I need tires and am thinking of ways to save $$.
What are the opinions on recaps. Are they worth taking a chance on for drive tires?
Thanks
Kevin
Sweeney153
Kevin this is a loaded question.
Some think so, some don't. Put me in the don't list, but keep in mind my buses are used different than yours!
;D BK ;D
QuotePut me in the don't list
BK
Why
Im scared of retreads on a bus! However, awhile back I found this interesting article and might would consider them for drives:
The obvious question is "what should
someone look for in a retreading company in
order to get the highest quality retreads?"
Based on our research, we would recommend
that you select a company using the
Marangoni Ringtreads. If possible, that
retreading company should also have laser
shearography, an extruder instead of rolls of
cushion gum, inner and outer envelopes,
steam autoclaves for curing, and pressure testing
of retreaded tires. These state-of-the-art
improvements could mean that your retreads
will hold up better than your new tires. http://www.busmag.com/PDF/Retreads.pdf (http://www.busmag.com/PDF/Retreads.pdf)
1st off we HAUL PASSENGERS!
Down time is something I can not and will not tolerate under any circumstances!
Second our buses sometimes run 700-1200 miles one-way with very few and short stops @ 70-75 mph.
I just never have liked CAPS, they maybe OK for some but not me!
If we blow a tire with a group of people on not only do we have to deal with getting it changed, the damage it can and does to a bus, but we have to deal with 25-56 PO'd passengers too!
Just not our way!
Now on a coach that sees more sitting time than road time, and limited high speed travel and limited distances it maybe OK. But keep in mind a cap will have a slightly harsher ride than the original casing did because the "treads" are made out of a harder compound.
(some charter companies are reporting good success in using CAPS on the tags only because of the "harder tread" compound lasting longer due to being able to resist scuffing" better!)
But also keep in mind if you have caps on the tag and blow a steer tire you can't chain a tag up and move the tire to the steer because it's a "CAP"
Just my honest opinion which along with $3 will buy you a cup of coffee!
;D BK ;D
Why should you be afraid of recaps? The big rubber tire pieces on the road you see-it has been proven that half are from new tires, and half from recap tires. I've had brand new tires fail in the first 150 miles, and have had recaps go 150,000 miles on my trailer. On the drivers and tags, I wouldn't think twice about running caps. The number cause of failure-low tire pressure. So install a PressurePro to monitor all your tires-I have it and it works great! Good Luck, TomC
I was driving a corvette at about 80 mph and had retreads on the back. One cut loose and it sounded like my drivers side was being shot with a machine gun! The tire tore up my vette all the way from the front of the driver's door to the rear of the car. Not to mention, I was coming down a hill at the same time and had to maintain control of the car and it was SCARRY as *&%$
Quote from: happycamperbrat on August 23, 2010, 04:27:42 PM
I was driving a corvette at about 80 mph and had retreads on the back. One cut loose and it sounded like my drivers side was being shot with a machine gun! The tire tore up my vette all the way from the front of the driver's door to the rear of the car. Not to mention, I was coming down a hill at the same time and had to maintain control of the car and it was SCARRY as *&%$
Well 1st off I'd NEVER put caps on a vette, but then again I know how I drive! ;)
;D BK ;D
That was my first and only experience with recaps. But to answer Tom's question, that is the reason why. Ha!! Makin it down that hill under the conditions should qualify me for some sortofa driver's brownie point ;)
Quote from: happycamperbrat on August 23, 2010, 04:35:32 PM
That was my first and only experience with recaps. But to answer Tom's question, that is the reason why. Ha!! Makin it down that hill under the conditions should qualify me for some sortofa driver's brownie point ;)
I'm sure there were some brownie "
points" 'er I mean "stains" involved! ;)
;D BK ;D
I'll jump in here as we just bought new 6 new. I had recaps on the tag and never had a problem in the 7 years we've had the coach. But we also don't drive a lot of miles. I chose new because I only want to do it once, they'll probably rot before we need to change them and by that time I'll be 71 or so.
I think it all depends on how much you drive your coach. If it sits most of the time you might be OK.
I know about trying to get the best deal, we shopped for a long time before I would let loose of the cash. We think we got a pretty good deal at just over $400 each for Firestone FS560 24.5. That was total out the door cost. The feeling of having new is a good one. 8)
If the price difference is not much, I would go with new. If you think of the cost of mounting, any down time if one fails and then you would have an oddball on the drives.
It a tough decision sometimes, just weigh the options and open your wallet! ;)
Kevin -
OTOH, if recaps can survive this, they should hold up ok on an RV:
Best burnout ever! Bandag Bullet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mB8Fj-ZO2Q&feature=fvwk#)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Yes RJ he does abuse those caps! But those are not the same caps they sell for HWY use! And he probably changes them after about 3-4 shows! (after all look who his sponsor is!)
;D BK ;D
And that's only a "6.7" liter Cummins according to what it say's below the video while it's showing! (just think how bad a DD 8V71 or 8V92 would abuse them! ;) )
BK -
I've seen the Bullet, or one of the duplicates.
Two double-turbocharged (4!) 8V92TAs power them. . .
Point I'm making is that Bandag, especially, provides a good quality recap that should work fine in RV service on the drivers/tags.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I have owned truck for over 40 years, I have run more recaps on the drives then new tires. I have never had a cap come off or give me trouble. Now this is since they developed the cold cap. The old hot cap was another story. Last week I just installed four new caps and I have four more being caped now. How ever I put all new tires on the bus, don't know why but that is what I did. Each is own.
RJ,
Your right I had to go back and re-watch it (not that I wanted too ;)) and saw what what I was refering to was a plug for a Dodge commercial!
I'm like you I saw the "fleet of Bandag racers" a long time ago and thought I remembered them being powered by 8V92's!
And I just knew that sounded like a Detroit not no Cum=a-part in the video, I saw 6.7 L Cummins and didn't pay close enough attn what it was for!
And I agree Bandag is by far the best in the CAP business! And should be fine for SOMEONE else's RV/conversion. But even when I sneak one out back and convert it while dad ain't look'n there'll be no caps on mine! Just my way! and as FAST FRED say's Do it your way YMMV! ;)
;D BK ;D
It your part of the states a cap will last forever I always ran caps on my trucks and trailers the 140 degree pavement temperatures we get in AZ will take toll but it will on a new tire also,I never ran caps on the bus I am sure they would do fine
I must confess to putting them on my drives. Used, refurb, recaps at that. At the time my date codes were 99 and one was starting to split. I needed to take a trip and got the 4 installed for less than one new tire.
Maybe not the BEST option but a much better option than not going at all. My bus sits much more than it rides
I may take Dallas's advice and buy Two new tires every couple or so years and put them on the front and move the set back.
they get pricier around here with the 11R24.5, 22.5's were quite easy to find.
Of course, If I had all BK's money I would just get a new bus with new tires on it. :-* ;D
Quote from: NewbeeMC9
Of course, If I had all BK's money I would just get a new bus with new tires on it. :-* ;D
Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahahaha! Bahahahahahahahaha!
Thanks Newbee, I needed a good laugh! ;)
;D BK ;D
:D
i have no experience with recaps. i have heard/seen the mess a blowout can make, and i "was" under the impression most of the alligators i see on the road were from recaps until tomc posted.
i just spent $1500 to put 4 new goodyear 11r24.5 tires on the drive. tax, title, balanced, and mounted. money well spent, i think. i'd rather not lose a few more hours waiting on the side of the road, or have to fix a fender.
recaps can't be that much less when you count time, costs and effort.
yes, i know new tires blow, but recaps i thought were more susceptable. safety comes first.
my 2 cents based on ??
I run recaps on drives....during this time period I have had two blow outs...both were new tires on steer. just a observation...neither blow out was from low air pressure..Bob
I think whether you use recaps is often related to prejudices rather than fact. I had 4 recaps put on the drive axle last fall. Total cost was $936.63 including tires, labor, balancing, new valve stems, disposal of old tires, and tax. I am comfortable with these recaps because the company has been in business a long time, they are warrenteed as long as there is tread on them, and they will fix any damage caused by a blowout. I don't put very many miles on the bus so I know that whether I have new tires or recaps I will be changing them before either kind is worn out. From a purely economic point it makes sense for me to buy recaps. YMMV.
Good luck, Sam MC8
Quote from: Sam 4106 on August 24, 2010, 06:53:11 AM
I think whether you use recaps is often related to prejudices rather than fact. I had 4 recaps put on the drive axle last fall. Total cost was $936.63 including tires, labor, balancing, new valve stems, disposal of old tires, and tax. I am comfortable with these recaps because the company has been in business a long time, they are warrenteed as long as there is tread on them, and they will fix any damage caused by a blowout. I don't put very many miles on the bus so I know that whether I have new tires or recaps I will be changing them before either kind is worn out. From a purely economic point it makes sense for me to buy recaps. YMMV.
Good luck, Sam MC8
Sam,
Great post, and yes with a good warranty like that from a reputable company that has been around, that will repair damages caused by a blowout I can see using them on a truck, conversion or RV. But I still stand my ground on not having them on my charter buses.
I'm sure if a tire blew, and the damage caused the driver to lose control and wreck I'd be standing in front of the judge by myself saying "but your Honor, they guaranteed me they'd stand behind those recaps, I just didn't realize HOW far behind!"
;D BK ;D
Something to think about! The next time You fly on a commercial jet consider that when the capt puts the tires on the runway He most likely just was using recaps! Blowouts are from bad casings not the cap! A cap coming off does not leave alligators along the road with wire hanging out of them. Old prejudices are slow to die! The military uses recaps on some really demanding aircraft. And yes I know the military wastes everything. Thought I would throw that in before the anti military person speaks. Regards John L
I think it's like buying a new tire, do your homework, a good company with a good track record could probably sell a good recap, personally I'm from a timeframe that the recaps may not as been quite so dependable and for that reason I'm scared of them but I realize that times may have changed and with them the quality of the caps. So do the homework.
Good timing on this post as I have a question.....I am not too familiar with recaps, but can get Michelin ones for about 1/2 the price of virgin tires, so I have a question for those "in the know". Have seen the posts about replacing the tires after 10 years. I have 4 tires (on the drives) that probably have about 20K on them. They look close to new on both the tread and the sidewall. When recaps are made and they use older casings (eg: ten years) would these sidewalls still not be the "ten year old ones" and susceptible to failure??? ??? ??? ???
TIA....Tim
Quote from: Timkar
When recaps are made and they use older casings (eg: ten years) would these sidewalls still not be the "ten year old ones" and susceptible to failure??? ??? ??? ???
TIA....Tim
Ah good question. I'm not knowledgeable enough to give an educated answer. But I would think their would be an age limit on who old the casings could be.
After all as you said they are still 10 yrs old!
Now some of our more knowledgeable nut will probably have more info than I do!
;D BK ;D
I don't have a problem with a recaps per se, I use the same criteria I'd use for a new tire, quality product from a reputable dealer.
Recaps can't be any better than the casing. Most of us will replace out tires because of age, not wear. So, now it comes down to the age of the casing on the recap. If it is 3 years old, it only has 3 years left. (I've had too many tires fail at 7 years to trust any of 'em past 6.)
Let's not forget the issue of tire history - you won't know the extent of past damage inflicted on the tire.
It is for these reasons I prefer new tires over recaps.
(not to say I wouldn't use them, just that my preference is for new.)
Quote from: sweeney153 on August 23, 2010, 04:04:31 PM
I need tires and am thinking of ways to save $$.
What are the opinions on recaps. Are they worth taking a chance on for drive tires?
What "chance" are you taking? Recaps are running on at least half of the semis in the country. If there were any risk inherent to recaps, they would be outlawed -- and truckers wouldn't touch them anyway. The money you save when buying a recap is less than what you lose getting a road service truck out to put on another tire, so sheer economics would have put recaps out of business decades ago if there were a problem.
Consider that the CASING of the tire does the real work, like your leg and foot -- the cap is just the shoe that provides traction and protects the casing from being punctured by rocks and junk.
A brand-new casing is MORE likely to fail than a casing which has been run a few thousand miles -- the heat cycles that the casing takes actually season it. When they put a new cap on an existing casing, the casing is fully broken in -- and is given an inspection, before and after the trip through the oven.
The real problem is if you let the tire pressure get low -- overheated tires will come apart, whether recaps or first-run.
The company I bought my recaps from gave the Midwest Bus Nuts group a tour of their recapping plant a few years ago while the employees were working. As we came to each station in the inspection and capping process the person at that station stopped working and explained their step in the process and answered any questions. I , at least, got a very good understanding of the process. After seeing the complex procedure that the tires go through I felt that any fault had been caught and repaired or that casing was rejected. I don't think they will recap a tire that is very old but I don't know what the age limit is. Remember that you can also get new tires that have been laying in a warehouse too long, especially if your size tires are low in demand. We all do the things that we are comfortable with. I am probably willing to accept a higher degree of risk than some others. The original poster asked for opinions and I'm glad that so many have offered theirs.
Good luck, Sam MC8
In the past, on my truck, I had very good service from Bandag recaps, as RJ said. They ARE a little harder ride than some others.
I also had to replace on another truck, five BRAND NEW Firestones (bought as a set) which blew out at highway speeds during the first year on the road. Yes, I was meticulous about air pressure and keeping them balanced and rotated. I dragged the blown Firestone carcases all the way from central Mexico up to Texas where I had bought them for exchange or refund. The dealer blamed me, and wouldn't settle. A few months later Firestone had a whole bunch of lawsuits. I have steered clear of Firestones ever since. I use Michelin or Goodyear.
Quote from: Sam 4106 on August 24, 2010, 11:09:17 AM
. . . . Remember that you can also get new tires that have been laying in a warehouse too long,. . . .
Exactly the point I was trying to make - available casing life is more important to me than if it is new or recapped.
One thing that i noticed here is that nobody that bought recaps said they put them on the steers. Why is that?
I may be mistaken Ed, but I believe it is illegal to run recaps on steers.
You can run recaps on the steers if it is for regional use only (limited freeway use). I know UPS brown delivery vans use recaps on the steers that I've seen in L.A. But for over the road and continuous high speed use, no they are not legal. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on August 24, 2010, 02:17:25 PM
You can run recaps on the steers if it is for regional use only (limited freeway use). I know UPS brown delivery vans use recaps on the steers that I've seen in L.A. But for over the road and continuous high speed use, no they are not legal. Good Luck, TomC
Tom thank you for that insight!
I know they aren't legal at all on the steer axle of a bus! I had no clue about trucks, RV's cars etc!
;D BK ;D
I have two friends that are in the recap business..Phil Raben and Reis tires...in the midwest..my area..they put me in recaps for drivers..and for now they were rite..the two new tires I had fail were less than 3 yrs old with 90% tread.with monitored air /temp monitoring with alarm..Reis said they don"t do over 5 yr old casings and inspect all very close..actually rejected a 3yr old casing I provided..so I run recaps on drivers.and would run on tags if needed..I do run new tires under 5yrs old on steers..then to tags they go...11,100 total weight on front axle.315 80 r 22.5 tires..90 lbs air per manufacturer..do I trust new tires???good question!will not be Goodyear..both that failed were..My experience only....and my formed opinion Bob
Ok wise ones can you put on regular tires on the inside that are new because I have them but not installed yet and caps on the outside in the rear? or not good idea?
Dave
If it where me I would run the caps with caps. and if you chose to mix make sure the height is the same.
In NY you cannot run recaps at steering axle on commercial buses. Thats all that is prohibited. Most people wont ever on the steers. Have you got any prices on the retreads Kevin?
i have a line on 4 for $250.00 from a friend.
Thought maybe that it wasn't legal to run them on steers but wasn't sure about that. So what does that tell you about recaps???...... I have never run recaps on anything i have owned, and I never will. :)
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on August 24, 2010, 07:48:51 PM
Thought maybe that it wasn't legal to run them on steers but wasn't sure about that. So what does that tell you about recaps???......
Nothing, since some laws are based on lobbyist influence instead of facts. Just imagine the money manufacturers spend to sell more of their product?
If recaps were so bad, you'd see more trouble out of 'em. As it is, a quality recap is as good as a new tire (as long as the age isn't an issue).
Most of the recap failures were from the old days & most of the negative stories date way back . . . . My grandad had lots of horror stories about caps coming off. . . .
I'd still say for our use, the unit cost of the tire is price divided by useable time left, not miles. . . .
And tires are one place i am not going to scrimp on. ;D
Right on Ed! I can't seem to get across that tires are much more then big round rubber things that hold air. Michelin makes over 50 models just for trucks, and each model a very specific use. By running an el cheapo tire on the drives, yes you'll save a bunch of money, but your stopping distance will be not as good as if you had a specific drive tire like the Michelin XDN2 (probably the best traction and riding tire made now-and also $$$$). The difference in a few feet of stopping power can make the difference between hitting and not hitting. Good Luck, TomC
If you want to save $$ and be safe, you might do what I did. I went to a size smaller then the 12r22.5 and the price was about cut in half for Firestone FS560 Of course you need to keep a close eye on your weight if you do that. But for me this was the perfect answer as I can get the 11r22.5 almost anywhere at almost anytime, they are waaaayyy less expensive but of good quality (as a matter of fact doing this you can get a better quality tire then you could maybe afford by keeping the larger size), and my bus is as light weight as it will ever be because I am still in the stripping phase. When I start adding stuff though I will have to be careful and if it looks like I am too close to the edge then I will reconsider and maybe go for 11r24.5 with new wheels. Another option is to buy virgin take offs from truckers or professional bus company's or even the fire department.
Quote from: DMoedave on August 24, 2010, 05:12:40 PM
In NY you cannot run recaps at steering axle on commercial buses. Thats all that is prohibited. Most people wont ever on the steers. Have you got any prices on the retreads Kevin?
You can not run re-caps on the steer of COMMERCIAL BUSES anywhere in the US!
;D BK ;D