I have been thinking about making a 400 amp DC powerplant. There are new surplus Yanmar 2 cylinder 13.4HP engines for a little over $700
Has anyone on the forum built a DC powerplant?
I haven't ::)but glad to see someone else thinking outside box ;D what would you power with it?
I have never built one but they must work every snowbird in Quartzsite has one from 35 amps up with all different type engines from the knockoff Honda to small diesels
good luck
Check out www.amplepower.com (http://www.amplepower.com) for their unit to perhaps get some ideas.
Chuck
Kevin,
I have not done this, because I already had a giant 15kW generator that came with the bus. However, if I was doing a bus from scratch again, I would do a DC generator (and two inverters, to keep AC redundancy).
I don't know what you plan to use for a generator head, but my thought would be an oil-cooled 50DN, with an external oil cooler between the oil pump and the alternator. These are 6.5kW alternators. You should be able to run one of these with a 12-bhp motor, geared to drive the alternator around 5,000 rpm.
The single biggest recommendation I can give you is to use a three-stage regulator. Models are available from Balmar and Ample Power, among others.
Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I too had that idea and have a chinese one syl engine and a 200 amp alt but not together yet. just liike all others it figures to use the inverter for AC and just charge with the gen. Jerry
I think Lin had a 50DN for sale.
Here is a link to the new Yanmar http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1684&catname=engines (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1684&catname=engines)
Sean I have a spare belt driven 50DN.. I was thinking about picking up 2each 24 volt/200 amp alternators. I'll keep my larger Powertech genset as a standby unit, I really don't load it up enough to justify the 20KW. I hate watching the fuel gauge drop.
Sean, Aside from starting the generator, would a battery be involved in your configuration?
Kenny
Sean, one problem with the 50DN is>> you need a free oil return. One would have to mount the alternator higher than the top of the engine oil level. The oil return must not have any restrictions. It's similar to the problems we have with turbochargers. So many folks replace the turbo but don't hot tank or install a new drain tube. It's filled with sludge and coke.
That's the perfect motor to run the 50DN. Just the right HP, and you'd only need 1.5:1 on the pulleys.
That would give you 270 amps at ~28 volts. I'm not sure the 13.5 HP would give you all 400 amps if you tried to run two 200-amp belt drives. On the plus side, though, you could mount them diametrically opposed around the crank pulley, thus unloading the end bearing. And I think you can get the 200-amp units as air-cooled models.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Zeroclearance on June 08, 2010, 12:22:41 PM
Sean, one problem with the 50DN is>> you need a free oil return. One would have to mount the alternator higher than the top of the engine oil level. ...
Very true, so you would need to mount it above the sump and plumb it in somehow, or, alternatively, you can just make a whole separate "cooling system" for the alternator, with its own small sump, electric oil pump, and air-to-oil cooler.
As you know, the free oil return issue also dictates the mounting orientation.
Still, oil cooling tends to perform better than air cooling on these large alternator heads. FWIW. And, you already have it...
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
This topic has come up before:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=8794.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=8794.0)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3163.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3163.0)
If you use an all-electric rig, this may be a solution for you, and even then the idea of a Auxiliary "black start" power plant is interesting (on a 24V rig this can open the possibility of charging and self-jumping the prime-mover).
If you are planning on running a second alternator instead of running a single alternator with two overspeed clutches, and it is intended to charge the same loads as an alternator on the prime mover, remember you will need to modify the regulation a bit. Balmar has a special device called the "CenterFielder (http://www.balmar.net/page21-centerfielder.html)" which does this, but you can make one for peanuts with cube relays yourself too if you have the right circuit.
While you're in there making your own power plant, think about water heating (using the coolant from the genny), and also perhaps charging your chassis air system... You'll get more bang for your buck for every gallon of fuel you burn that way.
-Tim
The nice thing about this Yanmar engine is that the torque curve PEAKS at 2400 to 2500 RPM's.. That's where I would size my pulleys to get the desired max alternator sweet spot. If I could run the engine at 2500 RPM's I would be thrilled to get .5 or .6 gallon burn per hour. Even with a 50 DN mounted side by side with a belt driven pulley I think that I could run a 2nd 100 amp alternator as a spare..
The footprint of this power plant woud be small. Guys have removed the fan to pull less draw from the engine and used remote mounted Honda radiators with 12v auto style fans with temperature control fan switches/relays. I seen one guy looping the circuit into a Marine water heater first..
The idea is to run make as much "DC" amperage/wattage while not moving down the road with as little fuel burn as possible.
Tim, for my bus I have 2 Trace 4024's running two seperate battery banks and I'm all electric. If you look at my avatar my bus is BLACK.. 5 Tons of A/C cools the bus. Right now I have installed a 50DN on my series 60, this runs with the factory installed Bosch T1 and a factory installed 12V Leece/Neville.
Tim thanks for the links. With my current systems my 2 battery banks are seperate from my engine/start circuit.
What will be the final cost?
I love this idea! I have been trying to decide how to do my OTR AC system, as you all know, and I was really kind of irritated that I had to have two different AC power sources - generator and inverter. This would let me run OTR with a DN-50 driven by the bus engine, and have a second DN-50 that could be the generator.
There are air cooled DN-50 kits available, or air cooled DN-50's, rated 270 amps.
Brian
Quote from: Kenny on June 08, 2010, 12:22:14 PM
Sean, Aside from starting the generator, would a battery be involved in your configuration?
Sorry, just realized this was addressed to me.
Yes -- if you use an automotive-style alternator, there must be at least a small battery (or maybe a large capacitor) in the circuit, otherwise there is a strong possibility of damaging the alternator -- see my hotly contested remarks in the other thread.
However, I am assuming the design intent here is actually to achieve battery charging anyway, so presumably there will be a fairly large bank involved. This is really what this type of DC solution is best at -- recharging large battery banks. For example, my AC-powered battery charger can put at most 150 amps into the batteries, no matter how big my generator or shore power is. By contrast, a 50DN can put 270 amps into them, charging at nearly twice the rate. Coupled with a properly rated engine, this is the most efficient engine-driven charging you can get, eliminating not only the limits but also the losses involved in first generating AC and then converting it to DC.
Quote from: Tim Strommen on June 08, 2010, 12:35:45 PM
If you are planning on running a second alternator ... you will need to modify the regulation a bit. Balmar has a special device called the "CenterFielder (http://www.balmar.net/page21-centerfielder.html)" which does this, but you can make one for peanuts with cube relays yourself too if you have the right circuit.
You're right, and I should have mentioned that when discussing pros and cons earlier. Separate regulators (even one-wires) will work, but will not be optimally efficient, and one alternator will always be doing more work than the other (and thus get more wear and tear).
Several companies make multi-alternator regulators besides Balmar, including Ample Power and Xantrex.
Quote
While you're in there making your own power plant, think about water heating (using the coolant from the genny) ...
I would be careful with this one. Being a belt and suspenders kind of guy, I am leery of any system that can disable all the prime movers on board at the same time. Ideally I would suggest not only separate cooling systems, but also separate fuel supplies for the generator and the main engine. This way, if you get stuck in the mud a hundred miles from help, you can generate power no matter what, even if one engine goes down.
So to implement what you suggest, I recommend using a heat exchanger to transfer waste heat from each engine to a separate hydronic loop for domestic heat and hot water.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Remember this idea of using a 50DN is only going to get you 24vdc. You will then need Inverters to run any AC devices including air conditioning. Inverters aren't cheap.
Kenny
James my target is around $1000.00.. I have seen these alternators on Ebay, but I don't get the warm feeling about them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290331146760&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290331146760&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
I was going to purchase a used Kubota with 572 hours on it for $485.00, but with the new Yanmar Surplus engine, I will pay the extra to have a new engine. I am trying to score my alternators, but can fall back to my spare belt driven 50DN.. That is proven power.. The oil scavenge system will require a higher mounting bracket.
Brian, the air-cooled kit is around $850 my cost.
Sean, would your views change if you ran the HOT coolant out of the engine into a marine hot water heater with the coolant loop designed for this? And them pass the loop into a temperature controlled radiator fan system.
Kenny, I mentioned earlier that I have 2 SW4024's.. DC power is a choice. I want to invest in Solar panels, but this is a nice cheap addition.
I'm assuming (dangerous word) that the engine is water cooled and runs at a fairly high rpm level. Using the proper radiator and drive pullies will solve these problems.
Vibration? Possibly curable through proper rubber mounts and noise insulation. The electronic interface requirements I have no idea upon. Dunno fur sures.
Designing and fabricating the proper inclosure (fire, sound, mounts) should be straight forward. Might be best to have a dedicated fuel tank toos.
What is the durability/warranty of the Yahmar mill? Be careful here. Hear that lots of look-a-likes are coming out of China or India that don't work/last soss good.
Is there a alternative? We toyed with an BIG alternator running off the tranny's top PTO (RTO 910 Roadranger) running thru a good regulator running the roof A/Cs...
...while running down the road thus saving having to use the main APU. Just an alternate idea that won't work sitting under some trees somewhere parked. HB of CJ (old coot) now.....bussless :( :( :(
HB, the rated RPM max HP is around 3600 RPM's but that isn't where peak torque is.. I would run it lower at 2400-2500 RPM's. If you look at the link that I provided the unit does have a nice engine mounted muffler.
Yes there are clones made from China but this is the real deal Yanmar. Yanmar make a very good small diesel. Infact John Deere uses them in there small tractors from 12HP to 60HP.
Everything is going to be belt driven. I'm going to use 6 or 8 rib serpentine belt with a tensioner. On could also have a idler pully added for around $26.00 to stabilize the belt.
I have thought similar to what you mentioned with the addition of a small fuel tank.
Quote from: Zeroclearance on June 08, 2010, 12:45:41 PMTim, for my bus I have 2 Trace 4024's running two separate battery banks and I'm all electric. If you look at my avatar my bus is BLACK.. 5 Tons of A/C cools the bus. Right now I have installed a 50DN on my series 60, this runs with the factory installed Bosch T1 and a factory installed 12V Leece/Neville.
Yeah, I saw the black bus – sexy, sleek, mysterious... Prevost H3-45?
For A/C, if you're going to have the genny running, why not use a Red-Dot A/C (http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_index.html) with the compressor spun by the crank on the small genny? This will be more efficient, since you won't be converting energy after combustion from mechanical-to-electrical(DC)-to-chemical-to-electrical(DC)-to-electrical(AC)-to-mechanical. Nick B. may be able to chime in here - I think a roof air can be relatively easily modified to utilize a second/third compressor, and an automotive AC compressor can easily be controlled by a remote relay (it turns on/off the clutch, just like in a car).
Quote from: Sean on June 08, 2010, 01:27:07 PMQuote from: Tim Strommen on June 08, 2010, 12:35:45 PMWhile you're in there making your own power plant, think about water heating (using the coolant from the genny) ...
I would be careful with this one. Being a belt and suspenders kind of guy, I am leery of any system that can disable all the prime movers on board at the same time. Ideally I would suggest not only separate cooling systems, but also separate fuel supplies for the generator and the main engine. This way, if you get stuck in the mud a hundred miles from help, you can generate power no matter what, even if one engine goes down.
So to implement what you suggest, I recommend using a heat exchanger to transfer waste heat from each engine to a separate hydronic loop for domestic heat and hot water.
I agree with Sean, and in fact. you'll find we agree on most things. I'd offer as a rule of thumb, always use a heat exchanger between major cooling/heating systems to prevent total loss of collant. For things like generating domestic hot water, I also suggest using a marine type water heater that has a double walled heat exchanger loop for added safety should there be a leak.
If you do the additional Air system charging and A/C, make sure the whole thing is set up as a "system", with proper check valves and sequencing – for instance, you don't want a secondary air compressor to bypass the air dryer...
Safety should be the top bullet point on your system, with reliability being second, then parts avialability, then functionality, etc...
-Tim
No roof airs are planned. Yes, I have thought about the RedDot systems.. That would be the logical route. There are some night heavy duty compact compressor out there. I don't know the HP draws vs RPM. A 200amp 24 volt Leese alternator and 5 ton automotive style A/C compressor would most likely max out his engine.
OK, as long as we are playing with this concept, consider that a 24 Volt DC generator makes a great welder! A 400 amp unit could sure burn some rod. I still have my Popular Mechanics article (well over 40 years old) that tells how to build an engine driven welder using surplus aircraft generators.
Someone mentioned aux. air supply. I have brought up the thought of adding a York type AC compressor to my generator as an air compressor. That is a very popular project for the off-road folks. For more information on that concept look here: http://www.kilbyenterprises.com/compressors.htm (http://www.kilbyenterprises.com/compressors.htm)
Also, a couple of you seemed to touch on engine bearing loading. I suspect that the crank and bearings are not designed for heavy side loading. You could minimize the impact of this loading by using as large of a belt pulley on the crank as possible, and using a spring loaded idler in the belt drive. Without going in to a lot of detail, the spring loaded idler makes the tension in the drive proportional to the power being transmitted. That way, you do not need to tension the belt for the max HP. Indeed, a very light spring force on an idler system can transmit huge amounts of power. Spring loaded idlers are a belt's best friend.
Jim
Here read this Old post =
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4150.msg38213#msg38213 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4150.msg38213#msg38213)
;D
Quote from: Zeroclearance on June 08, 2010, 01:34:51 PM
Sean, would your views change if you ran the HOT coolant out of the engine into a marine hot water heater with the coolant loop designed for this?
Sorry, been off line for a few hours, driving. I think this has been answered but let me say that, yes, you should use a marine water heater, with, as Tim suggests, the now-standard (and mandatory) double-wall exchanger. But I would still recommend using a heat exchanger and a separate hydronic loop to do this. Among other things, it will allow you to heat the hydronic loop from other sources, such as yet another heat exchanger from the main engine (and we actually generate most of our domestic heat and hot water this way, so don't underestimate the value of this), and/or a diesel-fired boiler such as a Webasto or Espar.
Quote from: Tim Strommen on June 08, 2010, 02:04:08 PM
I agree with Sean, and in fact. you'll find we agree on most things.
Thank goodness
someone does. I was beginning to think I was starting to lose it...
Quote from: Kenny on June 08, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Remember this idea of using a 50DN is only going to get you 24vdc. You will then need Inverters to run any AC devices including air conditioning. Inverters aren't cheap.
Of course, this is where the thread started, and I see Kevin has already answered you. But for those following along, this is a major topic that I cover lightly in my electrical seminars and more heavily in the bus conversion workshop (should we ever do one of those).
Simply put, if you live in your rig full-time and spend most of that time, or even a majority of it, away from the power pole, then using this method is far and away cheaper in the long run than a 120-VAC generator and no inverter.
I can go into a line-by-line breakdown of why this is true, but this is probably not the thread for it. Perhaps it is a subject I can cover in a future BCM article. In a nutshell, though, the reasoning is that the more actually drawn watts a generator is producing, the more cost-efficient that generator's operation will be. With a DC generator feeding a large battery bank, every watt the generator is capable of producing is being used 80% of the time, and the other 20% it will be averaging about half load or so.
So the pay-back on the generator itself is much faster, and easily makes up for the cost of inverters. The big cost item in this scheme, BTW, is actually batteries, which do get "used up" in the process and need to be replaced periodically, and figuring that part of the equation is actually where the math gets harder.
For rigs that are only used occasionally, such as weekend trips or the occasional week or two of camping, it's probably cheaper just to run a generator whenever you need 120VAC. Where the balance point is, as they say, is left as an exercise for the reader.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Bill Glenn had an wvo fired set up in his bus and i always wanted to check it out more. I believe he had automotive a/c compressor running on his unit also for down the road air conditioning. Here on Long Island is a shop Sailon Electric that does incredible things for the ambulance and firetrucks that need lots of dc and or ac power at idle. Paul and his dad are amazing. So are Yanmar engines, but the older i lung units could shake rattle and roll. I was thinking long and hard about an APU truck unit for awhile for the driver air and heat etc. Good postings
I don't like two cylinder engines since they are basically a 4 cylinder with two cylinders lopped off. They are not even firing. Try looking for a small 3 cylinder-much smoother and quieter.
Instead of the giant 50DN (100lbs worth), look for the new Delco 270 amp alternator that is air cooled. You could run two since you're not worrying about synchronizing the two since it is DC power. Then you'd have a bit of redundancy with two smaller instead of one big alternator. Good Luck, TomC
Tom it's difficult to find a 500cc 3 cylinder diesel engine. Less displacement will equal less fuel burn.
I have been looking at the Sanden 510 A/C compressor. I'm trying to find the HP loss that is required to turn it.
The old GM A6 sucked up 8HP.
Well today I pulled the trigger on the New Neece/Leville 24 volt 200 amp alternator. I should have it in my hands tomorrow. Here are the specs.
http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=25039&item=A0014964PA&product=ALTERNATOR (http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=25039&item=A0014964PA&product=ALTERNATOR)
There are 10 each Surplus units available. If interested you can email me for the details.
Kevin, that's a one-wire alternator.
If you put two of these charging one bank, they might tend to fight each other. You should monitor the performance once you get it going to see how they do.
One way to handle this would be to let both alternators charge when the bank is fully depleted, but when the acceptance rate drops below 200 amps, shut one of them down. Without a clutch or some other mechanism to stop it from spinning, the safe way to disconnect from the batteries would be with a make-before-break double-throw relay that can connect a load, such as a lamp or fan, to the output. Switching which alternator gets shut down periodically will keep the workloads even.
If you are not worried about the warranty, you could try putting a relay in the field connection from the internal regulator, but from the service manual it does not look easy to get to.
Alternatively, you could break the battery bank into two parts, having each alternator charge half, then combine the outputs of the banks using high-power diodes. You'd give up .7 of a volt on output, but for a 24-volt system that should not be a big deal.
Depending on the regulators, though, it might work fine as-is. You might give Prestolite a call and ask for their recommendation.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, Thanks for the input. The plan is for a 8 battery bank. Per your recommendations each alternator could power up 4 batteries. How large of a diode would you spec out. I have a old Pioneer stereo amp that I could rob the massive heat sink from.
Quote from: Zeroclearance on June 09, 2010, 07:08:17 PM
The plan is for a 8 battery bank. Per your recommendations each alternator could power up 4 batteries. How large of a diode would you spec out.
I would first see whether it all "just works" with both alternators connected to one bank; it would be better to keep them together if possible.
That said, if you need to split them, the power rating of the diodes will depend on your max draw. Make sure you fuse the outputs at no larger than what the diodes can support. These things can get pretty big; for every 100 amps of current the diode will be dissipating 70 watts of power.
You'll find diodes this size, complete with heat sink, in a "battery isolator." Those are available in ratings up to 500 amps or so. Unfortunately, the diodes will be "backwards," intended to direct one input to two outputs rather than the other way around.
You could do surgery on an isolator, reversing the diodes, although many isolators are potted, making that difficult if not impossible.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Ahoy, BusFolk,
If I were doing my genset from a 'cold start, I would absolutely do a DC system as variously discussed above. (I have a 12KW A/C plant now).
Question ---? Will those smaller high rated alternators survive at serious continuous full load?
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Bob,
Each alternator is different. You need to check with the manufacturer to see what the rating is for continuous output, which may be different from the nameplate rating or "maximum" output.
The enemy of all alternators is heat, so keeping the cooling within specs is critical. Alternators meant to be installed in an open engine bay with good air flow will not do well if cooped up in a generator enclosure, unless you find a way to get air to them.
This is one reason I favor the oil-cooled units. The diodes are actually immersed in the oil and the cooling is much less variable.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Bob, we know that a 50DN will do the job. These new alternators are designed for emergency rescue vehicles. If I can burn 1/2 gallon of fuel and get 11KW out of this project I will be "happy" I would be happy with 8KW.. We will see how long these alternators last. I won't rip out my Powertech. It will be left installed as a backup unit.
You might need more Horsepower then you think. The Kubota D722-E3B is their smallest 3 cylinder Diesel. Even though it is rated for 3,600rpm, looking at the fuel curve, 2,400rpm is the lowest (most efficient) speed to run the engine. At that speed it puts out 11kw or 14.5hp. If you use your 200amp L/N alternator at 28volts, that's 5600 watts of power. If you use two that's 11,200watts, or 11.2kw. So you see using a 11kw engine (rare is the time those alternators will be putting out full power) is not too much power. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, Thanks for posting a update with the Kubota info. I have no problem with the Kubota's.. I have owned many in the past. My present Powertech is Kubota powered. The Yanmar that I have spec'd out is extremely well built. It has a extended capacity oil pan. It also weighs 100 pounds heavier that the Kubota. This unit has thicker castings.
As far as power output. I brief search on google, has shown this Yanmar driving 10KW marine gensets at full power. The nice thing about alternators is you can throttle them back to vary the output. Heat is a enemy, but again the Leece 4964 alternators are spec'd out for school bus and emergency applications.
Folks right now I am at $1,080.00 this includes the NEW engine and 2 Leece 24v 200 amp alternators.
I have a call into Leece about there external regulator kit.
Quote from: Zeroclearance on June 10, 2010, 08:59:34 AM
...
I have a call into Leece about there external regulator kit.
I did not see that option in the specs. If these can be externally regulated, that's definitely the way to go. Then you can get a dual-alternator, three-stage regulator from Ample Power, Balmar, or Xantrex, and get not only the dual-alternator coordination, but better charge profiles as well. It'll add some to your total, though.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
A little update> I called Leece this morning and within 2 rings the Tech answered the phone. He knew exactly what I wanted to do. He asked if he could call me back with part numbers and some new info for the new MCI conversion dual alternator kits.. Within 15 minutes Mark called me back with part numbers >> they are as follow..
Remote regulator kit part# 104356 "S" $39.98
Field plate kit part # 100265 "S" $23.38
He mentioned the new multi power alternator kit 4974PA $1,332.00 Each>> I'll pass....
With this good news I can look at the 3 stage regulator packages..
Because of the massive heat under the hoods of new trucks, all the alternator companies have come out with heat resistant alternators capable of running in close to 200 degree heat. Also, the best way to regulate the alternator is with a remote sensing regulator-the sensor is from the batteries, not the output from the alternator. You get much better voltage regulation at the batteries this way. Good Luck, TomC
can you explain what engine you are choosing for this, why, and how to determine what horsepower profile is needed? Is the engine going to be governed to run at a certain rpm under varying load, and how?
brian
You are going to do plans, pictures, drawings, etc. so us newbies could consider copying right? Please ;)
Brian, I posted the link to the Yanmar 2 cylinder. It is rated at 13.4 HP at 3600 RPM's.. Peak torque is right around 2466 RPM's.
As you know with alternators we don't have to worry about engine sync to get our 60Hz. That's one of the nice things about using the DC alternators. My goal is to conserve fuel and get as much power in amperage out if these alternators as I can. I will drop the engine RPM to around 2400 to 2500 RPM's and install the correct engine pulley to run the alternators at peak output.
I was able to call Balmar, I spoke with Rick Jones, it was after hours and he picked up the phone to talk with me. Balmar has introduced a 3 stage Dual alternator regulator Max Charge 612 -Dual (list price under $500.00) It allow for temperature sensing for Both alternators AND your battery bank.
Others have commented that you are cutting it close on power. 400 amps at 24 volts (will be higher but for calculation purposes) is 9600 watts or about 12.9 HP. I have to wonder how accurate the rating on your engine is. If done according to SAE standards, that HP is at standard temp and pressure without accessories (won't affect you, since I assume your engine will not have a separate small alternator, but it will have a fan). If you go up in altitude to say Denver, or worse yet Vail in Colorado, you are going to be short of HP for Max output.
The alternators have an efficiency factor for altitude as well as I recall. Perhaps that works in your favor.
Gut feeling, you will not be getting 200 amps out of the unit very often, so maybe you are OK, but you are close.
Jim
This engine will not have a fan, I mentioned in a earlier post that I will purchase a radiator and electric fan. Honda Civic radiators and fan assy's are cheap. The engine will be turning a water pump but that is it. Yanmar is pretty good with there dyno sheets. We have to trust the ratings coming into the US for emissions cert.
Jim you might be right about not getting 400 amps. But if I get 360 amps at 1/2 gallon per hour I will be happy.
Quote from: happycamperbrat on June 10, 2010, 06:06:53 PM
You are going to do plans, pictures, drawings, etc. so us newbies could consider copying right? Please ;)
Ditto! I'm also very interested in this project.
I hope that 2 cylinder Yanmar is smooth and quiet enough. John Deere used that engine in the early 650 compact 4wd tractors, but only for a couple years, then switched to a 3 cylinder. I hate to say it, but our mechanics would call that little engine a "thumper".
Mark
Once again- a 2 cylinder will be much rougher (read noisier and more vibration) then a 3 cylinder since a 2 cylinder is not even firing. Even though it appears that the Kubota is built lighter in weight then the Yanmar, I have a truck driver friend that when he sold his big rig, his Powertech 8kw gen using the small 3 cylinder Kubota had 23,000 hours on it-like 920,000miles without overhaul. That sounds pretty robust to me. Good Luck, TomC
I received my new 200 amp Leece-Neville alternators on Friday. I'll take a few pictures and post them later. These are large frame units. I was really surprised to see how heavy they are. They are about 3/4 the size of a Delco 50DN.
Listening to the conventional wisdom of Tom and Jim and others, including onelapper with his famous quote "thumper" >> I will move to a 3 cylinder engine. It wouldn't be fun to spend all the time building this thing to hear the pounding of the 2 cylinder. There is a guy on Youtube who has installed a small 2 cylinder Yanmar in a Ford Fiesta. The car really rattled.
After you get it working, you could develop a load sensitive throttle to control the engine speed. Then you would have something like the Onan Quiet Diesel.
As I was thinking about this post, I went to the Onan site. They now have a hybrid system
http://www.cumminsonan.com/hqd/ (http://www.cumminsonan.com/hqd/)
which looks very interesting (way out of my league, but interesting). It "combines a Power Unit, Inverter, Transfer Switch
and coach batteries into one cohesive system that automatically and seamlessly
powers your motor home efficiently and effectively."
No idea how much it costs, and I don't want all the fancy electronics myself, but it does look pretty cool.
To my way of thinking it's basically what we are talking about. An integrated, highly controlled version of a DC power plant supplying power to batteries and an inverter, to supply both 12 volt and 120 volt power seamlessly. Connected to the pedestal - auto transfer switch puts the Inverter in charge mode for 12 volt supply and supplies 120 VAC to the coach. Generator on - supplies power to the inverter and keeps the batteries topped up. Generator off - batteries supply the inverter. Inside the coach - never a dull moment! I want to take it a step further and add the bus engine alternator to the choices.
This makes me wonder if inside the Honda and Yamaha inverter generators if they develop DC power first, then convert that to AC. It would be one way to do, I don't see any reason that developing AC power first would be more efficient.
Edit long after the fact but I don't want people thinking I am dense... Alternators of course develop AC first, then it is rectified to DC via the rectifier diode packs. usually 6 diode packs. The fancy Onan mentioned above actually says in it's literature that it develops AC to the inverters, just not necessarily 120 volt 60hz AC.
Brian
I think the key to good bonedocking power is to start with one or two good inverters. If you shop you can find new Xantrex/Trace 4024's for $1500 to 1600 each. Outback and Magnum are other options. My goals are to have one SW4024 running off my 50DN (engine) charging one battery bank and adding the "new" Hybrid 400 amp system for the second SW4024, and a second battery bank. This last bank will have solar added. I will keep my 20KW genset as a backup unit.
I think that is basically what they do. They start with AC, rectify to DC to an inverter and back to AC. The only reason for doing that is that the engine does not have to run at a strict constant speed, thus lower power requirements can save a little fuel.
We spent the night once with friends that had the Onan QD. It was quiet but I found the speed changes with load to be very annoying. I much prefer the constant speed when trying to sleep.
Looking at the figures again- two 200 amp alternators at 28 volts (when they are running) can produce 11,200 watts. I just had a custom 12 kw genset made by Dick Wright of Wrico International using the new Kubota D1305 3 cylinder. It is a longer stroke version of the D1105. Look at the genset versions that are all rated at 1800rpm. Then you'll have a nice quiet engine that will last forever. Just run a 2.5 or 3 to one belt system and the alternators will also be happy. (6" pulley on the engine and a 2" pulley on the alternator). Good Luck, TomC
Ahoy, Busfolks,
Soundproofing your genset. I posted this some long time ago, but this piece has so many 'hits', that I thought to repeat:
Sound box, built for my 12 KW genset:
Start with ½" birch plywood, then two layers of 30# roofer's felt, then one layer of 2 lb/sq/ft roofer's lead sheet, then two more layers of felt, and then a layer of 1/2 " plywood. Sound labyrinths for the air in and out. Two cheap mufflers in series.
This technique is very effective and very low cost. Disadvantage is that it is a bit heavier than more elegant schemes. Not such a big problem on a bus -- You probably don't want to fly it.
(My 12kw system is so quiet, that if anyone anywhere around is running their genset, you cannot hear mine). I had planned to include some internal sound absorbent material, but it was not needed.
BTW, my genset is a belt drive with a 3600 rpm dynamo. A VW 1600 cc diesel. Very light weight and compact for 12KW. I has been a while, and those old VW diesels are now about 'extinct'. The modern VW TDI is probably not a good choice today.
These bus conversions last a long time, and when you use these 'variously derived/adapted' mechanisms, you had better line up your spares (I have).
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Bob are you DC or A/C? Do you have pictures?
Ahoy, Zero,
No pix -- System is A/C 120v/240v-- Gillette. A good choice for an A/C dynamo, because they are double wound, and can crank out 80% of their rating on one phase.
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Zero, What's going on with your DC powerplant. How about an update?
Kind of late to this thread I'm afraid but thought this might be of some interrest. About two years ago when fuel was almost $5 a gallon, I started a DC genset project. I sourced a single cylinder Kubota, water cooled double balance shaft diesel. I'm driving a 200 amp 12 volt alternator, using a Zantrex 3 stage regulator with battery heat sensor. I plan on running at 2000 rpm, @150 amps to charge the battery bank. I have a heat exchanger to heat domestic water through my marine water heater (double walled of course). I have a Trace SW2512 which has load sharing so running a single air should be possible. Kubota claims a fuel usage figure of 8 hours per gallon at rated load. The sound box is on the drawing board using Bob Belters' design and will be quiet enough to run without anyone hearing a thing outside the bus.That's the plan anyway. Just need to get the time to finish it. :D
Hal
would an engine like this be a good choice for a DC power plant? I am thinking of a single DN50 alternator, running the engine around 2000 rpm.
http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/diesel/engines/4179,1.html (http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/diesel/engines/4179,1.html)
Brian
Hal, Thanks for posting your experiences.
Brian, I have looked at the single cylinder diesels and have come down to conclusion that for smooth quiet running I need to purchase a small 3 cylinder Yanmar or Kubota.
I have received a few PM's from this email for updates. I have purchased my 400 amp 24V alternators and need to write out a check for the powerplant.
Brian-that little 3 cylinder engine would be perfect! Quiet, smooth, long lasting. Good Luck, TomC
The single cylinder Kubota I bought uses double balance shafts and is remarkably smooth for a single. It is limited in hp and wouldn't work in your application but should work for my modest wattage requirements. The primary use is to charge batteries as running a 20k genset 3+ hours a day with limited load (without air of course) makes little sense. $12 to $15 a day to keep the refer going vs $1.50 makes it practical. Hal
Quote from: Zeroclearance on July 09, 2010, 10:46:34 AM
Hal, Thanks for posting your experiences.
Brian, I have looked at the single cylinder diesels and have come down to conclusion that for smooth quiet running I need to purchase a small 3 cylinder Yanmar or Kubota.
I have received a few PM's from this email for updates. I have purchased my 400 amp 24V alternators and need to write out a check for the powerplant.
I this the two 200 amps with a fancy dual controlling regulator or what did you end up with?
Pics-pics!
Pretty-Please!!
Any updates on the DC powerplant?