I've looked thru the manuals I have, but I can't seem to find the removal procedure.
I've looked at the engine/ transmission assembly & it isn't obvious as to where the access is for the bolts holding the flex plate to the torque converter.
The engine & trans are still on the cradle, but out of the bus.
THANKS!
Kyle,
On the engine side of the flywheel housing on the opposite side from the starter you will find a little access cover you can remove. Through this you can then remove the flexplate bolts.
I don't see one there. :(
Here are 3 pictures. The previous owner got frustrated & took a sledge hammer to the housing adapter in an effort to see what was needed & gave up before removing the transmission.
Oh, another thing, the engine is locked up - water got in Thur the air cleaner while it was still in the bus . . . . :(
Kyle, did you check for a "plug" on the opposite side as the damage? I thought on my 6v92 there was an access "portal" on the engine facing side of the flywheel housing.
Hey Brian,
No "plug" or "portal" to be found.
I'm considering using a hole saw since the adapter housing is already broken. . .
Removed
That it is. From the picture in the manual, it looks like there may be a dozen of them.
The question is how does one gain access for the purpose of removing them? Short of having to add holes? How did they bolt it up in the first place? Working thru the starter hole would require a special wrench to get the offset required (of course the bolts don't line up with the hole).
There should be a plug with a 1/2 inch square drive to remove it with right above the starter 1/2 inch bolts with a 3/4 head check both sides of the block sometimes it is on the opposite side
good luck
Hey Clifford,
Thanks for the suggestion, but there aren't any plugs. On the opposite side from the starter, there is an indention where I'd like a plug to be, so I'm guessing I'll have to make my own access plug with a hole saw.
While I'm asking, do you have any suggestions for turning the crank? The motor is stuck & I don't want to damage the starter ring gear. Is pulling the heads & removing the liners/ pistons & rods as an assembly a practical way to go? It is an old block with the large airbox covers. I took off a valve cover & the motor looks clean inside- no sludge.
Thanks again,
Kyle
When you said it was locked up I was also wondering how you would turn it over to access the bolts regardless of any opening. Can you get to the bolts through the starter hole? One idea also is with all the tranny bolts removed can you revolve the tranny seperate from the engine to get to any access holes even if you finish making your own? Just a thought Kyle. Later
So, the consensus is there is no magic trick to this - It is straight forward - Remove the flex plate bolts & unbolt the transmission. The fact that there is no direct access port for the flex plate bolts just means the guy that installed it didn't mind working thru the starter hole - He must have had a special wrench. Looks like I'll make one for myself. 8)
But first, I have to disassemble the engine & get to the point I can rotate the crank. . . .
Buying cheap has it's pro's & con's. ;D 8)
Always wanted to tear into a 2 stroke to see what makes 'em tick - without worry about having to put it back together. ::)
I know on car automatics, it is the flex plate that holds the torque converter in place-meaning, if you remove the bell housing bolts, you can remove the transmission from the engine, but the torque converter will stay behind since it is on splines. Now, as to the big Allison transmission doing this-maybe someone can clarify if this trick could work. Good Luck, TomC
I was going to say the same thing as TomC - any automatic I've re and re'd the torque converter was bolted to the flex plate and input shaft was splined to it. So I dug out my 5C manual and it says the torque converter is piloted on the crank end and bolted to the flex plate from the engine side of the flex plate, opposite to the transmission. The torque converter really seems to be an integral part of the gearbox.
Brian
From my flipping thru the manual, I got the impression the torque converter is bolted to the transmission. NOTE - I did not read this section as I am not the least bit interested in taking the transmission apart, I already have enough loose parts lying around ::).
From what I saw, to remove the torque converter from the transmission, you have to first remove the bolts holding the engine side converter half from the transmission side half, then you can separate the halves to gain access to the big nut holding the transmission side half to the input shaft.
Even if the TC slipped out of the transmission as it does on cars, I'd still have to access the bolts to remove the tc from the flex plate. I sort of need the torque converter & flex plate so I can put this transmission in my bus. ;D
If this were mine, I'd be pulling the kits out the top and getting the crank to spin, and removing those bolts through a hole that appeared in the flywheel housing when my 6 lb sledge accidentally repeatedly fell on it from a great height. Presumably the flywheel housing is now a scrap part due to the prior damage on the starter mount. If it is cast iron it should create a hole pretty easily. From my manual you need the flex plate and the crank adaptor intact and in good shape, so don't over-flex the flex plate. The ring gear is part of the torque converter.
You don't even need to remove the kits, just get them high enough that the rods clear the crank. This presumes you can get at the bottom of the engine...
Brian
Brian,
That is the current plan - remove the top of the motor & pull the kits up.
The story is that water got in the motor & that is why it is stuck - If the corrosion is too bad, the liners may not want to come out & I may have to get creative.
These engines look big inside the bus - they are HUGE when you are contemplating turning them upside down to work on 'em. :o
A friend sent me this picture of the 8V71 in his Scenicruiser. It has the access plug that mine doesn't.
Apparently, when the automatic was installed it his bus, the bell housing was changed too.
Oops, I didn't use the right picture. I meant to include the arrow showing the access plug.
I'm thinking pull the heads off to get at the pistons and make it a little lighter, hook a chain the the top, and roll it over with your 4X4... Add a roll limiting chain so once it's over it stays where it's put. If anything still has fluid in it it will make a mess... I'd get a lift on the trans and pull it with the whole mess upside down. Use a big hammer on the rods should shift the kits down, or just get a torch in there and cut off the rods - all you need is the crank to spin if you are tossing the engine as scrap anyway.
Brings back memories - back when I was into Mini's - the little Austin kind - we could pull a power train in well less than 30 minutes, but we did it "rough" - copious use of the flame wrench and bolt cutters...and a pole and chain with a guy on either end OR we just left the power pack on the ground and flipped the body off, still took two guys... ;D
Brian
Removed
I hope to start demolition disassembly this weekend. ;D
My biggest concern for corrossion is from the face it has been sitting for so long. . . outside . . . . with minimal to no cover.
I'll start with removing the blower & see how it progresses from there. I'd like nothing more than to do this with the engine still in the cradle where it isn't likely to move when I don't want it to. . . . :o
I can't afford a long brass rod ;) . . . . I'll have to use something else to apply the trauma. This may be more therapeutic than I'd thought. 8)
"John Henry driving
on the right side
That steam drill driving
on the left
Says, "Fore I let your
steam drill beat me down
I'm gonna hammer
myself to death, Lord, Lord,
I'll hammer my fool self to death"
John Henry was a hammerin' man, just like you this weekend! ;D
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Quote from: bevans6 on July 12, 2010, 12:16:01 PM
John Henry was a hammerin' man, just like you this weekend! ;D
I'm not a huge fan of swinging a hammer. (my aim isn't so good & my fingers seem to be what attracts the most intrest of the hammer. ::) )
However, I do have a large (20+ ton) port-a-power with a good sized chain (the rod used to make the links is 5/8" dia). If a few taps don't impress it, I'm sure that will. 8) :D
Come to think of it, isn't the blower a positive displacement - so how likely is it that water would have gotten past it?
It's looking like I will be having an interesting weekend.
If only it had came out of an Eagle coach with propane this would have been so much easier!! ;D ;D Just kiddin guys!!!!! ;)
Kyle, pull the injectors and soak with parts blaster. Have you checked the bottom of the bell housing for access that particular bell housing was used for the wet torque converter that ran in oil there is access some place and it should be opposite the starter side could have a soft plug.
good luck
Crap, wish I'd thought about the penetrating oil through the injector holes. I'll do that tomorrow & give the liquid mechanic time to work a little magic. ;D
Nope, not a single access hole in line with the tc bolts. I can reach 'em thru the starter, but that will be a short throw for the wrench. the hole in the bottom is too small & out of position to be of any use either.
I'll probably just use a hole saw to make a better/ more convenient hole - that adapter is headed for scrap anyways.
Kyle wish i'd read this sooner!
I'm with Clifford we had 6V92 that locked up due to a cracked head dumping a lot of water in one side all 3 cylinders. I due what Clifford just said and pulled all six injectors, the inspection covers and used a big honk'n 1" ratchet with a cheater bar (Dallas & Cody have seen it and the new curve of the handle) to turn the engine over. Of course we had the access plug! (oh yeah, I forgot to use penetrating oil too! ;))
If I were you (and of course I'm not!) I would tell Seth "here's a 10 lb sledge and in my pocket is a $20 if you can break me a hole right here!"
Of course if that goes over as well as offering him $20 to recover my phone then I'd break out the smoke wrench and "blow" a hole in it!
;D BK ;D
I tend to do more harm than good with a smoke wrench - The oddest things happen in addition to the expected mayhem. So, I'll stick with a hole saw & a right angle drill so as to minimize the chance of damaging the flex plate.
I took the inspection covers off the starter side & the one cylinder I could see into looked like it had some light surface rust issues. No suprise there since it has sat outside so long.
I need to clear out space to put this in the shop so I can proceed.
Maybe if I get the big grinder & a stack of cutoff disks out & ready to use, the engine will surrender ? ? ? One can hope. ;D
I am thinking a nice 32oz Ball Peen Hammer and some Liquid Nitrogen might make some well placed holes in cast Iron. ;)
Actually a plasma cutter works well on cast. A torch does not, in fact not at all. Just beware that the plasma cutter will also cut things deeper than the part you want cut!
I ain't got neither, but I do got a hole saw & a right angle hole hawg drill. ;D
Found a manual today on the allison site that explains the proceedure for installing/ removing this transmission. ;D
Yes, the crankshaft has to rotate relative to the bellhousing. :o
Quote from: kyle4501
I ain't got neither, but I do got a hole saw & a right angle hole hawg drill. ;D
Found a manual today on the allison site that explains the proceedure for installing/ removing this transmission. ;D
Yes, the crankshaft has to rotate relative to the bellhousing. :o
That will have 2b 1 Bad... hole saw!
Duh! (big red truck! ;))
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on July 14, 2010, 09:47:19 PM
That will have 2b 1 Bad... hole saw!
Duh! (big red truck! ;))
BK, Might this explain your high maintenance costs? ? ?
;D ::) ??? :o ;D
Success!
A friend came over this afternoon to help. ( He remembers working on the Scenicruisers when they still had the twin 4-71s in em! )
When we took the the heads off, we found the problem - RUST & lots of it! We were able to use a prybar against the ring gear to turn the crank - It pushed out 3 liners as the pistons rose in those cylinders. We soon learned if the piston pushed up a liner, we'd need to drive the liner back down if we didn't want the motor stuck again. We used a block of wood & a bfh to drive the liner back down & then continued to rotate the crank as needed to access the flex plate to torque converter bolts. Since the bellhousing adapter was already broken, I enlarged the hole to enable a few clicks of ratchet indexing. Amazing how easy it was to break the cast iron after a little bit of prep work with a cut off wheel. ;D
The bolts all seemed to be properly torqued & as far as the transmission was concerned, they all came out very easily - no rust or corrosion - YEA! 8) ;D
That transmission is HEAVY! I'm glad I made a gantry crane, sure came in handy today!
BTW, the heads aren't that heave when a chain hoist is used. ;D
Now to find the 8V92 to go in front of it & to clean & prepare the cradle for installation in the lucky bus. 8)
Head west young man I have a rebuild able complete 8v92 yours free I need it gone you will need the center for the flex plate not the complete plate the one off the 71 won't work cost about 2 grand in parts for the rebuild comes with 2 different bell housings your choice.
good luck
That's a generous offer. ;D
Can you PM me the address so I can look into the logistics.
Thanks!
I see a road trip in our future Kyle!
Wonder if they can load me back from AZ with something not sealed? ;D
Jack
Clifford, how hard/easy to put it on a trailer? (Truck trailer.)
I would guess the motor to weigh about 3,000 lbs?????
Jack
PS...where are you located Clifford?
jackhartjr@aol.com
Guys I am off I 40 at Needles Ca 5 miles north on Az 95 towards Bullhead between mile marker 229 and 230 not a good place for summer time travel 120* here today
good luck
Hi Clifford, can we get it on the rear of a trailer?
Thanks
Jack
Sure can Jack
I've driven further for parts before, but not much. ;D
Jack, call me Sunday afternoon when convenient.
Clifford, how soon does it need to be gone.
Wish I had more vacation, I'd like to take some time to do this trip right. 8)
Kyle I would like for all 4 engine to be gone before the 1st of the year 2 8v92, 1 6v92 and 1 8v71 we will be gone till the middle of Sept to hell with this heat.If you could take 3 days here I would help you build it the heads have been reworked the guy tried to rebuild it his self and drove the wrist pin seals in with a socket and hammer and never did a vacuum test on the seals and they don't last long when you do it that way
good luck
Hey Clifford , It's nice up here in Montana and if you go to Idaho come by the house in mies city and I'll buy you and Sonja dinner and put u up ;D
Oh man, Now what? I need to do some major shuffling of the schedule, but that rebuild assistance offer sounds like a worthy vacation! ;D
October might be a good time if I can make it back intime for the non-rally. . . ;D
Andy, we are going to Mexico Mon and Tue for the rest of her dental work from there we are headed Northwest so we will see you soon ? what dates are the free fishing in MT did I miss it
good luck
Heck Clifford if that all it takes to get you here I'll buy you a fishin licence lol Eileen said that the free days have past
Hey Clifford,
I sent you a message . . . .
Have a nice vacation from the heat!