There was a thread on tank venting the other day. Sean pointed out there is a code ( imagine that lol ) NFPA 1192 that covers RVs. You can download this code for 30 to 40 dollars or...........
For general knowledge you can access this standard on line for free. Go to the following link :
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=1192 (http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=1192)
In the center near the bottom it says " View 2008 Edition on line ". When you click on that link it will open a new page.
You must go to this registration page and follow the bouncing ball. Once your registration is complete you will be sent an e-mail. Once you follow the directions in the e-mail you will receive access to the standard. You may not copy or save it. You can only view it on line. But until you decide to buy a copy this will get you started.
Hope this helps,
Frank
The "code" is voluntary.
Geoff,
By no means am I telling anyone they need to use it. I am just trying to save money for anyone who is interested in looking at it. I am a cheep old geezer and see no need to spend the cash if you don't need to.
Frank
Don't they have it on Netflix yet?
Quote from: Geoff on October 25, 2010, 05:19:12 PM
The "code" is voluntary.
That goes state by state. In many states NFPA 1192 has been adopted into law, and in those states, it is mandatory.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Here we go again, Sean, now explain a variance to me. Code is subject to local variances, if it were law it would not have variances allowed, and they are allowed by law. Administrative Law Judge Charles Goodman, 97th district court in L'Anse, Michigan will explain the difference if you are confused, pm me for his phone number, I've talked to him and he is a very nice and patient man, very much more so than I am.
I do not understand the almost visceral reaction every time someone mentions "Codes". There goes the damn gummint (probably liberals) telling me what to do again.
Code violations on your own property are not generally crimes, in the sense that you will go to jail, only that licensing authority and/or insurance can make things difficult for you if you have a fire or other catastrophe.
Keep in mind that every line of (almost) every code is a memorial to someone who died because something was not done right, and that (almost) every line is nothing more than common sense.
It's your bus, do whatever you want, but don't jump on those who do want to follow the codes.
What irritates me is a person saying that a code is the 'law', this is not the case, a code is a guideline and not a statute, a statute cannot be modified in anyway, it's cast in stone as to how it will be done, a code is a guideline that is a suggested means to do a project of some sort, it can be modified by a variance and can differ from community to community and from state to state, this is how it was explained to me yesterday by the very person whose job it is to interpret it, an administrative law judge, I realize many people misguidedly think that it is the law and as such proclaim it to be law but that doesn't change the fact that they are guidelines and guidelines only. In any group of people you will find a few that imagine themselves to be a doctor, or an engineer or whatever and that segment will proclaim whatever it is that makes them feel comfortable as being cast in stone because at some time they may have been told that by somebody else who may not have understood the situation completely. An example of it could be a wiring project, depending on the kind of wire used and the particular application there may be several perfectly acceptable ways to get the job done and stay within the accepted guidelines for doing it.
I don't about the codes being voluntary building box stores for for 20 + plus years the big 3 codes were a part of the permit and before you received the CO and final they were met I know the stores were not a bus,I would think one would want some type guide line to go by converting a bus YMMD
good luck
An example is burial of wire, how many acceptable ways are there to bury a wire, it depends on the wire and if the wire is to be encased in a conduit of some sort, some wire is perfectly fine with direct burial while others may require encapsulation in a protective wrap like conduit, this is where code come into play, it serves as a guideline on which choice might be best given different circumstances but the final choice may be one of several possibles, that is why communities are given the latitude to apply codes in varying ways thru variances.
Quote from: cody on October 26, 2010, 05:47:59 AM
<SNIP> An example of it could be a wiring project, depending on the kind of wire used and the particular application there may be several perfectly acceptable ways to get the job done and stay within the accepted guidelines for doing it.
AFAIK, there is only one area of legitimate controversy as far as wiring methods for our buses, and that is the use of "Boat Wire". We all know that it is safe if properly installed and is not approved simply because of the expense to the manufacturer to get approval for a very limited market. So, even though it is technically not approved, no one is going to fault the use of it.
On the other hand, there are busnuts who advocate the use of extension cords for wiring a bus. Clearly a blatant violation of the NEC and not a safe practice.
Common sense works fine here if you clearly understand why a particular code section exists and that your proposed method is safe, then I don't have a problem with it.
Of course, there is also stupidity and little we can do about it.
I have seen with my own eyes, improperly secured propane tanks in the same compartment as the batteries, inadequate wire sizes, improper or no fuses, etc.
We all know this is a "hot" subject. Most have a strong opinion on this subject and anything you say will not change that opinion, so let's keep this civil and respect everyone's opinion, even if we do not agree with it. Your friendly moderator
Jack, its for that reason that I contacted a federal judge who specializes in this, we can all argue until the cows come home, he clearly has what must be concidered the legal understanding of the subject and is available to enlighten anyone that needs it explained. A wannabe doctor is no better than a wannabe engineer, each envisions themselves as having the final word and absolute knowledge on a particular subject but are not empowered to interpret it legally, even 10 different lawyers can argue it 10 different ways but the judge is the only one that can say which is correct. If you take a particular code for california and compare it to a simular code for hawaii, you'll find any number of differences and adjustments to it, thats why it isn't listed as law, it can be changed to meet local needs.
Quote from: cody on October 26, 2010, 05:47:59 AM
What irritates me is a person saying that a code is the 'law', this is not the case, a code is a guideline and not a statute, a statute cannot be modified in anyway, it's cast in stone as to how it will be done,
Sorry but you are completely wrong on this, and you do everyone a disservice to keep proclaiming it.
A quick Google search will provide all the information needed, try "difference between laws and codes" for a start.
Maybe its time to quit being a "wannabe lawyer" ;)
Cliff
I'll stick by what judge goodman said, he's the one that makes the call. A law cannot be altered by a variance, a code can be, a code can carry a monetary penalty just as a late library book can but it still doesn't make it a law in the eyes of the court, thats according to the federal judge, he is in a far better position to make a legal interpretation than google or any of us, he's not a wannabe. The judge is the real thing. I won't be pursuing this any further, if I do I'll just get mad and quit the board so I'll just leave it alone, go with whatever interpretation that you like, I'll go with the judges opinion, I really don't care if anyone wants to wire their batteries with zip cord, thats their business and not mine, I don't care anymore, go worship your own demigods and I'll find my own. I didn't think anyone would have the guts to answer my question about variances.
Quote from: cody on October 26, 2010, 02:16:42 PMA law cannot be altered by a variance, a code can be, I didn't think anyone would have the guts to answer my question about variances.
Your confusing the Federal, State, Local and Industry codes and using too broad a brush to explain whats happening.
You can get a variance to a code, but, if you violate the code without it, you have broken the law.
Usually variances on Federal and State codes are for one time uses in declared emergencies or some other special circumstance, the variance is generally for the scope of a project or emergency only and not for perpetuity. Example-we need to cross a protected wetland to get survivors out.
Local codes such as Zoning and Building are what most folks are familiar with. Variances to these are granted by petition and only when some extenuating circumstance is met. Zoning-Your lot is not big enough to be granted commercial zoning, they may grant it after notifying all adjacent property and holding a hearing, this would only apply to that piece, this time. Building-You may want to build a large garage that puts you in the lot line set back, same thing, they notify your neighbors and hold a hearing, if approved, one time variance.
Its easy to see the difference in codes made to keep people alive and safe, such as in the NFPA or NEC and others and why your not going to get a variance on those, and the ones that deal with set backs, zoning, etc. and why you can sometimes get a variance on them.
Cliff
The judge seems to differ, when I read him the responses earlier over the phone he wanted to know what those guys were smoking, I'll side with him over google.
I am agreeing with Cody and "da judge".... I was in this same debate years ago on the "old board" and what it all boils down to is that unless there is a government authority that regulates personal bus conversions, codes do not apply and have no legal authority over what you do to your bus. I could go on but it doesn't matter what you say someone is not going to agree, and we are not in court to argue our case.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on October 26, 2010, 05:34:27 PM
I am agreeing with Cody and "da judge".... I was in this same debate years ago on the "old board" and what it all boils down to is that unless there is a government authority that regulates personal bus conversions, codes do not apply and have no legal authority over what you do to your bus. I could go on but it doesn't matter what you say someone is not going to agree, and we are not in court to argue our case.
--Geoff
Geoff,
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that on a personal bus conversion that these codes can be enforced or that there is an arm of government actively enforcing them.
Most if not all only apply to commercial converters and RV manufacturers.
I do think it is in our best interest to understand why these codes are in place and to also understand we could be denied protection from liability and assume all risk if it was shown that our equipment/bus did not meet the minimum standards in place when we titled, converted or purchased it.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, just ask "Da Judge"
Anyone who has dealt with insurance companies understands that we are in an adversarial position when it comes to a claim. Following established and court tested codes only strengthens our case, if needed.
In the end, everyone has to decide for themselves. I hope you chose wisely
Cliff
Maybe it's time to have the "administrative law judge" call me - I'll straighten him out - FWIW
Niles, I pmmed Judge Goodmans number to you, it's the 97th district court in L'Anse.
Is this the same as the "probate" judge?
http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/500309.html?nav=5006 (http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/500309.html?nav=5006)
Yep, same judge but that article was 2 years ago, since then phil has retired and goodman has replaced another judge, in a small area like this judges often fill in for other judges and perform many duties simply because the court system is not that active, I think we have less than 10 judges, both local and federal in the whole Upper Penninsula, in the courtroom when libby and I got our divorce finalized the only people in the courtroom were Judge Tim Brennan and libby and I and jamie and the court recorder, jamie and the court recorder were on the side gabbing and jamie was being hired at that time to do transcription work and tim came down and sat at our table, he had been my dads attorney for years and I think the divorce hit him harder than us, before he granted the divorce he asked jamie which parent she wanted cusotdy of. In a weeks time there are only about 6 cases heard up here in any particular court room, not much going on. What you guys have to realize is that up here crime is illegal so we don't do that stuff.
An interesting side note to the article niles posted, it mentions an attorney nancarrow, he just charged himself with embezzlement of between 50K and 100K, http://www.miningjournal.net/page/content.detail/id/554946.html (http://www.miningjournal.net/page/content.detail/id/554946.html) he is in private practive and the only attorney in that practice, how or why do you charge yourself with embezzlement. Here is what I heard on the charges, he is the only lawyer in that private practice and it's already his money but I heard he is in some kind of IRS hot water so he is charging himself with embezzlement which places the money out of the reach of the IRS due to a crime scenerio and he has the option of dropping the charges and walking away free before court, doncha love lawyers? I bet he runs for political office at some point.
Quote from: cody on October 26, 2010, 09:47:34 PM
... how or why do you charge yourself with embezzlement.
To establish his credentials for a run at a political career?
Thats my guess too mike.
Cliff,
Sounds like you have first hand experience in dealing with codes in an official or professional capacity - vs. a simple opinion propped up with a phone call.
It may be semantics, but around here, if you find yourself in court for a code violation, codes are law. :o
Just because big brother isn't currently or actively enforcing a law does not mean one is immune from the consequences that may arise from violations. . . .
As has been mentioned, when it comes to questions concerning personal responsibility & liability, do you want to be shown as 'reasonable & prudent' or reckless & careless?
With all those who express contempt for "the code" when building their conversion, is there any wonder why :
- a "professional" conversion brings more $$$ when it comes time to sell when a home made job gets so little?
- some campgrounds have age rules?
- insurance can be difficult to collect on?
- it is difficult to find repair facilities that will work on them?
BTW, I'm not advocating strict adherence to the code, but I am encouraging understanding & following the intent of the code.
Lets be safe & not add to the danger for others who share the road.
PS, there are statutes concerning certain highway safety standards a vehicle must meet. I doubt calling it a privately owned RV will exempt you from those either. . . .
When I had some electrical work done recently I spoke to the master electrician about this (codes related to house electrical, that is, not to RV's) and since he had a new apprentice with him he elaborated a bit. In his view, codes are fully binding on him, as a licensed electrician he must comply with codes as if there were law per the terms of his license. But homeowners aren't as fully bound. You are supposed to get a permit for electrical work and you are supposed to have it inspected, and if you get caught doing something wrong you can be forced to remove or fix the incorrect work, but you can't be charged with breaking a law, just with violating a code.
My view is that codes have the force of law for licensed professionals and manufacturers, but less so for private persons.
Brian
Kyle, I appreciate your expressing an opinion here on this but I'm not sure if codes would apply unless a person actually had road worthy vehicles, from what I hear your conversions tend to lean more towards the yard ornament variety, I don't know about down your way but up here, salvage yards must be hidden from public view behind a fence. I would tend to think a judicial legal opinion would count for more than a simple opinion. This is getting boring, all you guys are doing is repeating the same stuff over and over, not even a judge will change your mind, all the information has been provided, it can be verified but then that would destroy your arguements so what is the use or the point, this is done.
Quote from: cody on October 27, 2010, 05:26:44 AM
. . . from what I hear your conversions tend to lean more towards the yard ornament variety, . . .
Another example of you making statements based on assumptions & hearsay, not fact.
I am stating my opinion as just that, my opinion. It is for the reader to determine if it has any merit & it doesn't bother me if someone chooses to disagree. I feel my opinions are capable of standing on their own, I don't need to phone a friend or have the endorsement of a judge to provide credibility.
My goal in this discussion is to encourage critical thought so that there are fewer unpleasant surprises later. The goals are very different if you are planning for 30 days vs. 30 years. Since I wish to leave as much as I can for my kids to use, I feel it prudent to build in such a way that others can use & repair in a sensible manner - this means following accepted standards which is easiest when you follow the intent of the code.
So you can hear it from the source, I don't own anything I would call a conversion. I own lots of cool old crap that has potential. I love & am loved by my wonderful wife & awesome kids. I am enjoying a fantastic life & have friends that I can count on & trust to be there if needed. I have great neighboors who stop by frequently to chat & assist or receive assistance with various projects.
I also enjoy the rewards of responsible actions & preparation. Fortunately, on those few occasions when I had to experience the results of rash behaviour, I was able to learn a few things & my life wasn't ruined, nor was I left bitter.
Concerning code violations, a city can do lots of things if you violate the code, be it grass height, number of RVs allowed [their definition of RV includes boats, camper trailers, motor homes, utility trailers, ATVs, etc & you are allowed only one (1) in my city], or build a fence too high, or improperly wire a house . . . .
A code violation may not be breaking the law, but it can carry significant penalties just the same. Some of those penalties may not be realized until you want to sell. (or the insurance company looks into a claim, or a liability lawyer comes looking for a 'responsible party'.
BTW dan, you aren't the only one who is friends with lawyers & judges.
If you do not obey all the codes, your babies and grand babies will be born with no hair and no teeth.
from 'da judge', "after reviewing the scope of this thread it appears the confusion is contained within the definition of a law as opposed to an administrative rule, in a nutshell, a law requires legislative review, a passing vote and then the signature of the governing authority to be enacted, an administrative rule only requires the action of a commitee or board empowered to review and establish guidelines for the particular area in question, the duties of an administrative judge is to arbitrate disputes in how the administrative rule is defined in particular instances, a law carries penalties that can include not only monatary sanctions but also up to and including incarceration, a violation of an administrative rule can carry monatary penalties and other sanctions including stop orders but doeesn't carry the weight of law, the weight of law can come into effect in regards to gross negligence in some cases where the disregard of an administrative rule results in a violation of a criminal law but the criminal law is not a part of the administrative rule, but a separate issue that is dealt with under a separate set of rules. Examples of administrative rules could be penalties assessed with late payments of a contractual issue, however that does not place it under the scope of a criminal issue unless the action results in the additional violation of a crinimal law. Building codes, NEC codes, etc are administrative rules and not laws, hopefully this clears up some of the issues under contention."
What happens when the code is used to (or referenced) draft a bill that is voted into law by state legislature?
(edit to add:)
I'll bet that if you don't satisfy the administrative imposed fine or sanction you'd be in violation of a criminal or civil law. - which could result in incarceration. Seems like semantics to me. . . . Same result, just different words used to describe the type of rule that was broken.
Seems to me (& this is only my opinion) that those who hold the most contempt for the codes or laws are those with the least to loose.
I don't know but I can find out.
Thank You for clearing that up. With what you said I think I will follow the codes very close. If I hook the ground and neutral together and hook the bus to a bad pole and kill the wife when see steps out to see what the hell is taking me so long. I will go to prison for killing her and not for not sticking to the code. But if I did what the code said I would not have killed her.
Thank You Wayne
And therein is the basis of the "code compliance" viewpoint. While it may not technically be a "law" and doesn't directly have risk of jail time, most folks regard anything that can result in the govt. issuing fines, especially a large one, as law. And as noted by "da judge", if something was done that was not code compliant and something bad happened that could in any way be related to the non-compliant part, it can open up possibilities of criminal prosecution/punishment.
Rusty's is a good example. Here is another, suppose improper wiring causes your bus to catch fire while you are at one of those crowded campgrounds where your neighbor is "too close". Miraculously you survive but a child in the flimsy S&S motorhome next to you dies when your burning bus ignites their motorhome. Negligent homicide could apply. Another example. Suppose you make modifications to the air system on your bus using non DOT approved components. Sometime in the future you have an accident and a family in a small car ahead of you gets crushed between your bus and the truck ahead of them. If investigators notice the non DOT elements of your brake related system, vehicular homicide can come into play.
Of course it's semantic's, thats why we have lawyers, to sort it all out for mortals like us. In michigan we have 14 definitions of death but to me dead is dead, in the prison system we even had policies to follow after death, if an inmate died on friday, he would wear leg irons and belly chains until such a time as a coroner was available to declare him dead, a doctor has the power to determine death in all situations except prisoners, that requires a coroner, we often had a prisoner in the freezer complete with restraints and an armed escort from friday until monday or tuesday or whenever the coroner was available to declare him officially dead, the prisoner would also be cited for not being in his cell at count time, even tho we knew he was in the freezer, with a formal count every 2 hours that amounted to a lot of major tickets issued, make perfect sence, doesnt it.
Thats true mike but the code isn't law tho it can lead to a violation of law it isn't law by itself, makes perfect sence to me.
Yup, but if a govt. employed individual is able to issue me a citation that leads to the govt. demanding that I turn over $500 to them, it is of little consolation to me that it is a code enabling it, not a law. If I refuse to pay it because it isn't a law, they can still apply a lien which will impact selling the item in question, damage credit, employment applications, rent/lease applications, etc. And that doesn't even get into the chain reaction into the criminal courts if it causes harm to others.
All that said, most people will never have a problem from it as long as they practice common sense in the work on it and use of it. But I think it is wise for someone to know what the legally correct way is and what the possible consequences of doing it differently are so they can make an informed decision. However, if they do it a different way and end up facing govt. enforced consequences, it won't matter whether they knew about the code or not, they will still be subject to the penalties whether under the code or under a resulting criminal charge. Hence, I appreciate those that remind us all of the "code" way of doing things from time to time.
Quite simply a "code" is the "law" codified - FWIW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_(law) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_(law))
Quote from: niles500 on October 27, 2010, 11:03:55 AM
Quite simply a "code" is the "law" codified - FWIW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_(law) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_(law))
buzz killer ;D
My greatest disappointment in trying to explain the difference between an administrative rule and a legislative law is that I over estimated the level of comprehension.
Cody, I think the main thing is that most don't care what it is technically called. If it is govt. imposed and enforced with penalties then it is effectively "law" to the average person. To rob Shakespeare - A law by any other name would still be painful when one is caught violating it.
;D bus ;)
.
It occurs to me that someone may be having trouble with semantics & pragmatic awareness.
Legal definitions may matter when in court, but out here in the real world - it is the effect that really matters.
If we ask for an aspirin for a headache, do we really care if it made by Bayer or if it is generic?
For all except the most anal, it matters not what a 'rule' is legally classified as (law, code, ordinance, etc. ) if you must go to court to contest an alleged violation of that 'rule'. Especially if conviction involves sanctions that are imposed & enforced by big brother.
If you only know how to use a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
The most important thing we can do is do it safely! We can argue till the cows come home, but in the real world safety is first! Personally I would think that most of us do not want to put us and our loved ones in harms way by cutting corners.
If "Da Book" has guidelines that give us methods to follow, so be it. It's for our own good.
Paul
.
The word CODE here on this board gets about the same reaction as oil and antifreeze or calling your mother a bad name LOL
In this thread, I've been trying to follow the reasoning used in the posts explaining how codes are different than laws.
It has been escaping me. Then I figured out why, but I need an analogy to explain.
Picture a room that is empty except that the floor is covered with mouse traps, each loaded with an identical ping pong ball.
Now, toss in an identical ping pong ball.
I'll bet I'm not the only one who can't follow the one tossed in the room . . . ;)
::) ;D 8)
.
I've deliberately stayed out of the thread Kyle but in the real world those of us who have actually been involved in drafting codes know that they are created by expert committees which really means that they are created by a committee. And then they are enacted by legislation. So while it may be technically correct to say that they aren't actually law its a spurious argument because they clearly have the force of law if they are enacted by legislation. The code that I am intimately familiar with is B620 which is a CSA standard for pressure vessels. That code is about 2 inches thick printed in 10 pt on both sides of 8-1/2 x 11 paper. The legislation that enacts it takes up about 5 pages in the gazette. I think you can do the math.
Whether or not a code is law depends on what the definition of "is" is.
18027.3 (a) (3):
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=18001-19000&file=18025-18034 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=18001-19000&file=18025-18034)
.
Quote from: cody on October 28, 2010, 12:26:02 PM
And your point being that their are rules for manufactured homes and rules that manufactures of those homes and other units are required to follow? Still falls under administrative rules. legislative committees formulate those and adopt them, thats a given, show me the signature that changes it from an administrative rule to a law.
dan,
As I understand it, there are local, state, & federal laws, and there are different procedures for enacting laws vs. codes & there are negative sanctions available to encourage compliance of either.
So, allow me to ask it another way, what is the difference as it applies to the individual? Does the fact that it is an 'administrative rule' mean it does not apply? To me court is court, be it traffic, municipal, state, or federal. . . .
Is this simply a matter of a lay person lumping all 'rules with mandatory compliance' under one category they call 'laws'? (Like someone would refer to his meds as "heart pills" instead of using the actual name of the drug.)
I went through a divorce in NC...the ex said her boyfriend was staying at our house, sleeping in our bed while I was working. So did here shrink. I had done no wrong. (No girlfriends, relationships, etc.)
'Da Judge' said to pay her $750.00 a month, keep her in insurance, give her her car and the house.
So when I read where, 'Da Judge' says this or that...you may think I could care less about what a so called judge says! You would be right! (That deal cost over a quarter million!)
Now, when I read there is a code for this or that, I follow it! Why you might ask...well I'll tell you why...it is the same as law. Period. I have worked for some of the most recognized liars...scuse me...lawyers in this land. I know what they do when things were not done right. So that said, I don't care what you call it...if it is a 'code'...it is the same as a law!
(By the way, one of the liars I did work for was trying to get a certain Johnny Reid Edwards elected president. Aint you glad that didn't happen!)
.
This has got to be the dumbest argument we have ever had here, and we have had some beauts.
dan,
Based on what I've read here & past history, I'm not the one who has a problem with comprehension skills.
I'm also not the one who is casting personal insults.
You keep posting you won't continue & yet you post again. . . .
I see no reason for me to continue with this if questions are going to return personal insults.
Quote from: cody on October 28, 2010, 02:41:56 PM
Kyle, there is no way that you could possibly understand any of this so I'll not pursue it any further, go back to your loving children that you are leaving the legacy for and hope that the government will let you keep your collection of fine trophys, I believe you stated that the government will only let you have one rv? is that the reason you've graced others property with the carcuses you drag home? The simple fact that the government has limited you to possessing only one should tell you something, it should be apparent at some point but not in your finely crafted world.