Reading some of the hype doing this would get you a net payback equal to the cost of the propane you burned. It would give you better MPG from the D because it promotes better/more complete combustion. Now propane has far less energy than D but it costs considerably less per gallon so wouldn't this be worth doing? Fuel tax comes to mind as a question.
What do the experts say? I think the answer might be in that I hear of nobody doing this.
Thanks,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on July 31, 2010, 08:26:07 PM
. . . .
What do the experts say? I think the answer might be in that I hear of nobody doing this.
Ya think?
Some have used it, they'll chime in.
The limiter seems to be oxygen.
You need it to burn, no matter if you are burning diesel or propane.
If there is black smoke, there's already more fuel than air to burn it in, adding another fuel won't change what the injectors squirt in there.
Adding a small "smog turbo" might be better use of funds, so that the negative effects of altitude may be reduced in a naturally aspirated engine?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
For many years, Diesels have been run with Propane, Natural Gas, Methane, Sewer Gas, etc, since all gases are flammable (need a flame or spark to ignite them). Whereas Diesel is combustible (needs heat to ignite it). Commonly called a dual fuel engine, Diesel fuel is used as a "spark plug" to fire off the flammable gas. Many use propane as a way to get additional horsepower out of the engine also. If still using Diesel fuel as the main fuel and just adding propane as an additional source of power, I would keep the propane addition to 10% of Diesel burn. Good Luck, TomC
What Tom Sez! We looked and studied this for possibel power for our old 4-71. (we had a engine swap done instead) It does add power and is used for climbing hills etc. As far as making economical sense it apparently doesent. Search the archives on both boards and you will get some answers,opinions and some real world experience and advice.
So what is a "smog turbo" ? and how would it be plumbed in?
Hi John,
A 2 stroke compresses the air from the turbo and blower and sends it deep into the engine block.
If you use propane , these "air" channels would be filled with a framable mixture of air and propane.
I would not do that to any 2 stroke I own. The chance of igniting the mixture when the air is pushed into the cylinder is too much for me. Sometimes there is unburned carbon still glowing in the cylinder from the last power stroke when the air is shot in. Think KABOOM
Frank
Quote from: DMoedave on August 01, 2010, 08:39:50 AM
What Tom Sez! We looked and studied this for possible power for our old 4-71. (we had a engine swap done instead) It does add power and is used for climbing hills etc. As far as making economical sense it apparently doesent. Search the archives on both boards and you will get some answers,opinions and some real world experience and advice.
I searched for subjects on "propane" and got a message "no posts found". That has to be bogus. Yours was sage advice, however. I often don't do that because I forget or because the stuff in the archives doesn't seem current or I suspect there might b a new crop of commenters. I think your post fits the later.
When I hear "that's not possible" or "really bad idea" or "never been done" I rarely feel the issue is closed. Particularly if I am looking at evidence that somebody is doing it with success. I value you answer highly....Studied the subject...... only technically feasible....makes no economic sense. Great answer, if it is out there.
I think someone that has tried to get more power out of a small engine is likely to have turned over every rock.
Thank you for your comment/answers. Hopefully it will turn up in the future on a search for the topic. The board and mods are superb in their function, however.
John
PS: If
ya think your appreciated...the answer is yes.
Quote from: Frank @ TX on August 01, 2010, 09:59:58 AM
Hi John,
A 2 stroke compresses the air from the turbo and blower and sends it deep into the engine block.
If you use propane , these "air" channels would be filled with a flammable mixture of air and propane.
I would not do that to any 2 stroke I own. The chance of igniting the mixture when the air is pushed into the cylinder is too much for me. Sometimes there is unburned carbon still glowing in the cylinder from the last power stroke when the air is shot in. Think KABOOM
Frank
Frank,
That was my first reaction way back when. Standby D emergency gens runs off nat gas, buses in this burg run of LNG and I think they are D engines at their heart also. The "propane " injection system is being sold by one outfit I read up on. So the question of "can it be done" has been answered. Are their additional issues on safety? I think you are right again. I think the core answer is "you don't get sufficient return on your investment".
Thanks for your answer of caution. Especially when blowing my fool head off is a possible outcome. Or another Knut that might read.
John
Same old thing,,,,the people with the LEAST knowledge and "never done it" are doing all the talking.>>>Dan
John,
I have looked into it but have not followed through. From what I got, it works much better with a turbo but may give some 7-10% boost without one. There are ways to do it cheaply, but I would not be looking for fuel economy as much as an on-demand power boost. I know that there are many that are pessimistic about it but have spoken to some that have done it, one was on an 8v71, that thought it was great. I would not consider the case closed until I have actually experimented a bit myself.
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on August 01, 2010, 11:18:39 AM
Same old thing,,,,the people with the LEAST knowledge and "never done it" are doing all the talking.>>>Dan
Dan,
I have sent you a PM on this post.
Thanks,
John
John, I used the search on the tab, upper left and got over 70 pages. You might try that.
I just typed in propane and that's what I got.
Paul
Now here is some news. Had I used the other search I could have saved my breath...mostly.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12898.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12898.0) has almost all the information as published by UtahClaimJumper and he has an operational system and seems to know where all the bodies are buried.
Clifford even mentions that he has a friend that uses the system and is well pleased with the additional power. Clifford is smart enuf that if he repeats a lie it is probably gospel. Was that clear?
Seems, in that thread at least, that nobody that has done it finds any fault. Don Fairchild even has he system on his pick-up and he gives his judgment call.
That thread is a year old so no wonder I forgot it. I am having trouble with what happened at breakfast.
Thanks all,
John
John,
I think that Utah's info is very relevant for us natural aspirated guys. It is a whole different game with turbo. I think that Don F. had said that he put it on his turbo diesel dually pickup to see what would happen and did find that it added noticeable horsepower. He doesn't use it though since he can spin the back wheels without it. Don likes seeing what he can get from an engine. He built one for his project eagle that had some amazing horsepower, but he is not sure how he would be able to keep it cool.
Asking how a propane system works or how to install one is how to promote discussion & gain knowledge.
But to start a thread in the way this one was . . . seems the intention was to promote division & animosity. (Oh look, it worked! ::) :o )
Also seems some delight in division & fanning the flames of controversy all under the guise of 'learning'.
But, that is only my opinion & as many know, ain't worth the time spent to read it. ;)
Concerning the viability of using propane injection on diesel engines -
Sure it 'works', but if it was commercially viable & economical, it would be standard equipment on ALL heavy equipment.
So, why don't more people use this/ these systems if they "work"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that its true benefits are usefull only in limited applications AND that different people approach things from different angles. These 'power alternatives' work best for a certain mindset (just like converting your own bus works better than buying a factory job for some). Some like the extra 'tinkering'. However, for most people, the added 'benefit' isn't worth the added 'cost' ($$, time, effort, etc).
You will also find it difficult to find a shop that will add propane injection to your bus & back it with a warranty. That alone is more than enough to deter most.
Over on the yahoo detroit diesel group, there was a lengthy discussion on this several years ago. There was at least one of them that unintentionally grenaded their 2-stroke with propane injection.
A 2-stroke has a very different intake system than a 4-stroke, which can lend itself to unkind results. Propane will not burn if it is too lean, the airbox explosion can only happen if the air/ fuel ratio is within certain limits. Don't misunderstand, the grenade scenario is unlikely, but definitely remains a possibility.
Usage is also similar to WVO in that you aren't using a "standard" fuel.
Adding propane to a diesel is similar to adding NOx to a car (similar, not same) in that you have a means of using extra fuel added to the engine for those situations when more power is needed.
Kyle,
In accord with board/forum policy, I have sent you a PM on this matter.
your post quote:
Asking how a propane system works or how to install one is how to promote discussion & gain knowledge.
But to start a thread in the way this one was . . . seems the intention was to promote division & animosity. (Oh look, it worked! Roll Eyes Shocked )
Also seems some delight in division & fanning the flames of controversy all under the guise of 'learning'.
But, that is only my opinion & as many know, ain't worth the time spent to read it. Wink
Thank you,
John
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 01, 2010, 04:30:56 PM
Concerning the viability of using propane injection on diesel engines -
Sure it 'works', but if it was commercially viable & economical, it would be standard equipment on ALL heavy equipment.
That seems a good point...on the surface of it. In my humility would concede that the Heavy Equipment operators/Mfrs might have motives and considerations that I am not aware of. Still, a good point.
So, why don't more people use this/ these systems if they "work"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that its true benefits are usefull only in limited applications AND that different people approach things from different angles. These 'power alternatives' work best for a certain mindset (just like converting your own bus works better than buying a factory job for some). Some like the extra 'tinkering'. However, for most people, the added 'benefit' isn't worth the added 'cost' ($$, time, effort, etc).
I don't think mind set determines the viability. Numbers get in the way of hunches or per pref every time. But I think I follow the gist of your comment and I am not at odds with it.
You will also find it difficult to find a shop that will add propane injection to your bus & back it with a warranty. That alone is more than enough to deter most.
The warranty angle doesn't hold for me. Absolutely not a single thing I do carries a warranty. I do look for them in others work when I can get it though, but it isn't the overriding factor for me.
Over on the yahoo detroit diesel group, there was a lengthy discussion on this several years ago. There was at least one of them that unintentionally grenaded their 2-stroke with propane injection.
A 2-stroke has a very different intake system than a 4-stroke, which can lend itself to unkind results. Propane will not burn if it is too lean, the airbox explosion can only happen if the air/ fuel ratio is within certain limits. Don't misunderstand, the grenade scenario is unlikely, but definitely remains a possibility.
Just knowing that is a possible outcome is a treasure of info all by itself. Food for thought..maybe...reason to do more research? Most certainly.
Usage is also similar to WVO in that you aren't using a "standard" fuel.
Adding propane to a diesel is similar to adding NOx to a car (similar, not same) in that you have a means of using extra fuel added to the engine for those situations when more power is needed
I think Don summed up your comments in this regard when he said "bottom line, propane injection is a toy". More power seems the only persistent motive so I guess the question is "Wanna Play?" You gotta get a YES out of a significant minority.
Thank you for these comments, Kyle
John
A smoke turbo is a turbocharger that is added to a non turbocharged engine. Typically it will only put out around 5psi, and you keep the same injectors. Then your performance will be the same at sea level and at high altitudes, where you would normally get lots of smoke. If you're going to the high Sierras, like over 5,000ft, then a smoke turbo is good.
On my 8V-71, since I had the two piece pistons with tight transit rings, we added a 12.7 Series 60 turbo with waste gate to keep the boost under 15psi (most turbo engines run in the 25psi range), only went to 75 injectors, added the air to air intercooler in front of the radiator, and installed the bypass valve on the blower. It is truly amazing the difference in performance. Fuel mileage is about the same, but with the better performance, and no more smoking at high altitudes, the fuel mileage of 5-6mpg is just fine by me. Good Luck, TomC
Propane injection for diesel engines has been done since the early 60's, at least. Based on personal knowledge of having seen the results of propane addition. Used to be called a 'topper'. As in you would top the hill. In the old days, pre turbo, when a 318 Detroit was king of the hill, the black smoke would pour out stack pulling a grade. Put the grade up high like Denver and the smoke got a lot worse.
So picture being about third in line pulling a big Rockies hill. when the guy in front of you suddenly has a clear stack and he pulls out and passes. That's when I learned about 'toppers' at the next truck stop.
Now as to application . Bully Dog used to make and install a system. Really useful of non turbo engines.
Theory of operation:propane gas at about 10% tends to increase fuel burn and lengthen the flame time. That leads to a more complete combustion.
George, left coast Sacramento area, run this system on his 4106. Worked well and reduced his heating problems on the big hills and his speed for higher.
Bill
Seems some of my previous post needs some explanation
Quote from: JohnEd on August 01, 2010, 05:29:02 PM
Kyle,
In accord with board/forum policy, I have sent you a PM on this matter.
John
john,
Since you advertised the PM here, I'll respond here (to let others see there is no hidden agenda), I have no problems other than, in your words, "muddled judgment" & "juvenile behavior".
My post was directed at all in an effort to remind the real goal here – heightened understanding & shared opinions.
I started with a suggestion concerning how to get the information desired without starting something undesired. Given recent 'developments', this seemed topical. It was followed by a simple observation of how your initial post could be interpreted (& was by some).
My apologies if you're disappointed & also to those who wasted the popcorn.
Looks like there is a new "sheriff" in town, who obviously needs to grow thicker skin to be active on a Rough and tumble board that I have been a member of, and a contributor to, for 15 years. I recently sold my 06 that has had a "propane mixing" system used on every trip for 13 years with no problems. ( The left coast guy was George Lawry, had a 903 Cummins with a Bullydog system, mine was an 8V71-A timed-N65 injectors NA. Hill climbing was fantastic with propane mixing) Goodbuy, no need for me to return.>>>Dan
Well, there is the authority! Archives and look for Jumper's posts. I can undrstand how he must feel. everytime someone asks about propane injction, folks with opinions jump in and stomp it out! Kinda sucks that we cant let the ones who have the experience share. Claim Jumper, hope you are still coaching, someday we are going to make it out West!
Well, Utah put us straight on to the most informative site for the propane issue. That would be: http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_Diesel_Propane_Injection_Kit_p/10800.htm (http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_Diesel_Propane_Injection_Kit_p/10800.htm) Thanks for that, Utah. And you reference to George Lawry is a good steer,as well.
$680 for the kit and we already have the tankage on board. I really have to wonder that your local fork lift repair shop can't glance at that video and hand you the parts for $100. I'll take that for action and get back. There is a forklift shop a mile from my home that I have done business with and they should help me with the procurement issues. Till then.
Thanks to all those that provided info and comment
I don't think I understand all that about thin skin....who left where what? I am though only mostly in public.
John