Okay folks, here is the short story.
We are looking into whether we have to be a commercial vehicle or not.
One of my biggest questions are weigh stations. The state regs say 20K maximum on a single axle. What happens if the steer axle is tagged by the manufacture at 16K? Would the weigh stations care/catch that? When they weigh a bus, what are weight limits on a bus, when you are rolling through a weigh station?
What happens if you get inspected, and the officer looks at the VIN plate and sees that the steer is tagged for 16K? Would that be a show stopper?
Can anybody help me?
Thanks.
God bless,
John
John, they don't care what is on your id tag inside the bus just don't exceed their limits per axle, John some states do it by tire width OK rates the weight on the tires as I remember it was 800 lbs per inch of width no problem for the drivers but the steering and tag can get you in trouble.
Why would you want to be commercial the paper work and paying the road use tax and permits in different states will drive you nuts and your neighbors in Colorado are the worst of any state
good luck
everythings OK until you clause an accident in the meantime careful you could put your eye out................just drive on by that badboy scale like all rvs
Just like life...if you ask for trouble you will find it
Iam with Steve unless your have your business name on that bad boy , just keep on drivin It's an RV and not a commercial Bus
John,
The states generally follow the federal regs, but the feds do allow them to restrict axle weights to the manufacturer's rating. So it depends on how the state code is written. If you were found to be over weight, you'd most likely be looking at a citation and fine, as opposed to being placed out of service.
My question for you is why do you think you "have to be a commercial vehicle or not"?
CLifford,
The number you're looking for is 500lbs per inch, but it doesn't apply to the steer axle, per the federal regs.
Bob
I know here in Calif the scales only care that you have enough tire to carry the weight. 20,000lbs max on a single axle (steer too). You can run the 315/80R-22.5 up to 20,000lbs, but with a 65mph speed limit (if the tire is rated that way). Most states don't bother motorhomes. But-I know that North Dakota is way behind with only 550lb/in of tire measurement. So a 11 would be 12,100lbs and the 12" would be 13,200lbs. Most are way below rating. I know my bus weighs in at 10,500lbs in front and 20,500lbs in back with 13,000lbs rating in front and 23,000lbs rating in back-so I'm way under GVW rating. Good Luck, TomC
There are scales out there that call in all vehicles of any kind over a certain GVWR or over a RGW number. Regardless of commercial or not. Not to many but I have seen them.
Brian
Gents,
Thanks for the replies.
Actually most of this is thanks to RickB ;D.
We have looked into the state regs here, and if we continue what we are doing, we are commercial. Believe me, that is the last thing we want to do. We don't enjoy changing the way we do things, but we always try to stay on the right side of the law.
That was my biggest question though. What happens if we get inspected, and the front axle says 15K max on the sticker right inside of the door. We have 315's on the front, so our tires are rated for 9K each. So if they looked at tire weight we are fine. If they looked at per inch, we would still probably be fine. If it was under 20K we would still be fine. However, what happens if they look at the sticker?
I just don't see anyway that they would let that past. However, we are still working through things.
Thanks for your help.
God bless,
John
John, they pay no attention to the manufactures rating here is expample on my haul trucks and low boys standard rating was 80,000 lbs and I could carry 118,000 lbs with the same amount of axles add 2 more axles and I could haul 200,000 lbs.
Just up your weight to 52,000 lbs GVW like the big boys and travel on it will not be a problem
good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on October 05, 2010, 03:36:15 AM
There are scales out there that call in all vehicles of any kind over a certain GVWR or over a RGW number. Regardless of commercial or not. Not to many but I have seen them.
Brian
Brian is correct there are a few here in Maryland that say all vehicles over 5tons. John you were quite clear in your statement "that if we keep doing what we are doing, we are commercial". Be that so you dont want ( as you also stated that you want to be within the law) be stopped and not be up to commercial rules.
I don't think that you will be bothered if you do not have commercial plates on the bus. If your plates are RV type plates then you do not have to cross the scales. If for some reason they chase you down, play dumb and act like you don't know anything about anything. Sometimes they will give you a pass...sometimes not.
I don't recall busses having to stop at the chicken houses...but my memory may not be great. BK could likely clarify this. If you think there will be a problem then Choose not to participate. There are many different ways to get from point A to your destination and if you check your map carefully, you can find ways to completely avoid crossing scales. Remember, one burnt out marker light can cost several hundred dollars (I once got fined $200 for a marker light out on a trailer) and once they stop you they will very probably squeeze as much money from you as they can. Think of yourself as the goose that laid the golden egg in the DOT's eyes.
If you are a truely commercial operation then you have many hoops to jump through and you may find it very expensive to continue.
Just my 2cents.
Thanks so much for the help, gents.
Okay, I think we have things figured out. We called around, talked to the DOT guy (he is great, he really is. He has helped us figure out what the law says, and he isn't one of those that tries to get you to do everything that you don't need too), and called some troopers at the weigh stations. Turns out all they are concerned about (just like you guys said, the sticker doesn't matter), is what the tires are rated for. Our tires are rated for somewhat over 9k each. So we are just fine. WHEEWWW....Did I mention that is a relief? ;D
And yes, we are a commercial vehicle. There is really no other way. We could probably squeak by, and not go commercial, however that is a huge can of worms. The problem lies in what happens if there is an accident? That is when things get really nasty (just ask RickB ;)). We really don't want to go there.
In addition to that, we are not a bus in the eyes of the law. We are general cargo carrier, just like a truck. Hence we have to pull through all of the weigh stations. Could we get by without? Probably yes for a long time. However, the one time that you don't and you get a grumpy county mounty, your day just went to hell.
Our bus passed DOT inspection very easily. One gent said that he hasn't seen a DD look so clean ;D. But that ain't fair, because it isn't a two stroke, and we don't leak any oil when we are parked.
Thanks for your help, gents. It really was nice to have some real life experience.
God bless,
John
Nebraska and other states have weigh in motion right in the road. I've triggered the TRUCK MUST EXIT sign multiple times, but I've never stopped since I'm an RV. I always figure I'll get chased down if they really want me to stop.
I do make sure all lights and such are working so there is no reason an enforcement officer would want to stop me.
John, I guess everyone probably knows what you do, that is commercial. I was just curious as to what you do? Glad you got it worked out.
[/quote] Brian is correct there are a few here in Maryland that say all vehicles over 5tons. John you were quite clear in your statement "that if we keep doing what we are doing, we are commercial". Be that so you don't want ( as you also stated that you want to be within the law) be stopped and not be up to commercial rules.
[/quote]
I run US 301. US 50, & US 13 in Virginia & Maryland frequently & never cross the scales. No one has ever chased me or asked. Of course, my bus looks like & is painted as an RV.
TOM
John,
Here are some of the things I have found out over the last week. First off, if you have RV plates the law has to prove that you are using the bus for "commercial" purposes and some of the ways that they will attempt to prove that you are commercial is an RV has to have a shower and food storage, preparation and cooking appliances.
If you are setup like a 12 bunk entertainer coach out of Nashville which rarely have a shower and have limited food storage and preparation appliances they are probably gonna start digging around looking for evidence of an office (an office is a no-no because you use an office to make money hence the term commercial) or they may check your bays for instruments or a large amount of products that suggest you are traveling somewhere to either drop off products which makes you a commercial carrier or a vendor which means you intend to sell a product for profit using your bus to get to your sales destination. That is their exact definition of a vehicle being used for commerce with incorrect plates. It is then that weight per axle really becomes a concern. that's also why I asked all of you to take any manufacturers stickers or plaques (even if they're hidden like mine was behind a upholstered cover) that suggest how many passengers you can carry. That is the kind of proof an officer needs to make the fines stick.
I hate to say it but until the economy turns around and states find themselves less financially strapped I believe they are going to start being quite interested in what we are using our buses for. I will drive my car to any future gigs I may have and I will admit that this setback for us has Lea and I seriously looking at the viability of keeping our bus.
To give everyone a clear picture of the changing landscape of bus ownership and a clearer view of what we are really talking about here and how many of us are quite possibly already over the line into commercial operation, while we were waiting for the DOT guy a motorhome went by towing a race car to the local dirt track and the trooper looked and said "See that's a perfect example of what we are talking about, that guys is going to race for prize money and he has RV plates if I wasn't here with you right now I'd pull him over". There was no question in that troopers eyes that he would have made that citation stick.
There are a number of guys who race cars on this blog, there are or were guys like Dallas who work on motors, Belfert travels to rocket shows... Is there a prize for best rocket?
There are a number of folks, myself included, on this blog who need to be aware that with the tight economy states and cities are going to try and raise revenue any way they can and we are one of the demographics they are looking at. If you use your bus to go to campgrounds exclusively you're fine if you're driving to Phoenix to speak at a convention and they find out about it, you could face really stiff fines for breaking the commercial vehicle law, not to mention possible tax evasion not to mention different insurance and DOT regulations
For what it's worth, the lowest commercial vehicle insurance I could find is more a month than my bus
payment is.
Don't get scared or angry about this just use due diligence and if you are going to use your bus in ways that could be deemed commercial don't wear it on your sleeve i.e., buswrap advertising you next speaking engagement, widgets for sale signs in plain sight or a sound system that takes up your whole front bay (been there, done that) and if you do get caught don't lie and whatever you do try not to turn a misdemeanor into a felony by resisting an officer in ways that a court would find illegal. It's perfectly legal to srgue your case to an officer but I have yet to see it work. It seems that the court was invented for arguments.
Sorry for the long winded post but I am concerned for all of you and I'm really concerned that a scenario like this might come on a particularly bad day for one of us and we might just lose it and may spend some time in jail as a result.
One thing I intend to do in the future is, unless there is an obvious reason for doing so, I will be reluctant to obey an officer if he says "hey why don't we go talk about this alone for a second just you and I" I did that last week and my attorney informed me after the fact that without a witness to corroborate your side of the conversation it is hearsay and it is not permitted in court.
John I hope this post and all the other posts you have received have given you some clarity.
Thanks all
Rick
Quote from: RickB on October 05, 2010, 05:54:18 PM
....that a scenario like this might come on a particularly bad day for one of us and we might just lose it and may spend some time in jail as a result.
Do you mean that I may grab my wasp spray and give the trooper a blast?
Seriously, a good post.
I did it a little different than you guys about the commercial plates ,I had commercial plates and insurance in OK but OK did not require CDL's for the bus as it was a private RV vehicle.
OK allows you to have commercial plates on a car or pickup commercial plates were cheaper than private plates only difference was with the commercial plates the insurance limits were higher but the insurance premium wasn't much different in price for the 100,300,100 which was the minimum required for commercial plates.I carried more than the minimum
For awhile I would stop at the weigh stations and was always given the green light so I stopped pulling into to them
good luck
Thanks for the replies folks
Okay, to clarify some things. Ruthi, when we travel we sell books at different places, among other things.
Our conversion is a full bonified RV. We rarely stay at RV parks, because we Wally dock all of the time. We are setup for two weeks with only needing to get fresh water every four of five days. We have a kitchen, shower, full sized fridge/freezer, etc.
However, when Rick's fiasco came up, we started looking at the regs closer. We had always been told, RV you are fine. Don't worry about it. We started checking and found out that at the very least, we needed non-commercial class B's (check your state regs, folks, I think most states require this). There is nothing more to that test then taking a regular drivers written test, and going on a regular skills test. No biggie.
However, if you sell things (Jim, I am wondering about you, for example), like we do, you are a commercial carrier. That involves getting a Class B CDL, DOT#, inspections, weigh stations, log book, fuel tax (what a headache), IFTA....just ask any trucker.
BTW, Rick. Our insurance just went up like 800 dollars, and I am not sure if that is a year, of six months. It didn't seem too bad.
However, we were pleased that we should be fine as far as axle weights go. We can run 18.2K on the steer axle legally. They don't care about what the sticker says. They just care about what the tire is rated for. That means that right now our bus can carry 62.4k lbs. However we registered it right under 54k, because that saves on tax (and we won't load it up that much either). I don't remember what we weigh empty, but I think it is 42K (actually that is with a full tank of fuel and water, but no grey or black water, and the bays completely empty).
Again, we have researched this incredibly. We have looked at just about every angle we can. The law is the law, and it says we have to be commercial. There just really isn't any way around it.
Ya'll make your own decisions. I am grateful for your help. And I would like to thank RickB for bringing this to our attention. You mentioned how you might give up the bus (which would be very sad), but you helped us keep our bus. Thank you sir!
Thanks again.
God bless,
John
John, you will sleep better knowing you are legal it was never a problem for me only thing in my bus was someone telling me which way to go and she is good at that lol
good luck
Rick, we have never made a dime shooting rockets. There are no prizes. There have been some TV shows on rocketry with cheesey contests, but no actual prizes and no payment for being on TV. The last rocketry TV show we participated in was well before I even had the bus.
One of the guys wants to letter our trailer with our rocket club name and I don't really want him to do that. I don't want to invite any possible scrutiny as a commercial venture. I would prefer to leave the trailer nameless.
Quote from: John316 on October 05, 2010, 06:58:50 PM
However, when Rick's fiasco came up, we started looking at the regs closer. We had always been told, RV you are fine. Don't worry about it. We started checking and found out that at the very least, we needed non-commercial class B's (check your state regs, folks, I think most states require this). There is nothing more to that test then taking a regular drivers written test, and going on a regular skills test. No biggie.
I know that North Carolina requires a non-commercial class B for RV's with a Gross weight over 26,001 pounds.
John, I have been wanting to post on this (and other similar threads), since we do attend RV trade shows with the bus and service vehicle.
There are two issues in this thread. First is driver's license requirement. I have a Class A CDL, so that is not an issue.
The second issue is setting the combined rig us as an interstate business vehicle. My service truck is clearly labeled that we have a business. I love the wrap, but am thinking about having the wrap changed to clear white so as not to flag the enforcement folks too much.
Most of the vendors at the shows have magnetic signs that they put on the toad when they get to the show.
Even if I have the wrap changed, it is still a truck with a service bed and that might be enough to flag the folks. All they would have to do is subpoena my tax records and they would see that we declare part of our trips as a business expense. Heck all they would have to do is to read this post (considered not posting for that reason). Can you say paranoid?
It is sad that these folks put up a roadblock to a small business person who pays taxes and tries to contribute to the economy. The economy has driven our business to the brink and we may have to pull the plug on trade shows and maybe the business in total.
Jim
Brian,
I didn't mean that comment literally, I was trying to point out how far the DOT may try to go to prove someone is commercial and I think not putting names, logo's or images of what you may be carrying or racing or whatever on the outside of our coaches or our trailers is probably pretty smart.
John,
Are you a 45 footer because my bus is right around 32k? I am surprised that your bus is that heavy.
I'm not normally super sensitive to rights and freedom's but it does strike me as odd that my home state that took such poor care in building and maintaining a bridge in Mpls that it fell and killed and injured a number of folks is all of a sudden so interested in collecting tax. I hope they put the extra tax dollars that they collect to good use like actually fixing and maintaining our highways and bridges. One can hope right?
I have to admit that having gotten to know all of you people that visit this forum weighs heavily on my decisions regarding the future with our bus. As imperfect as we are and as much as we fight over silly stuff sometimes I have learned so much and I have formed a good number of what I hope to be lifetime friendships through this crazy internet family. I think we represent the modern day cowboy. We like to ride where ever and when ever we want, if it's broke we'll at least try and fix it ourselves and we don't suffer fools very well either. We are fiercely loyal and supportive to one another when stuff happens... and stuff happens alot with bus folks now doesn't it? Must be something in the coach water... ;D :D
May you all have a good night and an even better tomorrow.
Happy trails,
Rick
Jim, That really is good that you have a CDL. That certainly does take care of one of the issues. Otherwise, it is obviously up to you about whether you are commercial or not. I can tell you it is a ROYAL PAIN going commercial. I think the biggest thing, like Rick said, is they want to get you for tax evasion. However, the thing of it is, we could probably travel for many more years without an issue. The problem is the one time that it is an issue. But I 100% agree with you, Jim. The gov seems to want to push small businesses out. They want you to do all sorts of crazy stuff. Our country would have way more economy if the gov just backed off. But that isn't going to happen :'(
Rick, our conversion also weighs more then the standard conversion. We have about 1k lbs of batteries, 1K of generator, the outside walls are covered in 1/2" plywood, and the floor is built up 1" with 1/2" plywood on top. That is the kind of stuff that adds up quickly. We also framed the inside of the bus out with 2x2" solid oak. Okay, now that I said that, I looked back over the list. That really probably isn't too far out from a standard conversion. And yes we are 45' long.
How much fuel do you all carry? We carry right at 215. I wonder if that could add more then is normal?
Clifford summed it up very well for us. We will sleep better at night, knowing that we are legal. We always thought we were, but with new info, hence the change.
Thanks again for the help.
God bless,
John
John I don't understand why you are running commercial tags if you are not hauling people?
As for troopers as a source of information?
You can ask three troopers the SAME QUESTION and in turn receive THREE OPPOSING VIEWS so that is that.
The only place we were ever hassled was the P.O.E. in Needles California and that was because we did not have "papers" on a 30 year old parrot (Go figure?). Now we just exit at MP-01 and drive six miles upstream to a bridge and circumvent their dumb a**.
Lastly, why would you want to stop and ask for problems, hammer it down and just keep on truckin. If they want you they will chase you down and explain it to you later.
BCO
I would like to know if someone parks their bus at your house and when they toss a $50 on your counter as a gesture of thanks, do you all the sudden become a camp ground and owe a butt load in taxes and get threaten with tax fraud for not reporting it? I think your trip with good will tips should be the same thing. I would not think you become a commercial vehicle. The other thing is if you have a house you can rent it for 14 days with not having to pay taxes. So is your bus not considered one of your homes? Don't let them push you real hard.
I am glad I am reading this post. I own a watch company and was planning on putting the watch brand and an advertisment wrap on the back end but now may consider not doing so. I wouldn't be selling anything from the coach, just an advertisement which is free because I didn't charge myself anything for it :) and just shows a picture of the watches.
What gets me is why would a bus be commercial if you wrap it or carry something and your pickup truck isn't?
I'm in Alabama and there isn't any commercial tags for autos but there are of course for semi's.
As for that RV pulling that race car, that is the reason people don't like the way the government is headed or most troopers either. There shouldn't be a difference whether you pull your race car with your tuck or bus!!! >:(
stolaas,
The problem is the weight. If you tow a race car to the track with your pickup and the combined weight is not over 10k lbs. you are not considered commercial, but if you tow that car in an enclosed trailer behind a freightliner and win money on the weekend they consider you commercial. At least here in MN it's just that simple
I think the government being too involved in our lives is a serious issue but I think voter turnouts of less than 20% of the population is even more troubling. If we want changes in government policy we can't just stay at home come election day and gripe about it, we need to get off our couches, drive to city hall and vote. Things don't change just because we don't like them they change because we replace folks in office with people who align with our values. I really encourage everyone on this blog to get educated about what politician best reflects your views and vote.
Alright, alright I'll take my meds now and put away the soapbox ;D ;D
Rick
Quote from: RickB on October 06, 2010, 08:23:20 AM
At least here in MN it's just that simple
I wonder if you have your truck/trailer/bus/rig licensed in another state and then cross the border into MN, do the rules for the state of where you are licensed apply or the rules for MN? Or, maybe it doesn't matter - if all the states base their rules on something that comes out of Washington, DC, then they will all be about the same?
Mike
BoxCar,
We actually only double checked some or our answers by calling the troopers. Our real source of info was a gent that worked for the DOT. He is a GREAT guy to work with. He wasn't one of those that said you had to do everything, just because he didn't care. He very patiently showed us the statutes and everything. He is not your typical DOT gent. We only called several troopers on one question (tagged weight for the axle v. tire weight). Everybody's answers lined up, and the regs that we can find all agree. So the troopers were only to double check that. Otherwise it was Mr. DOT (again he was great, I wonder why all gov employees can't be like him?).
Also we are no longer a "bus" or an "RV." We are titled the same as a semi truck. We have the same tags that a Semi does. In the govs eyes we are just like a truck now.
As far as why we looked into it further? Well, pleading the ignorance in court often doesn't go to far. For example, if you caused a wreck, and you weren't commercial when you should have been, you are in deep water. We aren't talking about a simple, "We are going to take your bus." We are talking about jail time. We always try to do our best to obey the laws. It is better to follow them, then to ignore them. Especially when something happens to warn us (thanks RickB).
Eddie, I don't understand all of the laws either. I just know the ones that we have to follow right now (at least I hope I know most of them, I don't think you can ever know them all).
Stolaas, I think that legally you would be fine to wrap your bus, IF you never sell them out of your bus, and IF you never take your bus to tradeshows or conventions. I read a statute that said something to the effect of "a sign or wrap alone, does not make a vehicle commercial." However, I would suggest you check into it yourself. I am not a CMV lawyer though ;).
However, I do think that most all states require anybody who is driving a vehicle over 26K to get a non-commercial class B. That isn't a big deal at all. It is the same test that you took to get your regular DL. Same driving test and everything, for us anyways.
Oh, yes, you asked how a pickup wouldn't have to be commercial. If the GCVWR (that is combined rating) of the vehicle (including the trailer) is under 10K you are fine. Most trucks fit into this category. However, over that and they would like you to get a CDL. The thing is, most people don't know about it, and they haven't cracked down on it. That is the way it is out state anyways.
And believe me folks, we have looked at this just about every way we can. It is a major headache, that we would rather not do. But we do what we can to do what is right.
God bless,
John
Almost every newer pickup on the road would need a CDL if it was based simply on the GCVWR. I think every 1/2 ton pickup made today has a GCVWR of at least 10,000lbs. 3/4 and 1 ton pickups most certainly are over this limit.
Quote from: belfert on October 06, 2010, 10:05:16 AM
Almost every newer pickup on the road would need a CDL if it was based simply on the GCVWR. I think every 1/2 ton pickup made today has a GCVWR of at least 10,000lbs. 3/4 and 1 ton pickups most certainly are over this limit.
Sorry if I missed something, but where did the 10,000 lbs. come from? I just picked up the MN CDL book, and it says that a Class A CDL is required if "towing a unit of more than 10,000 pounds GVWR with a gross combination weight rating (truck plus trailer) over 26,000 pounds." A Class B is required for a "single-unit vehicle that is over 26,000 pounds GVWR." So I think if you are driving a pickup with a trailer under 10,000 pounds and your total weight (truck and trailer) is under 26,000 pounds, you should be okay (my opinion).
Also, reading this book, it says any single vehicle with a GVW exceeding 26,000 pounds would be considered a CMV. It doesn't list any exceptions, like for an RV. It also doesn't say anything that defines "commerce" - at least not that I can see. So if you use your vehicle as John does and transport items for sale, where is that defined as "commerce" or "business". I know this book is intended only to be a summary of the law, so the actual wording of the law would be the final word on the subject.
I think there is plenty of gray in between the black and white here, but being forewarned is to be forearmed. I applaud John for taking this step, it could save them a lot of grief. Maybe one way to look at is that you can pay the $$$ for the extra insurance, tags, inspections, etc., now, or you can pay a lawyer to defend you later. (John, do you want to comment on how much this is costing you so we can learn from it?) I think keeping a log book of your driving hours and pre- and post-trip inspections is a good idea even if you are licensed as an RV.
All this is just my opinion. My mind is open to learning more and changing it. ;)
Mike
I think there is a misunderstanding here.
If you are towing a restored vehicle that weighs 4000 lbs with a 6500 lb truck and a 2000 lb trailer you are over 10k but unless you are towing the vehicle to have it make money for you in some way you are fine.
But if you are towing the same vehicle to a house to sell it or if you're being paid to have it used in a movie or a race car that could receive prize money you are considered commercial.
Taking the restored car to the junkyard is totally legal but taking it to the scrapyard for salvage and being paid for it is against the law in the state of Minnesota if your GVCWR is over 10,000 lbs.
It is my understanding that it is the same thing with a class A license you do not need a Class A if you're vehicle is over the 26k lb threshold unless you are using it for commercial purposes. One of the earlier posts had a godd description of how they define a commercial vehicle.
I think the problem is that most of these government officials who work for the DMV and Highway Patrol don't always know the law. When I bought my tag for my bus, the lady at the DMV told me I didn't need any special licence to operate it as long as I didn't carry over 9 passengers or carry any freight as it was titled as a private bus not for hire. The tag cost me I think $31.00. I called and talked to another DMV officer at the licence office and he told me it was a grey area and could not give me a direct answer other than to say it depended on who stopped me as to whether I was legal which is non-sense. Either a person IS legal or they are NOT legal. After searching the NCDMV laws, I did find it in black and white that I do need a non-commercial class B to operate ANYTHING over 26,000 lbs no matter what it is titled as. I also found out while doing my searches that many other states also require a special licence on anything over the 26K or over 40ft in length so it is best to search your own state laws yourself instead of relying on someone at the DMV that could steer you wrong. I learned a long time ago that ignorance of the law is not a good defense and will usually not stand up in court.
There is another post that just came up about full timing. I believe the officer also pointed out to me that Minnesota does not allow full timing. They designate a clear difference between an RV and a mobile home and if you were take it to the letter of the law as it stands in MN is you don't qualify for RV plates if you are full timing in your bus you are considered a mobile home at that point.
The plot thickens ;D
I would think if you are selling a service or product from the bus and have a Federal Id number or a sales tax numbers and take the tax write off for a business like mileage and up keep on your bus and when it comes push to shove in most states they are going to call you commercial.
I never took the chance myself I never wrote off anything on my bus fuel or nothing sooner or later the tax man prevails and will have the records to prove it plus I didn't need those guys in my life.
Watch what goes on the tax forms it will come back to bite you big time
carry on
Yup, Rick is correct. I can tell he has spent some time looking into it. He did a great job explaining it. It is confusing where the 26k comes into play, and the 10K.
Highway yacht is so right. That is the problem with the DMV folks. They often don't know. I was told by our local ones some of the same mis-info. That is why we were SO grateful for the gent that helped us. When we called the troopers (we talked with a VERY helpful sergeant) and he said that this guy was THE expert in the state. It was great.
God bless,
John
John, do you have DOT #'s now or just the semi plate? Its all about revenue in my opinion. Class A license and probably a B are alot more expensive, you may need a DOT physical every couple of years to keep it etc, etc. Fines are going up, every town has its own court and more police cars than stray cats. My new favorite is the no jake brake laws! Less goverment.
Ok i got it now, just read the sad story of Rick B's accident. Minn. is getting alot of bad press lately for harrassing truckers with out of service orders for BS reasons. court decision is now pending.
As I was reviewing MN statutes ..... you got some pretty screwy laws up there - not representative of most states - What's with the NO MOTOR VEHICLE SALES ON SUNDAY deal?
Quote from: niles500 on October 06, 2010, 11:15:54 PM
As I was reviewing MN statutes ..... you got some pretty screwy laws up there - not representative of most states - What's with the NO MOTOR VEHICLE SALES ON SUNDAY deal?
Laws against retail sales are called Blue laws. Blue laws were much more common in the previous century and many of them have been repealed. The laws are a state mandate to observe Sunday as a day of rest and also encourage folks to attend church services. North Dakota still doesn't allow retailers to operate from Midnight to Noon on Sundays. A special exception was made during the 2009 flooding so Walmart and others could sell flood supplies 24 hours a day.
Various attempts have been made to get rid of the State of MN Sunday auto sales prohibition. Car dealers want to keep the ban as they claim their expenses would go up while still selling the same number of cars. It isn't too likely that someone decides they need a car on Sunday and decide come Monday they don't really need one.
I have to admit my wife and I have had numerous discussions about the above mentioned no jake brake laws. It's pretty funny when we pass the no jake brake sign and we are passed by a dozen or so harleys that absolutely deafen us. I guess council members are more likely to own a hog than an 18 wheeler
At least some of those Jake laws stem from intentional abuse by truckers. Where I used to live in North Florida (max elevation 345 feet), it was the local gravel trucks who loved to come rolling through town playing with the Jakes.
The signs originally said "No Jake Brakes" but they had to change it to "Engine Brakes". Jacobs watches that pretty close and threatened a lawsuit if they didn't change the signs.
Quote from: belfert
North Dakota still doesn't allow retailers to operate from Midnight to Noon on Sundays. A special exception was made during the 2009 flooding so Walmart and others could sell flood supplies 24 hours a day.
Wow I guess many fine folks in ND don't even know this as I used to live in Fargo (2 yrs and then I got my butt back down south where I belong and intend to stay!) and the Super Walmart was open 24/7 and never refused to sell me anything!
Also every corner bar (almost everyone anyway) also has a package store attached to it and sells up until closing time 7 days a week. (3 AM if I remember right)
If course Fargo is the only town I know of or have ever been to where the city closes down due to a blizzard and the roads being impassable, but if you want to get somewhere (anywhere really) you just follow the back route of any bar heading to the nearest bar to where you want to go and the plow drivers have the route nice and clear. (from bar to bar and only on the secondary routes, not the main roads!)
Hmmm. (just always has been one of those things that made me say Hmmm!)
;D BK ;D
On the "no jake brake" laws I had a lawyer who loved fighting those tickets for me! Most times we never ever even had to appear. But if needed he did appear and the Judge would always get disgusted and throw it out of court when he would ask "since when is it legal for a community to outlaw a safety device that is designed to help large vehicle slow or stop while saving the main brake system from failure?"
Of course I didn't go around using my jakes just to rattle windows either, but if it was on a hill I did! (Like coming into Salt Lake City on I-80 right next to the country club and golf course!)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 07, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
Quote from: belfert
North Dakota still doesn't allow retailers to operate from Midnight to Noon on Sundays. A special exception was made during the 2009 flooding so Walmart and others could sell flood supplies 24 hours a day.
Wow I guess many fine folks in ND don't even know this as I used to live in Fargo (2 yrs and then I got my butt back down south where I belong and intend to stay!) and the Super Walmart was open 24/7 and never refused to sell me anything!
From everything I can tell North Dakota still has this law. Walmart might use the exception for grocery stores to keep the grocery side of the store open 24/7. I recall going up to Fargo to help with sand bagging and hearing them talk on the radio about the special exception to the Blue law so stores could be open Sunday morning to sell flood supplies.
Liquor laws are generally different than laws about general retailers. Retailers can be open 7 days a week here in Minnesota, but liquor stores can't open on Sundays.
Quote from: belfert on October 07, 2010, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 07, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
Quote from: belfert
North Dakota still doesn't allow retailers to operate from Midnight to Noon on Sundays. A special exception was made during the 2009 flooding so Walmart and others could sell flood supplies 24 hours a day.
Wow I guess many fine folks in ND don't even know this as I used to live in Fargo (2 yrs and then I got my butt back down south where I belong and intend to stay!) and the Super Walmart was open 24/7 and never refused to sell me anything!
From everything I can tell North Dakota still has this law. Walmart might use the exception for grocery stores to keep the grocery side of the store open 24/7. I recall going up to Fargo to help with sand bagging and hearing them talk on the radio about the special exception to the Blue law so stores could be open Sunday morning to sell flood supplies.
Liquor laws are generally different than laws about general retailers. Retailers can be open 7 days a week here in Minnesota, but liquor stores can't open on Sundays.
We go to Fargo quite often and almost all the stores we would want to go to are open. The mall is in full swing, Scheels (large sporting goods store) is open, most of the strip malls are open. If we are there on Sunday, it is in the afternoon, so I guess I don't know about the morning, we are in church. ;) I think the only thing that is closed are the auto dealers and the liquor stores. We don't go to either, so I can't comment on them.
In Minnesota, I have found about the same: the auto dealers and repair shops and liquor stores are closed. I think probably the auto parts stores are closed, too, as the biggest part of their business is the auto repair shops, so their business is dried up, why stay open? I like that the auto dealers are closed because you can wander around and peak in the windows without a half dozen salespeople asking you if you want a test drive.
Mike
DMDave,
Yes we do have DOT number, IFTA, inspection sticker, log book, daily pre-trip inspection logs, medical card, drug testing, every weigh station, yada, yada, yada. The whole nine yards.
I agree too much government. Oh well. The law is the law.
God bless,
John
This post is another one I have resisted from posting on and now I have to say.
We have rights right or wrong. If you use your bus for commercial use then Licence it for that. If you live in the gray area of the law then make them prove you need all this BS.
MY RANT
John
I agree with the "No engine brake sign crap 100%" Most any bus I have driven the jakes are so quiet I doubt anyone would know they are even being used.
On to the topic at hand, weight stations:
As many of you know, I have a PRIVATE EAGLE MOTORHOME and I drive COMMERCIAL ENTERTAINER COACHES to buy groceries.
This question has always bothered me. It seems I cannot find out where or when I am supposed to stop. The following describes what I do. I am not 100% sure it is right, it is just what my experience tells me I should do.
If I am driving my Eagle motorhome I do not stop at any weight stations. If I am going through one of the "weigh in motion type things like in LA., I try to get in the left lane as to not set off the "enter weight station sign". I stop at border checks (no choice) and "produce checkpoints" (think California).
I used to stop, and was always told to "get out of here"
I have never been chased down by the guys at the station.
If I am driving a commercial entertainer coach, I usually do what the sign says. If it has the word BUS on it, I pull in. If it does not I pass it up. If I catch a "weigh in motion" and it says pull in, I do. When I pull in I usually get a green light. If they do come out to say anything it one of two questions. One is "Why did you stop?", the other is "Who are got on board?, any chance for a CD or T-shirt, photo, autograph, etc" They then ask why I stopped. I have never been given any trouble by stopping. I do everything I am supposed to do. Medical card, class A license with passenger endorsement, logbook, fuel permit (if applicable), etc. I try to keep a few autographed photos handy to give them just to avoid trouble. I do not mind a bit. These guys are working just like we do.
The only time I have been chased down is recently in Minnesota. As our friend who had the wreck learned, they are having a serious problem. I will detour the state if time permits. I absolutely hate Minnesota.
As a few others have mentioned I think the problem lies with entertainers registering their bus as a motorhome. There are numerous cost saving reasons to do this but it has given us a bad rap. A lot of the "drivers" are not really legal drivers. Just because you can drive a car does not make you a bus driver unless you have some training and the correct license and all the things that go with it.
I will say if you are driving your private converted bus, you should be able to do so without any flack from the law enforcement folks. Most of the bus-nut folks I have met keep their buses in better shape mechanically than most automobiles. They know their coach and how it works front to back, inside and out. They take an enormous amount of pride in their coach and keep it in top shape as best they can at all times.
I have another story I should not tell but I will not give the guys name:
This guy is may main employer. He uses 11-12 buses and several trucks on his tours. He leases all but his own bus from Hemphill Bros (they are all properly licensed commercial coaches). He registers his bus as a motorhome even though he makes about $500K-1M each night he works. He has been given trouble by DOT. They even came to his home one time. He told them it was his and his alone. He said nobody rides but me and my wife and driver and nobody was going to convince him any different. He said it was for his private personal use.
Well guess who won. His bus now has DOT numbers on the side and is sporting a Texas commercial inspection stcker now. ;)
I am not trying to claim I know it all and really, really hope this post comes across as my humble attempt to help. With all the mis-information out there, I doubt anyone really "knows it all" at this point
I always have an open ear on this problem we have, especially with our own buses. Any more info would be great!
Best,
Justin
Okay guys, I know this is very old, but I wanted to give you all an update.
Our bus is now a commercial outfit. It has been a huge pain. The bottom line is, if you are selling anything, you must be commercial (MikeH, this is something for you to consider). It turns out that if you are simply transporting your own goods to sell for yourself, you must be a private carrier.
Then you must keep logs, maintenance records, drug testing, inspections, CDL, health card, weigh stations, fuel tax, and the list goes on and on.
Once again, from what we have found, if you carry anything to sell, you must be commercial.
RickB, I would like to thank you for bringing this to our attention. Just so you know you didn't have to wreck your bus for us, but thanks anyways ;D
God bless,
John
Quote from: John316
... The bottom line is, if you are selling anything, you must be commercial ... It turns out that if you are simply transporting your own goods to sell for yourself, you must be a private carrier....
John,
These sentences seem to contradict each other. If you sell books, are you not selling them for yourself? If you collect junk and take it to a swap meet, are you not selling it as a private individual? Where do you draw the line? Can you clarify this a little for us?
Thanks,
Mike
Quote from: MikeH on December 29, 2010, 07:33:40 AM
... If you sell books, are you not selling them for yourself? If you collect junk and take it to a swap meet, are you not selling it as a private individual? Where do you draw the line?
The exact same place the IRS does.
If you buy books to read, read them, and then sell them at a garage sale, you are selling your own personal property. If you buy books in bulk, or odd lots, or on eBay, and then take them to swap meets just to sell them, in order to make a profit, then you owe income tax on the profit and it is a commercial enterprise.
Lot's of people selling stuff for profit on eBay, for example, have been doing so illegally for years, and the IRS is finally catching up to them. eBay just notified everyone that they will now be reporting sales numbers to the IRS, due to a change in the reporting rules that takes effect on January 1.
If you go to the flea market every month and have a booth there, it won't be long before everyone knows you are a vendor and not some guy selling off his lifetime collection of personal possessions. And that makes you commercial in the eyes of the law, whether that's for tax purposes or motor vehicles.
As has already been beaten to death here, lots and lots of people get away with noncompliance, sometimes for decades, but that does not change the legality of it.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I believe the "Private Carrier" that John mentioned was just the class within the Commercial license, as opposed to a "For Hire Carrier". Both require the commercial DOT registrations and a CDL. Difference is whether you haul inventory owned by you or your company or are in the business of hauling cargo for others.
http://www.tislimited.com/miscellaneous_terminology.php (http://www.tislimited.com/miscellaneous_terminology.php)
MikeH, I am sorry, let me clarify. I get so used to using the "lingo" that I forget others don't know.
Mike(HTR) is also right. You still have to be commercial, and all of that. However, there are a couple of different rules if you are simply a "private carrier." You still are commercial, but you are "private" in the fact that I can't contract for you to deliver my goods to the next state. I ONLY carry my materials to sell, not anybody else's.
However, I think it would be different if I go to a flea market (I have nothing to sell, and I am just going). I am wearing a nice leather coat, and a gent says he wants a coat just like that one, and offers me $300 for it. I don't believe that would qualify (but there shouldn't be any decision made based on my advice).
That is why on our bus we have our DOT number, and all of that stuff, and a part that says "not for hire." Does it help us? I don't know. Do I feel better having put that on? Yes I do.
And Sean, yes they are cracking down on those kind of infringements. They need money, so they start with the easy stuff.
HTH
God bless,
John
John, Mike, & Sean,
Thanks for the clarification. I'm trying to learn as much about this as I can so when a bus comes into our lives we are ready to do it right the first time. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse deader (if that is a word), just trying to use this discussion to glean as much helpful info as possible. Thanks for your patience and willingness to share your knowledge and experience.
Mike