Anybody familiar with a cummins ISL. I have an a chance to pick one up with an Allison transmission. It is a 400hp unit. The web site sayes 1200 ft lbs. How does this compare with the ISM?
The ISL is a medium duty engine (about 500,000 mile life expectancy) that is 8.9 liter. I think it is a great engine for what we do, plus you can get it with a full Jake brake. It weighs around 1,600lbs, which is about 450lbs lighter then the ISM. The ISM is a 10.9 liter engine and can be built up to a 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. While it sounds like the same rating as the 14 liter Series 60, the ISM does not have the big fat torque curve like the Series 60, so the ISM would be a bit slower up the hill.
I would get the ISL and Allison transmission. Make sure you get all the wiring, wiring diagram, electronic gas pedal, and electronic shifter with it. It would be way too expensive to try to put those items together if they were not included. Good Luck, TomC
Eric, there is a guy on the Eagles board that has the ISL in his Eagle I only know what he told me and he says when they are set at 400 hp 1200 lbs of torque is at 2200 rpm and and set at 350 hp 1200 lbs of torque is at 1300 rpm sounds crazy to me but he has told me the ISM or M11 would have been a better choice with the Eagle gearing most of those guys with the Cummins in their Eagles fuel mileage is not that great.
Check there I know Darrel reads but never saw him post if he doesn't answer I will pm his number to you and you can talk to him
good luck
Eric, I wanted an ISL for my MCI. I looked and looked and could not find one used. I think it is a great compromise between durability and size. You will not go wrong with it and as a bonus you won't need to extend the rear of your bus to accommodate it. As others have stated - get the wiring harness for both the engine and transmission, the shifter, the indicator (if there is a separate one), the throttle, and any other misc. parts you possibly can. I ended up going with an ISM on my conversion. Here is a link to my site for more details if you are interested: http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ediehls0792_1/BusSection10.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ediehls0792_1/BusSection10.html)
Eric has a Eagle he can install about any engine in the bus without extending the back his draw back is the gearing and dropbox for the ISL engine
Luvrbus- ALL ISL engines produce their peak torque around 1200-1300rpm and peak horsepower around 2200rpm. That 2200rpm peak torque is a typo. Good Luck, TomC
I don't know oneway or the other Tom but reading the torque curve that engine torque falls in a hurry after or above 1200 to 1300 rpm people do what they want but for a 40,000 lb bus I would go with ISM, the only bus manufactures that used the ISL where the shuttles and school bus guys.
I don't think he would be happy with that engine in a Eagle but it is his choice
Ahoy, Eric,
I have a 400 hp Cummins M-11 in my 33,000 lb -01 Eagle along with a Roadranger 10 spd transmission. My engine is much like the ISM engine, but with a 400 hp peak.
I'd not go for the smaller ISL engine with less torque. My nephew has a 400 hp ISL in his SeeYa motorhome - about the same weight as my bus. I get much better fuel mileage than he does. Some of it may be due to my more efficient transmission. Other than that fuel matter, the engine / transmission is quite acceptable to him.
Enjoy /s/ Bob
I think after digging into this that the correct liine is that the ISL is a little light for the application. My 05 weighs in at around 38,000 lbs. I also tow a 16' vnose at about 3500 lbs. My 8-71n pulls great at 70-75 mph on flat ground. On a hill with no run it gets ugly quick. Speed is nott the issue which relates more to hp. Power on the hills is where I need the help. The same man said that he has several series 60's. They are the older ddec 11 liter engines. May look at those. Sounds like the 60, or ism may be my best bet. I still have to deal with the rear end gearing. I have a 3:73. at 72mph I am at 2100 rpm which is great for the 8-71 but not a later engine. I was thinking an overdrive tranny would fix that ? Lots of dumb questions, but need to ask LOL!!
Cummins rates the 400-450hp ISL up to 65,000lbs! Freightliner is running the Cummins ISL Natural Gas at 320hp and 1000lb/ft torque in regional service up to 80,000lbs picking up overseas containers at L.A. and Long Beach port delivering them in the L.A. area successfully (to the tune of about 600 trucks delivered). Considering when I bought my first truck in 1980, the standard engine in the trucks was the Cummins NTC 290 with 930lb/ft torque (14 liter), engines are much more powerful now.
I still stick with the ISL being more then enough power, more then a 6-71, 8V-71 (including my turbocharged and air to air intercooled 8V-71) or 6V-92TA. Yes the ISM will be more power, but then you have to run the very expensive 4000 series Allison transmission, compared to the ISL running the 3000 series Allison (B500 compared to the B400). Also, remember you have to pay for the larger engines, whether it be the higher price of the parts, the bigger oil capacity at oil change, bigger air cleaners, etc. Besides, how fast do you need to go up a hill? Good Luck, TomC
P.S: as good of an engine as the Series 60 is, it is physically way to large to be stuffing in the back of the bus. I know many have done it, but they are just really large beasts.
I was looking at my latest fmca mag today and saw a fleedwood 42' coach with tag. It had a 400 hp ISL. The road test report staede plenty of power on start and up to 6% grade!!! Interesting!
Eric, take your time and keep doing your homework as you are. While contemplating our repower we were told time and time again that a 6V71 would be a expensive underpowered mistake. It is all a weight,power and gearing exercise and if done correctly you will have a pleasure to drive and the $ well spent. Good luck. There are alot of great mechanics on the boards and many who have done repowers who dont use the PC. Get to as many big bus rallies as you can. It wont be $ wasted. Good luck
Just for comparison, what are the numbers on an 8-71n for hp, and tourqe. I don't know if I have larger injectors or not. Can the 8-71 be reconfigured to get better performance without a loss of durabibilty. I know this is a loaded question, but I jus don't know!!!
With N70 injectors, and advanced timing, the non turbocharged 8V-71 could be a true 318hp with 866lb/ft torque. Detroits last build of that engine was a N80 injector 8V-71TA with turbocharging and aftercooling with 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque. Comparing to the Cummins ISL at 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque. Also consider that the ISL is about 800lbs lighter, and will last about the same 500K miles before overhaul. You'll also find the ISL not too much longer then the 8V-71. Good Luck, TomC
I finally did some homework and found the dimensions and weights of the 8V-71 vs the ISL. Here are the results:
8V-71N- 47"L x 39"W x 51"H & 2,310lbs.
ISL- 44.4"L x 27.7"W x 45.9"H & 1,627lbs.
The ISL is 2.6" shorter, 11.3" narrower, 5.1" less height, and 683lbs lighter! It is a modern 4 stroke electronically controlled engine now with common rail fuel injection that is extremely quiet. Personally-the choice is a no brainer to me. Good Luck, TomC
The guy wants $ 8,500.00 for the 400hp ISL, and an Allison automatic. App. mileage is 1500. He also has a detroit 11.1 series with 115k miles. He wants $ 4,500.00 for the engine.
Eric, I looked at an ISL with Allison also. I think the guy had it for 4.5K with rear end and all from a RV. I looked it up to see what MPG they were getting. Most said 6.5 to 7. Not that impressive, may be to small? Working hard all the time. Just a thought. Tom Y
That's a good price, considering the Allison automatic is worth $10,000 alone. Make sure it comes with all wiring, computers, accelerator and shifter. Good Luck, TomC
I offer this: I have an 01 Eagle with a 60 series and HT741, 3:36 gear. Runs great. I get about 7 MPG towing a car in all conditions.
I also have a Revolution 42 LE(09) with a 400 HP ISL. It runs great and gets about 7MPG towing also! Yes the eagle has more torque and accelerates faster but not a big difference. Hills are not a big issue either. Just finished a 4000 mile trip to west coast and back with the S&S and had no power issues.
Take it for what its worth. I think the ISL deal is SMOKING - grab it before it is gone.
TomC, no way is the 3000MH transmission worth 10 grand and that is the model S&S uses behind the ISL 400 along with 4:63 rear gears a luxury he doesn't have with his Eagle and the drop box.
Eric would never be able to use 6th gear to get fuel mileage from that engine the 4:10 ratio if you can locate one and those are few and far between is the lowest he can go
I called Allison tech today with a few questions. He said the 3000mh is programable with one or two overdrives. That dosen't sound like a big issue. I also read somewhere that the world transmission can only be programed to work with a ddec III and up. That would eliminate the 11.1 detroit. He has three 60's 12.7l in wrecked trucks. He said he probably had one or two with less than 300k that he would have in the 3-4 thousand range. I don't know which version they are. He also has several 4000 allisons which is the corredt one for the 60. It is a lot longer than the 3000. I looked at the size and wgt. The ISL is much smaller and over 1000lbs lighter. I may jusy have to gussy up and go to camping world, and act very interested in a 40' coach with a 400 ISL. A good test drive will tell a lot. There is a 6% 4.5 mile grade less than 10 miles from them!!
Quote from: Ericbsc on August 23, 2010, 03:50:08 PM
I called Allison tech today with a few questions. He said the 3000mh is programable with one or two overdrives. That dosen't sound like a big issue. I also read somewhere that the world transmission can only be programed to work with a ddec III and up. That would eliminate the 11.1 detroit. He has three 60's 12.7l in wrecked trucks. He said he probably had one or two with less than 300k that he would have in the 3-4 thousand range. I don't know which version they are. He also has several 4000 allisons which is the corredt one for the 60. It is a lot longer than the 3000. I looked at the size and wgt. The ISL is much smaller and over 1000lbs lighter. I may jusy have to gussy up and go to camping world, and act very interested in a 40' coach with a 400 ISL. A good test drive will tell a lot. There is a 6% 4.5 mile grade less than 10 miles from them!!
yeah but I will bet they'll notice the engine and tranny missing as soon as it comes in on the wrecker! ;)
;D BK ;D
Eric, don't just tie your self into a Cummins ISL ton's of motorhomes had the C-9 Cat engine about the same hp rating with more torque
good luck
If Eric is using the typical 11R-24.5 that other Eagles are running, and with his 4.10 ratio, his speed and rpm would be- 1951rpm @ 60mph, 2114rpm @ 65mph in 4th gear, 1585rpm @ 65mph, 1705rpm @ 70mph, 1829rpm @ 75mph in 5th gear. And yes, 6th would not be attainable with the 4.1 gears. Remember though-both the World Transmission and the HT740 have just about the same gear ratios from 1st through 4th. Good Luck, TomC
P.S: DO NOT involve yourself with any Caterpillar truck/bus products. All of the factory sales reps for these products have been released from their jobs, and Caterpillar factory backing on their engines have just about gone to zero!
Quote from: TomC
P.S: DO NOT involve yourself with any Caterpillar truck/bus products. All of the factory sales reps for these products have been released from their jobs, and Caterpillar factory backing on their engines have just about gone to zero!
And when was the last time we had "factory backing" on our beloved 2 strokes?
Just because it's not a good idea for the everyday trucker who makes his living using these engines to use them, doesn't mean that there is no use for them in our "hobby". (that's what it is for most here isn't it?)
;D BK ;D
And yer right I wouldn't be having one in my "fleet" either, but my fleet is different than a private coach too!
BK, Cashmans in Vegas is still doing a booming business for truckers and buses with Cat engines guess someone forgot to tell her, I sure hope TomC informs us when he replaces his 3406 Cat with a ISL
Quote from: luvrbus on August 23, 2010, 04:49:19 PM
BK, Cashmans in Vegas is still doing a booming business for truckers and buses with Cat engines guess someone forgot to tell her, I sure hope TomC informs us when he replaces his 3406 Cat with a ISL
Clifford that's my point! CAT still has tons of support compared to 2 strokes, but if you listen to TomC they are dinosaurs!
;D BK ;D
not meaning to bash Tom after all if I sold NEW trucks for a living, I'd probably be the same way!
I haven't looked at the cat yet. I have a 242 cat skidsteer and have been less than impressed since new. It does have a perkins though. I just know this is a job I want to do once only!!! The old 8-71 is running fine as long as you don't let granny slow you down on a hill!! I have a 3:73 rear in my bus. I am doing app. 71-72 mph at 2100 rpm. I will need an overdrive tranny to run a four stroke at the proper rum for the best mileage.
There are a TON of companies making after market parts for 2 stroke engines, and MTU are still making certain 2 stroke engines for military use. You can still order electronics from Detroit and other companies
Cat on the other hand is the sole provider of electronics for their engines. I liked their engines up till 2007 where they tightened their own noose by using a different smog system then everyone else (sort of what we're seeing now with International engines based on MAN engines). If you can find any Cat engine older then 2007, then yes, I'd use it myself. But they're ACERT system was a dismal failure with many law suites pending against the company. Personally, would stay away from the 3126 or C7 because of the hydraulic injection system. C9's-there weren't very many made, but were good engines. 3176 stay away from with its' aluminum block/head spacer plate. C10, C12 great engines for buses! C11, C13 with twin turbos, stay away from. 3406B, C, E great engines. C15 with single turbo-great engine. Once again, stay away from the twin turbo'd C15. C16-a beast!
After running a 8V-92TA, 6V-92TA, and now my 8V-71TATAIC on my bus, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my Caterpillar 3406B mechanically injected jacket water aftercooled 400hp engine in my truck is the most reliable, low maintenance engine I've ever had-I drove it almost 700,000 miles. And it was a big determining factor why I'm converting my truck now. Since it has less than 200,000 miles on the last in frame and runs like a clock. Good Luck, TomC
Just noticed BK's post. Ya think they would actually notice the different sound of the old 8-71 when I brought it back!!! LOL
When I was talking to the allison tech I asked him about the wiring harness. He said I would need an allison shop manual, and an engine manual. They do not make engine specific harness according to him
You know if you rebuilt your 8V71 correctly to turbo specs added a cac and went with 3:36 gears you would forget about wanting the four-stroke.
Don
Man, TomC were do get not many C-9 made that engine is used in 15 or more pieces of Cat equipment loaders,dozers,excavators and more that engine is in use this very day, parts will always be around for Cat engines no problem to buy parts for 60 year old cat engine at a dealer.
I will agree with you about the 3406 the Cat 425 hp 3406 served me well over the years they would smoke like hell on take off but they would carry the load with no problems or breakdowns you could pull that engine down to 900 rpm and it would pick it up in the same gear
I realize that the C9 is a very popular and good engine for marine, generation, off road equipment, etc. I was just stating that as far as using them in trucks, they were a VERY expensive engine option. So not too many bought them. I installed the 350hp C9 in a Freightliner M2106 3 axle that is used between Portland, Or and Seattle, Wa with great success (mainly because it is relatively flat). Even my old 3406B is still being made as a 3406C model for generating. So if I were to blow my engine, could get either a factory rebuilt, or brand new long block. Good Luck, TomC
Went to Camping World yesterday to drive a revalution I think. They had the wiring harness apart!! Said it went crazy on a test drive and the customer refused to accept it? They said I could drive it but would not be sure I could get back, and the tow bill would be on me!!! Service thought someone drilled the harness somewhere. Anyway, the manager said he had driven one up the same grade that got me down to 18-20 mph. He said he was at 48 mph at the top and didn't gat a good start. The guy I looking at buying the engine from said I would probably need to add extra support for the wgt. of a series 60 in an 05 eagle. Anybody familiar with that?
Eric, nothing special for a 60 series in a Eagle raise the bed,FWIW some of the model 15 Eagles came from the factory with 60 series if you go that route I have a 15 manual that shows the 60 series in a Eagle be glad to lend it to you,also shows the Cummins and the Cat engines in Eagles ? why not go with 8v92 the 450 hp will get you 1425 lbs of torque and set right it will get you 7 mpg even better with a intercooler set up and that is a easy swap for a Eagle no gear changing use your 740 no electronic bs, no new motor mounts or cradle only a new exhaust system and a new air intake and afilter you will miss the sound of the duall pipes on the Eagle I did that was a sweet sound early in the morning going through a canyon, the guys we know don't do much better on fuel with 4 strokes in the Eagle only Boomer and that is because of his fan setup and 55 and 60 mph
good luck
Eric -
I'll bet that stick 'n staple at CW probably weighs a whole lot less than your Eagle, which is why it scooted up the hill faster - at least until it broke!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
He said it weighed app 41k. But then he wants to sell !! LOL
Thought about the 8-92 Have heard goot and bad. Good: power.
Bad: heat, and mileage. What is true I have no clue!!
Eric, I've heard the same thing about the 8v92TA, the heat problem was a major concern, when we built my 8V92TA, I used the new heads with larger passages for cooling and also changed the block for the same reason it had larger passages for cooling! Then I installed a brand new radiator core from Prevost! Is all of this going to work? I sure as heck hope so! About the horse power rating, we purposely didn't go for the 435 HP that was available, the idea there was fuel economy! The dyno sheets on my engine 365 HP, and torque was 1,242 lb. ft. at 1950 RPM. I know these guys keep saying 475 HP, I'm just telling you what a live dyno run at Jasper Engines produced! No guessing here! My friends at Penske/Jasper Racing were involved in this and decided that the best set up for my use was 365 actual horsepower! Also we used 9290 Injectors! I'm not a engine builder so I left it to my friends to help me out! I've used many of their engines they know what they are doing!
Muddog- the 365hp @ 1950rpm was commonly called the "Fuel Squeezer" model. When I bought my first truck in 1980 I had it set at 365hp @ 1950. It had the older 9A90 injectors. I kept it that way for a while, but like most truck drivers wanted more power. So they removed the shims from the governor to give a full 435hp @ 2,100rpm. You could feel a difference in power and the fuel mileage stayed about the same. If you were in a head wind, then yes you could burn more fuel. The best way to get better fuel mileage is gentle acceleration and no faster then 60mph. Good Luck, TomC