I will post the pics one at a time since they seem to foul up the works.
I first wrote about the this problem in September. The engine was bubbling coolant like a soda fountain. After getting the head off, I do not see an obvious cause.
Here is what I know. Coolant in oil. 1/2 inch of coolant in number 5 when the head is removed. Other cyls are dry. No oil in coolant. Exhaust gas in coolant. Frothy mess on top of valve train when I pulled the valve covers. No apparent loss in power when engine was running. I see some shiny surfaces on the block and the head in the web between five and six that I do not see on the other webs. The head gasket appears to have kept it's seal. The cyl liner is flush to .001 proud on cyl 5. It's about .002 proud on the other cyls. I have taken the head to a DD shop to have it pressure tested. I did not see coolant or damage in the injector tubes, but who knows. One of the mechanics at the shop looked at the head and head gasket and said he did not see anything. I'll post pics for your viewing. The pic of cyl 5 shows etching where the coolant condensed on the cyl wall while sitting since September.
Where would you go from here?
it sounds to me like a cracked cylinder liner in no 5.
Brian
I give up on the pictures. You can see them on http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10299#post10299 (http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10299#post10299)Not meaning to hijack the site, but for some reason the system keeps rejecting my pics even though they are sized well below the maximum.
I have looked at the top of the liner. Would a crack be evident, or do I need to pressurize the coolant passages in the block to detect the crack?
Richard, one of the significant failure modes of Series 60 engines is excessive seating of the liners in the block. There is a specification for the liner height. It is common rebuild practice to machine a lip in the block and install an insert that allows proper seating of the liner.
If a liner sinks into the block (first hand experience), you will have exhaust soot in the antifreeze and the antifreeze will be pushed out of the overflow tank. There will be internal damage inside the engine from the heat of the exhaust getting by the head gasket. I lost a head bolt and there was damage to the cam area.
However, I never got oil in the water or water in the oil. Thus your symptom might, indeed be a liner problem. I doubt that it would be cracking, but rather a cavitation (erosion) failure. That would be one or more small holes in the liner. Cavitation failures are somewhat common in trucks where the wrong antifreeze (on no ::) :o) has been used.
Jim
And oh yeah, one more thing. There was a gorgeous blue Iggle parked in the lot of the DD shop in Charleston WV. Any one on here the proud owner?
How would a cracked cylinder liner create a frothy mess under the valve cover? Wouldn't that almost have to be a cracked head? Richard did they magnaflux the head for cracks? a cooling jacket in the head could allow coolant in the top end but I don't see how coolant could get into that area any other way unless it's coming up from the oilpan and wouldn't it be a frothy mess everywhere then?
You got yourself a pickle here Richard. Here's hoping someone here has seen this before.
Good luck
Rick
Jim,
Did you see the head, block, and gasket when you had the receding liner problem? If so, was it evident that exhaust had breached the sealing ring on the gasket?
Thanks for the reply.
sometimes when you shine the area up lightly with Emery cloth it will show crack as darker area (line) if not put a little used motor oil on it after shinning and wipe off and the dirty oil will remain in crack or cavitation hole..simple easy test / will not show all cracks. refering to cyl bore
Richard,
you have to be a member at the newell site to look at your pics. Can anyone here help him get his pics uploaded that would really help anyone trying help you diagnose this
RB
Rick,
It will be a week before the shop can test the head.
The mess I referred looked to me like whipped cream of the oil and coolant variety where the cam was rotating against the rockers. There was coolant puddled with the oil in the head. I really think it was just that coolant was in the oil and the rotating parts in the valve train whipped it right up. IF the head were cracked badly enough to push coolant and exhaust gas into the valve cover then the slobber tube would have been spitting a lot a that mess. It was not.
But keep the questions and logic coming. I appreciate the CSI work.
OK, Robert, you win the why didn't I think of that award.
In another life we certified nuclear welds using dye penetrant testing. Your used motor oil is a simple version of that. BRILLIANT !!!
I signed into the forum but can't access the pictures. Was trying to help by posting them! ;)
Send them to me at paul_lawry@yahoo.com and I'll put them up here so we all can see what's going on.
Paul
Richard, we were posting at the same time. I tried to look at the pictures, but it looks like you need to be a member to see them.
Somehow I read into your original post that you had water in the oil. I don't see that statement now. I did not have any oil/water mixing in my engine.
Sounds like the head has been tested and OK. Everything point to one or more sunken liners. I will look up the liner height spec. and post it in a few minutes.
Jim
Richard,worked for Bw at one time also and son works for bw (engineer) now.blue would be good also if you have some. polish head surface also and ck same way.
Thanks Paul.
Wow, lots of simultaneous posting going on here!
You had to look very close to see the migration path of the combustion gases. Indeed, the mechanic had to show me a couple of times before I could faintly see it. Not obvious.
Head has not been tested, so it could still be the problem.
I will try to post a PDF of the page from the manual that shows the measuring of the liner height. (Didn't work, so working on posting it elsewhere).
Jim
Jim,
I have coolant in the oil. But no oil in coolant.
I don't know exactly where the breach is, but my thoughts are that whent the engine is running the compression in the cylinder is far greater than the compression in the cooling system, hence the exhaust gas pressurizes the coolant. When the engine stops, the coolant system is now pressurized and the engine is not, so the pressure forces the coolant into the cylinder. I just need to find the path.
I do not want to just throw parts at it, and cross my fingers that I fixed the problem. It's too much work just to hope I fixed it.
I have the DD manual. I have to fab the sled for the dial indicator to fit on.
Wow, 25 steps later and I have a jpg that I can post and then you tell me you already have the info ;D
I probably need to step back and spend some time reading this thread again. If you have water in the oil, that would explain the frothing on the rockers.
I will post the jpg for others.
Right now I am lost, and out of time. I will take a look at the thread later today and see if anything trips some other thoughts.
Jim
Sounds like a cracked cylinder head-since no oil in the coolant. If a cylinder liner was cracked, the coolant would be contaminated. Cracked head allows oil and exhaust gases into the valve cover area where your fine mixture was made. Sounds like it's new cylinder head time. Good Luck, TomC
Head Gasket 5 to 6
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi363.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo78%2FDreamscape_Eagle%2FSeries%252060%2FHeadGasket5to6.jpg&hash=8c95fac5f846751fb071ee4e5fb261467726cbaa)
Head 5 to 6
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi363.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo78%2FDreamscape_Eagle%2FSeries%252060%2FHead5to6II.jpg&hash=d9a31dd533acd35d64106e113fbfb8aa29c8dee4)
Deck 5 to 6
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi363.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo78%2FDreamscape_Eagle%2FSeries%252060%2FDeck5to6.jpg&hash=ba434ff214c784eb4f7f70bd2433fe2bd89ab349)
the one combustion chamber on the head shot sure looks clean, like it was getting steam cleaned, know what i mean? a little rust next to the valve too. sure looks like a leaky gasket or liner. but what do I know, I'm just your average shade tree....
From the pictures it looks like you have a liner that has "sunk"
Richard, are the head bolts the new style (white on top)
good luck
Zeroclearance
What do you see in the pictures that tells you that you are looking at a sunken liner.
Clifford,
They are not the new style. They are the original head bolts, and the engine has a a 1994 build date.
Richard, that is what I was thinking that looked like the old style head gasket upgrade to the new gasket and bolts and you will be fine I don't see a low liner in your photos
good luck
This is a dumb newbie question that perhaps Clifford will humor me and answer. If the liner is sunken, is it as simple as replacing the liner? Does a new liner usually protrude the correct amount? or does a new liner automatically require recutting of the seat to achieve the correct height?
And where do you guys normally source your DD parts? Local shop? or favorite supplier?
Richard, if you do have one sunk they have to be machine out to accept the 0.30 over sized shim under the liner hope you don't have to go that route. www.dieselpro.com (http://www.dieselpro.com) is a good outlet for aftermarket parts I believe the head gasket set cost around 125 bucks I forgot what the new style head bolts cost somewhere around 5 bucks each
Lay a straight edge over the cylinders and use a feeler gauge at each cylinder you can tell real quick if one is low
good luck
The lower liner looks a hair low. This issue has plaggued the CAT 3406 "C" and "E" >> erosion to the lower liner seal.
Most good shops will have the tool to cut the upper cylinder block liner seat. Clifford has mentioned the correct method to restore the height with a shim.
Get a good straight edge and a good depth "micrometer" You can use a feeler gauge to measure around the liner to check your height. This is a good practice on any engine with the cylinder head removed.
Clifford,
Isn't he going to need all new cam bearings and main bearings at the least?
Rick,
I plan on putting new cam and mains in it. Although the cam shaft bearings do not show ANY signs of undue hardship, it's a small price to pay now that I have the engine apart.
Coolant and bearings don't mix well :(
Feeling bad for you richard but you seem like you have the heart and skill to get her back up and running. I would check into that cavitation possibility you;s sure hate to put this back together and have it develop a few more pin holes down the road.
It will be interseting to see how that coolant got in the top end. If it jst hitched a ride up there from the oil pan or if it came from the top and went down. Either way it's a bummer
RB
While I am waiting for the head to come back from the shop, I have a lot of time to think about this situation. My fear is that I will get it all back together only to see the same problem. So I have an idea, and I would like to know what you think about it.
It is pretty clear that no 5 is the problem cyl. So put the head back on, cam back in, valve train on, rotate engine so that no 5 exhaust valves are cracked open. Make a plate to fit on no 5 exhaust manifold. The has a threaded hole for an airline. Bolt the plate on and pressurize no 5. Pour water in the coolant system until it's level with the top of the open water pump. Look to see if the water bubbles.
What am I missing?
Richard, I would check the injector tube on # 5 if you have the copper tubes have the shop replace those with the new upgraded stainless steel tubes money well spent.
I have no idea why but #5 seems to be the problem on 90% of the series 60 engines
good luck
Mystery solved !!!!
Cracked liner at the top of five. I couldn't see it from the original angle. Some time with a bright light and loupes and it was clear as day.
I was so anxious about buttoning up the engine without a known root cause.
Thanks all for your help.
Hopefully I pick up the parts tomorrow and start putting her back together.
I win, what's the prize for guessing right first? ;D Just kidding...
On the "every cloud has a silver lining" front, at least you know what you need to fix now.
Brian
Now the plot thickens Richard you are going to need to find the cause liner movement is about all that will crack the liner
good luck
Richard, Cliffords observation is interesting. I would think that when you pull the old liner, you will be able to looks for signs of a poor fit. At the same time, be sure to inspect the liner closely for cavitation damage. I am sure you will have some, but you should be able to see significant damage. If it is bad, you will need to replace them all.
I would also have the head tested for cracks and flatness.
Jim
Richard is going to have some cash in just tools working on the 60 series but experience is like Mastercard priceless lol
good luck
The liner is proud of the head deck by .001, just like all the other liners. They range from .001 to .002.
I will look at the block sealing surface when I get it out tomorrow.
I have always had a suspicion that this may be a self inflicted gunshot wound. Why? Cause, the failure happend on the first trip after I did a coolant changeout. My thoughts are that in one of the cycles of flushing and refilling, that I got an air pocket in the engine and when it filled with coolant, a thermal shock ensued. It's just an imaginary scenario, but one that I think about.
So Clifford, what am I looking for to see what caused liner movement. Sorry, I'm a simpleton. It can't go up, the head is there. I'll look at the base when I pull it to look for signs of even sealing.
Oh yeah, and one more opinion question.
Change the cracked one? OR change them all?
Two schools of thought. One, you're in there, might as well do it all the way. Two, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Engine has 100k miles, and truthfully probably won't see another 100k in it's lifetime.
Richard, when you get the bad one pulled it will give you a better idea if it has cavitation the other 5 will have it also,check the circumference of the bore on make sure it is not out of round.
I would still have the S/S injector tubes installed in the head if you have the copper tubes doesn't cost that much for better tubes
good luck
Got the liner out yesterday. No cavitation at all. NONE. The seat looked pristine. No corrosion or pitting. It was consistent in depth all the way round. Dropped in a new liner, and started putting it all back together. The side of the liner with the crack cleary shows stain from from the exhaust gas and the other side is squeaky clean. There's been a lot in this thread, but early on, I commented that this may have been going on to a lesser degree for some time.
I did change the mains and con rod bearings, but I dont' think it was necessary. They didn't show any signs of damage that I could see, or I didn't know what I was looking for. Torquing the main bolts was no picnic, even with a five foot long torque wrench.
I'm racing the weather this week to get the head back on, and the coach buttoned back up.
Finally, got the engine all back together. Cranked at 5:17 today, not that I'm counting or anything. 1600 in parts and about 8 days labor all told on my part. Replaced the liner, main brgs, con rod brgs, and cam shaft brgs just to be safe.
good for you Richard! way to hang and geter done. Heading south for the winter or the rally by any chance?
Well, doo doo.
Went to drive the bus today, and after it idled for about ten minutes warming up, the sound of the engine suddenly changed and it started running rough and blowing copious blue smoke. I am thinking the turbo siezed. I did see some oil in the compressor side outlet hose. I wrote it off to the oil/coolant mixture blowing around the seal. I suppose the bearings in the turbo don't like glycol either.
I'll get the intake boot off today and see what I can see. I will also bar the engine a couple of revs to check for anything mechanical.
Am I thinking about this correctly. No power, max boost is about 7 lbs, lots of blue smoke, and it did run good for about an hour total before it started behaving this way.
Dang it.
Before you take the turbo off check all the boots for leaking. If you have a leek it will kill your turbo pressure.
Jack
Thanks Blue Goose, I will do that.
It's not the turbo. I pulled the intake elbow and it spins freely. No play, and no signs of damage.
I also barred the engine a number of revolutions with no tight places. I checked my timing marks while I was at it. No problem
A fellow on a diesel site suggested that I may have an injector problem.
I'll pop the hatch, and use a temp gun to scan the exhaust manifold. I am thinking if I have an injector problem then that cylinder should be colder than the rest.
If I had the DD interface on a computer, I think you can shut one cylinder down at a time. That would be the trick. Try them until the smoke goes away and you have the culprit, that is if injector problems are the source.
Perhaps one of the connections came loose or a wire got pinched.
I am still trying to figure out a root cause that would explain why it did not do this when I first cranked it.
Ok, Homer did something dumb. Du huh.
The exhaust valve lash adjustment was backed all the way out on one cylinder. The exhaust valves were not opening on one cylinder.
I know in reflection what happened. I used a big wrench to loosen all the lock nuts on the valve lash adjustments at one time when I set the valves. I simply missed those two when I went through the valves. As the engine ran, the lash adjustment simply unthreaded.
That explains how the engine started out fine, but starting running poorly after 30 minutes.
I ran out of time and warmth last night so I didn't get to button it back up and try it.
Hopefully the snow will let up enough to today for me to finish.
Sounds great! I am glad to hear this kind of thing happens to other people...
All the best. Let us know if it works good after fixing this.
JC
Richard >> "A" for effort in this engine rebuild.
As far as your turbo, depending on how much glycol dilution that you had will determine the life of your turbo. The main thing is with glycol present, we lose the ability of the oil to cool and lubricate the bearings. Usually we will score the bearing housing. Keep and eye on the axial play. Wheel rub quickly becomes the next failure.
I replaced the tappets on the two rockers that I boogered up, ran all the valves and injectors again just to be sure, and buttoned in all back up.
It fired and ran great from the git go. No smoke, and a smooth idle. After checking for leaks, I took it for a fifty mile spin. No problems, and the turbo built 30+ lbs on one hill when I stayed in the throttle.
Thanks to all, and especially Clifford for the advice and encouragement.
On to the next project now. I did notice the gennie starting to run a little rough and smoke. I guess while I'm still covered in oil, that'll be the next adventure.
Got 'er done! Good for you. Isn't it a good feeling!
JC