Of all the 35' (single rear axle) buses out there, which ones are the best ones to consider? So far I've looked at a GM 4104 that's in real nice shape, however it's a little outside my price range (but probably less than doing a ground up conversion myself). I was considering looking at a local late '50's Western Flyer Canuck, but looks like it may have sold already. I'm also considering looking for an MCI MC5 or a Western Flyer Canuck 500 or 600. Are there any pros/cons of the various makes? Weight, parts availability, height, etc? I'm new to this whole bus thing. I'm sure many of you have a lot of knowledge on some of these.
Look outside to Eagles and Prevost they also had 35 footers
good luck
There are also 35' RTS's. There was a very nice one for sale recently. Someone on the board may know of it and if it is still available.
I think that I might need to keep my search to mostly buses available in Canada. I still have to check on the all the regs to importing converted buses from the US... I did a quick check, and any bus build prior to 1971 looks fairly simple to import, and newer Prevost and MCI would be simple as well (but more work and fees). However, all RTS buses are inadmissible, so I can't consider those because I'm not allowed (but they do look cool!). But I'm assuming those are pure bus regs. I can't find anything on RV conversions, and if brought in as an RV, these don't fall into any of the allowed brands for RV's and might be not allowed either.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I looked into importing busses years ago and trying to get a normal across bus is very hard, from what I understand it is better to make sure to do what is necessary in the US to make it an RV and get it transferred as once it is an RV rules don't apply.
http://www.riv.ca/RIVExemptions.aspx (http://www.riv.ca/RIVExemptions.aspx)
Well I actually just called them and they say that putting plumbing in adding seats is considered modifying the vehicle outside of factory parameters but you can check with Transport Canada on clarifications. Anyway I am going to stop researching or I will end up with a bus from down there lol. Hope that helps.
Dwayne
So, between older GM, MCI, Western Flyer, Eagle and Prevost, what's the pros and cons of each for the 35' models? Seems the MCI and Western Flyers are a little more common to find here in Canada, but most all the older ones I've found need serious upgrades on the inside (older badly done RV conversions). Another thing is cost. Local conversions range from $10,000 for a generally nasty looking 60's bus to $40,000 for a well done older conversion on a 50's bus that needs nothing and is ready to go as-is.
OD,
Not quite sure what is driving your desire for a 35'er, but I purchased a '79 MCI 5C and I can not be happier. My criteria was a 35'er due to summer local traffic & egress to my home from storage location. It also made easier for indoor storage.
Single axle no tag + its weight.
I wanted a manufacturer who was still in business. Later, I now do not think this has much weight in the decision.
For me & my lovely wife 35' is quite enough length/space.
Flat floor from front to back, driver on same plane (level) with passengers. Not a hired driver feeling...
I had never driven a bus before, I find that I probably would be less apt to try tight driveways, etc with a 40' or 45'. Those whom do so, God Bless you.
Less length, less weight more fuel efficiency, That Is what I thought, but not so now. I think driveline, trans, rear ratio is more important.
I did purchase a completed conversion, and I still feel I could not do better on price if I did the work. Which I neither have the time nor all the skills involved. Again, my praise to those who do.
Good Luck,
Gary
Gary,
What you list are pretty much the reasons I have for looking for a 35' unit. I live in town, so getting it to my house would be an issue if it was any longer. Ease of storage, and less height are other benefits that I see. They also seem to have plenty of room if the layout is well done.
Thanks,
Rej
And if you like to camp at state parks, you can almost always get a spot.
There are very limited sites for 40' and above at older parks.
I book sites that say 35', even though I am 40'.
But I due a dry run through the park and make notes in the Jeep first.
Cliff
The 35ft'rs are GMC 4104 with 6-71 and 4spd, 4106 with 8V-71 and 4spd, 4107 and 4109 (which are raised flat floors with giant under storage) with 8V-71 with 4spd or V730 Allisons. MCI5 with either 6V-71 or 8V-71 T drive. Then there are the Crown and Gillig flat nose school buses with mostly layed down 6-71's. These are all 96" wide
The RTS transit are available in either 96 or 102 wide in the 35ft size. I like 102 wide (I have a AMGeneral 10240B) transit. The transits are in general built stronger and turn sharper then highway buses, but are harder to convert. I have 22" of height below my floor, which is enough for most all that I carry. I believe Flxible and MCI also made 35 transits.
The only 102" wide 35ft highway bus I know of is the MCI F3500 which is a Mex made bus, but decently made with a Cummins ISC 330hp engine. Good Luck, TomC
Eagle had a 35 foot model 15 -102 in wide highway coach but it would be too new to import into Canada they were 1996 models they were nice coaches.
I believe the 10s models are too new also they were made in the 80's, it would have to be a model 12- 35 footer to import into Canada they were made in the 70's
good luck
The 4107 we're selling is a 35' one, and those have huge bays, which is great. Boy, we can't fit HALF of the stuff into this Prevost! We really liked the 4107, which is a pretty lightweight bus, but of course, all we've used is a 40' MCI9, the 35' GMC4107 & the 40' Prevost, so we're probably not a great judge of rigs.
Christy Hicks
OD has to be careful about buying a non Canadian bus I think it has to be pre 1972 to import
good luck
OD;
We have a MC5C (Saudi) 35'. What we notice is we are able to get into smaller lots and spots and fuel probably goes further, but not a lot because it has the smaller motor 6V 71 w Auto. Don't have the tag which is a good thing.
Less tires is also good. But the minus side is 1 less bay for storage but actually it is only a half bay because of extra axle but still more storage on the 40's. Inside when I was building from the back to the front, I kept feeling like I was running out of room and kept telling my wife that it sure would be nice to have that extra 5 feet for whatever.
You learn to live with it after a while and you don't really need that extra. It would just hold more stuff that you don't really need unless it is product to sell etc. An 8V 71 TA or even 92 would be nice, but you see the country either way just a little slower.
As far as driving it or a 40'er or even a 45, you get used to them fairly fast, just like you do a car or new truck, each have their quirks and downfalls and fun stuff but you work with them and it just becomes as my wife always say, " Its nothing but a thing". Pick one and make sure it is mechanically sound or a least close and be prepared to find and fix things along the way and enjoy the journey.
Dave
Quite happy with my 84 BlueBird Wanderlodge and imported to boot!
I bought a 1980 35' MCI MC-5C because it was available nearby for the price I wanted to pay, but the key factor was parking and manuevering. later I added parts availability and general MCI'ness as I learned more. My bus is a 1980 and was imported into Canada by a professional importer in 2002. He is still around, although older, in the Simcoe Ontario region. It was converted to Canadian specs, mostly hub meter and speedometer in kilometers, as a seated completely stock bus, and has a Canadian Certification Label. It was originally one of the Navajo Nation buses in Arizona. A local bus company, Cherrey bus lines, did the conversion and fixed all the little things at the same time. In today's money about $10K was spent on suspension and brake parts, steering tie bars and drag links, etc.
So my thought is you can import a bus if it is seated and stock, and use an import specialist. If you PM me I will get you his name when I get home from Nova Scotia late next week. I think the prices for fully converted buses in Canada is a fair bit higher than in the US due to rarity, they are around though. And I don't believe you can import a converted bus due to RIVA regs unless it is a factory new conversion by a registered manufacturer. So you are kind of stuck to buying what's in Canada already, or importing a stock seated bus. I think, at least!
Cheers, Brian
It's a shame that you can't consider importing a bus from outside North America - there's a vast selection of 'short' buses to choose from in Europe, where every manufacturer offers buses in 8m, 10m, 12m and 14m lengths. I have a short Plaxton myself (see photo on the left), and I just looked at the website of a local bus dealer who have the very short Neoplan shown below for sale (this will be 8m long - less than 30 feet).
This Neoplan is quite expensive (£10k), but that is probably over-priced. My bus is only 5 years older (1987) and cost just £2.5k, which is less than it appears you would pay for something that may be 30 or 40 years old in the States. I assume that the value of old buses here depreciates so quickly because there are so many different manufacturers, all constantly bring out new models which obsoletes the old ones. It does mean that you can get a lot of bus for your money when buying second-hand though - but no doubt the cost of importing one to Canada would be many times the cost of the bus itself.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usedcoachsales.co.uk%2Fneoplanj11%2F2.jpg&hash=11ddc2cb5687339da8d8b9304e89be195b85e555)
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on September 23, 2010, 05:47:19 AM
It's a shame that you can't consider importing a bus from outside North America - there's a vast selection of 'short' buses to choose from in Europe, where every manufacturer offers buses in 8m, 10m, 12m and 14m lengths....
Another issue over and above the shipping cost for something like that (IF its even allowed) would be parts availability.
Quote from: bevans6 on September 23, 2010, 03:53:42 AM
... So my thought is you can import a bus if it is seated and stock, and use an import specialist....
The gentleman selling his 4104 locally that I went to see said he bought it as a converted bus, and imported it as such. However, reading up a little last night, anything built prior to 1971 won't need to meet any of the strict import guidelines. Basically, if it's made before 1971, it doesn't have to be be on the list of allowable vehicles. It just needs a valid title and insurance and bill of sale, and obviously must meet basic safety regulations in order to have it registered when you bring it home. 1971 and newer units I'd be stuck to an un-modified seated bus, or one that's converted by a manufacturer listed on the list (which isn't many and I think limits to more recent builds).
In any case, the "list" says no RTS busses allowed for importation at all... unless they're one of the recent ones less than about 10 years old from a certain manufacturer (I can't remember, but something that new is bound to be past what I can afford).
Anyhow, the local 4104 I looked at is solid, and mechanically sound, currently being used. rebuilt 671 (looks like it leaks oil/fuel a bit), original 4-speed manual. 2 year old radial tires and aluminum rims all around, brakes converted to modern style spring brakes, body is straight and solid. No air conditioning. older insides that would need upgrading at some point, but usable as-is, needs the rubberized paint/coating scraped off the roof because its cracking and flaking, and minor fixes done here and there. What's a reasonable price for one of these things?
Now you are asking a HARD question! What's it worth? My feeling is that the market is such that it is literally worth what you are prepared to pay and what the seller is prepared to take. In other words, pure market pricing - he has something you want and you have something he wants. Who wants which the most? The value of it is another thing - it's undoubtedly valued at more than you will pay or he will get, which makes the pricing very hard. He may feel insulted, and you may feel he is holding out for more than it's worth...
It would cost around $10K to get a 671 rebuilt by a pro shop, it would cost a couple of grand to have that same shop convert to spring brakes ( obviously less if done by the owner or a couple of buddies), a basic conversion is worth $10K, a nice conversion is worth double that, and a good conversion is worth the sky... 6 new radial tires and decent/new Alcoa's are worth $3500 to $4000...
all numbers in Canadian, in case you all think I am expensive... :) (15% tax pays for our free stuff from the Gubbmint...)
Brian
Quote from: Overdrive on September 23, 2010, 11:27:48 AM
Another issue over and above the shipping cost for something like that (IF its even allowed) would be parts availability.
Yes, that is what everyone immediately says whenever something other than a MCI/Eagle/GMC is mentioned. I do rather think it's a red-herring though when you consider that you can get parts shipped from Europe in the same time that it takes to get something sent across America. I have several American vehicles (cars and a van), and often do the reverse with no concerns or problems. I'm not trying to ignore the fact that cost and inconvenience are big issues, and there would undoubtably be other difficulties as well when driving about Canada in some weird foreign bus - but just think of the up-side - would you rather have a tug boat or a spaceship?
Jeremy
PS. Incidentally...I've never seen an American bus in the UK myself, but have occasionally come across references to them. Some time ago Pinewood studios had a 4104 for sale on UK Ebay, which had been used in some 'American' movie that was being filmed there. And just yesterday I was looking at the website of this company, who apparently refurbished an Eagle for promotional work in the UK:
http://www.southeastcoachworks.co.uk/clients.php/previous_buses/scottish_courage_miller_bus/index.htm (http://www.southeastcoachworks.co.uk/clients.php/previous_buses/scottish_courage_miller_bus/index.htm)
Quote from: bevans6 on September 23, 2010, 11:56:58 AM
...
It would cost around $10K to get a 671 rebuilt by a pro shop, it would cost a couple of grand to have that same shop convert to spring brakes ( obviously less if done by the owner or a couple of buddies), a basic conversion is worth $10K, a nice conversion is worth double that, and a good conversion is worth the sky... 6 new radial tires and decent/new Alcoa's are worth $3500 to $4000...
...
So, based on this, $26,000 plus the bus shell... which would put it in the mid 30's to build one, which is pretty much asking. I did miss out on a local Western Flyer that was really nice. I don't know if it sold, but the add disappeared before I decided I should print it and call, it was a nice conversion with raised roof. Asking was mid-30's. Based on the above, I'd say it was probably close to double asking to build.
Prevost made perhaps 30 35 foot buses for conversion purposes in the late 70's, early 80's perhaps. Not sure of the exact number or years, but my 35 footer is a Liberty Conversion and was built in 1979. I paid 35k for it 6 months ago with 119,000 miles on the clock. Not sure if it was a good deal or not, but it was a fair price for me.
chuckd
I bought a running converted 4104 in the states, for $2K. Importation to Canada was easy...some duty fees, and a safety to register it in Quebec. It had 'lectric problems but the motor and brakes were solid. Put in spring brakes myself, maybe $200 in parts and 16 hrs labour...could do it in 8 hrs now. Definetly better deals in the US , only problem is going to see and buy a bus coasts $$$ and bringing it home can be time and $ consuming as well, so must be figured into the equations.
In hindsight for me a decent converted 4104 with all systems operational, decent tires, and usable conversion, already safetied for the province you are in would be worth 10K. It has amazed me how much time (=$) I have put into fixing the little things....(wipers....8 hrs of fiddling...but they work now) etc etc...