So, I know we have talked about this before, but I still need some advice, plus I dont remember it all, lol. We have a shop that wants to paint our bus, and they seem to know what they are doing, but.......... They said we should not use clear coat, to use urathane instead. They said it will still shine, and hold up as well. I did a little research, and it seems all cars are clear coated. We want to get the best. Will the paint hold up as well without the clear coat? And shine? We have this set up for them to finish the prep work Monday, but, we need to be sure about this. Only want to do this once.
Ruthi I am no painter but I am a fan of clear coats. It always seams to get that glossy thick wet look when it is done. My wife and I have been talking about paint. One day were going to have to repaint. Whoever did the conversion did no use clear on my bus. It doesn't look as good as it should. When we repaint I am going to drop some serious coin, find the best and have them do it all. I believe we have settled on real pearl white. When u was a kid I had a job as a mechanic through high school. We built a lot of hot rods and my favorite was the crushed oyster shell pearl white with 20 coats if clear. Absolutely loved that paint job when we got done.
That would be a really nice color. We are just concerned that we are getting the best, that will hold up in the long term, and be that really shiny look.
Ruthi,
I used to do paint and body work. I prefer a base, clear coat method. One of the big differences is the work it takes after the paint to get a single stage to shine like a clear coated paint. You have to do ALLOT of wet sanding and buffing. What is the cost difference between the two methods at the shop?
The nice thing about a single stage is it is sometimes easier to repair a scratch. You don't have to re clear the whole panel and usually more material is there to polish out future light scratches. Whereas a base-clear you do not have as much material that you can sand on before going through the clear. Both have their pro's & con's. If they are both applied correctly you can get a deep wet look from both and with proper care either one will last for many, many years.
HTH,
Bryan
I use both and plan on using one step on next project...with the addition of hardeners it makes a very durable and classier finish.Ck on pearl look can be added to most colors and does some neat lite tricks in sun and under lights...they can paint you a sample on a test panel of each type..put side by side and choose..Looking foward to finished product(pictures required) Bob
I dont know the difference in the pricing. Should it cost a lot more for the labor to do the clear coat? That is an awfully big surface to have to shine with the buffing. I guess the buffing would have to be done fairly often? We only have 3 windows in the coach, so, lots of area. I know a shop in S.C. quoted us about the same price to to the clear coat, as we are going to pay the local guys. But they are also including doing some of the prep for us too. It kinda sounds like maybe we should do the clear coat. :-\
Bob, are you talking about using single stage with urathane, or some other product. I have got to figure this out before they purchase the paint.
I would look at single stage. One of the things I noticed when buying mine is most buses needed clearcoat repair. I know cars use it but it may have something to do with the surface area it is on. I would think the bus expands allot more in the sun than a car does. The single stage does wax to an easy shine. The cost should be allot cheaper just for the cost of paints. the cost of 20 coats of clear would not compare for five coats of single stage. if it lasted 8 years have it done again for another 8. You would still be cheaper in the cost in paint and decide if you really like the color .
I don't think the bus would require 20 coats of clear. That was a 1967 camero we did in pearl white and 20 clear coats. That was in the early 1980s and they paid $5000 for that job. I never knew that much money existed back then. The last poster had a point of repainting every decade with a single base paint. Nothing that goes down the road a lot will last a decade still looking brand new. So he has a good point.
Ruthi,
No you should not have to buff hardly ever o the single stage if a good wax is used a few times a year. IMO only waxing once a year will not cut it. The reason most have to buff is because of lack of care over several years. There is something to say for the durability of a single stage urethane w/out clear.
The biggest reason for clear coat peeling is in either the prep, mix or even age of clear or the paint it is trying to bond to. The clear peels typically because it is not remaining bonded to the paint underneath. And typically 3 coats of clear are normal.
With either method it requires the proper prep, prep & more prep. Is the shop giving any kind of warranty on the paint job?
I have also looked at photos of buses done by Willy's Custom paint that did Clifford's bus and would bet they are base-clear coat. Here is a link to the site. http://www.willyscustomconcepts.net/coachgallery.html (http://www.willyscustomconcepts.net/coachgallery.html)
You can see Clifford's Eagle from the side and rear. That is a base-clear.
Bryan
That is true about how long it will look good. :'( Oh well.............. Well, maybe we will stick to the original plan. The guy that is painting it has done a lot of expensive cars and some prevost, so, I am sure he knows what he is doing. If all goes well, it should have paint on it this month. We are going with the copper color that is on the 2010 ford lariats,metalic copper, and a black stripe. We wanted to keep it simple with a clean line. Cant wait! Thanks for the advice, as always.
I have done both base coat clear coat and single stage with hardener...over time (8yrs) the base coat clear coat has faded more than the single stage.with the hardener or wet look additive.I actually think the clear coat has fogged...time of painting is a problem(drying) the longer it takes to apply the more likely of a stray bug or dust in paint...a bus is huge and takes a long time to coat so more exposure time...If you trust the guys with your money and bus listen to them they are the people your going to see if you have problems..I'm sure they are more comfortable with the urethane based products for their set up and time...It is my opinion that the single stage will hold up better to acid rain damage..a short coming of the old clear coat...newer systems are (clear coat). are a little better.I have prob over stepped my self,I will be using single stage with hardener...Bob ps was typeing at same time..good decision
Quotemost buses needed clearcoat repair
I see that a lot also......
You can buff an old single stage paint job to look good again. Failing clear coat will require professional repair. You probably will not know if the painter did a bad prep job for several years. I see many cars from the '90s in need of new clear coat. How long are you going to keep your bus? Heavily oxidized paint looks better to me than clear coat gone bad. This is only my observation because I know nothing about paint unless it comes out of a can, and even that is little to nothing.
Ruthi, You do not need to wax urethane to make it shine. I have seen a few buses that the clear coat went bad and yellowed. Clear is nice as you can paint all you colors and then clear coat. with the single stage paint you need to let each color dry longer. My last RV was single stage and then I scuffed and put on stripes and clear coated them. My bus now is urethane and it shines just fine. I wax the front to help get the bugs off. You will have a tape line with the single, the clear coat will help hide the tape line. I am not a painter by trade, so these are my thoughts only but I did paint my own. Tom Y
What is a normal time frame for a warranty?
Ruthi, I used a single stage when I did mine. Had never painted before, and I'll never do it again. :( Glad you found a pro that knows what he's doing. I had thought about using base/clear coat next time around. Got this info from a friend of mine who does it for a living, over 30 years and counting.
I think our finish is OK for a newbie, but I like the wet look. Call Mike at Willy's, he'll set you straight on what to use. He does it for a living and everything I have seen that he has done is immaculate!
We'll be expecting pics after you get it done! ;D
Paul
You will get pictures for sure, we are excited. ;D
Our Eagle has 8 different colors of base with 5 coats of clear if painting one color with no graphics one step is what I would go with.As far as a warranty Mike warranties our clear and paint for as long as we own the bus the paint and clear are 6 years old now and looks like he painted it yesterday
good luck
I think MACO even gives 3 yrs on their warranty. Just remember you not restoring a classic car. It is a bus hopefully used allot. Most show cars are trailered because of the cost of the paint. As much as we take care of them don't go overboard on cost of paint with "professionals" that you can't bear the thought of driving in the rain. Get a good product that you can enjoy for many years and not break the bank getting something that does not give you the comfort of using what you have. IT IS A HIGHWAY BUS ;D. It will be backed into tree limbs and take rock chips. It will still always get ohhs and ahwws when it pules up no matter how much you spend on paint. When I was little we camped in a class c. after a few changes in coaches my dad won't even lets us or his grand kids come inside in fear of something getting messed up. I hope he is happy with it lol.
Eddie, we use and I do mean use our coach. We work out of it and are on the road 10 and a half months out of the year. We put well over 50,000 a yr on it. :o
The hardest part of any new paint job is the first scratch, once it's in place your over the hump so as they cash the check just nick a small inobtrusive place and you'll sleep better those first few nights lol.
I think that the PO had our bus painted in 1984 0r 85. They fulltimed for 8 years and then did winters down south for the next 12. We have fulltimed for 6 1/2 years. The bus has 280,000 miles on it since converted and since we have had it, it has never spent even one day under cover. Don't know if the PO kept it under cover or not. About 2 years ago we started to lose the clear coat. People still like our paint job but one of these days i would like to have it re-done. Just have to make enough money. ;D
Cody, years ago i worked with a guy that bought a new truck and was obsessive/anal about where and how he parked it so that he would not get a scratch on it. He drove me nuts for about 6-8 months with this. I told him to just scratch it himself and get over it. Told him i was going to do it myself. ;D Finally somebody got him in a parking lot even though he had parked way away from anybody else. After that he was ok to work with again......and no, it wasn't me! :)
Depends on how long you expect the finish to last. Our 95 Grand Cherokee was clearcoated when new. We are starting to have problems with the clearcoat lifting in a few spots along the window opening on the doors. We clearcoated over the vinyl lettering on our coach about 8 years ago. some of it is starting to lift. Our coach was painted with a single stage and 10 years later it still looks very good (except for the scratches, most incurred during Hurricane Charley). Jack
I know nothing about bus finishes but am reading with interest because at some point I will have to have the bus done, if it was wood sided I could give it a nice french polish but being metal I'm lost as usual but it would seem to me that the prep work is the critical issue with any paint job. (I have given thought at various times to creating a bus woodie) ( don't go there please, I can get into enough trouble as it is lol).
Cody, LMFAO! ;D ;D ;D. Uh Oh!
At Freightliner, the two stage paint is the standard paint on the Cascadia. If it is cost effective, Freightliner will do it. Good Luck, TomC
I think that base coat/ clear coat is more forgiving during the painting, and that's why virtually all production lines use it. Industrial coatings like Imron are tough as old nails, but don't have quite the shine - but last forever. My philosophy is that if I am hiring a person for a job, part of what I am hiring is his knowledge and expertise, so why would I second guess his recommendation? If he wants to do single stage paint, that's what would go on the bus. Just so long as you like how it will look when it's done. if the sample doesn't have the shine you want, ask for another suggestion.
I paint my race cars exclusively with single stage paint, never base coat clear coat. less layers to sand off when I break it...
Brian
Quote from: eddiepotts on June 05, 2010, 07:13:12 PMI would think the bus expands allot more in the sun than a car does.
Nope. It expands less (more structure to sink the heat into).
HOWEVER, the expansion is far more obvious because flat panels deform more than panels with curves and corners, becoming wrinkled or "bulgy" between anchors.
This is why S&S have such big, sweeping trim in seemingly random directions and contrasting colors -- they attract the eye in a positive way, camouflaging the wrinkles.
Lots of good advice here. I have painted several cars and have made the decision not to use clearcoat again. I did my 56 Chevy in a basecoat/clearcoat with the very best material PPG offered (Urethane). After about 8 years, I had to re-coat the clearcoat and that only lasted less than 4 years. Today the paint is a disaster. The poor car is outside all of the time, so that is worse case.
All you have to do is drive down the road and look at cars that are a few years old and you will see that most of them have some sort of clear coat issue.
Most of our buses are not kept in a shop when we are not using them. The sun will kill the paint pretty quickly.
Don't get me wrong, clear coat paint is gorgeous!!! I tend to keep my vehicle a long time and I want durable.
Don't get locked in to Urethane. If you are spraying it yourself, it is DANGEROUS to your health!!!! I have not followed the technology in recent years as much as I used to, but good old enamel paint used to be very durable. Look at a 25 year old John Deere combine or tractor. Worse case, you simply buff it a bit and it looks new. It is much harder to spray (will run at the drop of a hat since it is slow drying and it needs to go on wet to look good).
The other consideration is metallic vs non-metallic. Again, metallic almost always looks better, but it is hard to spray, hard to repair, and not as durable. The metallic particles are shaped like cigars and their orientation can change the color. That is why some metallic paint looks blotchy and some repaired panels look like a perfect match in one direction and significantly different in a different direction. Today's metallic paints are easier to spray (better technology), but 20 years ago, the painter technique made all the difference in the world.
Most automotive paint today is water based. I have a hard time believing that it is as durable as the solvent based paints. Even the solvent based paints are not what they used to be. EPA regulations have force some of the "good stuff" off the market.
Just some random thoughts. Ruthi, not sure this helps you, but it might help others reading this thread.
Jim
True about enamels. You can buff them back to life. If it is really oxidized you can wet sand with 12-1500 grit then buff. This can also be done with a clear coat. You just do not have as much material that can be sanded away with the clear.
For example my 1970 4905 has the original paint which is an enamel. I wet sanded and buffed the rear blue stripe and it looks nice.
First pic is when I bought it and second is after removing decals, wet sand and buffing.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi940.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad245%2Fbryanhes%2FGMC%2520Bus%2520Conversion%2FIMG_0690.jpg&hash=8431f8fc57d1be286c1c2707d6645a736e7911af)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi940.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad245%2Fbryanhes%2FGMC%2520Bus%2520Conversion%2FIMG_0793.jpg&hash=69518ed8031743b4d7f32034daa0928fcb0b86fb)
So will a single stage paint take more abuse and be able to be brought back to life without as much work as a base-clear? You bet! Will it typically have the depth as a normal base-clear? Nope! You have to work much harder with a single stage to get the depth and shine as a base-clear. But it can be done to look as good. I can usually shoot a single stage and not have to wet sand to have a nice shine. Its all about laying it on almost to the point of running the paint but not to get a nice shine without the extra steps. But to get the depth it is allot of wet sanding and buffing. And don't think about sanding a single stage paint with metallic in it because it will distort the metallic effect and look horrible.
Everyone has had different success and results with what they have used. There are many variables. Including but not limited to the age and type/brand of paint, hardeners, reducers and clears to the experience of the guy's doing the prep and paint, type of booth they are shooting in to humidity. I think everyone gets my point.
Ruthi, you and Ken should use what you feel is right for your use. If you trust the guy doing the work and he is going to warranty it go with his recommendation.
Hope it turns out great for you two ;D
Bryan
I think clear is all in timing, prep and the painter I have seen Prevost's and Newell's Mike painted 25 years while working for Marathon and Newell and never saw one lifting.
Clear coat is good stuff when I get a nick or scratch Mike buffs it out , on my graphics you cannot feel one line where it starts and stops and I have a bunch.
All the top end conversions use base coat clear coat for you guys going to Bus'n USA set down and talk to Mike he will give you the facts on both systems this guy paints helicopters and private jets with base and clear
good luck
I am with you on the base-clear Clifford. I prefer it but also have allot of experience using it. The only downside to scratches are if they are deep into the paint. If you are good you can touch up the clear with a syringe or air brush and it will not be very noticeable. Also depends on the size of scratch :o.
I however do not know if I will take on my paint job for the simple fact that it is a large area and I am guessing that Mike has more than one guy shooting the paint when doing a bus.
Bryan
Brian, when he starts with the clear he has plenty of help he checks his dryer and the air temp on the air for what I don't know but I have watched him re clear coat complete buses where the owner wanted to keep the same paint and I was told you could not do that by others in the paint world.
Our newest moderator (Paul) is going to attend Mike's seminar at Busn Usa bet you we will have the low down then on the 2 systems LOL because Paul is going to ask some questions
fwiw I have been trying to get Mike to do a article for BCM on painting maybe Paul ,Dale and I together can get it done this year
good luck
You definately can re clear over old paint. I have done it many times. Even small areas with a spray can. Bobofthenorth just did some on his with a spray can that I told him about and said it turned out looking pretty good. I have re cleared old heavy metallic painted boats that turn out nicely. There again it is proper prep.
I would say he is making sure there is no moisture in the lines (dryer) before he starts spraying as a little moisture can screw things up in a hurry ie. fish eye etc..
Bryan
It's pretty hard to beat the durability of Imron. Valspar also makes a similar product that is a tad cheaper. You can also get Imron as a clear. I've had cycle parts painted with Dupont paint and cleared with Imron. If your concerned about durability then the Imron is the only way to go.
FINALLY! I heard the word IMRON from a expert on this post. I have always thought that the real beauty of two stage paints was that they were more fail safe. You need a clear coat specific gun but you never get a run and if you do you "air it down" to a spot that doesn't matter. The manufactures went to two stage because it was easier and cost less than Imron or single stage and was thinner.
The original "wet look" paint was Imron....I think. It is a "wet look" paint, however, at least in its appearance. It DOES come in a crystal clear variety and that is the one that they dump the metalic flake into. Prep and product compatibility are paramount with Imron and it is most certainly not the paint to "try out". The "shooter" that did my Z with "tripple" silver Imron was a Mexican that traveled all over San Diego to shops shooting. He was expensive but if you were shooting silver anything he was the only way to go. My car was a show stopper and even cops stopped me to find out what that paint was and where to get it done. The shops, at that time, didn't shoot the Imron themselves but contracted or that service. Black art!
Imron was developed "for" the airline industry. Seems there is so much UV at 40K feet that most paints have a very short lifespan. They oxidize, and pit and get rough with age. They can be buffed but the expense of dong a 747 is probably more than a repaint. Imron is impervious to UV, doesn't seem to oxidize any worse than ceramics and stays "snot on a pealed onion" slippery. It buffs just fine and I did mine 6 weeks after it was finished and it added noticeble clarity and brightness to what I thought was a perfect finish. I have applied Acrylic Enamels that I thought came close to Imron in finish 20 years ago. Imron can't be touched up as it won't even stick to itself. Full panels ust be shot but it doesn't fade so a match is easier. That is a really good thing a you can't "blend in" a repair. It is severely expensive as a product and out of my reach today.
It is a really back breaking lot of work to mask and paint a bus. I know cause I did it and I ain't no pro. I bought the DA sanders and paint guns and materials and hired help for the body work and general assist/labor. It looks really god till this day and it was painted in 93 with Nason, a bottom tier pant at the time. I painted it at 6am on a dirt road out in front of a barn on a friends farm. Read a lot of books aqnd asked a lot of stupid questions of generous people/professionals. I have never waxed it and it has sat outside since then in the Or. rain and mildewed to severely "black". Cheap junk paint holds up really well on vertical surfaces cause it is intended to hold upon horizontal surfaces like a hood or viseble car roof top. It will be at Bus-in for your entertainment.
Today, on my budget, she would get a coat of premium porch floor gloss LATEX paint. :P ;D ;D
I would not use two stage. Every failed paint job I have seen in the past ten years has been two stage and , yes, you could notice that "from the hi-way over there on the other side of the field". Repair, fade, buffing and failure issues overcome the "thin" advantages.
I have told this story many times before but I never tire of reporting a 10G savings and how I did that. There are others, on this forum, that have echoed my process and success so I ain't all that unique. Hope it helps somebody.
John
JohnEd... I had a boat painted with Imron as well as the interior part of the floor that wasn't carpeted. It still looked awesome when we hauled the hull to the dump 15 years later!! Even the abuse of walking on it didn't scratch it. Needless to say you don't want to wait long to sand any sags or runs out!!!!
Chopper,
I don't recall the dilution ratio of Imron. Do you? I spent a lot of money on the additives to that stuff and th paint and reducer were bad enuf. What would you think it would cost, in product alone, to paint a 40 foot bus? I have the guts to ask you that cause you said you were in the business.
Thanks,
John
Ruthi, my vote is for a single stage urethane like Imron. And FWIW, there is more than one type/series of Imron by Dupont, ie 5000, 6000 etc.
Other manufacturers may have comparable products. Again, talk to your shop
My bus is a 1995. I assume the paint is original. The clear coat is peeling in a number of areas and has been since I bought the bus in 2006 and probably before that. There are some large areas with the clear peeled off in large sheets.
Brian,
I am sorry to hear that your paint job has failed. No joke. I have heard it before and seen it many times and all were two stage process. In Pennsylvania there is a trait common to that local. That trait is that "if it has happened before then it is God's will, inevitable, or whatever, but there is nothing you can do to resolve it or prevent it." It goes something like this, "oh, sure, it always does that", spoken about a dam failure and catastrophic flood. Everyone within hearing distance then mutters and shakes their head in agreement....no action or resolve. Always has mystified me no end.
There are good well intentioned and intelligent people on this board that will dive as deep into denial as any Pa. resident. It goes like this "oh, that was due to bad prep or improper procedure". Well folks, that should kill any job. Problem is that bad jobs like that only happen to two stage. Use the system that doesn't fail that way. Understanding it and using it again is not a good move unless redoing the job is of no appreciable consequence to your wallet. Imagine this: I am going t have Dr. Rajah do my open heart surgery, even though he has the worst survival rate by oodles, because every death was easily explained in therms of cause and blame. In Pa that would pass for good sense. Someone in the crowd would undoubtedly add that "all his patients that make do pretty good." I couldn't stand it....you know I couldn't stand it...don't you?
To paint or not to paint...that is the problem,
John
Thanks to all of you, your input was great. We are going to go with the painters advice I cant wait to see it start happening.
John Ed, Actually I'm not in the painting business but I have had a lot of stuff done over the years and one of my best friends owns a body shop. The Imron is higher but not as bad as one would think. Like I posted earlier, Valspar makes a similar product and it is cheaper. My friend paints a lot of trucks and always goes the Imron route. Nasty stuff for the health and requires more than a dust mask to paint!
IMRON has always seemed to be the standard against which other paints are judged. PPG has/had a very similar product in years past, but it has become compromised by EPA regulations from what I hear. I know that my catalyst for some paint (uregthane) I need to finish a car I have been working on has been replaced at least twice since I started the job several years ago. I have not checked, but I would bet the catalyst I have (the product has a relatively short shelf life) and been changed once again.
So, that begs the question about IMRON: has it also been compromised over the past several years (have to believe that it has)?
Ruthi, this thread is so long that I forgot what your painter is planning on using.
Jim
I thought i heard a while back that Imron had been banned?
ED, the water based Imron is still on the market the good stuff is gone thanks to the EPA
good luck
At Los Angeles Freightliner's body shop we use Dupont Imron 5000 (solvent based 2.8 VOC) and 6000 (water based). There was a learning curve, but now I can't tell the difference between factory or shop painted surfaces. They do such a good job, they are going to paint my truck when done. Good Luck, TomC
I thought 6000 was a base coat and needs a clear coat I know it needs the Corlar primer or equal and the Metalok to work proper
good luck
Clifford, I painted a 45' boat trailer with that good imron, that was the best paint I ever used! After I used it one time I went to the dermotologist you need protection using the stuff......I cleaned up and ended up being allergic to the stuff...........that paint lasted 10 years on the trailer! ;)
Pat,
The paint lasted 10 years and your allergy will last forever, at least as far as you are concerned. Ask your dermatologist what other chems or "family of chems" you should also expect to have a bad reaction to. AND in what products they might be found. Your exposure could still kill you. Look at the Nam and Desert Storm vets for latent complications and look at the 25 plks years they weretold that there was no scientific pro that the war did it. It was "that liar" that said that we would treat the vets without that conclusive proof and if it turned out that it wasn't Agent Orange related we would just be sorry we jumped the gun.....after 25 years of watching them die while the national labs that had been shuttered continued to "look for conclusive scientific evidence". It is ok to throw up at this point.
I guess the EPA and Cal OSHA got there too late for you but not for your kids and grand kids hopefully. As the handicap facility coordinator I got to meet lots of people with special needs. The industrial cause resperatory cases were really sad is there ain't much you can do well that doesn't involve breathing. If the mfrs had worked with the pub health people in the first place OSHA would never have been created. Like every agency I know of it was created to right a terrible wrong.
I was in the paint both while all my cars were shot and I only had a charcole mask on my face. How did that Mex that id it for a living manage or did he in fact manage. He sure wouldn't have gotten any med treatment in SD. Like Clifford said "the EPA banned....". I have never heard of a single substance that the EPA banned that turned to be nourishing after all. Never.
Stay out of that paint both and if outside stay upwind. I held my breath for a few minutes before retreating to catch my breath. Isocyano....what? "Need a booth, John". A pasture will do nicely if I am up wind, thank you. And I am still stupid like that but I won't work anyone else like that or even allow.
Buses are constructed with materials that out-gas and we should investigate the appropriateness of some of this stuff and heating a lot of it does change its character. Complicated. Oh yeah, I remember....EPA approved....American Society of ????approved, etc. Look for the good housekeeping seal of approval cause these types of protection have been around for a long time and the need never changes. Greed!
John
John
All I can say is Imron overspray on the floor lasts years and years. Anyone thinking of such should leave it to the pros lest it get into your lungs. I worry about my buds that have done it for most of their lives and the chemicals they are involved with. But then again I've been welding for over 30 years now and I have a feeling that that will catch up to me someday also. I look back to the lyrics of a song by Neil Young. "What makes you live will kill you in the end". But basically any paint product is not good for you especially anything with a hardener. Painting something as large as a bus, expecting perfection that lasts forever.................... and at a reasonable price........... good luck. And then consider the government regulations and the long term health issues of the guy doing it. I think all of our advise was nothing compared to hopefully what the people painting the bus has given her. They do it for a living. Just live with the flaws and enjoy! Can't wait for the after pics!
Catalyst
Chopper, I have the same concern. In the old days I used to shoot lacquer paint and drink a beer or two - wonderful "high". Problem was I drove home a couple of times and don't remember it.
I have done a ton of things that I will probably pay for. One of the worst was to weld on galvanized steel -- a terrible thing to do!!!!
After I painted my '56 with urethane in '87 (what they called a wet-wet system -- sprayed basecoat and clearcoat in one setting), I ended up in the hospital with low oxygen issues.
Since then, I have had chest X-rays every year. This year my new doctor questioned my (and my previous doctor's) intelligence. He said that after 10 years that permanent lung damage would have showed up and the radiation risk was a whole lot worse than the other damage. Hope he is right. Obviously, the issue is much bigger than lung problems, but I figured that was the first place it would show up.
I often say that if I knew I was going to live this long (67+) I would have taken better care of myself :o
Jim, what did you need a beer for when spraying lacquer LOL never fear if there is a health related problem that shows up these TV lawyers will be all over it like white on rice and just look at all the money waiting for you.
Me I have this thing about plastic and PVC working where they made vinyl chloride when I was younger I will not drink from plastic or set on vinyl LOL
Clifford
Make sure that your painter uses etching primer on the bare aluminum.
Jim, what did you need a beer for when spraying lacquer LOL
From the mouths of Babes, Jim, from the mouth of Babes. Turns out that Lac thinner has METHANOL in it. That will kill you or blind you or do perm liver or brain damage. It is not a major food group. NO KIDDING!
Now, from my journey through the Bio D fields I have picked up some "pointers". Methanol is a primary ingredient in the process of making Bio. (I have 55 gallons out back) Handling it is dangerous and there are a lot of precautions and measures......water to flush t out of eyes or off skin....skinning hook to cut off clothing...forced ventilation....sloping floor to a vent to get the fumes out AND A COUPLE BOTTLES OF BEER Your eyes haven't been deceiving you....beer is a safety measure for handling meth and you are supposed to guzzle it as fast as you can and as soon as you can. Turns out that the meth will destroy your liver n short order. The human body actually ha a preference for "ETHANOL" and will select it out of all the stuff in the body to process FIRST. That getting busy with the ethanol AND DELAYING THE PROCESSING OF THE METH will save your life. Seems that meth is processed by other parts of the body if the liver isn't available and that process does no lasting damage. EVERY BioD maker knows this and the next time you hear the words "cross pollination" understand that it through exposing our selves to other experts from unrelated fields we pick truly valuable bits of information.
Jim, you may very well owe your life to those couple beers and most certainly you minimized the damage of your exposure. You don't know what you don't know and you can never be sure of what you didn't remember. Stay with us now.
Clifford, thank you for bring this up. If even one Knut avoids harm it will be worth the risk of alienating you.
John
Well, we have an unlimited warranty on the paint job, and we decided to go with what they think is best, which is urethane. Most of the priming was already done, but they are finishing up a few areas. They are doing working on all the areas that are hard to get to right now, inside compartment door edges, etc. We appreciate all the help. We will keep updating as time goes by.
I can st ill see my reflection in the urethane strips I painted on my S&S more than 15 years ago. Never waxed and always outside. Good choice.
John
Isn't a full face mask that gets fresh air from outside the paint booth/area the best way to prevent damage to the lungs and eyes?
If I ever get around to painting my bus myself I am planning to get the Hobbyaire system that provides fresh air to a full face mask. I assume it would be good enough for occasional use.
This is a great topic!!! I am hopefully going to have my bus sandblasted (just the top half where there is paint - 300.00) and then shoot it. Friends of mine own a quality body shop that can get it in.
But my question and comment is:
There is a company called Southern Polyurethanes (out of Georgia, I believe) whose owner (Barry) is a "Stellar Individual"!!!!!!!!! Truly, he is!! He sponsors a Hot Rodders hands on week long event that I go to in Oblong, Illinois called Metal Meet. (another fantastic site and event for those of us who work with metal) Anyway, for years we did not even know he paid for the rent of the fair ground. He just did it. He is just that sort of guy. (SUPER good guy)
So my question is: Would he be chastised (or even would I be) if I were to get a hold of him and have him chime in on this subject? I know we are not supposed to advertise a product in the forum and I would make sure he knows that, but he is very giving in his knowledge and has tons of it. His company does primers and I sealers. No paint, per se. He has a very high quality product that all those that I know who used it, really like it. (I use the black primer on my old school Hot Rods - love it. 105.oo for 2 gallons) He is also VERY versed in the making, testing and performance of most all paints. He lives and breathes this industry. And the beauty of knowing this fellow is he offers you his personal cell phone that you can call anytime - and about anybody else's paint you might have a problem with. Here is the site in case you want to check on your own:
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm (http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm)
Really, this guy is a top notch guy who cares. I intend to use his epoxy primer and sealer on my bus but I will definitely talk with him before I do, so I know what to do, what to use and what I am in for.
BTW, I am in no way involved with this company. I just know good guys who care and try to turn others on to them.......... Just like I do with this site and all of you.
At the very least, check out their site and if someone could let me know about getting him on board and if it's ok, I'd appreciate it. We might even get another new sponsor! :)
Just a thought,
Chaz
Sounds like a plan Ruthie. Can't wait to to see it!
Chaz, I've hear good things about Barry when I was doing research on product and application method for ours. His prices were always the lowest, and he has a good reputation.
I'm thinking it was on some paint forum that I had heard that name before. Let us know how you like it when you get that far. I'll bet you're itching to git er done huh.
Paul
Brian,
Yes, that is the way to go....full face and fresh air supply. Make sure that the mask maintains a posigtive pressure when youinhale. That is a safty test to make sure you aren't sucking in even a little bit.
The problem with an air supply is the source and what is around it. many divers have been killed by having a fresh dive air supply picking exhaust gas from the air pump motor. Soome of the dive air gets contaminated and then the diver hets it at deapth un great pressure and its Adios. Just thought I'd bring that up in case your air supply was powered by a small engine.
John the worrier.
JohnEd, the beer sure as hell did not save my hair ;D :o
It is really scary what we expose ourselves to over the years. However, I sometimes think we over react a bit. Mercury is said to be so bad for us yet many of us coated pennies with it in our youth. There is a famous car customizer who has been spreading led and smoking cigars (lit with the torch) for a ton of years (he is well into his 80s and still works on the cars). Guess that your genes have a big impact on how you deal with these "killers"
On the subject of fresh air masks, John touched on the air supply. NEVER use a piston type compressor. It can put oil mist into the air and that is really bad for you. Same with the air supply hose. Make sure it has not been used for tools where an oil mist device has been placed in the line.
I use a hospital oxygen mask and a diaphragm compressor with a dedicated hose. The oxygen mask does not cover the mucus membrane around the eyes (absorbs the iscocyanate) but it does flood the eyes with the air that flows out around the mask. I know it is not the best, but it is a whole lot better than a charcoal mask - especially with my beard.
Jim
First paint goes on the compartment door jams tomorrow. ;D The guy did an awesome job on the priming and smoothing out. Keep ya fingers crossed.
Guess that your genes have a big impact on how you deal with these "killers"
So very true! What you are describing is "annecdotal evidence". The people that write this type of regulation hang around hospitals impersonating Dr.s and in labs and insurance companies. Never forget those pesky insurance companies cause they pick up the bill then they pick up the phone to a legi and the crap hits the fan. Medical research university functions hit the ground a runnin and do their multi year rampage to the lynching of some poor chemical ingredient that we all have heard of somebodies relative surviving at least two close encounters with. Right? I always have to laugh when I hear about some Gummint agency "jumpin the gun" and forcing all that law down our throats. remember the last time you heard of some piece of legislation flashing through the legi to inflict restraint on honest folk with a chemical company? The legi is designed to resist all attempts to do anything at all....really, designed to fail. Nobody wants a bunch of pols telling us what to do. The FF felt that way back then and we have held to the tradition.
I have such serious heart burn on this subject. Truly, tied up in knots. I have been advocating for years the painting of buses outdoors with only a charcoal filter mask True, I was using a acrylic enamel but that stuff isn't palatable just because there is something out there WORSE. Really! That stuff used a hardener, as I recall, so according to some here was a very bad substance and I don't doubt that for an instant. My big safety action was I sprayed with the over spray drifting away from me.....only because I had to stop to rinse off my glasses with thinner to be able to see if I got down wind and that had to happen more than once. I am more ashamed of this than proud but I got that thing painted for a few hundred and it is over 15 years old. Mixed emotions at this point. Of course I would still do it, I would just use a better mask. But, I wouldn't let my kids do it under any circumstance. That's clear,isn't it?
Don't ya just love beating the odds?
Every place I have ever had work done has used a oil lubed piston compressor. AND a oil separator in the line at the output of the compressor. Oil spray coming out with the paint? Horrific results. I have seen a second coat of paint actually slide down the side of a car and flop on the floor and the crew just stood there dumbfounded. Finally the owner had his "a pif any" and rushed into the mixing room and grabbed the can of laq thinner and found that someone had brought in a can of the WASH GRADE thinner used to clean guns. It had silicone oil in it as a contaminate....but only small amts according to the caution label. Yes it was my car and yes they worked all night and yes it was done by the following afternoon and yes it was a beautiful job.
I use a hospital oxygen mask and a diaphragm compressor with a dedicated hose. The oxygen mask does not cover the mucus membrane around the eyes (absorbs the iscocyanate) but it does flood the eyes with the air that flows out around the mask. I know it is not the best, but it is a whole lot better than a charcoal mask - especially with my beard.
I really like that...you break the rules but you have a kicker in the hole to allow you to pull it off. I admire that.
You nor anyone else can know where and when some piece of this drivel will come to play to someone's advantage. Thanks for your sharing. Read it or not.
John
Or, you could just spring for safety gear designed for the task. . . I mean, aren't you worth more than your bus is? And, don't you want to have enough lungs and brain cells left to enjoy that paint job for a LONG time??? ???Christy Hicks
Frankly, the cost of the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) is nothing when compared to the suffering you will feel if you develop lung issues. Ask anyone that has been a smoker for many years and has developed COPD or Emphysema what life is like connected to the green bottle. I'm willing to bet that the person will tell you that if they could do it over they would never have smoked. I have seen people who have had their lives ended from COPD and I can tell you that it is not pleasant. From what I have been told, it feels as if the person is sufficating. Not my idea of a fun way to die. Now, ask yourself what price for a new pair of lungs?
Get good equipment. Make sure it works properly. Make sure it fits you properly or it is no good to you.
Quote from: JohnEd on June 08, 2010, 07:42:20 PM
The problem with an air supply is the source and what is around it. many divers have been killed by having a fresh dive air supply picking exhaust gas from the air pump motor. Soome of the dive air gets contaminated and then the diver hets it at deapth un great pressure and its Adios. Just thought I'd bring that up in case your air supply was powered by a small engine.
The Hobbyair system I am looking at using includes a compressor/fan unit. I would assume they aren't introducing stuff bad for your health. I would make sure to set the unit where it can't ingest bad air.
I would make sure to set the unit where it can't ingest bad air.
I'll bet that is in the instructions or "caution statements" within the instructions. I think we have beaten this topic to death. I would scoff, inwardly at least, at this exchange having any worth at all but then I remember it wasn't so very long ago that I skimmed over those cautions and made the comment "now what jerk would/wouldn't do something stupid like that?". Thank you all. The tour with OSHA and the readings associated with that duty opened my eyes a little and the responsibility I had for the safety and well being of my men in the military put an edge on me in that regard and set me up to be receptive to that type info. Still, I cut more corners in my life than a 5 year old with her first pair of scissors. Kenny Rogers? Know when to hold'em and know.....
Thanks all,
John
Quote from: trucktramp
Frankly, the cost of the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) is nothing when compared to the suffering you will feel if you develop lung issues. Ask anyone that has been a smoker for many years and has developed COPD or Emphysema what life is like connected to the green bottle. I'm willing to bet that the person will tell you that if they could do it over they would never have smoked. I have seen people who have had their lives ended from COPD and I can tell you that it is not pleasant. From what I have been told, it feels as if the person is sufficating. Not my idea of a fun way to die. Now, ask yourself what price for a new pair of lungs?
Get good equipment. Make sure it works properly. Make sure it fits you properly or it is no good to you.
Trucktramp well said!
Now I'll tell you a seriously sad story about (actually I have experienced it twice!) a lady who rode my bus once on a High School band trip had the little green bottles and the re-generating machine that re-filled them at night in the hotel room. Every time we stopped she would have her husband digging under the bus for another bottle or two, while she found a place to sit and light up and have a smoke before getting back on the bus and hooking back up to the bottle! Her husband and several others on the trip constantly scolded her and told her if she cared at all about her kids she'd give up smoking and live longer for them. Her response was always "I'm already dying and I do love my kids, if I didn't I wouldn't be on this DAMN trip!" (how sad to think that was the best way she could show the kids she loved them! And also express it out loud!)
;( BK ;(
Yep, that is sad. I had an uncle that died with emphysema. He was on oxygen full time and smoked til the day he died. He died young.
5 pages of posts............and only 3 pictures.............how depressing! :(
How's this
Christy
Nice Christi, I promise to get pics as soon as possible, but, I will start a new post as this one is crazy long, lol.
This thread is a few years old and long, but it is still very useful. Thanks, everyone!
This thread is a few years old and long, but it is still very useful. Thanks, everyone!
This thread is a few years old and long, but it is still very useful. Thanks, everyone!
Quote from: DoubleEagle on March 24, 2016, 08:12:47 PM
This thread is a few years old and long, but it is still very useful. Thanks, everyone!
You said that 3 times... :)
For what it is worth,I have a 2005 Grand Cherokee and a 1994 Prevost .Both are having clear coat issues.Paint under the clear coat is fine.Both of these spend their lives outdoors.Don't know if sun light etc might have might have an adverse effect on the clear coat or not.