I am starting this thread rather than continue to tag comments onto BG6's farewell post. Further, this is really a question since I do not claim to have all the facts needed to know.
Since larger vehicles are capable of doing larger damage, it is arguable that the drivers should have superior training and licensing than for mere cars. One could also say that the vehicles themselves should be subjected to greater scrutiny. However, this may come down to a theoretic problem rather than a real one. Does anyone know any real numbers regarding accidents with RV's--specifically those that were caused by poor maintenance and driver ability? My guess would be that the insurance industry has "done the numbers" and our relatively good rates would imply that the real safety record is not bad at all. I do admit that I was less than competent when I first started driving the bus (actually, I still am), but I was probably better at it than I was at driving a car when I first got my license for that.
To be honest I would rather get run over by a bus than have another government agency tell me what to do. I might go so far as saying I would like them to back up and run over me again before I pay that government agency a high fee only to have them waste it jus like the rest of my tax dollars. So just incase we were kind if voting my vote is absolutely no DOT.
As has been pointed out previously D.O.T isn't the be all and end all of everything. It can only be as good as the mechanics from a mechanical safety view. At a drivers safety view it's again only as a safe as the man at the moment. Anyone who has flown a plane or spent time in the aviation community can testify that plenty of very safe pilots with as much training as one can have still crash and die. I lost a few friends that way. Sometimes stuff just happens. Pilot error quite often and sometimes mechanical but it happens and more laws and government just won't really change that.
I've seen too many jury rigged cars which far exceed us on the roads in numbers. One of them is quite capable of causing as much damage as us!
I just don't hear that much about us (buses and even MH's) having that many troubles. That's not to say that it doesn't happen but the elephant lumbering down the path may not be as much of a danger as the scurrying little critters that buzz around.
I don't have the numbers but my guess is that low insurance premiums are more a reflection of miles driven than they are indicative of risk of incident. I've listened to the arguments against DOT involvement in the RV industry and it seems to me that they could just as easily be made for commercial trucks. Professional drivers with professional maintenance shouldn't need any stinkin' government interference in their business. Somebody has already suggested that the RV industry has a very effective lobby and that may be true. I still think that collectively we are one bad incident away from a lot more regulation.
As a "commercial" driver myself, I'd say there's nothing magical about being commercial. A driver's ability is still largely up to the individual himself/herself, then a "class A" stamped on the liscense. There's many commercial drivers, in DOT compliant vehicles, that shouldn't be on the road. Likewise, there're non-commercial liscensed drivers that'll give most trucker a run for their money. Most commercial bus drivers today can't even budge a classic, non power steering, non synchro manual bus.
Contrarary to popular belief, getting a commercial liscense doesn't involve rigorous training such as backing up a B-train up a 25% grade with cliffs on either side, or thresthold braking a rig with trailer swinging sideways. In BC Canada, a Class 1 license simply require you to drive a rig around the city, merge on and off the hwy, and back up 20 feet in a straight line. And a stupid 45 minutes "pretrip" that 99.9% of drivers won't do (to that extent). In no way would this license make a crappy driver suddenly very competent.
Just what we need another excuse for letting some burocrats protect us from ourselves.
Hold on to your wallet.
Have you noticed all the raddy commercial equip running down the roads currently? All the bull currently in law really remidies that hu.
Are you aware that, for example, it is leagle to run an air brake vehicle that is loosing just short of 1 pound of air per miniute? That is insane but is their guidline.
No, no thank you not even in my worst nightmare.
There is nothing they can do for me better than I and I also have complete confidence in my neighbor
If you believe that it willhelp read their publications and follow thier rules. Why do you need legeslation to get there just do it if you think it is prudent
I apoligize in advance for my tone but it is what it is
Short answer NO!!!!!
is there not a overseeing body for manufacturing a new RV? I've seen a lot of wrong weight capacity tires on new RVs the industry should be self regulating..to be clear the DOT is not the answer.I do agree with all here!!!!Guess that why I drive a Bus or two Bob
I think all RV manufacturers belong to RVIA (RV Industry Assoc.) The RVIA sets standards which members are supposed to follow. Jack
There are too damn many cops and DOT , (Make that read 'Revenue Enhancement Agents for the State) now, if they had to inspect RV's they would simply hire another few hundred thousand!
Read the OT post about tickets for some good numbers.
I don't think there is any need to have converted buses and RV's comply with the DOT inspection routines for highway coaches or school buses. That would require an under-chassis inspection every 30 days, signed off by a licensed technician, and would obviously kill the industry. I equally don't think there is any justification that our converted buses and RV's should not be able to pass the inspection at any time, and as I said earlier my clear understanding is that we are already obliged to be able to submit to a roadside inspection station at any time, and pass.
Driver licensing is another question. I don't think that having a commercial license is any miracle working guarantee of competency, I've had one since I was 19 or 20, and I wasn't particularly a rocket scientist back then... But I also have some time for the idea that if you are driving a vehicle over a certain weight, equipped with commercial type brakes and systems, that you should be able to demonstrate that you understand them and have a certain competency at handling them. Getting the appropriate license means, at the very least, that someone checked you out and thought that you were at least minimally competent at some point in time. I mean, I have literally met people driving a 45 foot diesel pusher with a regular license who knew full well they were not licensed and so driving illegally, and who didn't know how to check the tire pressure on their inner dual tire. Had never personally done it. I would love to have them have to take a class or two and pass the tests!
To a certain extent it's all about the other guy. I know that I am perfect, it's the rest of the people out there that scare me! (tongue in cheek, sarcasm, and by "I" I of course include all converted bus owners and drivers... ;) )
Brian
Quote from: bobofthenorth on September 04, 2010, 10:35:10 PM
I still think that collectively we are one bad incident away from a lot more regulation.
Honestly, that is how many humans think today. The first incident that happens and a bunch of moms run out screaming for more laws. Only now its men doing it, running around flailing their arms above their head with tears in their eyes, calling for more laws, more laws, more laws. The idea that more laws and more regulation will make everything safer for everyone else is a disease that is infecting our society. Its effecting our children so bad they are either becoming reclusive, or dangerous, they have no good solid compass,.
There will always be accidents, and people are always going to get killed from them. If we cant accept that, collectively, we will soon regulate ourselves out of existence. But your right, with our rabid news media one good accident could bring national attention to this awful deadly mess, I mean, every day you turn around these these big Bus campers are killing and maiming, there has to be a law.
Quote from: bevans6 on September 05, 2010, 06:23:33 AM
I don't think there is any need to have converted buses and RV's comply with the DOT inspection routines for highway coaches or school buses. That would require an under-chassis inspection every 30 days, signed off by a licensed technician, and would obviously kill the industry. I equally don't think there is any justification that our converted buses and RV's should not be able to pass the inspection at any time, and as I said earlier my clear understanding is that we are already obliged to be able to submit to a roadside inspection station at any time, and pass.
Is the 30 day inspection a Canadian thing only? I don't remember my buddy who was an owner operator in the USA doing anything like that.
No,
I'd rather spend the extra dollars required to support an increased bureaucracy on keeping my bus safe.
Considering how low my RV insurance is compared to my auto insurance, actuarially speaking this form of driving must be some of the safest on the road. However, we are similar to airplanes, when we have a wreck it tends to get posted in a much broader media spectrum. I guess size matters ::)
David
I have very mixed emotions about this subject.
I would estimate that the majority of bus owners are pretty tuned into the safety systems on our buses. Certainly this and other boards help educate folks. I am concerned about the minority that don't have a clue, but that is probably less of a factor than the general public.
As far as vehicles, the typical modern RV will probably be off the road by the time the safety systems need major maintenance.
Obviously not the case with our buses. I am concerned about folks who buy "church buses" and feel comfortable that they must be safe (church buses is just an example). Some folks buy a bus that has been sitting for years and drive off with 20 year old tires - perhaps not even checking tire pressure. My guess is that these folks are just not aware of what they are doing. DOT inspections will probably not help - I don't have a clue what would prevent these situations.
What I am concerned about it the fact that Joe public who has only driven a VW Rabbit can plunk down a ton of money and drive off in a 50K pound 45 foot motorhome without a clue.
The thing that CDL brings to the picture is mandatory medical tests. Again, I am concerned that there are folks with medical problems who should not be driving, or are past the point where they are capable of driving. I just had to take mine, and I was amazed at how demanding the medical requirements are. My blood pressure is not all that high, but my doctor pointed out that I was close to the limit. If, somehow DOT medical requirements were mandated, I think our driving ranks might be reduced. Having said that, I think there are lots of "doctors" out there who hand out medicals willy nilly. Look at some of the truck drivers who are obese – they could not possibly meet the blood pressure requirements.
I am not advocating government involvement. Just trying to give a bit of a balanced picture here.
I was at a Bus Conversion Rally in Laughlin many years ago and a fellow presented a seminar on this very subject (for those of you there, he had the old Madden Cruiser). His thesis was that we should not be governed by government regulations, but he felt, like this thread, that we were only a crash or two away from mandated regulation. He was suggesting that we develop our own regulations that would somehow govern our hobby. I can't remember if he got to the point of how that would be implemented. Probably not, as the crowd became increasingly agitated (to the point of being obnoxious). They basically ran him off before he got to fully discuss his point.
Self governing does not work. The RVIA organization is a joke. It is written and administered by the folks making that product. As someone mentioned, several models of coaches have overloaded front axle weights before they leave the factory. Some have had recalls where they upgraded to 16K front ends and special tires. Others have just ignored the issue.
Sorry about the rambling. I don't have an answer, but that does not keep me from feeling very uneasy about the whole situation.
Jim
There are too many laws now, it's like the 10 commandments, I just finished them off by coveting my neighbors garden tractor and libby tells me there are actually 600 more, I don't know what to do anymore, I only have so many hours in a day, now if we have more laws, how will I live long enough to break them all. ;D
Belfert, I have no idea about the 30 day under chassis inspection anywhere other than here, where I researched the rules that apply to me (this one doesn't, btw). If you think about it, every other commercial vehicle on the road that uses air brakes needs to have a daily inspection where the driver signs a legal document attesting to the fact that he personally inspected the brake push-rod extension of all of the cans and examined the under carriage for loose, chafing hoses and all of that. If he did it or not I have no comment, he signed a legal document saying that he did. It's virtually impossible to do the same thing on a highway coach. The only way I have to examine my rear brakes is to take the wheels off, not having a pit. So operators of highway coaches need to have their brake push-rod extension measured and perhaps adjusted, and have the rest of the stuff a driver can't really see or check underneath every 30 days or 12,000 Km. Note that any qualified person holding the appropriate certificate can perform the inspection, so your buddy no doubt had a tech on site who did this routinely. I find it highly doubtful that any commercial highway coach operator would let a bus run for a month without checking it out. It probably got checked out every couple of days. Which brings up a good point - a "DOT Inspection" can be done by the operator of the vehicle or anyone else as long as they are qualified and certified to do so, it doesn't have to be some government agency. I have no idea about the rules for carrying copies of the inspection reports other than here, either.
here is the relevant bits and a copy of the inspection requirement. I do the equivalent about twice a year, or every 6,000 km the way I use my bus... Note: Any of the defects listed in the Schedule 4 inspection put the vehicle out of service and it cannot be driven until rectified.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/bus/regulations/daily/page4a.shtml (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/bus/regulations/daily/page4a.shtml)
"A motor coach may be inspected using Schedule 2 only, or may be inspected using Schedules 3 and 4 in combination with each other.
If a schedule 3 and 4 combination is used:
* the driver conducts a Schedule 3 inspection and completes an inspection report, which is valid for 24 hours.
* an under-vehicle inspection technician (technician) conducts a Schedule 4 under-vehicle inspection and completes an inspection report, which is valid to the end of the 30th day after the day of inspection or for 12,000 km, whichever comes first.
* the driver must have a valid Schedule 3 inspection report and a valid Schedule 4 inspection report to drive the coach.
* a towed trailer is inspected using Schedule 2."
Cheers, Brian
I am not a professional driver, but do have a CDL (class A). I do not think in the US that a driver has to sign anything relative to his daily inspection. I think the only documented inspection is the annual DOT inspection.
Something I forgot to mention before. Folks feel comfortable that they have AUTOMATIC slack adjusters and don't need to perform a brake push rod inspection. That is ***terrible*** thinking. Our buses sit for long periods of time an automatic adjusters fail (had one fail on my bus and the brake was very close to "over caming").
You can get the equivalent of a DOT inspection almost anywhere. I think most any shop will do the equivalent inspection without any official paperwork. You can do it yourself if you are a good mechanic and follow the described inspection procedure.
I can't say it strong enough, either do your own inspection (using DOT procedures), or have someone do it at least every two years.
Jim
Couple of years ago I was taking my lunch break with the head of GVW here. We look over at the highway
and here is a big fancy 40ft RV pulling a pick-up on a trailer with a nice sized boat hooked to the tailer.
He just looked at it and shook his head. You'd be surprised at the number of big 5th wheels with boats behind
pull past my place every weekend as they go to the lake. They have more than max'd out what the pick-up was
designed to pull.
The point being is the people on this board are a minority of what is out there.
Would I welcome more stringent oversight on us with large RV's no would I understand the reason
for it--- yes.
Skip (DOT worker and no I'm not after your money)
I lived in Minnesota my whole life, over 50 years. Living in the NW metro area of Minneapolis, and have watched the Exodus of campers heading North on the big holiday weekends so many times I feel I can speak on the subject with some knowledge. Fishing opener, Memorial Day weekend, Fourth of July, and Labor Day are BIG. On a Friday you can watch Campers heading north on 169 ALL DAY LONG, and they are bumper to bumper. Converted School busses, Pickup Campers, Cars pulling trailers, pulling boats, pulling four wheelers, Jet Ski's, and piled down and loaded with Beer and Food and Ice and Camping gear, and fishing equipment, and anything else you can name or think of. And then there are the BIG RIGS, your 5th wheels, your 45 foot motorhome busses, and they are all pulling vehicles and crap too. I'm serious, they stream through from morning til late at night. They show it on the 6 O'clock news via Helicopter, lines of rigs heading off in every direction as far as the eye can see.
No one regulates them, Minnesota has no annual safety inspections on vehicles. They dont have CDL's. They arent all DOT compliant. Wheres all the wrecks and carnage? The RV people arent the problem. Its the drunks in their lil POS cars, people speeding on crotch rockets, kids in hot sports cars and pickup trucks. Open your eyes people.
Jim, the requirement for daily inspection would seem to be a Federal requirement in the US, under USDOT section 396.11 and 396.13
http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11 (http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11)
When you read it you see that it's actually a post-trip inspection, the inspecting driver has to sign it, the next driver only has to sign it if there are defects listed, and it has to be carried with the vehicle and kept on file with the company. I was kind of amused to see that if the driver isn't able to file the report with the company each day, he has to mail it in each day. I wonder how often that happens.
I would walk before I had to do all that to drive my bus.
Brian
Jim, if you were close to a cam-over, then it sounds like the auto slack WAS working, drawing up the excess free play in the brake stroke in order to keep the linings close to the drum.
A cam-over is a combination of conditions in which all the brake parts inside the drum are, together, too small to prevent the s-cam from rotating all the way around, dropping the rollers off into the back side of the cam.
Dis-assembly of the wheel end is required to put these back where they belong, and there will be no way to squeeze the brake on with the parts all hung up.
Cam-over is triggered by a combination of things:
Drums that are oversized or beyond tolerances for the inner circumference, and/or using rollers of too small a diameter to match the interior measure of the drum.
Mismatching the S cam for the application, having too small a cam, will also allow it to rotate too far and allow the rollers to fall off the end.
And wear induced sloppiness in the movement of parts in extreme cases will contribute to the space needed to get the rollers off the end of the cam.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Brian, I have been doing a bunch of searching to see if I can find the annual inspection procedure (FMCSA 396.17). So far no luck. In the search, I did find the day end report. Never heard of it before.
Buswarrior, I might not have used the correct term. The automatic slack adjuster was locked up. The brake rod travel was very long. I put an new slack adjuster on, adjusted it and everything was good. The travel was so far, that the brakes were not releasing on that wheel. You are correct that the "S" cams would not go over center for this problem, but something was locking up and not fully releasing. Worked fine after the replacement, so not a wear or part issue.
Now, back to trying to find the procedure. Can't believe that it is not published on the FMCSA site to allow owners to do their own inspection before the formal inspection.
Jim
Jim,
THis link to the pdf will have more than you may want but it has it all
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/eta/ETA%20Final%20508c.pdf (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/eta/ETA%20Final%20508c.pdf)
Enjoy
Skip
Jim, 396.17 is on the page I left the link for above, and here:
http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11 (http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11)
you just have to scroll down a couple of paragraphs.
Brian
I can not see the reasoning behind you guys thinking the RV market does not meet DOT standards that is totally wrong they meet the requirements, back in 2000 Country Coach was having front end problems and they recalled those on their own cost Country Coach big bucks and DOT did not ask for the recall in the same time frame DOT made Prevost issue a recall on their buses 1996 to 2000 don't knock the RV industry to bad about safety not to say they won't push the limit but so does you bus converters like Marathon and Featherlite did.
My dear friend Karl Blades at Newell exceeds the US DOT guide lines he does his coaches to the German standards probably safer than any bus on the road
good luck
Hi Clifford, I don't think the issue is whether they meet the DOT standards when new. I have some questions on the overloaded front ends. If those coaches crossed the scales and the inspectors saw the tire ratings (on those coaches that have not been updated) I think they could be in trouble.
What I think we are saying is: would the older buses pass the annual DOT inspection per 396.17? I suspect most would not.
Skip, I had seen the inspection procedure "North American Standard Inspection Procedure" (pages 104 and 105) in the document you gave the link for on one of the DOT pages. Funny thing was that their "official" link went to a very poor quality PDF of the same two pages.
I am concerned that those two pages are, at best, a check sheet. There is no reference to checking steering wheel free play and steering component wear. I know that those are part of the procedure.
I did find an interesting inspection process for school buses that is much more detailed: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/statepatrol/docs/inspection.pdf (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/statepatrol/docs/inspection.pdf)
Again, please do not interpret all of this as some sort of rant on safety. What I am trying to do is get an inspection procedure that would approximate the DOT inspection and then strongly suggest that folks check their bus to see how it complies.
Jim
Jim, I understand what you are saying but some believe that the MH's made don't meet any DOT standards and buses are so much safer, that maybe so in the lower end models but I have saw Newells and Foretravels in accidents before they came out a lot better than some buses I saw in accidents
good luck
I have a different take on it. I think that our buses, when new, and RV's when new, have to comply fully with the DOT regulations then in force, under the FMVSS regulations and others. I also think that our vehicles, and for that matter all vehicles, have to comply with the DOT regulations that apply to them any time they are on the road. Your vehicle should basically comply at all times, under all circumstances. Obviously sometimes it doesn't, a bulb burns out or whatever, and you get it repaired. But - I honestly think that a bus conversion should be able to pass an annual inspection or a daily inspection or whatever, all of the time. If you note in the regulations 396.23 on the link I posted, an annual inspection can be replaced by a roadside State inspection in many cases, and all vehicles are subject to roadside inspections (I presume they are, anyway, I don't think a State is going to say it's not allowed to do random roadside checks of vehicles).
I think the difference is just that we are not required to do the inspections, not that our buses don't have to be able to pass the inspections. I think that the vast majority of our buses from this board could pass an annual inspection. Maybe after a weekend or two of work, but they should be able to pass! It's not that big of a deal, I get annual inspections done on my truck and trailer, it's basically the same inspection as you would have to pass to get it licensed in the first place. Or can you guys get a used vehicle licensed without a state inspection?
Brian
Brian, I think the inspection for a purchased car varies from state to state. It used to be in CO they did a first level safety inspection when you bought a car or when you got your emission test done. They have not done that for several years. No safety inspection for non commercial vehicles and it kind of shows in terms of headlights and tail lights that don't work.
I think for the most part, we are preaching to the choir. Most of the folks on this board are probably pretty good about making sure that their buses are safe. My only hope is that this and the other threads will catch the newer folks and persuade them to do (or have done) a safety inspection.
Jim
Can non-commercial vehicles be flagged into roadside inspections, generally in the US? Up here they can, and they can inspect for all sorts of things. In the spring, they inspect RV's looking for people driving heavy without the right drivers license. People don't realize that the weight of a towed vehicle can put them over the limit for a regular drivers license.
Brian
On BNO, Ian has several articles. I thought I recalled a safety inspection article. Didn't find what I thought I recalled, but did run across R.J. Long's excellent pre-trip inspection article: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614)
I think that a very thorough daily inspection a good front end component inspection and a through brake arm travel inspection would go a long way to having a safe bus.
I should point out that the July and August 2010 issues have good inspection related articles. I don't agree with the author that automatic slack adjusters exempt you from checking brake adjustment, but most of the information is pretty good.
I have often given thoughts to writing an inspection article for BCM, but I am very concerned about the legal ramifications of that kind of article. I am glad that someone else is taking the bull by the horns.
Brian, I just saw your post on roadside inspection. It is my understanding the a non-commercial vehicle can be pulled over for inspection. I THINK that the cop has to have a reason to pull you over. Could be a law infraction, or something like a headlight out. I don't think it happens very often. I keep wondering if that won't change a bit as government agencies looks for income in this troubling economy.
Jim
Jim
Ive been driving since I was 15, almost 40 years now, and have driven all over most of the US. I have never been stopped to be inspected. We dont stop people down here that arent doing anything wrong, down here we would call that harrassment.
Quote from: rv_safetyman on September 05, 2010, 12:42:25 PM
I think for the most part, we are preaching to the choir. Most of the folks on this board are probably pretty good about making sure that their buses are safe. My only hope is that this and the other threads will catch the newer folks and persuade them to do (or have done) a safety inspection.
I wish I could believe that Jim but I don't. Many busnuts acquire their coaches as end of life commercial coaches that are sold precisely because they are not worth bringing back up to commercial standards. I've been under some that would be dragged off the road immediately if they were ever subject to an inspection - and they should be. When the choice is new balljoints or laminate flooring I'd like to believe that the balljoints always win out but I'm not sure they do. In fact I think a lot of the time the balljoints/slack adjusters/brake cams/kingpins don't even make it onto the list until they exhibit complete or near complete failure.
Very well said Bob fwiw I had a bus stop by last week the guy used Ace Hardware all thread rod to make the U bolts for the front axle he told me MCI U bolts cost to much he did all 4 for less than 20 bucks and when I tried to explain the difference in the bolts he said it would be alright he doesn't drive the bus much and the guy was on a 6000 mile trip. When are you heading south
good luck
WOW!
Yea Bob the all thread is very popular with some bus owners I seen it used in the motor mounts and other place where a grade 8 bolt was required
good luck
Ironically, here in California, they neither have yearly inspections, nor do they have any training requirements to drive a commercial bus as a motorhome. With a Class C normal license, you're allowed to drive up to a 3 axle house car that is up to 40ft long AND tow a pull trailer up to 10,000lbs. To me, that's down right scary. (just don't drive through New Mexico if your rig is over 26,000lbs)
For instance, my truck is right at 40ft long, and with 34,000lb tandems and 12,000lb front, I can weigh 46,000lb. Add 10,000lb for a trailer, and that is 56,000lbs that I could drive without special license (I have an active Class A commercial license). I believe that anyone that is purchasing a motorhome or bus large enough to have air brakes should be required to go through a training course about the air system and the proper way to maintain and drive air brakes. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, most states now allow 20,000 on the front IF the tires are rated that high. And in FL a commercial truck on the interstate can get away with 20,000 on the steering and 44,000 on the drive axle! (Tandem drive that is.)
Yeah, there are always a few idiots out there using sub standard parts and equipment. But are you fellas as blind to the other side as your eyes are wide open to the private side?
They have the Metropolitan Transit Commision up in Minnesota in charge of all public transportation. They are DOT exempt because its state run. We dismantled over 100 busses they pulled out of service, and if any private company had been caught doing some of the things they got away with they would have locked somebody up. Among some of the things we found, were extremely worn and loose steering parts, rigged air lines, tires so bald cord was showing, gauges and warning lights inop, especially air gauges. But the very worst was finding many busses that had all the side windows welded shut from outside and the emergency roof hatches screwed down from outside, and no visable warning you were trapped. Coupled with shoddy electrical wiring repairs, those busses were death traps. And we saw quite a number that had burned, it wasnt pretty. They did NOT weld them shut because they were broken, they welded them shut to keep people from opening them.
Talking to people in the Bus industry we learned that its the same in every major city. Governments that oversee transportaation are always very zealous in going after the private citizens, but turn a blind eye toward themselves when they operate the same equipment. And when there is an accident, these are the same people who investigate the accident and bury the facts from the public. You really do have the Fox in charge of the Hen house.
While I admit I am ignorant to how Busses drive, run down the road, climb hills, or the efficiencies of some of the systems, its because I just havnt ridden in many, and Ive driven them even less. But I have looked at a great many busses over the years, Transits, intercity, as well as many conversions, and have dissasembled many busses for scrap. If you lined up all the busses ive stood inside, it would number to over 1000, and the worst by far were publicly owned transits, they do not maintain anything. Most private stuff, in contrast, was in very good condition. Generally they only come out of service because the Bus was dated and the competition had newer stuff. It has nothing to do with the cost of keeping an old Bus in service, in fact its much cheaper, certainly far cheaper than buying new ones. Im sure there are some conversion owners operating out there you would not like seeing what they do, but you really dont want to be anywhere near a public transit Bus.
Clifford,
Your point about the all-thread is a head shaker, but I doubt an road inspection tests for the grade of bolt used anywhere. There could be similar transgressions in inspected vehicles that no one would catch until it failed. There will always be rogue repairs. I hope the all-thread was not from China.
The thread rod story brought back memories. When I built my truck conversion, I mounted the house part on the chassis with large thread rods on each side of the frame and big plates on the top and bottom.
Later I had a friend who was a certified inspector do an unofficial DOT inspection on the truck. The thread rods were quickly flagged by my friend. I doubt that there was an issue (used 3/4 thread rod and several tie downs), but I quickly got proper U bolts made by company that specializes in that product.
Jim
I once needed some big U-bolts for a trailer I was working on, to mount the hitch hardware. I called all over, and finally someone sent me to a truck spring shop. I went there, and in about 5 minutes they bent up some u-bolts from ready made straight blanks to exactly the size I needed on a special machine. I had no idea that was how they were made.
Brian
Ditto what Brian said.
Got a fresh set for the rear axle in the K1500 Suburban for something like $10 each.
Bent them right there for me.
Big truck spring shop is the place to go.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: rv_safetymanSelf governing does not work.
Tell that to the diving industry. For over fifty years we've been self regulating, successfully keeping the government out of our pursuit of happiness! :D
Unfortunately, the diving industry in other nations has been less fortuitous. Scuba police exist in the Med, Canada, and Australia.
Let's keep our country free.
I got my license at 15, and started driving a commercial vehicle at 16. I have driven all over the US, most of Canada, and some of Mexico commercially. I have driven both company owned trucks and my own. I have owned or managed several small trucking companies
I am going to assume, which is almost always a bad start, that the reason most folks on here would want any regulation on either driver and/or vehicle is to make the roads safer. I would offer the following observations based on the above experience.
SAFETY AIN'T NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN BY REGULATIONS!!
Irregardless of the regulations already in place, I have seen equipment on the road in every state/province, that should be in the junk yard, not once or twice, but many, many times. Any old time driver has a raft of stories. I have also seen drivers out of hours, unqualified, drunk, drugged, crippled and maladjusted driving everyday. Sure, some get caught, but most drive on until they die, retire, or do something that brings them to the attention of the authorities.
Everything works on capitalist principles. The only thing that will improve safety on the road is to make the risk greater than the reward.
As a society, we do not have the internal fortitude to do that; therefore, we pass increasingly restrictive laws that impinge on everyone's freedom.
For example, I despise drinking and driving. However, If you want to drink & drive I think you should be allowed. BUT, if you are involved in an accident, I think you should be executed on the spot. No trial, no 15 years on death row, we drag you out of the wreckage and hang you to the nearest tree or light pole. With the risk so great, the drunk driving problem would soon be solved.
This approach is the only one that will solve life's problems. As long as the perceived rewards, (money for hauling the load, getting to the job on time, drinking those 3 martinis to unwind after work, owning and driving a bus conversion instead of one of those measly sticks & staples) outweigh the risks (traffic tickets, fines, jail time, law suits, social stigma) the unwanted behavior will continue, because we are at the mercy of the individuals conscience.
And, to paraphrase Sgt. Friday, "That's the facts, Ma'am"
TOM
Tom, using Your logic there would be no adultery, use of drugs or alcohol in the Muslim countries! I think that proof positive is the laws in Muslim country's! I quite often agree with You , however stoning to death cutting hands off and be-headings do not seem to work either! Regulations just work for the honest, unfortunately it doesn't seem to faze a lot of people. Just My take, John L
I just bought a small utility trailer thats 5x10 that I'm going to use for hauling the goldwing or other stuff around, it has dog chain with the clasp for safety chains, I suppose maybe I should change them cause I really don't know how big a dog they were rated for. I'll be chaining up for a larger dog but thought you guys might enjoy what i found, that trailer was in regular use several times a year between up here and detroit a run of about 600 miles each way, I'll probably use the precoiled cable for the new safety chains.
For me, safety is all about attitude and education. You have to be of a mindset that you want to do it right in the first place, and you have to know, or be able to find out, how to do it right in the second place. If you don't care or you don't know, the odds of doing it right drop dramatically.
Risk vs reward implies that people know what is the right thing to do, and don't do it anyway, for whatever reason. Their attitude is "I will do it wrong, even though I know it's wrong, and me being the remarkably clever guy that I am I will not get caught, so there is no risk." Or, and this relates to us somewhat "I will do it wrong, but I will know what I did and me being a remarkably clever guy I will overcome whatever hurdles this throws at me down the road, so there is no risk. Plus I won't get caught". I don't put a lot of faith in a risk vs reward way of getting people to do what you want them to do.
Brian
Quote from: junkman42 on September 07, 2010, 07:01:38 AM
Tom, using Your logic there would be no adultery, use of drugs or alcohol in the Muslim countries! I think that proof positive is the laws in Muslim country's! I quite often agree with You , however stoning to death cutting hands off and be-headings do not seem to work either!
John, The reason they don't work in Muslim countries is they are not enforced unilaterally. You will notice the women seem to get punished & not the men UNLESS the man has already made the powers-that-be mad or the man is an American, Israelite, or whatever.
I have a heavy foot. I will normally run at whatever speed I think is safe, regardless of whether it is above or below the speed limit. I do that because, if caught, I can pay the fine. If they passed a law that said 56 MPH in a 55 zone would get you removed from your vehicle & hanged on the spot, AND ENFORCED IT ON EVERYBODY, I would be driving 45 MPH every where. There would be no "I'm sorry Officer, I wasn't paying attention" or "My speedometer is off by 10 MPH". I would obey the law. And, so would most on this board. I also submit, if you are dumb enough to take that chance, you shouldn't be driving anyway. Risk versus reward.
So, my way would weed out the malcontents & massive risk takers. Would there be some semi-innocents executed? Sure, but how many innocents are executed legally or illegally now? No system is perfect, but I think mine would be better.
Notice I am NOT in favor of more laws and regulations. I am saying you can do what you want UNTIL YOU HURT SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY. Then, you pay the price.
Just my take too ;D ;D
TOM
Jim,
Here is appendix G that has all of it.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=r49CFRSubtitleBChapterIIISubchapterBAppendixG (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=r49CFRSubtitleBChapterIIISubchapterBAppendixG)
Skip
I found that very interesting, for several reasons. One is that it is a "North American Uniform Driver-Vehicle Inspection Procedure (NAUD-VIP)", which would imply that it is applicable in both US and Canada, which makes sense, two is that it acknowledges that there are different failure criteria for a periodic (annual) inspection and for a roadside inspection. Road side inspections acknowledge that a vehicle with some faults that would fail the periodic can be allowed to continue on ( for example 20% of brakes fail inspection vs 0% fail inspection), and they don't list DD3 brake cannisters in their list. Oh well, we are getting old I guess...
deleted a bit I didn't read the fine print on.
Brian
guys we have rode this poor horse to death time to put him out to pasture and close the gate
good luck
Gentlemen, we are unfortunately dealing with two very different cultures. People in other countries cannot understand that some of us here in the US would rather be dead than allow our Government to have much authority over us, anymore than we can understand that they welcome it. We both want the same things, something we can never truly have, we just have different ideas how to accomplish it.
I pulled this up off the NTHSA DOT statistics for 1998, which I believe is that last year they have compiled. You can read the entire document here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/ncsa/tsf-1998.pdf (http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/ncsa/tsf-1998.pdf)
Please note that there were not many bus crashes, but that the majority were transits and school busses, which are almost all PUBLICALLY regulated and generally exempt from spot DOT inspections such as commercial vehicles are. And note too, that only 15 fatalities occured for busses other, and busses unknown. I dont know what those are, but probably not all would be conversions, and quite possibly none of them are if registered as an RV. Looking at large truck based motorhomes, which could possibly include Bus conversions, are 24 fatalities. In any case, for the year of 1998, less than 50 people died in these vehicles, a small fraction of a percent of the total number. More people died on Farm equipment, snowmobiles and ATV's. I think there are greater things to worry about that Big Bus Campers driven by normal Joes with standard drivers licenses.
Table 36
Vehicles Involved in Fatal Crashes by Body Type
Body Type Number Percent Body Type Number Percent
Passenger Cars 28,992 51.0 Large Trucks 4,935 8.7
Convertible 297 0.5 Step Van 21 *
2 Door Sedan, Hardtop, Coupe 8,353 14.7 Single Unit Truck
3 Door/2 Door Hatchback 1,882 3.3 (10,000 lb < GVWR ≤ 19,500 lb) 165 0.3
4 Door Sedan Hardtop 16,235 28.6 Single Unit Truck
5 Door/4 Door Hatchback 473 0.8 (19,500 lb < GVWR ≤ 26,000 lb) 249 0.4
Station Wagon 1,066 1.9 Single Unit Heavy Truck
Hatchback, Doors Unknown 45 0.1 (GVWR > 26,000 lb) 863 1.5
Other Auto 105 0.2 Single Unit Truck, Unknown GVWR 48 0.1
Unknown Auto 469 0.8 Truck Tractor 3,554 6.2
Auto-Based Pickup 67 0.1 Unknown Medium Truck
(10,000 lb < GVWR ≤ 26,000 lb) 5 *
Light Trucks 19,217 33.8 Unknown Heavy Truck
Compact Utility 3,460 6.1 (GVWR > 26,000 lb) 6 *
Large Utility 677 1.2 Unknown Large Truck Type 23 *
Utility Station Wagon 346 0.6 Unknown Truck 1 *
Utility, Unknown Body Type 16 *
Minivan 2,257 4.0 Motorcycles 2,324 4.1
Large Van 1,403 2.5 Motorcycle 2,215 3.9
Step Van 68 0.1 Moped 33 0.1
Van-Based School Bus 5 * Three Wheel Motorcycle or Moped 2 *
Van-Based Transit Bus 6 * Off-Road Motorcycle (Two Wheel) 40 0.1
Other Van Type 16 * Other Motorcycle/Minibike 30 0.1
Unknown Van Type 58 0.1 Unknown Motorcycle 4 *
Compact Pickup 4,252 7.5
Standard Pickup 6,383 11.2 Buses 285 0.5
Pickup with Camper 43 0.1 School Bus 111 0.2
Convertible Pickup 2 * Cross Country/Intercity Bus 37 0.1
Unknown Pickup Style Truck 122 0.2 Transit Bus 115 0.2
Cab Chassis-Based Light Truck 86 0.2 Other Bus 15 *
Other Conventional Light Truck 1 * Unknown Bus 7 *
Unknown Light Truck (not pickup) 6 *
Unknown Light Vehicle Type 7 * Other Vehicles 450 0.8
Unknown Truck 3 * Large Limousine 5 *
Van-Based Motorhome 30 0.1
Light Truck-Based Motorhome 2 *
Large Truck-Based Motorhome 24 *
Unknown Truck Camper/Motorhome 40 0.1
All Terrain Vehicle 149 0.3
Snowmobile 46 0.1
Farm Equipment Except Trucks 84 0.1
Construction Equipment Except Trucks 22 *
Other Vehicle 48 0.1
Unknown Body Type 662 1.2
Total 56,865 100.0
This thread sure got everyones blood flowing didn't it ::)
Rest assured that the spinless burocrats that put all this crap up for legeslation in the name of safty will not ever go here because all they are about is power and control. They will not mess with this industry because they precive it as mostly made up of older folks who DO VOTE and getting elected and reelected is paramount to everything to most of them.
Bus! ;D
It makes me so SAD that a very large number of threads degrade to a rant about our government.
It doesn't seem to matter who is in office or what arm of the government folks are discussing - the hatred of government seems to bubble out like some witches cauldron. I feel almost ashamed that I am a citizen of a country where a large segment of our citizens are filled with what seems like vomit spilling out of their hands and hitting the keyboards.
Sure I understand that we all have a right to say whatever we want. Sure I understand that we have problems. But I just wish that somehow folks could find something good to say about our country and not "spit" on every person trying to help run this country.
Sorry, but on a day where we morn the huge loss of Americans, my thoughts are distracted and I am overwhelmed by the unbelievable hatred for our government.
This thread had some pretty good discussion about the safe operation of our buses, but that is all lost now.
Jim
Personally I feel that there are enough laws to protect me from myself now, I believe I'm intelligent enough to know if I step on the brake pedal and the bus keeps going that I will realize I need to work on my brakes, I'm also smart enough to know if I get in a bike wreck and am not wearing a helmet I may bash my head around a bit and get hurt, for generations we were given the benefit of the doubt, then lawyers realized they could profit from litigating things that would never have gotten as far as a court room in the past and away we went. So now we look to the government to provide the common sence that we used to possess, we legislate things like the temperature of hot water, if it scalds I'm smart enough to wait for it to cool, I don't need some wiser than me senator saying that water should be no warmer than 105F or 109F, I feel there are far better things they could be doing like being pampered by the special interest groups so they can fund their next vacation or home. Shouldn't they have to get a job when they get out of office like the rest that become unemployed, do they need a pension after 2 years that equals or exceeds that of major corporate executives that spend their entire lives plundering the pockets of their workers. Please stop protecting me from myself, I promise to try not to hurt myself or my neighbors, there is nothing i can do about the idiots that will continue to ignore common sence or laws, I'll just try to avoid them.
I havnt read anything here of people angry with our Government. But there is a strong feeling in many Americans that weve had enough laws and rules and regulations put in force against us and we simply dont want any more. Some of us actually want a lot less of the ones we have, and some of our Brothers to North who are Governed by a Queen feel we should have as many laws as they do.
But today everyones thoughts and feeling are somewhere else. We all lost a great deal of our rights and freedoms this day, Nine years ago. Lets try not to lose anymore if we can help it.
Quote from: cody on September 11, 2010, 01:04:34 PM
Personally I feel that there are enough laws to protect me from myself now, I believe I'm intelligent enough to know if I step on the brake pedal and the bus keeps going that I will realize I need to work on my brakes, I'm also smart enough to know if I get in a bike
A scenario like this is the exact reason why the government would want to regulate RVs. A commercial vehicle operator is supposed to check their brakes very often. They are also not supposed to operate if the brakes are not up to snuff.
We should be finding serious brake problems before we notice the vehicle isn't stopping properly anymore. Do you really want to hit someone in a crosswalk or rear end a vehicle because your brakes weren't working?
Now, I am not advocating the government regulate RVs like commercial vehicles. This is just one reason they might want to do so. Too many people expect the government to pass a new law every time an accident happens. Sometimes accidents happen and we need to live with it.
Brian, what I'm saying is I know how to check my brakes and do so often, I don't need a law that mandates a brake check, give a person credit for having enough common sence to keep their investment operating correctly, if a person needs a law to require them to do so then possibly they shouldn't own a bus. We have too many foolish laws that arn't enforced now, we don't need more. It's like requiring under penalty of law to check your rear view mirror at 15 second intervals, as a matter of common sence and safe driving practice, we should check often and not because it's a law. If people honestly feel that we need more laws, then they should be writing their legislators and helping author the bills to enact more laws in as many areas as they feel are lacking in proper legislative control.
Quote from: belfert on September 11, 2010, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: cody on September 11, 2010, 01:04:34 PM
Personally I feel that there are enough laws to protect me from myself now, I believe I'm intelligent enough to know if I step on the brake pedal and the bus keeps going that I will realize I need to work on my brakes, I'm also smart enough to know if I get in a bike
A scenario like this is the exact reason why the government would want to regulate RVs.
Curious if you even read the link I posted to the NHTSA report. Busses are among the least likely vehicles to be involved in accidents, and of those, the vast majority of busses involved in accidents were School Busses and Public Transit busses. The busses we are involved with here, conversions, are such a low percentage to really be of no concern. Seriously, there were more fatalities (22) involving construction equipment, than the 15 involved with non commercial Busses.