Here is a pic of the WVO conversion project. Rather than mounting a piece here and there where space allowed I used an old bed frame angle iron piece to biuld a bar from right to left, high and out of the way in the empty space in the engine compartment. I am not done but check it out.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2Fwvo.jpg&hash=52dbbec277e038ee427c4b6e4e4b1b5f123e6008)
You can't see it but behind the filter is a 20 plate flat heat exchanger which casts off heat. I mounted the $28 Northern tool Golden rod filter against it to heat the aluminum filter housing. The other heat exchanger I got from CHarlie Davidson is mounted to the frame 1/2 inch from and parallel to the exhaust pipe to gather heat from it. I am shocked at how much heat it gathers from the tailpipe. It immediately heats that exchanger long before the water heats it.
The flat plate didn't get that hot until I hit high idle. Holy poop it got hot then. I won't have a heat problem that is for sure. I didn't think about it but since I am doing a closed loop system the oil will go through the heat exchangers several times before it is used. It will be 180 without a doubt.
I figure if I get all the parts I need today I might have it running for the trip to Marble Falls this next weekend.
WAL,
You have some nice features and look t be making progress GREAT!
How are you filtering your WVO stock? You seem to be improvising and that appeals to me especially. Improves the quality of the adventure. There is one item that I have not been able to improvise and that is a centrifuge. The little motor oil filter centrifuges seem to be around but their speed and G force are speculation and they need emptied often in a process cycle. My option is the Simple Centrifuge for speed. With that I can filter at the time of collection and avoid the need to store unfiltered oil. The CS, if run on oil that is heated and run slow it will get out all the water and all the particulate down to the memory of breaded chicken. It will filter down to the sub micron and is the only filter I know of that will do that quickly and cheaply. Initial cost is the problem....$1800 and the operating life span is just shy of forever. Look into them for info and if you find a way to get around the price please share it.
My other problem was "storing" oil on board. There is only room for so many 100 gallon tanks. when you filter using one tank you dump the filtered stock back into the same tank you are drawing from and the actual filter rate for complete filtering goes to infinity, or even longer with some oils. At home, the obvious solution is to use two tanks and at home there is room for that. Not so for any oil you pick up on the road and cold filtering doesn't work with an agitated tank and running down the road they do get cranky. My idea was to use a single closed tank with a bladder and two inlet/outlet ports. The input for the filter would be from one side of the bladder and the filter would discharge into the other side, all the while using the same "tank". My real question is what material to make the bladder from that would fold and be durable. Sealing would present a challenge. Can you see that with this you could feed you engine super clean VO while on the road and min you fuel costs while on an extended trip.
Of course I am interested in the thoughts and suggestions of any and all.
John the tankless
Well sir I thank you. I opted not to go with the fuge for filtering. I have friends who bought them and time is a huge factor. I have 2 55 gallon drums welded together to make a 110 gallon drum with only the bottom remaining in it. I heat and pump from the bottom spraying back to the top to dry the oil. When it is dry I use a 20 micron filter bag and then a 5 micron filter bag. I send it off to a 300 gallon cubie for storage. From there it goes through a home water filter at 2 microns and into the bus.
Good seeing that you made progress!!!
im just filling the Bus and Trailer with 500+Gallons of WVO to make another West Coast run!
with the diesel price getting higher and higher (cant wait were its in CA) i can laugh again,about everybody
who asks me why i do this!!!
good luck and enjoy the first trip.
feels good to run for free.
we just came back from a 2200 mile trip.total diesel use with gen and heater (i need my hot shower in the morning) 28 gallons !!
Well thank you sir. It won't be long now. I bought some valves from omarsales for 50 bucks a piece. He and I think they will work so far as flow. If not I will pull them out and put it the $150 dollar valves from grease car. I can then use the Omar valves on the Excursion when I convert it.
Thats the same valve we had been talking about before!
just make sure your fuel hoses wont touch the turbo or exhaust.(looks pretty close in the pic)
the filter wrap you did,i did it on my first mercedes conversion!! to be honest,after the first filter change on the road i hated it and removed it.there will always some wvo spill when changing cartridges.and then you have it everywhere.
there are some nice electric wrap heaters that can be easy removed,if you wanna stay with that filter.
i used a racor 500fh.there you can load the filter element from the top,easy reprime,and your heater line can stay on the filter body!
just some thoughts
keep on with the grease
WAL/Neo,
Can you guys post a plumbing diagram for your systems. Please?
John
if i would spent as much time on my computer then under my bus,i wouldnt have so much trouble posting!!
im just setting up my conversion on photobucket,but be patient with me!
in words my system is a little different then to my car or truck conversions:
i have some more room in my engine bay then others,as i extended my bus 2feet to make room for the planned cummins conversion,and to get my german bedroom arranged on top of it.
so i have a heated 17 aluminum surge tank next to the engine as fuel source for wvo.this tank is heated by coolant via hot fox.from there it goes to a 30 plate stainless heat exchanger,then to a racor 500fh thats wrapped in aluminum pipe thats connected to my coolant loop also.
then i have a 3/4" hyraulic solenoid 3 port valve to switch inlet engine from diesel to wvo.
then it goes to the engine drive gear fuel pump,to the secondary stock fuel filter into the heads!!!
return goes after the orifice and the t from the heads,to the second 3 port hydraulic valve.
diesel back to main tank
wvo to the surge tank in the engine bay!
the surge tank is controlled by a level sensor,that i can also overide and watch from the front
the tank is automaticly filled from the 250 gallon main wvo tank in the front of the bus
i used a shurflow 45psi piston pump and installed 3/8 aluminum lines .
this way i can also change the wvo diesel ratio in the surge tank.makes faster switchover times.
also on stopping the engine i can purge the wvo diesel mix into it,so i get nothing into the main tanks!
this way i only have to heat 17 gallons at a time ((less condensation))
and i get a lot of heat from the return also heating the surge tank.
remember that the detroit is spilling over 3 gallons a minute.
on a ddec you would have to adress he cooling of the ecm via extra diesel loop,but mine is a MUI.
on my other conversions,i dont have the surge tank.
i heat the main tank via hot fox.use 3/8 aluminum line that i run inside a 3/4" heater hose connected to my coolant loop.this way is the fuel line surrounded by coolant at engine temp.
then i use also 1/2 hydraulic solenoid valves for switching inlt and return.
confusing???
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins091.jpg&hash=0a8381eabaa100ece33cec69e472bbf5106a88ba)
NO! Not confusing to me but I suspect others, and me, would benifit from a diagram but thats easy for me to say as I ain't the one that can do that. Your explanation is clear to me but I would really like to "see" how you did the terminations on the fantastic "fuel line in a fuel/coolant line".
John
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins092.jpg&hash=98943a5e8f8a4de086be096a15b904ddc4b3a04d)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins093.jpg&hash=48639854e16059541100064cce3255b94be65a51)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins096.jpg&hash=9f055a7bb2cafb169abfd45b7a41b92baf695531)
the fuel in coolant line is easy
use a 3/4 brass t
one side 3/4 barbed fitting for the heater hose
opposite side crimp lock fitting drilled up that the 3/8 aluminum line can slide through (just remove the small step inside that stops the pipe)
the side of the t uses a barbed 5/8 (or what your coolant feed size is)
the same t on the other end of the heater fuel hose combo and there you go
it a little tricky to route this beast,as you have to insert the aluminum line int the heater hose frst,then route (install )it into your vehicle,and then make the caps via the discriped t.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins105.jpg&hash=77db5e7867d99ea6ba015625812cfd26bbed5bea)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins103.jpg&hash=031babf3a358ed72f841c076958728ce869a7c81)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins104.jpg&hash=1303ad8fc8648308e59e9b99d3ed97071a935d0a)
the T as Greasy as it gets in my GMC 3500 converted to cummins 5.9 with wvo
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2Fopelgt041.jpg&hash=8fa12902ad2adc53d6169ba83cd17ceff3edd47e)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2Fopelgt042.jpg&hash=322a73758eb5e37ffaaa7f2f98cacb23a1c8be3a)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2Fopelgt043.jpg&hash=b0ade38cb4996474c793833b6be92e968a160ed9)
My wife and I are planning a trip and I suggested New Mexico. If we head that way I would like to meet up with you and maybe check out your gear there in person. It looks like you got it going on. Nice set up.
I set up to dry my oil using heat and spray. After a month I noticed I had a white line in the bottom of the 300 cubie indicating some more water dropped out. I have a pick up tube that goes down into the oil about a foot off of the bottom. I need to change that. I am going to use some flexible hose to a float, using it as a pick up tube that only gathers the top oil rahter than take a chance and get some dropped out water.
You are always welcome to the right now windy and dusty New Mexico,
for now we are just preparing to head out and do a west coast trip to gather my last parts for the bus repower!!
but im sure we will meet soon and chat about all the grease and what else!!
maybe i can use this post to ask one of my questions again!!
Has any body here or knows somebody that is running a cummins engine with PT fuel pump on WVO??????
this would be an early L10 or the famous 855 Big Cam .........
i have seen allready even a Detroit S60 running on WVO but never a Big CAM or other like that!!!
thanks in advance for any hint!!
I should have 200 gallons by the time you get here to Eugene, Orygun. Much of it settled a full year.
Wal,
May I suggest an alternative to your heat and spray drying process. Take a quantity of water and dissolve cheap water softener rock salt into it while the water is hot so it is supersaturated. Add that mix to your oil and pump it around a good long while. Salt water is heavier than fresh and it settles out more quickly. Salt water is looking really hard for some more water to merge with and that water in suspension gets picked up better than..... Drain off the water and be assured there is nearly no water left in suspension. Big added benefit is that ACID levels in WVO are related to water content so get rid of the water and, well, you get the picture.
You can detrermin how much water is suspended in your oil by testing with the MANOMETER AND CARBIDE method and that is down to "how many parts per million"....500 ppm is supposed to be the max allowable and WVO can contain many thousands and still appear clear and dry. The mano is only a piece of clear tubing nailed to a board with a ruler behind it and carbide is cheap and you REALLY should have a really good idea how much water you are pushing as it hurts. While you are at it, test your washed oil for acid level. That is more complicated but nothing you shouldn't easily be able to accomplish.
Lets see....that covers acid and water and you are already doing particulate....so is there anything else you should test for? Your turn to talk and let it be known that salt is not soluble in WVO but it is soluble in the water that might be in suspension along with the acid. Soooo???
Not trying to cause trouble now...HONEST! The hole wurld is a watch'en and even more are listening. ;)
John
Oh man I don't think your causing trouble at all. Any time I can learn somehting new I love to hear it. I have never had atrouble with water in the past and I believe I know where I went wrong this time. I needed to go collect oil but had no place to put the oil I had in the super sucker. I have 2000 gallons sitting around in the 300 gallon cubies. I needed to make room so I started drying and filtering oil to put in the settle tank for the bus. I got in a hurry and steeped out of my rules of "Don't look at the oil to determine if it is dry, test it". I filled the dryer higher than normal and let it run longer than normal. I filtered it and sent it and went to collect oil. To teach me a lesson I am going to have to re-dry that oil. That aint going to be easy for I piped it to go in one direction not the other. I do believe the oil on top in the designated bus settle tank will be water free. I will test it prior to bus entry.
I use salt sometimes when making bio D. After settling and draining the glycerin off of the bioD I circulate through red oak chips and salt. I then run it to a wash barrel. Where I used to use 100 gallons of water to completely wash the fuel of its soap I only use 30 to 40 max.
To check for water I use the hot plate method to check for major water content. If I get crakle and pops then I continue drying. When It passes that then I use the weigh heat and weigh. A fella that goes by John Galt uses a glass beaker covered with a flat piece of glass. He heats the beaker with the oil in it and if condensations developes on the flat glass he continues to dry. That can get you down to 300 PPM or less.
I colect all kinds of oil. Depending on its titrated acid level I decide where it goes. I get some oil that titrates at 20. It goes to an outside 55 gallon drum to be used in bio D with an acid treatment to lower the tritrate low enough to hit it with a base methoxide. I can recover 70 to 80% with the acid/base method. Anything lower than 7 gets regular treatment in the bioD. Then the golden stuff heads to the bus. I got a Pakistani restaurant owner who gives me his oil. All he fries in it is goat which has very little free fatty acids. I call it the golden juice. When making BioD with it all I needed was a base and it passed the 3/27 everytime first time.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7788.jpg&hash=5f7d0d1479d7c641e7ceab3aa6e0a20beb4ac546)
This is a pic of the oil circulate dryer on the left. I have foam sprayed on the bottom barrel to hold as much heat as I can even though it is open top. With patience and not hurrying like last time I can get 50 gallons of oil down to an accepatable level of water in about 4 hours depending on what it had in it prior to drying. Oh please excuse the mess, I have been busy.
To be honest I like your idea of the salt. However I can't take on another project as I am smoked for time right now. I built a massive processor for the bio D and it took 6 months. After running my first 1000 gallons I needed a better mousetrap or at least I needed my mouse trap to be more efficient. I built a Murphy's Machine. The plans tell you how to build it but lack in the automated part. I broke the whole system down and made it more automated. When done you could hit a switch or open a valve to move oil, utilizing the pumps that were already in place.
I sped the machine up to where I started getting a back up at the wash barrel, the washing time was slowing me down. So I added another wash barrel. I went along for a while and decided to put the red oak and salt barrel in. Then I got the bus and added in the plumbing and pump for the WVO system. Now I am in belly deep with the conversion of the bus. I am also in the middle of training season with folks coming to the house for the dog training and clinics held all over the State. I aint about to start another project. I grabbed a tiger by the tail and I really can't let go right now.
Once I get the bus done and I get some lake, steak and Knob Creek (Favorite beverage) time in then I will get restless and call you on the telephone. If you don't mind I will rob your brain for some ideas about the salt treatment then. Well actually curiosity is creeping in. How long do you circle your oil in the salted water?
Oh for you already converted to WVO people. Give me some direction on an idea here. Once I put the hose on the hose barbs I bought, it aint coming off. So me thinking ahead (Lord help us all) I figured I needed a way to prime the WVO system and to relieve air from the system sisnce I am doing a closed loop on the WVO side. So after the 3 way valve in the return WVO line I placed a Tee with a 1/2 6 inch long nipple and a ball valve at the end of that. The nipple sticks straight up. So if I were to place a vaccum on the nippleI could prime the entire system. If any resiual air is in the closed loop it will get caught by the upright nipple as it passes under the openeing. Basically an air trap, the air bubbles would replace the oil in the nipple. Any time I need to prime or bleed the system I could restrict the wvo line after the air trap and let the engine's fuel pump force oil up and out the nipple. When done I just close the ball valve. I can only imagine when doing a filter change your going to get air in the system. With a closed loop there is no way to get the air out.
In the future I will look into doing the smaller surge tank which would eliminate the need for the air trap.
on your closed loop!!!
i would use a third 3port valve,so you can run as a normal system with return,so you can bleed all the air out while running.
then you can switch over to closed loop.
im not a fan of the closed loop!!!!
yes it will heat and filter the oil better,but on my cummins(where i ran a closed loop),i found that most filters will draw air when they get plugged before you feel it in power loss!
i have a sight glass on all my conversions,and you can see the level of the filter(how dirty) on the amount of air its pulling!!!!
yes i believed also that a fuel system thats not leaking,must be airtight.my sightglass has proven me thats wrong.
so if closed loop ,then with a third valve,that can be activated while driving to get air out.
also with a closed loop,your purge time to diesel will go up.
the fuel (wvo)has to be used,and then because you circle the mix in you loop it takes 5 to 10 times till your veggy diesel mix ratio is high enough.
i purge on a open system,and even after 5 miles on diesel,if i pull the filters there is a slight amount of wvo in the return.
you want to be sure your system is flushed,before the bus is parked for some time.as even very clean wvo will react with the injector parts.
my bus gets out every weekend,and i still make sure then when i come home i purge for 5 extra miles!!!
even companies like frybr.. (dont wanna show the full) that uses closed loop on cummins,uses the third valve to purge and in case they think there is air in the system to clear while running.
the detroit wont show fuel starvation on power loss,as other pump systems.
if you feel it ,its allready running with air for a long time.(that what i found)
again,
i use a sightglass to see my fuel inlet and outlet,and a pressure and vacuum gauge to monitor filter condition!!!! i like to have more input ,then not knowing whats going on!!!
my cents or maybe dollars
on closed loops
sightglass with vacuum gauge on inlet
pressure gauge before secondary filter
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins090-1.jpg&hash=916e43ac75b50851b2ebc1f291750335c154be83)
Very nice set ups!!!!!
Sorry I didn't have time yesterday on "Veru nice setups". Where did you get the sight glass? Did you use a regular vaccum gauge? Is it post primary filter? I would like to include these on mine as well. I can easily include the return to tank via valve. What I have now is a ball valve with a pex tube going straight up at the highest point in the WVO system. The pex then bends 180 degrees and runs out the bottom of the bus. My thoughts were to open the valve and let the air out until grease came out the tube. Your system sounds better with bleeding the air to the tank by electronic valve. As it stands now I would have to go back to the back and manually open the ball valve.
When you see air bubbles, as you say they happen more than we would think, how much volume are you seeing in the tube? The reason I ask is I have the 6 inch 1/2 inch nipple which will trap air. Once I get passed the volume amount of air in the nipple then air will circle through the loop. I can't imagine getting that much air in the system. If I do then I got a problem I need to fix. Your thoughts on this please for I am driving blind here.
Removed
WAL
the vacuum gauge i found at JEGS. its liquid filled as all the pressure gauges i use.
on you air trap!!
please look closer into the idea of a closed loop!!! the idea is that your fuel return is T ed into the suction side of the fuel pump,so all fuel returned will circle.that means your whole fuel loop (after the restriction orifice in the head) draws a vacuum to get new fuel!!!
to have your idea work,you would have to remove the orifice and set your t and balvalve to relaese air at that spot!!! everything after the orifice is vacuum,so more air will enter when you open your valve!
as for air,i will try to get a pic this weekend,showing the sightglass when running with a used filter!!!
there is always lot off tiny bubbles.
if you wanna do the return idea to get the air out ,you need a three port or two ball valves.
you need to get the fuel flowing back to the tank,and on the other side you need to close the t in front of the gear pump.
please draw down your fuel system and look at it,you will see what will be your problem.
(always remember,when running a closed system,there will be a vacuum behind the orifice)
if somebody else can get me some hints how to make and post a diagram here,i will do that!!!
NJD
yes you are right.
on dino i would use the pressure gauge behind the secondary.
the orifice sets your fuel pressure to about 15psi,when the filter gets bad it drops!
i use the same secondary filter for wvo and diesel.i know it slows my purge times,and there will be always some wvo disolved in the filter.i had some problems with pumps (on other engines)and injectors,when switching from cold diesel to 170F WVO.the plunger in the pump would expand faster then the body and causes it to seize!
in order to get these temp diffs a little slower,i run the same secondary on most of my systems.it gives a slight mix of the fuels on switch over,and the temp change takes a little longer.
maybe a detroit wont care,but i also dont know what the head passages would say when they get stone cold diesel after running all day 170F wvo.
with my pressure gauge in front of the filter,i can see how viscous (hot) my wvo is,and also if the pressure raises i know my filter starts clogging up.
on diesel i have 15psi fuel pressure before the secondary.
on wvo,even at 170F i have 20 psi in idle. (so much to wvo is the same as diesel when hot)(it only looks as liquid as )
if my wvo temp drops to 140 i allready have 28 psi and up.cold wvo will show 40psi etc....
thats just my way how i set it up,from problems i had.if i could get more space on my dash,i would measure even after the filter and .......so many ideas.maybe no time to drive,as i like to be in control!
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2Fwvosketch.jpg&hash=61619f002e82f121f9087cd5ef2626b995c53ae1)
The ball valve air trap is at the highest point in the wvo side. It has a PEX pipe sthat comes from it straight up bends to 180 degrees and down and out of the bus, wire tied in place. By restrictin twix the valve and the Tee and openeing the valve, the pump should push oil up and out of the pex pipe. It should only take a second or 2 to clear any air.
The outlines in red is the diesel side the other is WVO. "P" is primary filter "2" filter is secondary. The ----- is fuel to the racks. I have set up the same way as you have on the WVO and diesel both using the secondary filter.
If you see faults in my system I would rather take it now than later. Now I am parked at home later I will be on the road. Not questioning what your saying I can't for the life of me see the air not coming out of the trap with a restriction in the line between the air trap/ball valve and the Tee behind Heat exchanger #1.
I am waiting with baited breath for your input as this has been an ongoing project. Thank you for bouncing and exchanging ideas. This is all great stuff right here.
Quote from: Now Just Dallas on May 21, 2010, 08:50:52 AM
Question:
Why the pressure gauge before the secondary filter?
Secondary filter is a finer mesh than the primary and will plug up about 5X as often in my experience. (Of course, that's with Dino dew), I always put my gauge after the secondary and I can tell at a glance with a blip of the throttle that the filter needs changing.
What5 is going on BigD and I do mean Dallas. I believe he put the pressure gauge between the pump outlet and the secondary filter to measure the pressure of the fuel being forced into the filter. That is the only way I can make it make sense.
Quote from: NeoplanAN440 on May 21, 2010, 10:38:15 AM
NJD
yes you are right.
on dino i would use the pressure gauge behind the secondary.
the orifice sets your fuel pressure to about 15psi,when the filter gets bad it drops!
i use the same secondary filter for wvo and diesel.i know it slows my purge times,and there will be always some wvo disolved in the filter.i had some problems with pumps (on other engines)and injectors,when switching from cold diesel to 170F WVO.the plunger in the pump would expand faster then the body and causes it to seize!
in order to get these temp diffs a little slower,i run the same secondary on most of my systems.it gives a slight mix of the fuels on switch over,and the temp change takes a little longer.
maybe a detroit wont care,but i also dont know what the head passages would say when they get stone cold diesel after running all day 170F wvo.
with my pressure gauge in front of the filter,i can see how viscous (hot) my wvo is,and also if the pressure raises i know my filter starts clogging up.
on diesel i have 15psi fuel pressure before the secondary.
on wvo,even at 170F i have 20 psi in idle. (so much to wvo is the same as diesel when hot)(it only looks as liquid as )
if my wvo temp drops to 140 i allready have 28 psi and up.cold wvo will show 40psi etc....
thats just my way how i set it up,from problems i had.if i could get more space on my dash,i would measure even after the filter and .......so many ideas.maybe no time to drive,as i like to be in control!
When it siezed how did you unsieze it.
this was on a bosch ve injectorpump!!!
the shaft on these will shear of in this event,and the pump is junk then.
Did you see the sketch?
Junkin the pump aint good no matter how you slice on it. I should not have to worry about it for I am utilizing the second filter for both as you have done.
About that sketch:
There are three types of systems. Feel free to contradict anything I say cause it ain't as set in concrete as I might sound. Three! A single "Season" system has no heating for the WVO and will only run reliebly in the summer. The tropics is the usual haunt of the single. The three season can be used in spring, fall and summer in temperate climes. Then there is the one YOU NEED......the four season deal. To be a four season system you need to have the fuel tank heated cause while some oils work well down to freezing, such as Europe's mandated Rape seed, using WVO you will have other stuff in there that clouds or gels during even cool periods.
I think you WVO spill line shout dump into the WVO tank like the D system does. The WVO tank should be heated. The filter should be heated. Thye WVO lines to the engine should be heated. The return line should be, at least, heavily insulated. You need that multi plate heat exchanger. Maybe a smaller tank would get you into WVO mode sooner but you have to replace the WVO burned and that can't be done through lines full of gelled WVO no matter how hard you suck.
I don't think you want to feed the mech injectors oil tha is hotter than 180 cause DD went to a lot of trouble to cool them. Actually, I have always pondered why 180 didn't lunch the little darlins but it must be OK, based on results.
My two cents and I don't think you overpaid,
John, who by his own admission knows very little, but suspects a lot moe.
Hello John, I believe we are on the same highway when it comes to running VO with the exception o the return line. The diesel return line send unused fuel to the tank. Although not the only reason but part of it is too cool the diesel.
I intend to have very large tanks on the bus, 100 and a 200 gallon tank. I can in now way expect to heat this large amount of oil with block water. I won't need to heat it but for a month or two here or when I go north. I beloved my best option is a drum heater on the tank right at the pick up. That would heat it to whatever temp I set the thermostat to. From there my pex pipe carrying the fuel is inserted into a heater hose for protection and insulation.
I chose the closed loop so to raise filter life by not circulating the tank over and over.
hi,
the problem i see in your scetch,is that your t for the wvo closed loop is always under vacuum.(when engine running)
if i understand,your idea is to draw a vacuum there (engine off) till you have wvo without air.then close the valve and hope there is no more air in it!!!
i dont think that you will come away with it!!!!!!
every connection (threats or filters) will draw air over time.
also you will have a high vacuum on your wvo suction line.you will need 1/2" fuel line min and still if your wvo is not above 70F it will be hard to suck on a long distance!!!
to give you an idea.my fuel pump from the main tank to the surge tank,has to pump wvo thats at 70f or above.all my transfer fuel lines are insulated running on the inside of the bus.the pump is building up 45 psi to push it through the lines about 15feet long.
when at 70F it takes about 1 min for 1 gallon
i had the coach standing in the winter with no heaters,so the wvo cooled down inside.
when i started my trip again the wvo in the maintank was at 50F and it took 5min for 1 gallon.
thats amost what i burn while running.so i had to watch that the feed pump kept the surge tank full.
you will maybe come away in the summer months,without a heated fuel line or surge tank,but winter is coming fast.and you need the right inside diameter.
also i would consider a return for wvo and then set a third three port walve from the wvo return to the engine fuel pump inlet,for your closed loop.
as for filter life.the reason for closed loop is heat ,not filter life.
i thing the detroit will never have a problem getting the wvo hot enough.
fuel passages are in the head (almost like a heat exchanger)
fuel line to the injector run in engine oil (OK its only drip oil)but also the crankcase heat
injectors are cooled by coolant(in our case they heat our injector with the wvo)
that engine alone is like three heatexchangers.
the other argument,the fuel can get to hot,or the injectors get to hot!!!
how??? the system is using coolant,there for it cant get hotter then engine temp.
i dont believe that the 1-3 gallon a minute of fuel spill will make a difference if they are 70f or 170f.
(that my opinion,everybody has its stand on this side.detroit asks to use the fuel to cool,and even has a fuel heat exchanger on the return on some applications)
as for the single tank or unheated systems!!
when we did the single tank conversions in germany,we had approved svo.
it was checked to meet fuel standards.
(that was when the boom began and they started to open bio and svo fuel stations)
we changed injectors to a different spray pattern and pop off pressure.
changed timing
used longer glow plugs that reach deeper into the pre chamber
longer glow cycle.
that was the way to get away with cold start single tank
at winter you had to ad gas to reach the right viscous level!!!!
when the di engines came the problems began!!!!!!!!
also svo is a different animal then some wvo we get!!!
i would always start and pre heat on diesel,and flush (purge) on diesel,for the safety of my injectors and fuel pump.
my wifes 300sd runs two tanks,so if she has trouble,she can get home on diesel.
in the summer,starting on wvo is no problem,but at 50F and lower you see the difference how it starts on wvo to diesel already.and thats with some injectors that are modified and different timing!!!
just more input on what i learned over the time!
I have .5 inch ID fuel lines.
Right now I have no need for a heated tank as it is 80 and 90 degrees. In the winter I will heat the tank with electric heat.
I might be missing something on the closed loop. The vaccum part I spoke if was for the first time fire up. To prime the system. The ball valve will stay closed when going down the road. When I stop I can crack the valve open to allow fuel pressure in the return line to force air out the valve. Help me understand the diffeence of emptying the line into the tank or on the ground, momentarily. In other words it either goes one way or the other.
If I need a return line to the tank and another 3 way valve that won't be hard to install. A heated surge tank would not be hard to install either. My thick head just needs to get a handle on what your telling me.
look at your diagramm!!
when your engine is running,there is suction (vacuum) on all lines that are before the engine fuel pump!!
if you have your closed loop,there will be also a vacuum (suction)on the line (return from head) after the orifice.
if you open your bleed valve while running it will suc air in,not push fuel out.
you can only use your bleed valve when engine is off and all fuel valves in direction for wvo.
then you can apply vacuum to draw air and fuel out .
(not to handy when you have to do it while on the road)
also,if you install a new filter,you know how long it takes sometimes to fill and reprime it.
again
when engine is running
if you look at the first t coming from your wvo tank
the line that goes to the wvo tank will have vacuum (drawing fuel from tank)'
the line from t to heat exchanger will have vacuum (engine gear pump draws fuel trough all filter and lines)
the line that comes from the engine and your ball valve (air trap) yes there will be fuel return,but because the engine burns fuel the vacuum from the suction side of the pump is higher then fuel return.
thats how the principle of the closed loop works.
(the fuel amount the engine uses,is the vacuum it creates to draw in new fuel)
im running out of words!!!!
another try.
to empty fuel out of the bled valve while running,
you have to crimp (close-shut off) the connection between the ball valve and the t in your wvo incomming line.
then you have the return flow on your ball valve and can crack it open as if its returning into a tank.'
if you open the connection,you will get the vacuum from the t (suction side to the wvo tank)
and the engine will draw more air,then fuel thaty is coming from the other side.
Alright we are on the same page. I know where the cornfusion came into play. In the original post I wrote the line between the air trap and the Tee would be restricted when the air trap ball valve was open. I did not draw the restriction in the diagram. So the trap will catch the air, the in line ball valve will be closed as the air trap ball valve is being opened. Switching from one direction to the other. So the engine fuel pump pressure is either sending fuel through a closed loop or out through the trap, depending on ball valve positions.
Glad we found our way through that!!:)
AH HA!!!!!! Wal this s the final straw....so to speak. You have talked WVO and a couple different methods f Bio brewing. That spreads you over the board pretty well. I was thinking that you have only missed "BLENDING". For those that don't know there are guys out there that resolve the viscosity lowering and clouding PROBLEMS by mixing SVO or WVO 50% with GASOLINE. Got that? PG....Pump Gas! They cut that back to 20% in the summer. Well, we all thought the guys that burned WVO were nuts when we first heard about that, right? (OOPS! "nuts" may not be sufficiently PC for very few here so let's call them "gray matter CHALLENGED"). Those guys are called "Blenders" and there are more than a few of them. You can check them out on the Yahoo Group "BLENDERS". And you should see what they are blending together and how and in what they are running the stuff. Now here is Neo talking about doing the very same thing back in the Bad Old Days in Der Vatterland. I just can't be surprised anymore so if anybody out there has a whopper you want to try out ring me up. :-X :P ;D
I can't comment on all that Neo says but he makes sense to me. If the fuel pump is on the engine at the end of the fuel line and you have a good long run of viscous liquid then you will be drawing a vacuum of some sort. I thought the solution was that "you can push stuff easier that draw it unless, of course, we are talking about a string. To prime the system, install a pump (intermittant) at the tank pick up. To overcome some of the viscosity problems,do the same but keep it running. Everything seems to "out-gas" and a bubble of anything is a "air bubble".
John
Hello John. I am a fan of blending wvo and Dino diesel. Not a fan if blending gasoline with wvo. I have friends that have dine it for years, long before the bio scene came into play across the nation. What I don't like about the gasoline mix is just that, what if it separates while sittng and you send gas to the engine. Something can go wrong. With Dino d one need not worry. The other part is they are not heating the mix. They are essentially sending cold oil to the engine. Yes it is thinned to get throught he injectors/pump but what is happening to the cold oil? They shake their head and reply with "they don't care it is a 20 year old Mercedes they bought for $2000 years ago, who cares if I screws up". They have a point but just not what I want in a vehicle.
What Neo is talkin about I get. I got it all along we just were not on the same page. What I was not gettingwas the need for a surge tank in south Texas. I got it now being the length of travel from the tank to the pump will create a measure of Hg. Howeve high the Hg who knows but certainly higher than in the regular Dino d fuel line.
For now I am going to hook up what I have. I will probably install a third 3 way valve and a surge tank with the little pump to send the fuel to it. Once I get this done I can start on the surge project. I it does not work then I can still run on Dino d until I get the surge part done.
I no longer have the original ac unit in the right rear compartment. I can easily put the surge right there. Everything I need to hook it up is righ there as well.
I seriously looked into running wvo on my bus........ but sadly here in California I swear there are NO places that you can get it anymore unless you work in the industry. Commercial places are contracting all over and picking up the stuff and there are criminal penalties for just taking it. I studied and found out that the diesel engine was originally built to be run on peanut oil and will easily take most anything for fuel. One guy told me I could run this off "horse piss" lol. I am considering using used motor oil for fuel and running it thru filtered magnets. My only concern with doing this is that there is a type of fluid used in vehicles (off the top of my head it was hydraulic fluid) which could damage the engine. Picking up the used motor oil from backyard mechanics and garages would not be a problem, but it would be a problem that the hungover mechanic not being careful poured the wrong used fluid into one of my collection bins.
Wal,
Don't for a moment hear me putting anything down. It is all discussion for me and it bears fruit now or later!!!!!
I had a friend with a Ford D that had a station top of his D tank with gasoline. It ran "poorly" as you might imagine. That led to having the tank removed and cleaned and new injectors and a new pump. Had we only known that a solution was to siphon off half the tank and fill with WVO "for the WIN". Too soon old, Amigo. Too soon old. Would have saved him $2,500 in needless repair bills from another supposed FRIEND.
Hap,
Drain oil has sulphuric acid and water and non-ferrous metals in it as well as dirt particulate. It needs to be neutralized and dried and filtered. The allowable dilution ratios will be determined by the ambient and the weight of the WMO stock. It was common practice in the The Day to charge the fuel filters with ATF when they were changed at "reputable and conscientous shops". ATF costs money. Thery did that cause ATF has a lot of detergents for the injectors and, I'm led to believe, was and is synthetic oil that has a high scorch temp. Bottom line is that a mech D will run just fine on it and live if the temp thing is taken care of. I have heard that modern ATF has detergents in it that are harmful to the innards over the long run BUT waste ATF no longer has those detergents as they are spent. Why KNOWS for sure about this stuff????
write if you learn anything FOR SURE.
John ever in wonder
John, yes I was studying doing the atf and wmo. It would have been processed at my home in a couple tanks with a set somewhat like the wvo. But I stopped studying or seriously considering it when I realized how vulnerable I was to picking up fluids that were mixed with stuff that could actually hurt my engine. My brother makes bio and his wife works in a restaurant, Im supposed to make a trip out there this summer and buy a bunch from him at that time to supplement the fuel bill.
i wouldnt run wmo in larger concentrations!!!
i run hydraulic oil,atf on our mercedes and cummins,but on used crankcase oil i go not higher then 10%.
i have a lister single running as my back up generator.my main gen is a 12hp witte.the engine is very simple and can be taken apart in 1hr without problems.when running used crankcase oil higher then 20% ,i found a lot of carbon buildup.
also the synthetic oils tend to get you a lot of carbon and unclean burn!!
i still collect crankcase oil,but i use it for a waste oil boiler to heat my house via hydronic heating.
less hassle and worry to clean it.the oil burners have no wear parts that get affected by the quality of the oil.
the problem is the same as with wvo ,it takes some time to set up your collection route.also you need get some trust in the people that fill your collection barrels.lot of shops dont care if there is antifreeze with the oil,and you be stranded to clean and dry the oil.!!!!
now with the economy going down,i can see the effects first hand on the quality my wvo has.
restaurants do short cuts,keep the oil longer in,or use more shortening.......
Neo,
The WMO fired hydronic is a lagit subject for this board because of the number of Knuts that have Wabasto and other boilers. How are you doing that? Gun type? Mods? Heating oil? Syphon or pressure fed? OOOOO that is a good subject but I wonder at the periodic maint with the boiler.
EMAIL is good but lets see what the moderators say. Mikey is such a narrow minded stickler :o if you know what I mean. :-X
John
Here's a nice 7 KW Lister/Kohler
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2FListerKohler70Kw001.jpg&hash=85f5ab0fd8416a58e16408dbc391397487b964dd)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2FListerKohler70Kw008.jpg&hash=9f09e377316267e1698dbe00c08723dd9e252159)
nice lister petter!
here is the lister cs i was talking about
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Flister180.jpg&hash=fbf5150a34200cb43f6818175fbeb03d01814a6e)
and its bigger brother
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Flister1214.jpg&hash=a79e3fbfe8f570bf93db55b7887eeaed9800b06b)
I would just like to say I am loving this thread. I hope it gets archived somewhere. So far it has explained and covered tons of WVO systems and problems I had not yet contemplated. I may never run WVO but I may, and I am enjoying the thread. Good work guys.
It has been a good thread. I learned something about why one would use a surge tank. I will be looking fir one tomorrow.
Zub,
You don't need all the equip and installation you have been reading about to benefit. If you can collect WVO,wash it, dry it and filter it you can "mix" it in with D and benefit hugely. If you blend at 50% your fuel cost goes to half price. In the heat of the summer, now. No tanks, heaters pumps or fuel lines.....blending is the poor mans Waste Veggie Oil system. Wash it and dry it with a bubbler running in salt brine and then let it sit for ???? Filter and test it using the "hot plate" method. Store it in 5 gal totes with a shot of bactericide fuel additive and it keeps for a year. Fill your first tank on 50% and lug along as many totes as you care to for the trip. Hope to see you in Orygun next summer.....right?
Your drain oil is a know commodity to you. If you aren't cleaning and drying that and diluting your fuel no more than 10% with it then shame on you. I can't testify to this but long ago I was told that back in the day DD used to include the statement in their documentation that using "more than" 10% motor oil in the fuel would void the engine warranty. So 10% was SAFE as far as DD was concerned? The problem was feeding the fuel pump high viscosity fuel.....not that oil would foul the engine. Not if it is clean, dry and neutralized.
Doing both gets you down of 40% of the cost of a gallon of Dino D. Are we talking a long distance drive for summer or just more trips?
Find a site called "journey to forever" and get comfy cause it will take you a good long while to finish blissing out if you liked this post. Log onto Blenders(they are certifiable so be careful there) and the other sites on Yahoo Groups that deal with WVO and BioD using and making.
Ever hear of a guy pulling into a service station and getting a load of pump gas by mistake? Sure you have. Well the cure if that happens in the summer is to dilute that amt of pump gas with 80% clean WVO. In the winterdilute it with 50% WVO. Probem.....ALL GONE and you get to use the gas you were refunded and the cash for dropping the tank and cleaning it and replacing the DinoD that was in the tank. you know....when life deals you lemons you make blender fuel and keep on trucking. Make a big stink at the station though and "mums the word"....right?
HTH,
John