My alternator is only 24volts. I am thinking about a project but would need about 96 or more volts charging power from the engine. Is this possible without stressing my engine?
Voltage is not the problem-how many amps are you thinking of. One horsepower equals 750 watts. Give us a clue what you're thinking.
The easiest is to use the big Delco 50DN 270amp at 27.2 volts (that's 7344 watts [27.2 volts when running]) to power a 4,000 watt inverter. Remember, AC power requires the power source to be turning at exactly 1800rpm, or 3600rpm to create 60 cycles per second. Variable speed on the bus engine can't do this-hence the inverter theory. Good Luck, TomC
The 24V alternator is capable of only 24-28VDC output. Might you be thinking about 96 Amps? If that's the case the alternator is capable of that output. If you are entertaining converting something ex-military that requires 96 volts (and in my mind clouded old age I can't imagine what) it might be 96 VAC but @ 400 HZ.
You've got me puzzled so I'll watch this thread to see how the mystery unfolds.
NCbob
I'm guessing that you're thinking of an electric-powered toad - electric vehicle motors often run at 96volts.
It's actually a nice idea which I've thought of myself in the past - especially as the toad can become a (very big) house battery bank for the bus. Bear in mind though that the 96v you generate to charge the toad isn't 'free', or even particularly cheap - burning diesel to generate electricity isn't an efficient process.
Jeremy
BINGO!!!! And the winner is Jeremy!!! Step right up son and get a new bus for your insight!!! ;D ;D ;D
But yes, that is what I am working on is an ev toad which will house my battery pack for the house system on the bus.
As far as the efficiency, my brother is supplying me with biodiesel so that helps.
Cool...please let us know all the gory details as the project progresses. I've spent a lot of time looking at websites of people who've built their own electric vehicles, and it's definitely do-able - although given the high initial cost of the motors and speed controllers, and the relatively short life of the batteries, it isn't necessarily economically viable. Compromises on both motors and batteries can be made though if performance (power and/or duration) isn't that important. I've not come across any viable alternative to the very pricey specialist speed controllers yet though.
Oh, and by the way - I have a UVA Fugitive (Beetle-based rail buggy) sitting in my back garden which has a 'future electric toad' label attached to it.
Jeremy
PS. Where do I pick up my new bus prize??
Your bus prize is sitting on the trailer, just awaiting your delivery instructions.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17594.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17594.0)
Quote from: Len Silva on September 29, 2010, 03:17:32 PM
Your bus prize is sitting on the trailer, just awaiting your delivery instructions.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17594.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17594.0)
Gee, thanks...
Jeremy
PS.
There's probably no need to worry about getting 96v from the bus's alternator....if you're towing your toad with it running on the road (rather than sitting on a trailer), it should be fairly straightforward to arrange it to charge it's own batteries as it's being pulled along (ie. it's motor acting as a dynamo). It'd be quite easy to overcharge the batteries like this though, so you'd need some kind of system to protect against that.
If you EV has regenerative braking it could charge it's self whilst being towed.
Don't think I would want my house bank remote from the house.
Don't think I would want to have to take the toad everywhere.
Don't think I would want to have the toad always hooked up when camped or stored.
Don't think it would be easy to up convert to 96V to power the toad then down convert to something usable by coach electronics.
We never learn unless someone tries.
Good luck
Don 4107
Okay guys, Im thinking (trouble comes now) that it might be possible and safe to have the ev toad carry the house batteries instead of the bus.
1) While driving down the road the alternator on the bus would run to the toad's charge controller and charge the batteries, at the same time I would run the battery's juice back to the bus' inverter.
2) Have a generator on the toad for emergency charging and boondocking.
3) When at a campground plug it into one of the RV house electrical outlets. My bus would be plugged into the campground site of course.
4) I only work about 10 miles from home and can charge while at work or home so this would also be my daily driver.
I dont know much of anything about electrical stuff and am probably going to end up hiring someone to help me with my bus electrical system, let alone all this. But this is my idea and dream. Im also open for options on solar power to make this work right.
Quote from: TomC on September 29, 2010, 02:24:02 PM
Voltage is not the problem-how many amps are you thinking of. One horsepower equals 750 watts. Give us a clue what you're thinking.
The easiest is to use the big Delco 50DN 270amp at 27.2 volts (that's 7344 watts [27.2 volts when running]) to power a 4,000 watt inverter. Remember, AC power requires the power source to be turning at exactly 1800rpm, or 3600rpm to create 60 cycles per second. Variable speed on the bus engine can't do this-hence the inverter theory. Good Luck, TomC
Tom is right, the
power is what you need to figure out. What kind of EV are you thinking? If your EV is a home-brew, you may have better luck using an isolated charger to each battery. This is what I'm looking to do for my house/chassis banks. A single 28.8VDC alternator powering a ultracapacitor-attached "bus". Step-down regulators attached to that "bus" will charge each of the 2V house batteries independantly, plus charge the 12V chassis batteries independantly. Shore power would be rectified and stepped down to 28.8VDC right at the connection panel. Similar to an airplane, I'll end up with 4 choices for powering each load: Chassis-A, Chassis-B, House, and Shore - simple control logic will allow DC load circuits to switch to different power supplies as conditions and availability change, shed loads as power is used up, and retain emergency operation of critical systems while in-use. AC appliances will each have their own properly sized/wave-form inverter as close to the point of load as possible (usually modified into the device enclosure).
The size of the bank is what determines your alternator need - I am staring down the barrel of a C.E Niehoff N1701 (910A @ 28.8VDC or roughly 25kW) they make them big, they just cost more... A big part of my engine HP boost project is going into covering the load of the huge alternator (not making it go up hills faster...)
Once you have the power available, you can build a step-up or "boost" controller which will convert 28.8VDC to 96VDC (charging if this is lead-acid will probably require 115VDC...) - but remember that power is Volts x Amps. 28.8 volts at 100 amps is 2.88kW, that only works out to 30Amps of charging at 96VDC (before you account for loss in the conversion).
-T
Tim I know you were speaking english :o I also know your heart is in the right place, but I didnt understand hardly a word you said.
Jeremy could you expand on how the toad would recharge the batteries by not being on a trailor? I intend on pulling it 4 down. Most of the stuff I have read about regenerative braking (which wouldnt work with it being 4 down anyway) is not good, the stuff I have read says that for the weight of the system against the little bit of power that is recouped it isnt really worth it.
Charging the toad's batteries by towing it behind the bus is quite simple in principle:- when toad is being driven under it's own power, it's electric motor is converting electricity from the batteries into the rotational movement of the wheels; but this process will work almost as well in reverse - in other words, if the toad's wheels are being turned by an outside force (ie., it's being towed along by the bus), the electric motor then acts as a dynamo to produce electricity, which charges the batteries.
This isn't quite the same as regenerative braking, which is when you use the braking action (ie. actually using the brake pedal, not simply letting the car coast) to generate electricity to charge the batteries. Regenerative braking is technically quite a complex thing to arrange as you have to use electronics to alter the charging 'load' to match the amount of braking force required - and naturally there are all sorts of safety features and back-ups built into the system to make sure the brake system works perfectly every time (not even Toyota get this bit right...).
So a simple charge-as-you-tow system would be fairly straightforward, but proper regenerative braking - as you say - isn't easy or cheap
Jeremy
Jeremy I love you!!! Really?!! The motor creates energy while the wheels are turning even when the engine is off?! That is better yet!! Are there certain types of electric motors that would do that, or is that the way they are geared? I had no idea!
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 04:56:34 PM
Tim I know you were speaking english :o I also know your heart is in the right place, but I didnt understand hardly a word you said...
;D - Let's start with what EV you are thinking... Tesla Roadster or a home-built EV?
Quote from: Jeremy on September 29, 2010, 05:41:50 PM...in other words, if the toad's wheels are being turned by an outside force (ie., it's being towed along by the bus), the electric motor then acts as a dynamo to produce electricity, which charges the batteries. This isn't quite the same as regenerative braking, which is when you use the braking action (ie. actually using the brake pedal, not simply letting the car coast) to generate electricity to charge the batteries...
...So a simple charge-as-you-tow system would be fairly straightforward, but proper regenerative braking - as you say - isn't easy or cheap
I'm going to go out on a limb and say (especially if it's a manufactured EV) unless the vehicle came with an existing regen braking system, don't bother with this approach (the motor controller would need to be built to handle it or it won't happen) - note that the same
system will be charging the batteries as regen braking, but you won't be pushing the pedal. Also remember - in order to impart spinning energy into the EV's wheels a force has to act against it (i.e. your bus pulling). This extra load may take you from 25MHP up an incline down to 5MPH, and it won't work while you're waiting at a traffic light (no-spin, no-charge). By having the wheels attached to the motor draggin against the bus, the EV might also have issues on wet pavement - typically you want your trailer/toad tires to free-wheel until you aply the brakes (which raises another interesting concept - how would you control the brakes on your EV?).
I'd venture a guess, it will be far less complicated/dangerous if you run a big fat cable from the bus to the EV and charge it directly. The jist of what I was saying above is that you don't necissarily need to create 96V at the alternator to have 96V on the EV - this can be done with some fairly comon hardware, and more than one way. The big question is, how much power do you need to charge the EV? Even if you don't have the answer directly, many of us here on the board can probably do research on the side if we know more about the EV you are looking at towing...
Best,
-T
This would be a VW bus turned ev. I dont know which motor or controller yet and am thinking about just buying a used ev on ebay to gut and put into the VW.
There is a club in this area that has a meeting next month I just found out about where their focus is on building ev vehicles. I am right now just trying to gather information and figure it out or hire someone to do a schematic. I havent bought anything yet, though I have read of things like even forklift motors being used for ev vehicles. I dont need much distance or speed, so I can stay small.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 07:51:29 PM
This would be a VW bus turned ev....
...I havent bought anything yet, though I have read of things like even forklift motors being used for ev vehicles...
I'm not a paid spokesperson, affiliated with anyone who works there, nor a paying customer - but check out EV Parts (http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/).
If you are building it yourself, I'd suggest not doing the "pull to charge" method - you will be able to pick your own batteries and charger, so you will be able to adapt it to charge from your bus alternator much easier than if you had a "store bought" EV. Keep in mind that most home-built EV's have a 30-60 mile/charge range at city speeds, and take a lot of power to recharge.
There isn't much to an EV - a body/frame, steering, brakes, and a drive system (batteries, controller, motor, speed input - see pick below...). On top of that, you need to get the power for the lights (to be road legal), this is easy to do with a DC-to-DC converter (http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/dc-dc-converters--dot/80-to-360-volt-input-street-vehicle-converters/dc2420.htm). Most home-built EV conversions retain the original manual transmission for the drivetrain - so on a VW, I'd recommend you learn stick if you haven't already ;).
There is little else involved except "will to do it", time, and money.
-T
I should have mentioned - you should go with an AC motor/controller if you want the benefit of regen...
Like this (http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/motors--dot/48-to-96-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt5615.htm).
-T
Just to play devils advocate..Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?
Would using an inverter and battery charger be easier? 24 volts from the big bus to the inverter, charger and batteries in the little bus.
No mater which system you develop I would think that in your area solar panels on the little bus would be a help.
Forklift SCR and EV1 systems along with their drive motors have been used for years on the Salt Flats to set world land speed records for electric vehicles...Cable
So according to that really nice site I would get away with something like this http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/motors--dot/48-to-96-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt5615.htm (http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/motors--dot/48-to-96-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt5615.htm) and then have a machine shop make an adapter to fit the transmission on the VW (and yes, lol..... I know how to drive a stick...... after all I am a woman with children! ;) :D ) And yes, the dc-dc converter for lights and radio or whatever. So for all this with that site I could get going for about $5000 plus the cost of batteries plus the cost of wires plus the cost of machining the adapter for the transmission. This is if I want to go with new stuff. I often see ev vehicles of comparable weight on ebay or craigslist for about $2000 usually home built stuff when the owner moves further from work or whatever and the ev doesn't get used and they dont want to lose their investment altogether because of the short lifespan of batteries OR they are upgrading their system.
With this kind of a set up, Mike has suggested that I be real cautious about running those heavy big wires from the bus to the toad. They will need extra protection against vibration and getting bounced around against moving metal parts like the hitch or road or whatever. I have to figure out something to protect them.
Would I just simply have a large inverter on the bus without a charger and hook the wires run straight from the batteries to the inverter or wouldn't I need some sort of a regulator in the system somewhere? And I need something where it would be easy to plug and unplug...
I would like to find out the cost difference in doing the alternator hookup on the rv and the ac motor regen. Cost will be a big factor here lol
As for running the house system, what do I need in between the batteries and the inverter on the rv? I thought I would run a larger pure sine wave inverter (my guess is I wont need one with a charger).
I want to put my little 3500 Onan generator in the VW to recharge the batteries when boondocking and to use in a pinch if Im out in town somewhere and need a quick charge to get back to camp. How would I set that up in the VW? What would I need to buy?
Sorry Cable, you were posting when I was.
"Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?"
Sure sounds like it from what Tim said.... Instead of going 25mph I would be doing 5mph :P
"inverter and battery charger be easier? 24 volts from the big bus to the inverter, charger and batteries in the little bus."
Dont know..... my job here is Happy Birthday messenger lol My ideas drive me nuts cuz I think of things I have no idea how to do lol
"No mater which system you develop I would think that in your area solar panels on the little bus would be a help."
Yes and no. The heat here destroys them quicker. Also when I travel in the rv I want to get OUT of the desert lol. I head for the trees!
"Forklift SCR and EV1 systems along with their drive motors have been used for years on the Salt Flats to set world land speed records for electric vehicles...Cable "
For anyone who thinks they cant be fast......... haha!! The torque on these little evs put a combustion engine to shame! Look what this little nothing Datsun did to a Corvette Electric Drag racing: White Zombie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrHXdM9f13k#)
Just want to add someting regarding obtaining high voltage from an alternator - it's completely do-able, and pretty simple to get high voltage. However, getting regulated high voltage is not easy - you'll need a custom voltage controller.
The method is simple - full fielding the alternator. It runs in unregulated mode, and can easily put out over 100V DC. Every alternator is slightly difference, so you'll have to do some research on how to full field yours.
Another thing: an alternator is current limited, not power limited. A 12V, 200A alternator, will also make 200A at 24V, and 200A at 120V. Current is what causes the field windings to heat up, not voltage. There is still a reasonable limit, of course, as I'm sure at extreme voltages the diodes and winding insulation would break down.
My other concern is the gasses released while the batts. are charging. Some sort of dog house with outside venting will be required. Unless you have unlimited funds to buy lithium battery packs...cable
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha "Unless you have unlimited funds to buy lithium battery packs...cable" hahahahahahahahahahahaha :'(
Roy I have no way to full field an alternator because I have no idea what that even means ??? ??? ???
"my job here is Happy Birthday messenger" And you're doing a Damnfine job of it too...Cable
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 09:55:35 PM
Roy I have no way to full field an alternator because I have no idea what that even means ??? ??? ???
It's one of those things that sounds more complicated than it actually is. Full fielding is simply by-passing the regulator and running your alternator in "let her loose" mode. On my bus's Leece Neville, it's as simple as grounding one of the brushes to the negative pole of the alternator.
Doing so causes the alternator to apply full voltage to the field windings, which in turn generates more voltage, and that higher voltage makes the windings even stronger, and the cycle continues.
I would never use it for battery charging though, as you have no way of controlling what voltage you get. You'll be seeing any where from 30v to 150v+ driving down the road.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 09:04:12 PM
Sorry Cable, you were posting when I was.
"Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?"
Sure sounds like it from what Tim said.... Instead of going 25mph I would be doing 5mph :P
Okay, I may be guilty of a bit of hyperbole there, but you can get the idea that dragging your heals may not be the best way to charge up a car...
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 08:48:39 PM...So for all this with that site I could get going for about $5000 plus the cost of batteries plus the cost of wires plus the cost of machining the adapter for the transmission. This is if I want to go with new stuff...
You forgot the conversion of any vacuum brake booster, and repair parts for the original vehicle (it may need a new clutch, shocks, etc...), and the framing for the battery pack (a monocoque construction of the VW will mean you need to build a battery cradle). Whatever demons are in the chassis you pick you have to deal with...
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 08:48:39 PM...With this kind of a set up, Mike has suggested that I be real cautious about running those heavy big wires from the bus to the toad. They will need extra protection against vibration and getting bounced around against moving metal parts like the hitch or road or whatever...
Big safety item = FUSE. Yes a 4/0 cable will try really hard to carry 2000Amps if it shorts + to -, but a fast-blow fuse on the + wire should keep a catastrophic failure from burning down your party wagon (you need these in your battery bank for the EV anyway). Much like welders and their cables, you need to keep an eye on the wear of them and the condition of the jacket – you can only do so much to keep the cables from rubbing on things, bunjee and plastic conduit between the bus and the VW holding up the cables (away from the hitch) would be a start (you'll need some loops of slack on each end), but even then they will eventually degrade under sunlight exposure. There are standard high-current quick-disconnect plugs you can use for this kind of cable (the same type you use on a forklift to hook-up the battery pack (http://www.allbatterysalesandservice.com/browse.cfm/2,743.html)).
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 08:48:39 PM...Would I just simply have a large inverter on the bus without a charger and hook the wires run straight from the batteries to the inverter or wouldn't I need some sort of a regulator in the system somewhere? And I need something where it would be easy to plug and unplug...
You will need some control first (of course this is after you get the EV going...). You won't want the EV to run down your starting (chassis) or house batteries when the bus is not running. Also if you are dead-set on a 96V system for the EV, this is kinda cool – you can put a few high-power relays in the EV's battery bank and have it reconfigure itself for 24VDC or 12VDC when the EV isn't "running". If you hook all 8 of your 12V batteries +to- on the outer +and- you'll see 96V. But, if you hook pairs of batteries +to-, you'll only see 24V. If you then connect those 4 pairs +to+ and –to– you still have 24V, but 4x the amps available (and you only need 24V to charge it from your bus, which you could do either with a second alternator or an isolator). See the below diagram as a rough example. Hook the relays up to the EV's ignition switch so it can reconfigure the pack for 96V again only when you need it "automajically".
Quote from: RoyJ on September 29, 2010, 09:17:13 PM
Just want to add something regarding obtaining high voltage from an alternator - it's completely do-able, and pretty simple to get high voltage. However, getting regulated high voltage is not easy - you'll need a custom voltage controller...
...Another thing: an alternator is current limited, not power limited. A 12V, 200A alternator, will also make 200A at 24V, and 200A at 120V. Current is what causes the field windings to heat up, not voltage. There is still a reasonable limit, of course, as I'm sure at extreme voltages the diodes and winding insulation would break down.
The rotating speed of the alternator will determine the maximum voltage it outputs. To properly get an alternator to output higher voltage, you need to rewind it (not fun) – most alternators are designed to a maximum intermittent RPM of 6500, with 5000 sustained as the limit. You also will probably need to replace all of the diodes in the rectifier since it has a maximum voltage (the part that takes the alternating current out of the alternator, and makes it roughly DC). To mildly correct RoyJ, an alternator is not "voltage" limited – and the "power" you can create is determined by temperature and the point of saturating the magnetic field (when it is fully saturated you can't make more electricity, only more heat {real bad!!}).
-T
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 29, 2010, 05:53:08 PM
Jeremy I love you!!!
Wow, this thread gets better and better...
Tim Strommen has rightly pointed out a couple of 'issues' with the charge-as-you-tow idea - in principle (there's that term again) both could be overcome quite easily by, for example, fitting a bypass cable to isolate the speed controller when charging, and a rheostat to limit the charge current, and hence the towing load on the bus. But there's no doubt that the 'simple' charge-as-you-tow approach does begin to become complicated in practice.
The charge-by-cable approach probably is ultimately better, mainly because it gives you more control of the charging process. How exactly you do it - eg. DC from the alternator to the toad's batteries, or via AC from an inverter and a charger - probably depends mostly on how quickly you wish to charge the toad's batteries:-
The toad will, presumably, have an on-board charger which you will use to charge it's batteries over-night when at home. If you can wait a similar length of time for the toad batteries to recharge whilst on a trip in the bus, the same method can be used, either from shore power at a campsite, or plugged into the bus's inverter when driving. It's only if you need to charge the batteries much more quickly that you need to start thinking of higher-output systems - whether they be 96v conversions of your alternator, or a charge-as-you-tow system.
Jeremy
Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! Guys you are the best! :-* :-* :-*
Now just point me to the bank to rob and I will be ready to go in about a week!!! Otherwise, stay tuned because I am going to do this but it will take longer!!!
Forgive me, Teresa, but I'm having trouble understanding why you'd want to do this.
Are you hoping to save money, fuel, or the environment? Because I can assure you you will do none of these.
What you are proposing is complex, and will require many specialized modifications for which there is no standard support. As such, the cost of doing this will be many times greater than the cost of a conventional coach electrical system plus conventional toad.
As for fuel and the environment, burning diesel to make electricity to charge a battery to power a toad will use more fuel than just having a combustion engine in the toad. Even if you use, say, WVO to power the bus, you'd use less fuel overall by having a diesel toad with its own WVO system, with perhaps some pre-processing done on the bus.
In addition to more fuel being consumed overall, the environmental costs of the battery plant tend to significantly offset the minimal environmental savings of the electric drivetrain. Remember that even when charging from the grid, the power is coming from fossil fuels, principally coal, albeit on a more efficient scale than local generation by internal combustion.
In short, it's a lot of work, money, and likely frustration for very little or perhaps no benefit at all.
I must also inject a bit of reality here. By your own admission you know little about electricity, and yet this project requires engineering-level knowledge, far and above what is required to just install a house electrical system in a coach. There are perhaps half a dozen or so of us on this board that could do this from scratch, and you've already heard from many of us. While you might get answers to specific questions, and along the way pick up a great deal of knowledge yourself about the subject, it's not likely to be sufficient to build a complete, working, safe system.
To do this on your own by asking questions here also means you will get a system designed by committee. If you are intent on doing this, my own suggestion would be to hire a competent engineer to take it from beginning to end -- you are far more likely to get an end result that works and is safe.
One last caution about proceeding with a project like this. Once it's done, no one anywhere will be able to fix it except yourself. You will also likely have many specialized parts that are not readily available. You need to be prepared for the downtime that might be imposed by this. For example, lets say you succeed in finding or making a 96-volt alternator and somehow connect it to your engine; if that alternator breaks, you could be sidelined for months waiting for a replacement. Moreover, as a specialized one-off item, you will pay full price for any repair or replacement. By contrast, a 24-volt coach alternator is a commodity item, and can easily be sourced new, rebuilt, or used at a variety of price points and in a matter of a day or two.
If you decide to move forward with this, I wish you the best of luck, and I will even be happy to answer questions and lend a hand. But I want to make sure you go into this with eyes wide open. I know that, while I myself could design such a system, I wouldn't even try, because the cost/benefit equation simply does not pencil out.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Teresa -
Personally, I believe in the KISS principle (and that doesn't mean Gene Simmons & Co!)
VW TDI's make great toads, btw.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
You guys are no fun.
Did the "cost/benefit equation pencil out" when American went to the Moon? No. Was it still a worthwhile thing to do? Yes.
I cannot speak for Teresa's motivations, but mine would be simply be the challenge of taking-on very interesting project, and creating something unique. I'd have thought most bus-nuts could relate to that.
Jeremy
Hi Sean,
I find your "cost/benefit" comment interesting in the context of this bus conversion board. I doubt that any of us, with the possible exception of you full timers, that could make the cost/benefit equation pencil out unless we put an unrealistically high value on the benefit side of the equation. I did a bus conversion and built our house for the sense of accomplishment and the learning experience, not because it was practical. I think that is what most hobbies involve. I have no doubt that you have done some of those types of projects yourself without thought of the cost/benefit equation and have derived a good deal of personal satisfaction from them. I would guess that volunteer work would also fall into that category. I do note that you were only stating your perspective and not telling Teresa not to do the project.
Thanks, Sam MC8
Sean!! I knew you would jump in on this sooner or later ;D Welcome!!
Yes I know it will be complicated and I have already been sourcing electronic engineers who are familiar with both RV house systems and EVs to hire (possibly you would want the job?) to do the paper work. They are not easy to find. Usually they are adept at one or the other, but not both. All I want is schematics and shopping lists and answer of questions from time to time, I will be doing all the physical work myself.
The reason I want to do it is because I live within 10 miles of my work and can charge both at home and at work. This would serve not only as a toad but as a daily driver. Im thinking the economics of it would work out well for my applications.
The many batteries I need to buy for my bus turned rv would mostly be sitting and aging (because I was designing a system where I would not use a generator). This approach gives dual purpose to the batteries during their lifespan as well as saving me gas money. My thoughts are to be able to charge the batteries thru the onboard VW controller/charger with both AC current and DC. Of course the DC would only charge the batteries while I was towing the VW so it should cost no more diesel then towing any other toad. Additionally, there is the possibility of solar panels which I wont get into at this time. As for saving the environment, there are a lot of arguments both ways about that on the web and I am by no means an expert so I will stay out of that one as well.
In the future I believe that the price of lithium batteries will come down and be much more affordable and we will be seeing a lot more electric vehicles on the road. I believe fossil fuel is going out in my lifetime.
The reason my brother makes the biodiesel for me is because I have found WVO to be impossible to get in California so I cannot rely on that to power a daily driver for me.
Where I live, our power plants provide electricity through windmills so I dont use fossil fuel or nuclear waste to get the electricity to recharge anything.
About the 96volt alternator, I found one rebuilt on ebay yesterday for $999.00 ....... I really dont know, but Im even thinking that maybe I could use multiple 24 volt alternators mounted in my engine to power the toad batteries?
QuoteIf you decide to move forward with this, I wish you the best of luck, and I will even be happy to answer questions and lend a hand.
Thank you!!!
here is what I found on ebay that I was thinking could work and why I started this thread http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JACK-HEINTZ-500-AMP-30-36-48-96-VOLT-DC-EV-MOTOR-GEN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d2Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d5334160067435537878QQ_trksidZp3286Q2em7QQcategoryZ46093QQitemZ130432216153 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JACK-HEINTZ-500-AMP-30-36-48-96-VOLT-DC-EV-MOTOR-GEN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d2Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d5334160067435537878QQ_trksidZp3286Q2em7QQcategoryZ46093QQitemZ130432216153)
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 30, 2010, 11:42:13 AM
...
Of course the DC would only charge the batteries while I was towing the VW so it should cost no more diesel then towing any other toad.
...
The power to charge the batteries in the toad is not free, it has to come from somewhere. Your main engine will burn more fuel running your 96-volt alternator to charge the toad than it would to just tow. You haven't said how many watts are needed to charge, but figure that every 6kW costs you ten engine HP, give or take.
Quote
...
Where I live, our power plants provide electricity through windmills so I dont use fossil fuel or nuclear waste to get the electricity to recharge anything.
...
That's a pleasant thought, but it does not work that way.
Your wind-farm provider is connected to the grid. Like all grid-connected renewable plants, it operates at 100% of available production all the time (nuclear plants, too). Virtually all demand power in the US comes from coal-fired plants.
So when you are using, say, 10 kW of power it may very well be coming from wind. However, when you turn that 10 kW load off, the wind farm does not suddenly produce 10 kW less power; that 10 kW is merely sold to someone someplace else. When you turn your 10 kW load back on, that other person now needs to get the 10kW he was using from someplace, and that someplace is a coal-fired plant. It is an inescapable part of the calculus of North American grid power. EVERY electric car on the road ultimately owes its power to a coal-fired plant if it is plugged into the grid. That will remain true right up until the North American grid no longer uses coal plants to provide demand power. This is the dirty secret of zero-emission vehicles -- every one of them trades petroleum emissions at the point of use for coal emissions someplace else.
FWIW
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Well I cant cure the world's problems. The best I can do is try to make as little impact as possible as I pass thru this world and pass it on to the next generation.
QuoteThe power to charge the batteries in the toad is not free, it has to come from somewhere. Your main engine will burn more fuel running your 96-volt alternator to charge the toad than it would to just tow. You haven't said how many watts are needed to charge, but figure that every 6kW costs you ten engine HP, give or take.
I dont know how many watts I need. If the 96 volt alternator is not efficient enough then how about plugging the toad into a charger/pure sine wave inverter on the rv?
I did find this too which specialises in ev systems for VWs http://www.e-volks.com/about.html (http://www.e-volks.com/about.html)
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 30, 2010, 10:00:02 PM
Well I cant cure the world's problems. The best I can do is try to make as little impact as possible as I pass thru this world and pass it on to the next generation.
I applaud you for that. Again, I just want you to go into this with the facts, and you should be aware that the global resource impact of what you are proposing may, in fact, be greater than more traditional methods. It might be less, too, but it's nearly impossible to calculate.
If you charge the car with grid power at both ends, things are more clear-cut. Grid power is generated much more cleanly and efficiently than you can produce it, either with an alternator on your main engine or with a generator. It's also much less expensive, per kW. But your original question was not about using grid power, but rather using the bus to charge the car. Very different math between those two options, both from a cost perspective as well as an environmental one.
It's certainly an interesting project, if having an interesting project is the goal, as others have suggested. I had the impression you were thinking this is going to save fuel or money, and I think that is unlikely, just by doing a quick back-of-the-envelope. That is, of course, JMO, and I've been wrong before. You need to do the math for yourself to know if it will achieve your own objectives.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I do think it will save money and that is one of the reasons for doing this. I think that it would pencil out better then what I was planning before which was just to buy a HUGE bank of batteries and cover my roof with as many solar panels as possible in order to keep from using the generator. I only camp a few times a year, all those batteries would be sitting and aging while I wasnt camping. This way I can use the same amount of batteries (around a dozen or so 6volts) and have them serve double duty during their life span plus not spend money on gasoline for the toad aka my daily driver (not to mention I wont have to worry about oil changes, anti freeze or maintaining those types of systems)...... I dont understand how this could possibly not pencil out for me unless you were thinking I was only going to have a few batteries and a big generator on my rv with gas in my toad like most people because that was never what I wanted to do.
By doing this I am even starting to embrace my generator and not thinking about selling it anymore. I will have that stinky, noisey obnoxious thing in my toad.... when boondocking in the rv with the toad hooked up to it, the generator could be on and be in a GREAT soundbox! Additionally, if I am out sight seeing in a different town I am not familiar with and get lost or something and need an emergency charge to get back to camp THEN I will be VERY thankful I have the loud stinky obnoxious generator.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 30, 2010, 10:04:56 PM
I dont know how many watts I need. If the 96 volt alternator is not efficient enough then how about plugging the toad into a charger/pure sine wave inverter on the rv?
Actually, direct DC at the proper voltage, as you originally proposed, is the most efficient. But not free. As an example I can say that my own alternator uses about a quart of fuel per hour (over and above whatever is used to move the bus) to charge the batteries at a rate of about 5 kW. That's still way more efficient than running the generator to do it, though, and of course it's free when descending steep grades.
Knowing how many watts you will need is key to figuring out whether this is even do-able. For example, one of the car systems you linked to requires a 5kWH battery system for a range of, IIRC, 30 miles. A standard bus alternator can produce that much energy in just an hour, although in practice it takes longer than that to achieve a full charge. By contrast, a charger which could run on a standard household outlet would require nearly three hours to deliver that same amount of energy.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Thanks Sean for that post!! I really appreciate it!
In planning the ev what I need is actually probably minimal. The VW bus weighs about 3000 lbs empty and as I recall the recommended max weight is 5000 lbs. I dont know how much the gasoline engine and fuel tank weigh, so when they are removed it will weigh less. Myself, mom, children and dogs who will ride in it all together weigh about 500 - 600 lbs (the higher if hauling groceries as well). I would like to cruise mostly at 20-40mph but with occassional 50mph. Im within 10 miles of work and can charge up there or at home. I live and work on flat land in a valley. When traveling with the rv I will be in various terains though. I would like to be able to drive about 40-50 miles at average speed without needing a charge, and of course I dont want to run my batteries down more then 50%
Quote from: happycamperbrat on September 30, 2010, 10:32:56 PM
... I dont understand how this could possibly not pencil out for me ...
Well, having worked with fleets of electric vehicles, I have a feel for what they cost to run.
Now, if you have a free source of electricity someplace, such as your office is letting you plug in, or whatever, then things might be different, but here's some math:
Batteries: If you use conventional Lead-Acid technology, whether that's flooded or AGM (as opposed to more exotic technologies such as lithium), then you will be faced with the tradeoff of weight versus capacity, and will probably design the batteries to get you to your destination and back on about 50% DoD.
At 50% DoD, you can expect about 500 cycles from these battery technologies. (Significantly more than that for gel cells, which have some special requirements of their own.) If you drive the car "daily" for work, that means you will replace batteries about every two years. 5kWH of flooded batteries will cost you around $2,000. If that 5kWH gives the car a range of 30 miles, using the example earlier, then you'll get about 15,000 miles for your $2,000, or about 13.3 cents per mile.
Power: To charge half that 5kWH, you will actually need more like 4kWH of electricity. That's because some of the power is lost as heat in the process, and there are chemical losses in the batteries as well. I don't know what electricity costs where you are, but $0.12 per kWH is a good guess in North America, so that's another half dollar for your 30 miles, or another 1.6 cents per mile. So now we are up to 14.9 cents per mile, and that does not include any of the capital costs of the conversion.
The jury is out on longevity of electric power trains versus combustion engine power trains. So call that a wash.
All the other maintenance issues, such as tires, are also a wash, so you are talking about the costs of fuel and engine fluids for a gasser.
Cars that can get 25 mpg are a dime a dozen if you limit your speed to 40 mph, which is the top speed of the car in my example above. At $3 per gallon, that's just 12 cents per mile. The other fluids and filters would easily fit into the 2.9 cent delta between that and the cost per mile of electric. If you look at cars like the Geo Metro, you can get that number down to less than 8 cents per mile. And few cars can beat my 85mpg scooter, which costs just a few pennies per mile to operate, soup to nuts.
That's just one example. The actual math will be different depending on many factors, including your cost for electricity, sources of batteries, required range and speed, etc.. That's also just the math for electric cars versus gas; factoring in the complexity implied by your original system will also add to the costs.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Interesting! Thank you again! Another point is that (at least right now) I am not even using a toad. Pulling a toad alone will add to the fuel usage of the bus. Your set up is pretty dang good! I only wish I could do like you and your wife, but my son and mom cant hardly walk yet alone ride a motorcycle and my daughter has PDD and will never learn to drive. I am the only physically (and mentally ::) lol) capable person in my bunch. I have considered a motorcycle with a side car but I would not be able to carry a wheelchair, walker or crutches. Which this is another reason I want to avoid a generator is my daughter is extremely sensitive to sound because of her disability.
Sean, I wonder what the actual cost pencils out to with letting the batteries just sit during most of the year instead of actually using them? Additionally I wonder what the cost factors would be and how long it would take to recoup the invest in solar panels? I have seen where people have trippled up on solar panels and they were stacked like pancakes 3 deep. When they park the panels are unfolded which makes sort of a like a covered parking spot for a car or for an rv it would be sort of like an awning.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on October 01, 2010, 12:11:53 AM
Sean, I wonder what the actual cost pencils out to with letting the batteries just sit during most of the year instead of actually using them?
Batteries deteriorate over time even without being cycled. A lot will depend on your maintenance regimen.
Quote
Additionally I wonder what the cost factors would be and how long it would take to recoup the invest in solar panels?
I wrote a column on this in the magazine a couple months back. The answer is usually "never" in an RV. In a fixed dwelling with lots of room for solar, panels take a minimum of ten years and usually more like 20 years to "break even." In an RV, solar is principally useful for extending quiet boondocking time, camping in places where generators are prohibited, or keeping the batteries healthy while the rig is being stored. Or, I suppose, a medical condition that precludes generator use.
The effectiveness of solar goes up if you spend a lot of time in places with high insolation, such as where you are now. But this is offset by the fact that energy demand (for refrigeration) is also higher in those places. You can often get more benefit by parking in the shade in such places then parking in the sun with a rooftop full of panels.
Remember, too, that solar energy is never "free" even after panels break even in 10-20 years. That's because parts of the system are expendable items, including the panels themselves. In an off-grid application you can expect to spend $4-$5,000 every four to five years on batteries -- figure $1,000 per year -- and the panels themselves have a lifespan of only about 20 years, at an average cost of $2 per nameplate watt. When you do the math, the cost per kWH of self-generated solar power is very close to the cost of grid power, and may even be higher in places where grid power is cheap.
As the cost of photovoltaic panels comes down and efficiency goes up, the math will, of course, change. But if you look at the trends over the last few decades, absent a "eureka" breakthrough, those graphs won't cross during the time most of us own our rigs.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
QuoteAs the cost of photovoltaic panels comes down and efficiency goes up, the math will, of course, change.
Im thinking that fuel cells will also come down in price in the near future. The batteries are the weekest link right now in a set up for an rv or an ev.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on October 01, 2010, 08:03:59 AM
QuoteAs the cost of photovoltaic panels comes down and efficiency goes up, the math will, of course, change.
Im thinking that fuel cells will also come down in price in the near future. The batteries are the weekest link right now in a set up for an rv or an ev.
As an ex- fuel cell engineer, let me give you a little insight on that. Yes, that actual basic cell membrane and plate technology (as in power obtained per area/size) is pretty darn good, but two things prevent wide spread commercial application: system infrastructure and heat dissipation.
You may be able to argue that infrastructure is a chicken and egg game, and that eventually Hydro-Mobil will be everywhere. Fine, but how are we going to make enough hydrogen? There're talks of nuclear technology in the future that can directly split a water molecule into H2 and oxygen, but till then, it's just a talk.
The other thing - heat output. A fuel cell will likely be never used in a bus/coach or truck. Fuel cells puts out tremendous amounts of heat; if you think cooling an 8v92 is difficult, wait till you see even a basic 250hp city bus cooling requirement for fuel cell. For a 450hp, 54,000 GVW coach, you're looking at making the entire roof out of a radiator. And this is not something that will get better with technology, no. A fuel cell's efficiency is a thermodynamic hard limit that can't be broken.
So, I'd place my bet on other fancy things like nanotube batteries before fuel cells. Right now, their only use in RVing is if Bill Gates happens to be a busnut, and is looking for a couple $25000 quiet fuelcell generators to replace his Honda. ;)
Im sure you guys can agree with the statement "gasoline and diesel fuel will up in price in the future" and the reason is that we are either running out and/or we refuse to look and drill for more (depending on which side of the argument you want to argue)
Time to invest in a ranch and raise about 425 horses ;D
435 horses or people pedal powered buses ;D
According to this article, this electric bus outperforms other buses by 400% http://alternative-car-fuels.co.uk/electric-bus-from-proterra-with-400-better-performance-than-commuter-buses-today/#more-82 (http://alternative-car-fuels.co.uk/electric-bus-from-proterra-with-400-better-performance-than-commuter-buses-today/#more-82) IMHO this and the emphisis of living green and all the new technology available now in solar power and wind generators and the gas crunch is the kind of stuff that is going to make batteries more efficient and more affordable as well as electric vehicles more practicle and affordable.
QuoteElectric Bus from Proterra with 400% better Performance than Commuter Buses Today
A performance test of the Proterra electric bus was conducted recently by the Pennsylvania Transportation Institute. During the three runs done, the people mover had the best result of 29.23 MPGe and the worst at 17.55 MPGe.
The FCBE 35 from Proterra is powered by the UQM PowerPhase 150 engine. The engine produces a maximum power of 201 horsepower and continuous power rating of 134 hp. Other major features of the vehicle include regenerative braking, voltage and speed control, and optimal four quadrant performance.
The test simulated the duty cycle of the transport bus which traversed the make shift business district and the major transportation arteries. On the central business district phase, the diesel equivalency of the electric bus was marked at 21.35 mpg. The arterial phase returned a reading of 17.55 mpg while the commuter phase had a remarkable 29.23 mpg.
Each stage of the test simulated a central business district run with 7 stops on average per mile cruising on a top speed of 20 mph. The commuter phase had 1 stop with a top speed of 40 mph.
The parameters electric bus was tested on a 38 seating capacity load amounting to a gross weight of 36680. The fuel economy test was conducted with the air conditioners of the bus turned off. Aircon use may reduce fuel mileage by as much as 30 percent.
The results of the test reveal that the fuel efficiency of the Proterra's FCBE 35 outshines the commuter buses today by as much as 400%.
Just did a quick google on that Proterra bus. It is battery-powered (no fuel cell) according to the video below, so to be measuring it's performance in MPG 'diesel equivalency' seems a recipe for making the numbers say whatever you want them to say. Also the video includes the phrase 'average 15mph', which is surely very significant.
Not knocking it....but not swallowing everything I read either.
Jeremy
Proterra video: Too Much! The Electric Bus! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcdRNe7BkS8#ws)
I dont want to poo poo anything, but ive seen these discussions before, and I have studied some of the aspects and arguments.
One of the arguments is that wind electric is clean energy. yes,I suppose if they could actually shut down a coal power plant while wind generation is online, you could say that. But its not happening. Coal power is steam power. It can take days to bring a coal plant up to heat. Once its spinning up, it can take more days to bring the power online. They cant simply throw a switch and dump a couple gigawatts onto the grid. Some may recall the northeast blackout a few years ago. Some areas were without power for over two weeks, and this was the reason.
Holland spent $billions developing a wind generation grid, lining their coast with wind mills, but the reality was that they could not shut down their conventional power plants, they had to remain on standby. Last I heard they were completely scraping the wind program. The only reason the US is pushing wind generation, is, IMHO, political. It has nothing to do at all with saving fossil fuels or protecting the environment. If people truly wanted to protect the environment, we would have much more nuclear power plants and we would be riding bicycles. We would not be leaving strings of multistory buildings lit up all night from coast to coast with computers left on and with no one there.
The other argument is oil, and how we will run out. We will not run out. Not in my lifetime, yours, or anyones grandchilds, probably not in any forseeable future. Why? Because it is not fossil fuel. Beyond our planet, some of our sister planets and their moons, have vast oceans of liquid methane. There is now strong belief withing certain circles, that our planet was once equally covered with liquid methane, and that some process broke it down into more and more complex hydrocarbons, and it sank iinto the depths of the earth. Oil companies are today, drilling down past 15 miles, twice as deep as the worlds oceans, and finding vast reserves of oil. If oil is lighter and floats, and if oil were created from fossil process, why is it under everything else all over the world?
If you truly believe in protecting the environment, I believe this is a good read on wind generation
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html (http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html)
I guess we can suck the life blood out of the politicians and use that for energy to run our homes and vehicles.
If you google electric bus, there are several places trying them out all across the world right now. Hopefully they will create a demand for better and more efficient batteries, technology, etc. that's all I'm saying.
One of my brothers is a big wig at the place that owns a solar plant in Mojave Desert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert) they actually produce steam to help the windmills turn and work with the Tehachapi Windmills which were in the article artvonne posted. As far as I know, that is the way the windmills there are supplemented when the wind doesn't blow (but I will ask him next time I see him). I understand not everyone lives on the surface of the sun like we do, but there are alternatives. The core of the Earth is very hot and digging down could release that heat to be used for steam; I think that might be a better alternative then messing with another planet.
I would say that we are going back to the horse and carriage days, but I'm vegan so using animals like that is against my grain. Peddle Power for me and wheelchairs for my family!
By co-incidence my Dad has just sent me a link to the website below, which apparently shows a real-time measure of load on the UK electricity grid - I'm just posting it here as it relates to what Sean was saying earlier about how power stations have to continuously adjust their output, to match both demand from users and, increasingly, the inevitable fluctuations that come from the 'renewable' element in the National power supply.
See: http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm (http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm)
The gauge is mostly stable, but I noticed a few minutes ago that it dropped markedly and stayed around the 49.8 mark for three or four minutes, before coming back up. And that co-incided with the clock going past 8.30pm - no doubt some Saturday night reality-TV program had a break, and everyone went to make a cup of coffee.
Talking about renewable power - certainly wind power is expensive and unreliable, but I've not previously heard any suggestion that the Dutch are abandoning their wind-generation policies. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they're getting behind on their maintenance schedules at the moment, because Norfolk (on the East coast of Britain) seems to be full of Dutch and Scandinavian wind turbine engineers just now. There are huge fields of wind-turbines being built a few miles off the coast there at the moment, where the water is shallow and the winds are steady. I was in Norfolk a few weeks ago and was very impressed by both the ambition and engineering of the construction work that was going on.
Jeremy
Quote from: happycamperbrat on October 01, 2010, 10:59:37 PM
435 horses or people pedal powered buses ;D
Thought about that one, but while it may work great for transits or a Greyhound, I'd feel really bad for the elderly couple that happens to own a 45' Prevost...
In all seriousness, I think we can all agree that at this point in time, there simply isn't a better solution to internal combustion. For the foreseeable future, we have to work on optimizing the IC drivetrain to make it moe efficient.
My personal faith is in electrical transmission systems, like diesel locomotives. AC-AC transmission systems have shown to achieve efficiency levels of 93%, which is higher than any regular transmission, whether clutched or torque converter based. On top of that, an IC engine becomes a LOT more efficient, and cleaner, when designed to operate around a single power level / rpm. So a series hybrid system, with a good sized battery, will dramatically increase mpg, especially in city / hilly terrain.
It was the same deal with fuel cells - if we could design them for a single operating point, we would've solved 75% of the problems. The transient process is what killed the design, from the actual cells to the supporting systems such as compressors. I tried really hard to convince management of using a bigger battery bank to buffer out the load variations. Of ocurse, being a lowly engineer, they told me to go back to my office since I know nothing about businees and cost... ;)