Hey guys, new bus connoisseur here.
I've found '67 MCI MC-5A for sale. It was converted in the late 80's and the engine, tranny and rear end were rebuilt at the same time. It's got the 8V-71 with the Spicer 4 speed.
The interior is in desparate need of an upgrade (per my wife's request). It's all 3/4" oak that is stained a bit too dark for her taste. It needs new flooring and maybe some appliance updating.
Since the conversion/rebuild it's tallied up around 60k, as far as the hub odometer says. I don't see an major rust issues, although there are some indications of small instances here and there. The old Detroit is a bit filthy, but as my research has led me...this just seems to be the case.
I can pick it up for $15k which I'm not sure is a good deal or not.
I did "ATTEMPT" to drive it a couple of weeks back and let's just say that my wife won't set foot on it with me again until I'm sure I can handle it a bit, how should I put this.....efficiently. Shifting was a b**ch (of should I say lack thereof).
Previous owner gave me the whole run down on it's history. I know it was a passenger bus in the south western US. Before conversion, I'm told, it probably had close to 2 million miles (this oddly doesn't scare me though). He also swore to me that this thing gets 10 mpg whether driving 60 or 80 mph....towing a car or not. And he's not the one selling it, so he has nothing to gain by lying to me (seems a little hard to swallow even still).
It's got new starting and house batteries, and has a 7.5 kW diesel generator in the under belly. Loads of storage and plenty of fresh water and gray/black water containment.
Anyway, here's my dilemma....first and foremost, I'm a little scared of this thing. Never had any experience with anything quite this large. Two words....turning radius.....yikes, there were some turns I made during my test drive that if there'd been a car in the other lane of the road I was turning onto, then there definitely would have been some contact if you know what I mean. I know that the shifting will take a bit of experience and I'm ready for that. I'm not really worried about the interior upgrading. The fuel economy does scare me a bit, but if this guy is telling the truth, then from what I can tell this is excellent. Along with my above referenced hang ups, this thing is 43 years old and it's gonna take me a small chunk of change to get it up to par for the wifey. Anybody got any good advice on whether I should take this challenge on....or just try to find a nice little Class C gasser with no need for updating. I feel I could get one for what I'd end up spending for this bus plus the cost of updating.
Oh yeah, here are a few pics of this beauty...... http://img526.imageshack.us/g/img20101022164258.jpg/ (http://img526.imageshack.us/g/img20101022164258.jpg/)
My MC-5C with the same power train gets 6.5 mpg on a good day, and couldn't do 80 mph if it fell off a cliff - it's governed to 70 or so. Mind you the speedometer thinks it can to 80 no problem... Stopwatch on a measured mile doesn't lie. Shifting is an acquired art/skill, turning radius is what it is - it's a bus, after all. The power steering on the older MC-5's was not the greatest, some (like mine) have been upgraded to integral steering box from the ram assist. 60K is believable on a hub-meter, but they just bolt on after all, changing one is the work of minutes. Depend on how it runs for condition.
How much is it worth? For me the honest answer is both more and less than $15K, probably. There is no good market for an old bus with an old conversion, so it's not worth much. On the other hand, if it runs well, has no rust issues, has good running gear, brakes, tires, and the conversion is usable, in my opinion it's worth the $15K and more. That's because it would cost you that much to get a bus that needed brakes, tires, some rust repair, and engine repair fixed - if it didn't cost you double that after you did some conversion work. You can put $30K into a bus pretty fast if you try.
Hope this helps. At the end of the day, it's worth exactly what you decide it is. No one else's opinion really matters.
Edit: I just looked at the pictures. My opinion - that is a real nice bus! I'd proud to drive that, and if it passes the condition checks I'd pay 15 grand for it in a heartbeat. I just really like the looks of it!
Brian
ck tire dates..can easily cost you 3000dollars to replace..don't run after 10 yrs old..since 2000 the last four digets give you the month And year dot 01 02 would be jan 2002. good luck Bob
One comment you made caught my attention! "You were scared"! If thats the case, you might want to consider starting with that class C until you get a feel for handling a larger vehicle than your car especially when it comes to the safety of you, your family and the people that WILL be in that car beside you!
From the pictures I like it. It looks clean. The engine if running good will clean up then you can fix leaks. My prevost just last weekend went 295 miles with my 21kw genny running and used 33 gallons. I have the 8v71 with a 6 speed spicer. The last time I pulled a camper with my avalanche I was getting 7 to 8 miles a gallon so don't let the fuel scare you if you ever plan to really use it sometimes. The fuel will change some with weight and foot controle. This is a 43 year old bus but it is still on the road looking good. So I would be more scared of a 20 year old class c. They just don't hold up. These buses are made for outside. Now a new inside may not be for you because of cost but think about what you have, all oak. With a little labor you can fix how dark it is. Just don't let her talk you into PINK. You will loose everything when it comes time to sell. ;D The shifting is easy to figure out and once on the highway there is not much of it unless your in the mountains. I drive for hours without taking it out of 6th. In the end you may spend as much on a class c but you will never have you same investment holding up. AS Ace says, your driving skills on something this big should be your most driving factor.
Quote from: bevans6 on November 10, 2010, 08:45:42 AM
My MC-5C with the same power train gets 6.5 mpg on a good day, and couldn't do 80 mph if it fell off a cliff - it's governed to 70 or so.
Wow Brian, that surprises me. I would have thought you could get closer to 10. A friend of mine gets 11 in his MC9 with an 8-71. I am also looking at an MC5 as well set up the same way. I was counting on more than that for mileage. I currently have a gas Wanderlodge that gets 5.5. The horrid mileage and lack of storage are the biggest reasons we are looking to make a change.
Marc
As far as I'm concerned, fuel mileage in a bus is a funny subject. If an MC-9 is getting 11 mpg running on a highway at 65 - 70 mph, or going through the Virginia hills/mountains with a two stroke 8v-71 then I would probably call time out. Or it's getting 5 city, 6 highway - that's 11 mpg isn't it?
But I get an honest 6.5 in those conditions, towing a little car. No better, sometimes worse.
Brian
Just looked at the pics. Nice looking coach. I think the MC5 is the nicest looking MCI. I don't think $15k is too much if it's all the way up on it's feet.
Quote from: thejumpsuitman on November 10, 2010, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: bevans6 on November 10, 2010, 08:45:42 AM
My MC-5C with the same power train gets 6.5 mpg on a good day, and couldn't do 80 mph if it fell off a cliff - it's governed to 70 or so.
Wow Brian, that surprises me. I would have thought you could get closer to 10. A friend of mine gets 11 in his MC9 with an 8-71. I am also looking at an MC5 as well set up the same way. I was counting on more than that for mileage. I currently have a gas Wanderlodge that gets 5.5. The horrid mileage and lack of storage are the biggest reasons we are looking to make a change.
Marc
Me thinks an odometer calibration issue is at the root here as this number (11mpg in a MC9) is simply unheard of and I've been involved with and looking at buses for over a decade. My 96A3 with a year 2000 Cummins ISM gets 9.0 mpg when not towing and keeping the speed below 65mph. This is a modern 4 stroke engine. My best mileage was 10.5 on a tank where I was running 57 and had a tail wind almost the whole way. I just don't see how 11 mpg in an MC9 is possible unless it is completely stripped and running with the wind going downhill out of Denver running a 4 stroke engine (or a 2 stroke
improved by Don Fairchild).
I would say that it is worth 15k only if it is in great condition and you really want a Spicer. It is certainly a dependable transmission but totally impractical. Over and over, you will see posts on this board about looking to change the Spicers out. You will never hear of someone, except for the loyalty factor, that actually wants one. Switching it out to an automatic will cost 10K- 15k which would make that bus about double underwater. And that would be if everything else is perfect. Since you already know that the interior is no good, you can guess that there will be other issues as well. A 25 year old rebuild is not a rebuild at all, it is just an old engine. You could be approaching 40k before you get it to where you will be happy. I have been through it. At least get one with an automatic to start with. They can be found for around the same price.
Quote from: Lin on November 10, 2010, 09:43:00 AM
I would say that it is worth 15k only if it is in great condition and you really want a Spicer. It is certainly a dependable transmission but totally impractical. Over and over, you will see posts on this board about looking to change the Spicers out. You will never hear of someone, except for the loyalty factor, that actually wants one. Switching it out to an automatic will cost 10K- 15k which would make that bus about double underwater. And that would be if everything else is perfect. Since you already know that the interior is no good, you can guess that there will be other issues as well. A 25 year old rebuild is not a rebuild at all, it is just an old engine. You could be approaching 40k before you get it to where you will be happy. I have been through it. At least get one with an automatic to start with. They can be found for around the same price.
No question if you were looking to upgrade to that level, keep looking. I could only see this as a good purchase to be used completely as is, or only minor renovating.
It is a personal thing on the Spicer. They are a little tricky, but I think they are kind of fun to drive. And once you are rolling down the highway, the shifting is mostly over. Some people hate shifting all together. It's a personal call.
Quote from: Brian Diehl on November 10, 2010, 09:41:36 AM
Quote from: thejumpsuitman on November 10, 2010, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: bevans6 on November 10, 2010, 08:45:42 AM
My MC-5C with the same power train gets 6.5 mpg on a good day, and couldn't do 80 mph if it fell off a cliff - it's governed to 70 or so.
Wow Brian, that surprises me. I would have thought you could get closer to 10. A friend of mine gets 11 in his MC9 with an 8-71. I am also looking at an MC5 as well set up the same way. I was counting on more than that for mileage. I currently have a gas Wanderlodge that gets 5.5. The horrid mileage and lack of storage are the biggest reasons we are looking to make a change.
Marc
Me thinks an odometer calibration issue is at the root here as this number (11mpg in a MC9) is simply unheard of and I've been involved with and looking at buses for over a decade. My 96A3 with a year 2000 Cummins ISM gets 9.0 mpg when not towing and keeping the speed below 65mph. This is a modern 4 stroke engine. My best mileage was 10.5 on a tank where I was running 57 and had a tail wind almost the whole way. I just don't see how 11 mpg in an MC9 is possible unless it is completely stripped and running with the wind going downhill out of Denver running a 4 stroke engine (or a 2 stroke improved by Don Fairchild).
I'm sure you are right, Brian. But my point was that the difference from even 9.0 down to 6.5 is a huge difference. I'd certainly be happy to tootle down the road at 55 to get another couple mpg's.
My trips all seem to be where I need to be somewhere else, and not enough time to get there. 1200 miles in two days, 21 hours of driving including meal and fuel stops, and that, at the end of the day, contributes to lousy fuel mileage without question! And my engine is a bit tired, planning to do a bit of a refresh this winter if I can get myself organized to pull it before the snow flies...
Brian
Ace, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. Me stating that "I was scared", however, stems from the fact that I've never driven anything longer than an extended cab pickup. Towards the end of the test drive I was feeling much more comfortable.
thejumpsuitman....my sentiments exactly. When I first saw this thing, I fell in love instantly. I wasn't even looking to buy an RV. I was with a buddy who was looking for a fifth wheel.
As far as shifting is concerned, I'm not overly worried about it. As I stated in the first post, it was a b**ch, but again....by the end of the test drive I was shifting from first to second with virtually no problem.
I'm sure I am in the minority, but I love the older buses, manual transmissions notwithstanding. It's just a different experience. I love the curved lines, bullet lights, shiny stainless or old, dull aluminum... I'd be the type of person to remove the update caps to go back original. And if you are content to live with an older conversion, there is just less technology to go wrong. (Plenty else to go wrong in general, of course). Like I said before, this deal is for the one who appreciates this old coach for what it is.
Marc
I have two 4104 one with a 6v92 and v730 and one with the 6-71 and 4 speed. Out on the open road the 6-71 runs easier and is more fun but it just does not have enough gears for camp grounds and getting around in tight places with the toad. so it stays home and the auto goes.
The less- fuel mileage is worth the difference.
uncle ned
bwze not to sound like I'm talking you out of anything but it takes a LOT more to feel comfortable behind the wheel of ANY large vehicle than a single trip around the parking lot!
Driving is only a small part of feeling comfy. Have you thought about what or how you would handle 20k lbs +- when you have an unexpected blowout? How about air line failure? If that occurs, possible no brakes OR brakes when you don't want them to be applied such as in the middle of a busy highway or interstate!
Contrary to what a lot of people say (think) these beast are not what you can just jump in and go to the corner store without first making sure everything works. It's a little different than your p/u. lights go bad from just sitting. Air leaks occur for no apparent reason etc etc.. The point I'm trying to make is, if you don't know diesel's, buses, air systems, 12v/24v and manual shifting, then either do us and yourself a favor and take a course on mostly driving, learn the basics of air systems, and the mechanic's (which you can learn here) before you attempt to get on the highway with your family AND OTHER drivers! Don't let a potentially good buy and a dated oak interior be the selling point! Look at many buses/coaches before you buy and have someone more experienced loo it over for you from top to bottom and front to rear! THAT will be money saved in the long run!
Quote from: Ace on November 10, 2010, 11:15:23 AM
bwze not to sound like I'm talking you out of anything but it takes a LOT more to feel comfortable behind the wheel of ANY large vehicle than a single trip around the parking lot!
Driving is only a small part of feeling comfy. Have you thought about what or how you would handle 20k lbs +- when you have an unexpected blowout? How about air line failure? If that occurs, possible no brakes OR brakes when you don't want them to be applied such as in the middle of a busy highway or interstate!
Contrary to what a lot of people say (think) these beast are not what you can just jump in and go to the corner store without first making sure everything works. It's a little different than your p/u. lights go bad from just sitting. Air leaks occur for no apparent reason etc etc.. The point I'm trying to make is, if you don't know diesel's, buses, air systems, 12v/24v and manual shifting, then either do us and yourself a favor and take a course on mostly driving, learn the basics of air systems, and the mechanic's (which you can learn here) before you attempt to get on the highway with your family AND OTHER drivers! Don't let a potentially good buy and a dated oak interior be the selling point! Look at many buses/coaches before you buy and have someone more experienced loo it over for you from top to bottom and front to rear! THAT will be money saved in the long run!
Not a bad idea to take a course, that's for sure... Especially on air brakes, preparing, etc. But I remember years ago when I first got behind the wheel of a 34 ft. class a motorhome, it freaked me out! Just driving down the road and back was weird... However, that tiny sample of an experience prepared me for the next time I got behind the wheel, and it was MUCH MUCH easier the next time for me.
I agree, not a bad idea, but like you say once you become more acclimated to the situation, naturally you will become more adept and knowledgeable about how to handle the rig on the road. And of course, safety should be the first thing on your mind.....hence the "freaked out" condition you find yourself in the first time behind the wheel. I don't think "freaked out" and unsafe go with each other. In those cases, your senses are heightened to extreme measures and you are, if anything, overly cautious (that was the case in my situation anyway).
Classes would definitely be a pro for most newcomers IMHO, but others tend to learn more by steeping themselves in the environment after careful observation and extensive research. I tend to fall into that second category most of the time. Since first seeing this machine six weeks ago, I've attempted (and have been very successful) to research everything I could find on the subject of driving, shifting and maintenance. I'm also extremely lucky to have contact with the previous owner who has been a wealth of information on all of those subjects. Given a second chance at a test drive, I feel I would do much better and feel much more comfortable with the situation. Only problem is, it's two and half hours one way to get to this beast.....hence the reasoning behind trying to make the decision based more on whether the cost is decent and the interior updating are feasible. Yes, I'm a "little scared", and that was first and foremost comment.....but only about the learning curve to handle something this large safely and efficiently. I'd like to think that I've got a pretty good track record with this type of situation though, but I do sincerely appreciate the advice that is being given.
I will buy the steering wheel from you if you buy the bus and later decide you want to go to a smaller aftermarket wheel. ;D
You may want to take a look at this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-MCI-MC5A-Challenger-Diesel-Bus-Conversion-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19c0cfbcb4QQitemZ110609022132QQptZRVsQ5fCampers (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-MCI-MC5A-Challenger-Diesel-Bus-Conversion-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19c0cfbcb4QQitemZ110609022132QQptZRVsQ5fCampers)
Thanks Ace. Yeah, saw it here http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f534/1966-motor-coach-industries-mc5a-challenger-class-motorhome-rv-noblesville-1155163.html (http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f534/1966-motor-coach-industries-mc5a-challenger-class-motorhome-rv-noblesville-1155163.html) the other day. It was on eBay a couple of days ago too at a higher price. Not sure what happened with that auction. Looks to be a good bus with pretty good potential, if you can get it a reasonable price.