. That's a problem with a used engine, you have no idea how it was driven or maintained.
I've been burned a couple of times on used engines, though not expensive diesels.
I wish I knew more about what happened. I can say that the 10k miles or so I had this engine I took as good care of it as I could, used the right oil, didn't idle it, and didn't lug it either. It was a used engine, who knows how it was treated before.
Brian, I'm looking at this one http://www.dieselpro.com/tkrebuildingkitfor8v71detroitdieselnaturalengine.aspx (http://www.dieselpro.com/tkrebuildingkitfor8v71detroitdieselnaturalengine.aspx) Are these ok ?
Brandon
Brandon,
How much oil was it using on average since you've owned it?
Was there alot of oil coming out the spitter tubes since you bought it?
What was your oil pressure at idle ?
Do you have a remote mounted mechanical oil pressure gauge in the engine compartment and if so what was it normally reading?
It will be interesting to see how the rod and main bearings on that halved liner cylinder. Did any of your valves meet a piston?
You have one thing to be grateful for... If that would have been a wet sleeve motor you would be doing an out of frame at a considerably higher cost than your 8V71...
Feeling for you brother. Gives me the shivers to think of how you must feel after dumping so much time and hard earned cash into this engine. Keep Clifford and Don in the loop when trying to figure out what caused this.
Rick
Brandon, give Dale a shot (songman) he sells Interstate/McBee kits made in the USA by Federal www.thebuspartsstore.com (http://www.thebuspartsstore.com) he may have a better price ?
A bad fit to tight,to loose,to high,to low,cheap liners,loss of piston pin seals, heat, piston seizures several things can cause the liners to pull at the ports on a 71 series 92 series are not as bad as the 71 series for pulling the liner apart.
All diesel engine will pull a liner Cummins,Cat, M/B, S60 when the time comes not just the 2 strokes fwiw
good luck,
Rick,
Wasn't using much oil when I put it in last year, then the consumption went up in the last 3k miles. There was always a pretty good amount coming out of the air box drains. Oil pressure really low at idle. I do have a mechanical gauge in rear, at full throttle It would go up to 50 for about 2 seconds, then drop down to 40 or so still holding throttle. Rod bearings on the busted cylinder were worn down to the other layer of metal. Copper? No piston-valve interference, heads are still good, but going to have them re-worked for a little insurance.
Clifford,
I contacted Songman, just waiting for a reply. I called Nimco as well, and at the moment they are out of 8v71's. Thanks for the info.
Brandon
You might want to do an oil analysis as part of your figure out why this happened plan.
I would pull the oil filter and cut it in half as well. See how much stuff was floating around in there the last 3k miles.
Are you doing the cam bearings as well?
Okay I'll quit with the questions....
Rick
A broken ring could have caused the cylinder liner to break in two. Good Luck, TomC
On the phone with a busnut yesterday, and he recommended I order a kit with the 2 piece style pistons. I forgot to ask him why! Can someone explain what the advantages of the 2 piece set-up. Those kits cost more, but if better, than that's what I need.
Rick, do I need to replace cam bearings? They are not part of an in-frame kit.
Thanks,
Brandon
Brandon, use those only if you have plans to turbo the engine those are 17:1 compression you have 18:1,your guy can check the cam bearing I doubt if you need those they don't wear much, changing those babies it becomes a major job
good luck
Copy that Clifford, thanks. That keeps the kit costs down a little.
Brandon,
The cross-head pistons are available in both compression ratios. They are better in a number of ways:
The slipper type piston pin bushing provides twice the surface area as the bushings in the trunk piston which eliminates premature bushing wear.
Because the two pieces can react independently to the forces involved, there is less piston slap. So they are quieter and less prone to scuffing and you get reduced ring and groove wear.
There is increased lubrication and cooling of the piston crown.
All of this generally means extended life for the piston and cylinder.
That being said, when we spoke on the phone yesterday, I forgot that in order to make this change, you will have to replace the connecting rods, as well. This will add more cost of the overhaul.
If it was me, I'd spend the extra money for the upgrade, but I wouldn't be paying a mechanic to do the work, which, of course, makes a huge difference to the wallet.
Your mechanic may be able to source some used rods that could be checked by his machine shop and resized if neccessary. He's cutting you a pretty good deal.....in the end I'd go with what he's most comfortable with.
Bob
Do what ever you choose Brandon but Cross/Heads are a waste in a 71 600 bucks for rods and bolts rebuilt with out the core.
Talk to your guy if your engine has cross/heads go back the same just be sure and gauge the dome for the right compression no telling what a aftermarket kit will have.
You need to wait to order anyway till he gets the engine tore down to make sure you don't need oversized bearings and liners
good luck
Here's an update,
After thinking really hard about which pistons to use, I decided to just go back with trunk style, wanted to use the cross-head pistons but just couldn't justify the extra expense right now. My mechanic had the correct rods, but they were in another engine. He would have pulled them for me, but that would have been more labor, and the 2-piece kit cost a good deal more. If I was rebuilding a truck engine to make money with, I would have gone with the new technology. I think the original set-up is going to be fine in my bus used as a motorhome.
Received all my parts yesterday, picking up my rebuilt heads on Monday and dropping them off with my mechanic. Can't wait to get it all put back together!
Brandon
Brandon, tough to throw old smiling Ben into those old engines you will be fine with the standard setup it worked for 40 years ,me I do not like that rubber o-ring between the the dome and skirt
good luck
Clifford, yeah, the way my "bus luck" has gone, I might as well have had the sliders open and and let the Franklins fly! :o
Oh, and for what it's worth, all my new parts are Interstate-McBee. Good 'ole American company, but the part boxes say "Made in Korea". ??? But that's ok, I drive a Subaru, and own a Toyota truck, and the one vehicle that has been in the shop is the F550 Ford!
Brandon
Brandon,
I am just now following this thread, it is probably a late reply of any kind to you now but knowing that you live in NC, the suggestion that Kyle gave you to look up or call Gene Russel who lives in Mill springs, NC is about a solid advise as I can suggest also. This guy is phenomenal, he can assemble a bicycle with a turbo and be a two stroke at that!! No kidding, I love this guy and his mechanical knowledge. When you talk to Gene, he is soooo laid back, you are probably thinking, (wow, I wonder how much Sour Mash this guy made) but man are you in for a surprise as to what a nice guy he is and how much knowledge he as as soon as he speaks.
Anyhow, if you got your engine rebuilt and finished and want a tune up etc. at any time, consider contacting Gene and be prepared for a pleasureful visit and receive great workmanship from him. I only hope when I am finally ready to crank up my Eagle, after 8 years on blocks, to try and have Gene come here for a weekend to visit and also check over my two stroke before firing her up.
Good Luck Brandon on your decisions, everyone is trying to help you out up and down the coast and between two coast at that. Let us know of your final work that has been completed and hopefully it will make your travels much more pleasant and hopefully not at the cost of what I am seeing above. WOW!! $25K to replace my engine, I would contact 4 Illegal Aliens with torches if that happens to me!! Only kidding, only kidding.
"Gary lee"
Gary,
I keep hearing that Gene is a really good mech, and a good guy. Can't wait to meet him one day, his shop is about the same distance away as David's from me. I feel pretty comfortable with the mechanic I have, but good to now I have choices around here.
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on December 18, 2010, 07:17:01 AM
Good Luck Brandon on your decisions, everyone is trying to help you out up and down the coast and between two coast at that. Let us know of your final work that has been completed and hopefully it will make your travels much more pleasant and hopefully not at the cost of what I am seeing above. WOW!! $25K to replace my engine, I would contact 4 Illegal Aliens with torches if that happens to me!! Only kidding, only kidding.
"Gary lee"
Yeah, the folks and help offered on this board is amazing! I hope one day we can make it to a rally to meet you awesome busnuts.
As for the inframe rebuild costs, I'll have right at $5k in it.
Brandon
Brandon,
It is good to know you are happy with your mechanic and trust him as well. Good luck again, the price on your rebuild is pretty good to me, safe traveling to you and family, have a Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday season.
"Gary Lee"
Gary,
Thanks, and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all from my family and crew.
Got a call yesterday from mech., engine in-frame is complete! ;D He said he took her down the road and all is well. Can't bring it home though, road to my house is a sloppy red clay mess. :-\
Brandon
Brandon :: I know your glad to get your wheels back, that sounds like a good deal on the moter. I was blessed to have a complete rebuild done while I was still working and making good bucks , because now I would have to scrap it. I found a young guy that had been the rebuild man for coverington Detroit in G'boro did a fantastic job very reasonable. I did Ali the grunt work in my garage and still wound up with over 6500.00 in it. Half a turn it cranks very happy. I'm just glad I got all the rebuild done first. We live just south of Asheboro and finishing up details should be ready for April rally in SC give us a shout. papa T
Papa T,
I think it was a good deal too, labor came out to be a little over $200 more than quoted, no biggie I'm still real happy with the price. Would be happier if I didn't have to do it though.
Got a real good deal on the heads, a place in Charlotte completely rebuilt them for $800 cash.
Sounds like you came out good on your rebuild as well.
Hope to get to a rally one day, most are held during our work season when we are on the road and unable to attend. I do hope to meet up with some of you NC busnuts sometime.
Brandon
Brandon,
I was wondering how things were going. I know you'll be happy to have the old beast back.
Thanks for the update.
Bob
Brandon:: We live just south of Asheboro in the boon-docks with a medow big enough for 8 or10 buses. I would like to have a mini get together some week end and just talk bus and enjoy the country. give it some thought. Warmer weather of course.