It looks like my start batteries are shot again. This will be the fourth set in four years. How do I stop murdering these things? It gets expensive at $350 per set. I doubt I would make it to Bussin' 11 with these batteries without resorting to the generator and a charger a few times.
I tried to start the bus last weekend and the batteries were too weak to start it. I hooked up my Battery Tender plus that does 2.5 amp at 24 volt. I ran that for a week. I started the bus yesterday and it barely started even after charging for a week. This morning the voltmeter was showing 16 volts even though I pulled the disconnect yesterday. I hooked up my 24 volt charger and got the bus running today.
The alternator appears to charging as the voltmeter shows almost 28 volts when running and a digital multimeter shows 27.8 volts. Now, the disconnect does not disconnect everything. The turn signals, DDEC, passenger clock, and some other items get juice no matter what.
Do you have anything maintaining their charge in between uses? Either a maintainer or manually checking and charging them monthly?
Brian,
To begin with, that little charger is not going to anything if the batteries are too low to begin with. It is intended only as a maintenance charger to keep good batteries topped off.
Quote from: belfert on October 17, 2010, 10:45:23 AM
.. Now, the disconnect does not disconnect everything. The turn signals, DDEC, passenger clock, and some other items get juice no matter what.
I think I'd be looking at those "some other iterms" to see what's draining your batteries. Don't trust your disconnect, either. I've seen them leak when shut off. Test it.
Is your bus 12v or 24v?
One of my starting batteries now has a bad cell. It's been installed for 8 years. I had to replace the other one in spring 2009. It came with the bus in 2000. I keep
them on float from my inverter when parked and plugged in. Seems to work well for my batteries.
craig
What kills start batteries is a slow trickle discharge. You need to store them fully charged and have a maintainer charge on all the time, or routine recharges every month or so. Pull the ground cable off when you store them, that should stop the discharge. Put couple of decent smart 12 volt chargers on and see if you can get them to recover - a week or so with a 10 amp charger smart charger may do wonders. I had both my start batteries discharged almost to zero, and I was able to recover them both.
Brian
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on October 17, 2010, 10:50:37 AM
Do you have anything maintaining their charge in between uses? Either a maintainer or manually checking and charging them monthly?
System is 24 volt with a vanner for 12 volt stuff. I normally have a 2.5 amp Battery Tender Plus connected. There was a period of about a week or so recently where I didn't have the charger plugged in and the bus wouldn't start after that week so I plugged the Battery Tender in and left it for a week. The bus barely started yesterday.
I suspect the batteries are shot now as the bus sat for under 24 hours from yesterday to today and the voltage dropped to 16 volts or less. The bus sat out in the desert for three days last month and it started just fine after three days with no charger. Now, the bus had been driven more or less continuously for 2,000 miles prior to sitting for those three days.
Brian look for a separate switch for your ddec and other 12 volt needs.I have one on the 89 prevo in the top of the back bay close to the vanner..I use a set up like in a bass boat to maintain batteries has 4 separate 10 amp on demand chargers that charge batteries as needed individually.. my batteries last about 6 yrs without a problem.using 4 ea series 31 batteries 54$ each from local supplier:definitely not the high end batteries. add a total system batt disconnect switch to isolate batteries altogether..Bob
I should have plugged in my Battery Tender Plus as soon as we got home, but I didn't. It is a pain to run an extension cord back there after every time the bus gets used so it doesn't always happen right away.
I really need to get an outlet installed for the charger so it just works any time the generator is going, or any time the bus is hooked to shore power. Will it hurt to run the charger while the bus is running?
on some systems it will confuse voltage regulator if hooked up when running and you will get generator warning light on.try it
You could use a solar battery charger for float and save the effort of bringing out the cord right away. However, it does seem that there is a load taking the batteries down. I could leave mine for several weeks easily, and they still crank.
Quote from: robertglines1 on October 17, 2010, 11:06:54 AM
Brian look for a separate switch for your ddec and other 12 volt needs.I have one on the 89 prevo in the top of the back bay close to the vanner..I use a set up like in a bass boat to maintain batteries has 4 separate 10 amp on demand chargers that charge batteries as needed individually.. my batteries last about 6 yrs without a problem.using 4 ea series 31 batteries 54$ each from local supplier:definitely not the high end batteries. add a total system batt disconnect switch to isolate batteries altogether..Bob
What kind of supplier has group 31s that cheap? Sam's Club charges closer to $100. The cheapest I have found is at a local heavy truck dealer for about $80 each. Even the $80 ones only have a 1 year warranty.
I'm pretty sure there isn't a second switch. The manufacturer wants that stuff to stay powered.
belfert, My batteries won't last 3 days from my drains I have. I keep a 1/2 wrench next to my batteries and disconnect them when I park. I do not have a 24v charger so I use my 12v smart charger and jumper cables to charge both batteries at one time. I have let my bus sit a month and it starts up just fine when I get back to it. When I bought the bus my alternator did not work. The PO had a 24v charger wired in because he always ran the genny. It is an entertainer. But even still I could drive the bus for about 2 days before I would have to charge the batteries. When I would stop for the night I would just hook up the charger to the genny and be good a couple of more days. I just had the alternator rebuilt the other day so I hope that is over.
Brian we've been also experienced the same problem with our Dina draining the batteries while parked for any more than a week even with the disconnect turned off!
While trying to find/fix the problem we've discovered Dina did some weird S**T with the way they set up the batteries and shut offs!
Because of their mixed voltage set up they needed more amps than the vanner supplies at the 12 tap so what they really did was basically a center tap between the tow 12 volt banks! But they have many small 12-18 gauge wires tied into where these hook up on the coach which literally makes it impossible to shut the power off completely!
I found this out when I thought I'd be slick and put a disconnect in the main ground cable. Wrong still connected through that center tap and all the little grounds still feeding the chassis system!
Now what I saw about two weeks ago on on of Carl's Dina's was he took out the 4 group 31's took the sheet metal battery box cover and cut the back half off. (took the hinged lid off, and cut the small piece still left at the back inside {toward engine} wall and then cut it loose around the back side toward the rear of the bus out) Then took and slid an 8D in the opening and toward the front of the bus and then the second 8D slides straight in the new cut out! Used one of the original wooden block hold downs in between them to secure them and put MCI (knife blade) style battery cut off switches in line on 12V tap and the main 24 positive connection. Seems to work!
Evidently I'm seeing that this "phantom draw" is a common problem on a Dina after some time and Carl has literally owned 30-40 of them over the yrs! So if Carl believes this is the best way to eliminate it, I sure ain't the one to argue with his experiences! ( I plan to duplicate his set up on ours in the near future! In the main time we make it a point to start all the buses at least once a week and let them run about 10 mins after starting them before shutting them off!)
FWIW ;D BK ;D
I have 2 group 31's for my start batteries, (5A-8V71) they only get charged off of my 24v alt. when running down the road. They are 4 years old, i don't use the disconnect switch, (probably should) and have never had a problem firing up. We just got to Yuma a little over a week ago and i will probably not start the bus again until the end of January if we go up to Quartzsite. If not then it will be either April or May when we leave. My last set of batteries were 8D's which were 8 years old when one died. I guess i am lucky. :)
Prevost is the same way. The 24/7 current from a phantom drain killed my 4 group 31's every year for the first 3 years until I talked to my buddy Nelson about what they do for this problem and since he advised me to simply install a 24 volt on-board marine battery charger. The best 200 bucks in the whole conversion. Keep in mind my bus stays plugged into my 50 amp service and after I get back from any trip, I plug the bus up and then plug my charger in the outlet in the bay and it stays on until I leave. I never keep it plugged in while the engine is running. It will overvharge if the genset is running. Ever since float charging my batteries, they stay fully charged a lot longer and all my lights are brighter!
That or just run the bus more often. :)
FWIW Dina's (what Brian, Ruthi, several associates and I have {1) Use a very silly and screwed up system they don't use mostly 24V stuff like the rest but a mixture of 12V and 24V components and a really screwy way of tying them together!
I guess when the buses are new and low mileage it's all good. But after time, & miles of use & abuse things start acting up and cause phantom draw's. Every Dina I have been around with comparable age/miles on it as Brian's, MANY of Carl's, Bobby's and ours it seems they get worse about this as time goes on.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Ace
That or just run the bus more often. :)
;)
Ace, I do have a three stage trickle charger. I just didn't plug it in right away after I got back from my trip. I've been using (or trying to use) the bus once a week or so recently, but once a week doesn't seem to be enough to keep the batteries up.
I lost two sets of batteries the first two winters I had the bus as they would get down to essentially zero voltage and freeze. The batteries made it through the last two winters with no issues after I got and used a Battery Tender Plus.
Ed, you have a much older bus than mine. There probably isn't anything that would draw power when the bus is turned off. I have all kinds of stuff that doesn't go through the disconnect as BK described and it draws power constantly.
I'm going to see if a 10 amp charger for a day or two won't revive the batteries. I would like to put off new batteries as long as I can.
Maybe work out how many amps you bus draws while sitting, and make sure your charger keeps up Personally I would just disconnect the ground as well as and install a smart "ish" charger.....actually it's cold up here, in the winter anything that isn't being used has the batteries stored inside above freezing.....a bit of a PITA with a bus but worth it.
Quote from: zubzub on October 17, 2010, 02:51:46 PM
Maybe work out how many amps you bus draws while sitting, and make sure your charger keeps up Personally I would just disconnect the ground as well as and install a smart "ish" charger.....actually it's cold up here, in the winter anything that isn't being used has the batteries stored inside above freezing.....a bit of a PITA with a bus but worth it.
Zub,
Problem with these Dina's is that you can't disconnect the ground as easily as one would think with the way they tap the center post for the 12V side and connect it to a board of relays and so on it creates a "floating" ground which still allows them to drain!
Brian yes put the 10 Amp charger on them for about 8-10 hrs (like before leaving for work) and then check them and see how they are. If they need more either leave them hooked up a while and check them every couple hrs. Or disconnect the charger and re-hook it again in the morning !I'd be-careful about just hooking it up and leaving it unattended for several days straight! By unhooking it over night you would be giving the batteries time to cool and absorb what you charged that day with out cooking them. I actually disconnect all 4 of ours and charge each one for 2-4 hrs each before reconnecting them. And then we are good for a long time (until a driver leaves the batteries on etc.) after that.
;D BK ;D
Brian know it's not your fault,sounds like the nature of the beast..If one must just pull the cables.cheaper than batteries..The 54 dollar battery come from local oil/fuel supplier.no name on them.but they hold up..Bussler Enterprizes is their name..I get my 40 wt there in bulk also for 7.50 gal rated for 2 stroke use( Shell) they serve contractors and farmers in our area.also get my upper cyl lube there for 5.50 gal it treats 300 gal..They are a delco dealer also and said these hold up just as good :I agree..My bass boat type charger is one unit sold by bass pro shop and is wired directly to each bat.stays plugged in when hooked to shore power. Bob
I just threw the charger on at 10 amps as the bus was only at 20 volts and wouldn't start. The bus is sitting in the middle of my driveway right now as I didn't put it away earlier. The batteries apparently didn't get charged enough from my trip at noon. I'll turn off the charger shortly and try to remember to turn it on when I leave in the morning.
Craig is right, I just replaced a "green knob" battery cutoff that was not!
The only truly reliable battery cutoff is one directly on the battery because, as a few have posted, there are many tiny trickle circuits in newer buses and autos.
Things to look for are a clock, radio, map light, and don't forget your ecm. Any and all of these will drain your batteries even with your batteries turned off. If during the conversion process, you eliminated anything like seat isle lights but didn't cap odf the existing wires, you could have a low voltage short. Just some things to think about!
My only cure was like I said, the on-board charger!
If you don't use your bus much, you should consider going the other way and installing AGM batteries. With all the money you've spent in the last few years, AGM batteries maintain there charge a lot longer then standard wet batteries. Size 31 starting batteries are made in AGM-they require no maintenance and since they don't out gas, the terminals never get corroded. Good Luck, TomC
HEY GUYS GOOD 24V CHARGERS FOR CHEAP
I just put two and two together and remembered that a local surplus place just got in a LOT of really nice smart chargers, 24 volts at I believe 10 amps, maybe even some 20 amp ones, and he only wants $35 bucks each plus shipping! As I recall they are three stage, and he also guarantees them. The reason they're so cheap is that around here nobody wants them, 'cause everyone wants either 12 or 36 volts. So give the guy a call and maybe your problems can go away!!!
talk to: Bill / Escondido Surplus / 760-746-7493
I'm also putting this in as a separate thread...
Cheers
Boogiethecat
I don't believe having AGM batteries will help at all where the drain is caused by an electrical load.
I've never seemed to have much luck with batteries either, although again no doubt due to operator abuse. I discovered a few weeks ago that my three 'new' house batteries have been ruined by being allowed to sit discharged for a long period. They're actually about three years old now, but I think of them as 'new' because they've barely had any use since I bought them. By way of an experiment I've spent (possibly wasted) good money on a de-suplhator device to see if I can revive the batteries to any degree - as and when I get around to trying it I will report the results.
In Brian's situation, two things occur to me - firstly, it sounds like the batteries are/were still quite young, and have only been allowed to go completely flat once, and for a short period. I'm curious to know whether this is enough to kill them - I'd have thought they should only have been slightly harmed by this, and should recover enough to still be useable.
My second query is prompted by Brian's post saying "the bus was only at 20 volts and wouldn't start". We've all tried to start vehicles with a partially-flat battery, and inevitably it achieves nothing other than a completely-flat battery. I'm curious as to whether this action itself actually damages the battery - certainly, a very high load on a battery will cause damage (buckled plates etc), but I don't know whether you get the equivalent damage from a 'normal' load on a flat battery.
Jeremy
I have four group 31 batteries. I have actually only purchased a total of five batteries even though I am on my third set of batteries. Three of the four batteries in my first replcement set were replaced under the one year warranty. They wouldn't replace one of the batteries because it showed a little bit of charge and I just bought a new one.
Ace, my ECM, clock, and other stuff are still on even with the battery disconnect shut off. Just as BK described, there are many battery connections in a Dina and isolating everything would be difficult.
Do AGM batteries really last any longer if there is a constant draw on them?
Quote from: belfert
Ace, my ECM, clock, and other stuff are still on even with the battery disconnect shut off. Just as BK described, there are many battery connections in a Dina and isolating everything would be difficult.
Brian that is exactly why Carl changed his set up to the 2 8D's and I am going to do the same in the near future!. ;)
;D BK ;D
Brian you already answered your own question as to WHY? You just stated that the clock, ecm, etc. i@ still on after you disconnect the batteries. If you know these and other items stay on, it doesn't take rocket scientist to know WHY your batteries go dead after sitting! These and other items are what is referred to as phantom drains.
Only way to fix it is either search and destroy, run the bus daily as it was designed or make it a permanent habit to hook it/them to a good float charger when you park it. Not a cheap battery tender. Your wasting your time otherwise!
Most of the phantom loads go through the Vanners. We put a battery switch from Walmart on each Vanner and that cured the problem.
I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on October 18, 2010, 01:32:52 PM
I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?
You might be onto something here Mike. But I really don't know!
I do know however our older Setra's have Vanner(s) and we never had a problem with them draining the batteries! I could let one sit for over a month and the buses would start right up and these buses never get the batteries manually disconnected by us! (they have an electronic shut off solenoid that kills most of the electricity when we turn the ignition off!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 18, 2010, 10:04:53 AM
Brian that is exactly why Carl changed his set up to the 2 8D's and I am going to do the same in the near future!. ;)
I reread your original message about changing to 8Ds. I fail to understand why it would be necessary to change to 8D batteries in order to add cutoff switches for the 12 volt lines? The first 35 Dinas made had 8D batteries and then they switched to group 31s.
Some of the Vanners require that the ground be removed first so it would not be a good idea to switch the 12 volt lines from a Vanner. The Vanner manual describes adding a ground side disconnect with a diode in the 12 volt line.
The 8D batteries have such a higher reserve ( not CCA) than the group 31 with the 4 battery setup one weak battery will kill the other 3 load test the 4 batteries not a voltage test.
A 2 8D system is so much easier to maintain than a 4 battery system but those suckers are heavy
good luck
Why not head to a better auto parts store that sells battery disconnects that are used by drag racers for the center tap lines? Like this one:
http://www.streetperformance.com/ART/PRODUCTS/100700/moroso-74102.jpeg (http://www.streetperformance.com/ART/PRODUCTS/100700/moroso-74102.jpeg)
Glenn
Brian, sorry to hear of your woes. Pull those suckers out! charge them separately then load test them, replace the bad ones. I am not a fan of mixing new batts with old, but do what ya gotta do to get by for now or replace the whole lot and be done with them. Kill the Phantom drains, I know.. Its a pain in the A-whole ;D to reprogram the car stereo each time you set out on a trip but with the little use that our busses get, that is a small price to pay. I use my 3 31's for start and house power for now and try to keep a close eye on them all the time. All the best.
Van
My radio is connected to my house batteries so no issues with reprogramming the radio. I connected it to the house batteries so the radio could be used when parked and not running down the road. I don't have anything programmed in anyhow because my radio antenna is broken and doesn't get hardly any stations. I just use the radio for playing MP3 CDs and iPod.
If you have a phantom load on the batteries, no type of battery will hold the charge. You should either disconnect the batteries in between use, or get a solar battery charger. I have a solar battery charger on my generator at the house. The Trojan size 31 battery (of which they don't make anymore) is 11 years old and still cranks the gen (I know, just had a power outage a couple of weeks ago)-course no vibration or heat to cut the life short. Good Luck, TomC
My batteries are officially DEAD, or my parasitic loads have increased dramatically! I charged the batteries at 10 amps for quite a while and then let them sit for 24 hours. After 24 hours they show less than 16 volts again.
I need to pore over the wiring diagrams and figure out the best way to disconnect the extra loads so I don't keep spending $350 every year or two on batteries.
I think your next step in troubleshooting needs to be isolating the batteries to test them as Van suggested. Disconnect them completely and charge each one. Then let it sit disconnected and see what happens. If all four batteries hold their charge, then you will know the problem is entirely a phantom drain. Since it is accelerating it could be damaged insulation causing a wire to short out, in which case finding it becomes critical as a matter of safety.
On the other hand if one or two batteries drain down all on their own, then they are damaged and have an internal short. That would not be to say you don't have phantom drains. You still should find a way to isolate the batteries when not in use. Aside from the Vanner it would simply be a matter of putting disconnect switches between battery posts and the cables/wires connecting to them. As for the Vanner, you already mentioned the manual recommended solution for that.
I highly suspect at this point that I killed the entire battery bank when I didn't hook up the trickle charger when I got home from my trip. The batteries made it for three or four days without being charged just last month. Now they don't make it more than a few hours.
I need to decide how much hassle it is worth to deal with the existing batteries. There are at least a dozen wire connections that need to be disconnected to get the batteries out and it takes a good hour or two to get the batteries disconnected and out.
I suppose they need to come out if they are to be replaced so I might as well try to recover them. Should I charge each individual battery at 10 amps or do I need to find a charger that can do like 2 amps?
I don't think it would be a waste of time or effort. As you noted, they have to come out anyway if you are going to replace them. And you really need to know the situation before you put fresh new batteries in anyway. If it is a shorting wire, it would still be a problem and could cost you much more than four more batteries if allowed to continue.
Be sure you label all wires you remove and take a photo before disconnecting any of them. I recall a thread in the past where someone disconnected all the wires connecting the batteries and then had a rough time getting it all put back when they installed the new ones.
I don't think 10 amps would be out of line for each one. I've flat lined a few auto batteries over the years and charged them back up at 10-12 amps.
Another point to consider. If there is a short, it could be sucking down most of that 10 amps from the charger. I'm not sure of the amp hour capacity of those start batteries, but it would seem like two pairs getting 10 amps at 24V would need at least 24 hours to reach full charge even if they are getting the full 10 amps. If they are only getting a couple amps of it and then getting drained again by a short or other strong phantom drain, that would achieve those results.
Just theorizing here , but as I understand it, any reading you take right after charging is nearly useless because of surface charge. So comparing that to the reading 12-24 hours later isn't giving you an accurate picture of what is going on. For example it doesn't mean that the charger loaded them up and they drained it all back down overnight. If a short or drain was taking most of what the charger was giving but some was going into the batteries it could result in enough surface charge to make the reading look good right when you take the charger off. But as the surface charge dissipates, they are still pretty flat.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on October 18, 2010, 01:32:52 PM
I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?
Interestingly enough, the Vanner may be the biggest culprit in the whole problem. If one of the 4 batteries in his bank has a bad cell, the Vanner will continuously try to equalize it by drawing from the remaining batteries. In short order that one bad cell will kill the remaining batteries in the bank!
HTR is right - you cannot decide anything about the condition of the batteries whilst they are still connected to the bus. It does sound like your wiring system is rather complex - not least because of the number of connections ("at least a dozen") on the batteries themselves - are many of these small-gauge wires going to individual accessories in the bus? If so, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing a manufacturer would do - more like a succession of owners or mechanics have added stuff to the bus in a very quick-and-dirty way. Worth taking the opportunity to re-wire things properly such that all 'minor' connections are made permanent within the loom itself, with the only removable connection being a single large cable to each battery post. Doing that alone might sort out your phantom load problem.
Once the batteries are out, don't rush into testing them before you are certain they have received a full charge - for instance, I'm wondering what 'quite a while' means in the statement "I charged the batteries at 10 amps for quite a while and then let them sit for 24 hours". If 'quite a while' means a few hours, that's probably not nearly enough time to charge a totally flat battery bank, especially if the bank was still connected to a substantial phantom load.
Your batteries might be toast - but give them a fair chance of proving otherwise first.
Jeremy
The wires coming off the batteries are all heavy gauge like they are factory connections. The wiring diagrams shows a number of connections coming off the batteries.
I probably won't pull the batteries until this weekend and then charge them each individually.
Auto zone here loans a load tester ,I think 100 dollar deposit till you bring it back.will tell you quickly if battery has a bad cell. must be seperated indivually (no cables) but you could leave in bus.One cell in one battery can kill bank.but if replaced the other should restore to use.
Belfert
Could you tap off where all those connections are now made and put a remote post in with only one connection to the batteries. With a disconnect and wire of proper size. Then you could shut off all those feeds with one disconnect just a thought
Rick 74 MC-8
Quote from: Rick 74 MC-8 on October 20, 2010, 08:42:39 AM
Belfert
Could you tap off where all those connections are now made and put a remote post in with only one connection to the batteries. With a disconnect and wire of proper size. Then you could shut off all those feeds with one disconnect just a thought
Rick 74 MC-8
Actually that's a really good idea - even if your wiring is standard, and Dina themselves did intend for there to be multiple connections to each battery, a modification such as Rick suggests may be very worthwhile. Knowing as we all do how even a single battery connection can corrode and develop a high resistance if not correctly assembled with petroleum jelly or similar, having multiple connections at each battery seems to me to be very bad practice. And, as Rick says, it will make it much easier to install a switch to completely isolate the batteries from all the bus systems
Jeremy
You may already have this covered. Just a suggestion.
Something that has not been covered in this thread is the possibility that improper charging could be contributing to your premature battery death. Whether you revive your existing batteries or replace them I would carefully monitor what is happening as they charge.
Under charge could be contributing to them going down sooner that you expect. Overcharge could also be killing them.
Another thing that has been mentioned is changing 1 battery at a time in a bank. While it may be less expensive at the time it is often a false economy. If you can pull a bad battery, or pair for 6 volts, from the bank and continue with what is left until you can replace the entire bank, it is a better way to go.
Good luck
Brian, just trying to help you cover all bases here, but as I recall you did some work on the dash board, trailer wiring, also you did have a little episode with your trailer axle. Just something to consider. Did you have a charging problem before starting any of these projects? Bottom line is first pull the Batts as I suggested to make sure they are up to snuff (charge and load test), start with the simple things first, then dig deeper if needed ;). Nothing worse that tearing everything apart to find out it was as simple as a batt plate that collapsed, just saying. good luck
Van
The battery problems only started after I got home and didn't hook up my smart charger right away. Everything was working just fine after doing all the work I did, but at that time I had the smart charger hooked up.
The charger may have been handling the phantom drains and giving a little charge to the batteries. Or it is a possible that one of the unswitched wires somewhere wore through its insulation during the trip and introduced a new drain. Or it is possible that one of the batteries developed and internal problem during the trip. In any case, the next step is the same as the one you are now planning. Separate/isolate the batteries and charge each of them thoroughly and test them. If you find a bad battery that is a probable solution. If the batteries are good, them you will know to troubleshoot the wiring and consider how to address the phantom drains.
Have you used an ammeter to see what the draw is when everything is shut down or the disconnect switch is used?
Something else that i just thought of and should be obvious, are they sealed or wet batteries? If wet, how often do you check them/fill them and with what? If you let your batts get low on water that can kill them real quick, even just one cell being low a time or two can do it. If you fill them with anything other than distilled water that can do them in pretty quick too.
Good news: I charged the batteries for 24 hours at 10 amps and the voltmeter was showing just over 24 volts. The engine started without any hesitation at all. I moved the bus from the driveway to its normal parking spot and hooked the smart charger back up. We'll see how things look this weekend. If the batteries are still good this weekend I probably won't touch the batteries until spring. It is getting cold outside and I have lots of stuff to do to get the house ready for winter.
These are standard lead acid batteries that are supposed to be maintenance free. You can get the caps off to check the water, but it wouldn't be easy as they aren't supposed to come off.
So after all this we can assume your NOT bringing yourself and your bus to Arcadia since you are parking it in the regular spot and won't touch the batteries until Spring?
I have the same batteries and even though the caps weren't meant to come off, they actually come fairly easy with a screwdriver. That's how I check my water and re-fill if and when necessary!
So, after wasting our time reading this, you aren't going to do anything????
And we'll get to write more in the spring? I think not...
It is your coach, you are master of it, make it do what you want!
Go back and do what Rick 74 MC8 told you to do: tie all those connections together with a suitable sized for amperage, commercially available terminal junction, wiring sorted according to voltage required and then feed them with a single cable from each of the the ground/12/24 volt sources.
We don't get smarter with age, we get stupider. On some battery change, or unrelated maintenance procedure, what will you do after you mix up the wires and feed 24 volts to some 12 volt computer?
Your choice, set it up for addled success or suffer the consequences.
Leave the Vanner attached directly to the batteries, three lines direct, and put two disconnects in the cables heading for your new 12 and 24 volt terminals. Vanner won't harm anything by itself. Mine has been directly connected at all times inside the system disconnects for years with no degradation in battery set voltage, sometimes in durations measured in months rather than weeks.
thanks for being a target this evening...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Ace on October 20, 2010, 07:04:43 PM
So after all this we can assume your NOT bringing yourself and your bus to Arcadia since you are parking it in the regular spot and won't touch the batteries until Spring?
I never said I'm not coming to Arcadia. I'll pull the batteries if they don't maintain a charge for a few days. If they maintain charge after several days I am not going to mess with them for now.
My regular spot is just off the end of my driveway on river rock. It isn't like the bus is parked away some place where I can't take it to Arcadia.
I'm starting to understand why Dallas and other people have left.
It is getting starting to get cold here in Minnesota. I don't have indoor space to work on my bus. My next two or three weekends are tied up getting my garage and yard in shape for winter.
If I can nurse the batteries through until spring it will be a lot warmer and more light to work on things then. It will give me time over the winter to study the wiring to determine the best course of action for adding disconnects and such. If need be I'll completely disconnect the batteries over the winter.
It isn't that I don't want to fix this. The batteries will take a charge to at least start the bus and I don't have any place to be right now with the bus.
Well Hell, if your going to just give up and winterize your garage and your yard rather than prep your bus then why are we here? You should have gone and posted on greenthumb.com
There has been 60 post in this thread not counting this one and I feel now that I'm glad the play offs are on! I thought we ALL were helping you get your bus ready and maybe help you to be more confident along with planning your trip to Arcadia but it appears that every time someone came up with a solution, another snag >read excuse< took place! I don't get it! If it isn't the batteries, the lack of charging, the phantom drains, the vanner, the cut off switches, the wiring, money, the charger itself, time of day, and NOW you want to use the weather, darkness, garage and your yard? Come on Brian! Give us a break and what does that comment mean, you know why Dallas and others left? Could it be they left because they got tired of stuff like THIS? TRYING to help someone that follows with excuse after excuse? I don't think so!
Ok I'm done flaming! It has been a long time and yes it felt good but now I'm back to normal! Gone from THIS post!
Cool Ace I liked that.
Melbo
YMMV
Brian, there are a couple things to note and consider when you measure them again this weekend. If you are testing them within a few hours of taking the charger off of them, they should read high. Just over 24V is still kind of low even after the surface charge dissipates, but right after removing the charger it should be significantly higher I believe. If loads were disconnected, then waiting 12 hours before taking a voltage reading would be a lot more meaningful. But with the possibility of a phantom drain, waiting would just open that possiiblity for draining them again.
Given all that you posted, I am still open to the idea that nothing has really changed, but it was never good. There could be 6-7 amps of phantom drain with that many wires direct connecting to the batteries. The 10A charger is able to cover that and still deliver a slow trickle charge to the batteries, which when parked for a week or so and the batteries have a fair charge left from the road, that works, albeit not great. When you parked it without the charger, that full drain was hitting the batteries.
If you have the time when you stop by here on your way down to Arcadia, I'm sure the shop would let us borrow their load tester to get an absolute answer on the battery health.
Quote from: Ace on October 20, 2010, 08:37:57 PM
Well Hell, if your going to just give up and winterize your garage and your yard rather than prep your bus then why are we here? You should have gone and posted on greenthumb.com
There has been 60 post in this thread not counting this one and I feel now that I'm glad the play offs are on! I thought we ALL were helping you get your bus ready and maybe help you to be more confident along with planning your trip to Arcadia but it appears that every time someone came up with a solution, another snag >read excuse< took place! I don't get it! If it isn't the batteries, the lack of charging, the phantom drains, the vanner, the cut off switches, the wiring, money, the charger itself, time of day, and NOW you want to use the weather, darkness, garage and your yard? Come on Brian! Give us a break and what does that comment mean, you know why Dallas and others left? Could it be they left because they got tired of stuff like THIS? TRYING to help someone that follows with excuse after excuse? I don't think so!
Ok I'm done flaming! It has been a long time and yes it felt good but now I'm back to normal! Gone from THIS post!
IF IT ISN'TSO BROKE THAT THE BUS WON'T RUN WHY SHOULD I MAKE IT THE #1 PRIORITY IN MY LIFE TO FIX RIGHT NOW?? It isn't like I am planning to drive my bus with a broken air line or bad brakes or something that will endanger others on the road.
It may get looked at before Spring or it may not. I don't exactly enjoy freezing my fingers off trying to work on stuff when it is 40 degrees outside. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WOULD STOP ME FROM GOING TO ARCADIA!!
That advice people have given on this will be just as valid in the spring as it is today.
Brian--I agree I worked out all my life--now retired I run to the sun when I can--stay warm or cool when necessary..I really think if I had to do it over I should have retired first(about 20) then about 55 went to work then retired again.. ;D ;D
Bob, i tried that.....retired at 21! It was great except that i had no income so it did not last long. :(
Brian, I enjoy your posts but you leave yourself wide open for this flaming it gets very frustrating trying to help you seems like you ask for help and already have an answer for the problem or you are going to do it different anyway and there is nothing wrong with that it just rubs some people the wrong way if it works for you on the batteries do it your way it is not any of our business it's your bus and money
good luck
I agree Clifford, and while the door is still open, let me add this, Brian, do it in your time but tuck them puppies away for the winter and keep em' warm and for the love of mike don't use that BBuddy heater, other wise you won't get the battery compartment door open until the next thaw (spring) ;D ;D. It is all in the timing... your timing ;)
No flaming from here,well just a little ribbing. ;D ;D
good luck :)
Van
Quote from: belfert
1st; I need to pore over the wiring diagrams and figure out the best way to disconnect the extra loads so I don't keep spending $350 every year or two on batteries.
2nd; I need to decide how much hassle it is worth to deal with the existing batteries. There are at least a dozen wire connections that need to be disconnected to get the batteries out and it takes a good hour or two to get the batteries disconnected and out.
3rd; I suppose they need to come out if they are to be replaced so I might as well try to recover them. Should I charge each individual battery at 10 amps or do I need to find a charger that can do like 2 amps?
1st; GOOD LUCK! Dad and I have already BTDT. And evidently Carl has too! (after all the man has literally owned 40 if not more Dina's over the yrs {shoot @ 1 time he had 16 of them in service in his fleet, not counting the ones he had out on "lease purchase" or has bought & sold) If Carl takes the 4 out and goes to 2 with 3 cut offs I can assure you he ain't do'n it fer his health! (and he did as Rick suggested and tied all the little leads to one post and ran one major cable to the center tap with the "kill switch" like the racers use! Also same style on the main negative and the MCI knife blade in place of the original shut off! [same location even!)
2nd; Yeah really look close as to where those wires coming off the "center tap" go and notice that the Vanner ties them into a bunch of grounds on the panel on the wall behind the batteries which lets them create the "floating ground!"
3rd;I agree it doesn't hurt to try and save them. But in the end I am saying good by to them! Since you seem to like them and trying and trying to fix them I may have them shipped to you next time I know of someone going yer way. (Or I could meet you with them as you come down I-24 on yer way to Arcadia!)
Hey DIYW but remember YMMV!
;D BK ;D
"I charged the batteries for 24 hours at 10 amps and the voltmeter was showing just over 24 volts."
so they are still essentially flat.
Quote from: Tony LEE on October 22, 2010, 03:01:48 PM
"I charged the batteries for 24 hours at 10 amps and the voltmeter was showing just over 24 volts."
so they are still essentially flat.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? The battery bank started at under 16 volts and in 24 hours they were over 24 volts.
Maybe just over 24 volts is a little low for a 24 volt bank, but I've never seen much over 24 volts even with brand new batteries. The engine started just fine at just over 24 volts.
Okay, I decided not to wait until spring to look at my batteries. It was supposed to be 70 degrees today (unseasonably warm) so I went into work early so I could get home early to look at the batteries. Unfortunately I could only work until 6 pm due to a wake.
I went through the posts and looked at the various suggestions. I called Bryce (twice) because I was slightly confused on what he was describing in his posts. (Thanks Bryce!)
1. Parasitic draw appears to be 1.4 amps at 24 volts. For some reason I didn't get any reading on the 12 volt. I'm wondering if there is a Vanner issue, but didn't get a chance to test yet with the Vanner disconnected.
2. I tried to remove the disconnect switch to make sure it was okay, but I couldn't get the last screw out. (I bought a longer bit for my drill this evening.) The switch is turning off all 24 volt except the Vanner so the draw has to come from the 12 volt side, Vanner, or the switch is bad.
3. I discovered that I do indeed have removeable caps to add water. At least one cell needs water so I will add water tomorrow. (I'm too used to modern car batteries and figured the caps didn't come off.)
4. The 12 volt wiring is really screwy. They took the 12 volt and the ground for the 12 volt directly off the Vanner. The wire for the 12 volt looks kinda small to me at maybe 2 or 4 gauge. I may rewire directly off the battery.
5. It looks like I can easily add a disconnect for the 12 volt wiring. I just need to buy a switch and some new cables.
6. Bryce recommended going with two 8Ds instead of the 4 group 31 batteries to save on cost. If I do need new batteries I'll probably do this.
More to come when I get a little more time and cooperative weather.
Brian, not sure if this is right but ever since my last set of 4 group 31 batteries was installed and kept on a float charger when not running down the road, my batteries are kept at a voltage of almost 28 volts or just under like 27.4 - 27 8. My silverleaf confirms this once I disconnect the float and fire the coach up and run down the road!
I would think that IF you were to start your coach on 24 volts it was at the bare minimum and once it cranked, it may have used up what little charge they had in them and would have to be runa little longer than just moving it to bring them up to full charge via your alternator.
As for my 12 volt side? When I check them, they always check out around 13.7-9 and if you multiply that by 2 you get the 24 volt reading. In other words I can check each battery independently and get a 12 volt reading. If I add 2 of them together, I get my 24 volt reading when I check the 24 volt leg.
Brian, there are lots of sites that talk about battery voltage and State Of Charge (SOC). They all have voltage charts (and warn you that voltage is a marginal way of measuring SOC). As has been said, your voltage is very low for a 24 volt system - if the batteries have been in a condition where there is no charging or discharging for several hours.
I can't find my favorite site, but here is one that talks about voltage and SOC:
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_metering.html (http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_metering.html)
And a more technical site:
http://www.mpoweruk.com/soc.htm (http://www.mpoweruk.com/soc.htm)
SOC is important for a good battery, but it does not tell you what the battery condition is. I can't tell if you have removed the batteries yet or not. When you do, you should have them load tested - the only way to determine the condition of a battery. Not sure how many shops will do four for you, but you could do a couple at a time. They will want to charge them on their charger first and then do the load test. That is the only way of knowing if your batteries are toast or not.
BTW what the heck are you doing getting a head start of preparation for a trip - you will ruin the fun of us following your last minute prep sagas ;D ;D ;D
Jim
I wasn't intending to do anything to the bus before Arcadia mainly because it didn't need anything and because it gets too cold to do much in the late fall and winter. (Too expensive to heat the bus to do work.) The battery thing is something that popped up after my trip.
I don't have a fancy amp meter so the next best thing is probably to get a hydrometer. The chart on the web page Jim references says 25.4 volts is 100% charged. Where is the best type of place to get batteries load tested? I can't imagine a regular auto parts store is going to charge each battery for several hours and then load test it.
I'm going to go out and test a couple more things before the rain starts.
Brian, you don't need a particularly fancy ammeter to see what the draw is. The $5.00 multimeter I once got from Harbor Freight will do it. Just disconnect the terminal you want to get a read from and use to leads of the meter to close the circuit with the battery. The only catch is that these cheap ones will be limited to 10 amps. I doubt that your draw could be that high though.
The other thing to watch for is to move the positive lead back to the voltage port before you use it again for voltage. That's what I forgot to do so the ammeter function went up in smoke.
My digital multimeter measures parasitic draw in amps just fine. The web page Jim referred to says the best way to monitor state of charge is with an amp-hour meter something like a Trimetric.
Belfert
I know I will take some heat here BUT I replaced mt 2 8D's with 2 group 31 about 4 years ago and have not had any problems. I now store my bus inside in the winter but last year was the first year. If you have a block heater (mine does) even the coldest days after a few hours plugged in it will fire up in under 2 revolutions. Faster than I want with no oil psi. I (most of the time) will hold it to no fuel and let it crank a few more times first. Never had a problem. I still have and use otr heat I removed otr air. I will admit at idle if traffic the batteries voltage drops but that doesent happen that often. I can allways turn the heat off for a few minutes if needed. Just my way
Rick 74 MC-8
Brian, I think many folks who sell batteries can load test them. Sears is a pretty good bet. Like I said before, you might be pushing your luck to take 4 batteries in at once.
Another thought is that you could buy your own tester - looks like for less than $50.
There is one on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7612-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B0009XQUJI (http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7612-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B0009XQUJI)
There are a ton of them on Ebay. This one: http://cgi.ebay.com/BATTERY-TESTER-Load-Type-6V-12V-MECHANICS-VALUE-New-/250713520571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fb0b9bb (http://cgi.ebay.com/BATTERY-TESTER-Load-Type-6V-12V-MECHANICS-VALUE-New-/250713520571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5fb0b9bb) is interesting in that it will test 6V (house batteries) and 12V (start batteries).
Not sure how good these units are.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on October 23, 2010, 03:28:33 PM
Brian, I think many folks who sell batteries can load test them. Sears is a pretty good bet. Like I said before, you might be pushing your luck to take 4 batteries in at once.
One of your other posts referred to a place charging them before testing them. I just can't see too many places taking the time to charge the batteries first.
I don't think getting four batteries tested is that big an issue. The place doing the testing is going to see that as the potential to sell me four batteries. I should probably just take them to the place I bought them as they always seem to have the best prices.
Probably not the best way but if your taking them back to where you purchased them, uhh, act dumb and just say they won't hold a charge and they are not that old (regardless of the warranty) and for them to check them out and see why! They will probably check them out for free and possibly replace them if one or more are bad AND make sure you tell them that you won't accept a MIS-matched set so they will HAVE to replace all 4.
Sometimes in life you gotta stretch the tune, grow some big ones and just GO FOR IT!
AND...
I wouldn't say anything about NOT running the bus for some time OR not having them on a charger due to laziness, and I would IF NEEDED say something like they are in your motor home rather than in a bus.
Hey at this point, what have you got to lose? You might end up with a person that feels a little sympathy for you and truly understands! The worst scenario is, you gotta buy 4 new batteries again and you can chalk that up to a lesson learned! A costly one but none the less, hopefully learned!
I don't know if somebody else mentioned this earlier, and i don't feel like re-reading everything to find out if they did, :) but make sure that the posts and cable ends are clean,,,,,they may look ok but clean them anyway. I have had battery post or cable ends that looked fine but it turned out that they had a fine layer of tarnish that either kept them from taking a charge or delivering it to the starter at full strength. Also make sure that the cables are tight too. ;D
Brian,
Just another point of reference. I start my 8V71 with two group 31s located in the original battery compartment in the MC-5. So there's a lot of cable in between those batteries and the engine and its not exactly a fresh engine! The batteries are Optima Yellow AGMs that the previous owner installed before I bought it! They will still start the engine without block heater down to about 50 degrees and they must be about six years old.
Regarding parisitic draw, I use the disconnect if I'm going to park it for a few weeks. Otherwise they get drawn down. I have been throwing a charger on them periodically throughout the winter when I think of it. Now I bought a BatteryMinder and will connect it to them in parallel when its parked in the shed over the winter.
FWIW - Fred
If you really want to learn much from a load test, the batteries need to be removed from any possible load, properly serviced, properly charged and then set idle for at least a day, more is better. Taking one right off charge and load testing it can give you false info.
Load testers vary all over the map too. If you put the CORRECT load on and the battery takes an immediate nose dive, you probably have a bad battery. Sometimes though, it takes a healthy tester to put enough load for long enough to get meaningful info.
The redneck load test is to charge the bank, let it set with ALL loads disconnected for a day or two, then connect everything and turn on your headlights and have a beer for 30 minutes or so. If you still can make a cold start normally you might be a redneck load tester. ;)
Good luck
Don 4107
Quote from: Ace on October 23, 2010, 05:35:12 PM
Probably not the best way but if your taking them back to where you purchased them, uhh, act dumb and just say they won't hold a charge and they are not that old
And we all wonder why our country is going to hell. I sure hope no ones children read this dishonest advice. Look, the man burned up his batteries through negligence and ignorance. Its no ones fault but his, he has no more right to free batteries than anyone else.
And it is a Bus. While its not being operated commercially, it is a commercial vehicle. The fact its used so intermitantly makes the application even tougher on batteries. Just man up and admit you dont know what the hell your doing, learn from your mistakes and teach yourself about batteries. I have old batteries in just about everything I own, and I dont generally have battery problems and dont ofetn buy new ones, but used ones. This stuff isnt rocket science, lead acid batteries have been around for over a century and a half and still operate the same way and have the same problems they did 150 years ago. They dont like being discharged dead, it sulfates the plates and can permanently destroy them, even new ones. Pull the cable off if nothing else, a fully charged battery in good condition can hold a charge for up to a year or more and still crank up an engine. They dont like being ovcercharged/overheated either.
Our Neoplan has done the same thing. We keep a charger on it all the time or it goes dead. It had new batteries in it when we got it and they died shortly there after. We thought they just weren't any good or used. The ones we replaced them with have died too. The trickle charger or the vanner charged them so much that one cell on each looses water. It's refill and charge and the water is down again. We never thought of the vanner or those fantom loads.
So the question is, If you really disconnect everything from the batteries, will it damage the ddec or other electronics that are connected to it? Will the computers loose their memory or the internal batteries that run them go dead?
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Neoplan AN340
Quote from: artvonne on October 24, 2010, 07:58:19 AM
Quote from: Ace on October 23, 2010, 05:35:12 PM
Probably not the best way but if your taking them back to where you purchased them, uhh, act dumb and just say they won't hold a charge and they are not that old
And we all wonder why our country is going to hell. I sure hope no ones children read this dishonest advice. Look, the man burned up his batteries through negligence and ignorance. Its no ones fault but his, he has no more right to free batteries than anyone else.
I have no intention of trying to get free replacement batteries. If the batteries are bad I'll buy new ones.
My plan is to put a disconnect on the 12 volt side to remove any load from the batteries. I tested the 24 volt disconnect and it appears no voltage is leaking past it. In theory, the equalizer should have nothing to do if there is no 24 volt or 12 volt load.
I have other 12 volt batteries that have lasted for years. My standby generator at home has a nine year old battery and it still starts every time. My bus generator starts every time on a battery that is at least 5 years old. (I got the battery used.)
Oh come on! You can honestly say you haven't stretched the tuth when you returned an item? Yea right! You probably voted for our present fearless leader too!
Don't worry about advice like I gave or a few batteries being the reason our nation is the way it is because it's all around you. Your just too blind obviously to see it! I guess this advice is far different than you and everyone else telling the dmv that your "bus" is a motorhome or your insurance company that it's been converted and the only thing you have in it is a sleeping bag, a cooler and a five gallon bucket. Oh wait, your the type that thinks this is ok and normal. Excuuuusse meee!
Brian, new advice!
Quit being so cheap, buy new batteries, don't worry about the price of fuel, or the weather. Get in and go! Don't even worry about the time missed from work. Just do it!
And the good thing about all of this is? Won't have to hear about until next year when you use your bus again! :)
Ace, putting in new batteries would not fix the fundamental problem with them going dead. I am pretty sure I have figured out what I need to do to completely disconnect any load from the batteries. I just need to get the parts to add another battery disconnect. I've spent about 5 to 6 hours since Friday afternoon working on my battery issues and I've learned a lot too.
My intent right now is to be on the road in my bus either the evening of Dec 25th or the morning of Dec 26th on my way to Arcadia. Right now I am supposed to be back at work on Jan 4th, but I am going to see about a few more days. I get all my time off reset on Jan 1 so I can easily take a few more days.
Brian, I am so glad that you have decided to go to Arcadia. We went a three times and it was always great fun - wish we could make the finale. Sounds like you are getting your act together.
I debated hijacking this thread or going back to the other thread, but one item you will need to consider is tire chains. There are a couple of threads on this. This is the one I started:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=14421.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=14421.0)
If you have them you will not need them (hopefully). Chains will cost less than a $100 and are just plain good insurance. This is especially true since you are on a tight schedule and won't have the luxury of parking for a few days to wait it out.
Jim
I agree, new batteries just puts you back to square one. Just a band-aid so to speak. What you REALLY need to do is learn how to maintain your batteries for those very long dry spells where your not running it.
I was only implying on how to help you get new batteries replaced since you stated earlier your funds were tight.
Personally I dont think you need a cut off switch. Simply adding a float charger and making it a habit of plugging it in when parked is the ONLY thing you need to do. If the mfgr thought it needed the switch, one would have been there. They DID NOT intend for the bus to be sitting long periods!
Remenber, myself and a lot others have already been where your just entering!
Belfert,
I use something like this
http://www.electus.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=5937&CATID=23&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&SUBCATID= (http://www.electus.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=5937&CATID=23&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&SUBCATID=)
on the 12v and the 24v lines of my equalizer; protection and disconnect. the instructions said to do that also.
I have seen them at otter zone and car stereo places. I also added a switch for the 12 v loads.
The equalizer also has a load for it to operate.
good luck
Brian - just as another data point for you, Prevost XLs use a Cole Hersee 2484-16 to disconnect the 12V system.
http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/t_battery.PDF (http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/t_battery.PDF)
There is a 6 gauge wire from the 12V section on the battery to one side of the switch, then all of the 12V loads are fed from the other side. They also wire the Vanner to the load side of the switches, so that it is cut off when the switches are off. Let me know if you want a wiring diagram or pictures for an XL so that you can get some ideas.
Steve
I have a Battery Tender Plus 24 volt version already. It it permanently tied into my batteries. What I do not have is a permanent outlet for it. Right now I run an extension cord into the battery compartment to power the charger. The Battery Tender is a three stage charger so it doesn't overcharge them. This past winter it kept the batteries up.
I forgot to plug in the charger right away when I got back from my trip, but I still don't think it should have flattened the batteries so quickly.