hey fellas, a friend of mine is in need.
I have a friend who has an RV, (i know - sticks and staples) but its a fairly nice one. Its a 1989 Safari Serengeti, made by Monaco, with a ford 460 carburated gas engine. He got it out of storage Saturday where it had been for 6 months, got i fired up after checking all the fluids and tires. Let it warm up for about 20 minutes, drove it to a gas station (15 miles) where he put in about 20 gallons of fresh fuel. He shut it down at the gas station, then after fueling, it fired right back up, said it was purring like a kitten which made him very happy. Drove it to the turnpike, got on, and got about 10 miles on the turn pike of smooth 65 MPH sailing, it was humming right along, gauges all looked good, no concerns and the thing just started to chug real rough, no warning. Went from hero to zero right now. he pulled over and it died. I drove out to meet him to see if i had any opinions. It will turn over, but will not fire....it almost fires, i mean its right there, wanting to fire and does kind of but not enough to get it running. I need some opinions and diagnosis to start the trial and error process of figuring it out. No fluids leaking out anywhere....no tell tale signs that says "right here is the problem". It probably ran for over an hour with no issues - then died. She was then towed home.
thanks,
Greg
The first thing that comes to mind is a fuel filter, next is fuel pump.
sounds like elect failure..check to see if you have consistent start...2ND ck to see if you have a steady fuel flow(could have stirred up trash in tank )and clogged filter or carb needle valve. 3rd ch choke pull off.(make sure choke is staying open when running) first three I would eliminate..
One of Ford's better ideas that RV has a booster fuel pump somewhere close to the fuel filter besides the ones in the tank should be on the drivers side change that pump and you should be good too go cost about 120 bucks from your local Auto Zone
good luck
Quote from: Len Silva on April 12, 2010, 06:44:44 AM
The first thing that comes to mind is a fuel filter, next is fuel pump.
Another possibility considering it was setting through the winter, a rodent/bird nest clogging the air filter. It might have been lodged in the air intake at first, allowing sufficient air flow. Then broke loose and pretty well plugged up the filter.
Check for spark & that the electrical is operating properly.
Dad had a similar problem that was caused by a faulty ignition switch.
Cost us nearly a dozen tow bills & an equal number of useless tuneups for several years before I was forced to figure it out in the rain, 1500 miles from home at one of those gas stations you wouldn't stop at if you had any other choice. All while blocking the fuel pumps . . . ;D
I'd also check the fuel lines & fuel flow from the fuel tank - may be some nasties in there - or a cracked suction line at the top of the tank.
BTW, since it is carburated, any rubber in the fuel system may not like the ethanol & have reacted with it.
Good luck & let us know what the culprit is.
It is not a carburetor engine has a throttle body and requires fuel pressure
good luck
Oh, I thought that since he said it was carburated, that it had been changed. Lots can happen in 21 years . . . ::)
But, if it is throttle body, Clifford is right. It needs fuel pressure to work.
Checking the fuel pressire should be one of the first things to do.
I still have a 87 ford ton service truck and it has a carb and a choke pull off..choke stays closed when it fails and cuts off air 460.on 2nd choke pull off in 5 years. easy test just prop choke open.
What is an easy way to check fuel pressure?
Greg, is that a forward engine or the 460 on John Deere chassis with the engine in rear (a pusher)
good luck
Crank the engine over with a spark plug disconnected to see if you have "spark"
If you don't>> It's most likely the "ignition module"
If you have spark, check for fuel>> fuel filter was changed?
If you have spark and fuel.. Depending on the miles on the engine the timing chain/gear could need replacing.
Fords were famous for ignition modules having problems. You do need to isolate the main problems first. I believe you stated it had a carb and not fuel injection. Look down the throat with the air cleaner off and give it a pump. Gas should squirt into the throat. If not you can pour a little gas down the throat and see if that makes her fire. Then you'll be thinking fuel pump. If all is well then check for spark. The ignition module is fairly easy to unplug and have checked at a parts store. On pickups they were generally on top of the inner fenders. Good luck....
I'm with the fuel filter/pump - They notoriously used small inline filters on those 460's considering the MPG - mine had the same size filter as a pickup, but they run 3 times the fuel through them on a MH - If it has the electric fuel pump by the tank and has been sitting for a while they can heat up or been contaminated (check to see if the fuel line is pressurized past the pump) - If not I'd try hitting it with a hammer and see if it will unfreeze it (has worked for me before) - HTH
Might be a long shot...but I had a friend who's pick up did just about the same thing. He stopped for gas and then got about 10 miles down the road before it started spitting and coughing and then died. Come to find out he was at one of those combo pumps with gasoline and diesel fuel at the same pump. You guessed it, he grabbed the wrong hose and put 10 gallons of diesel into his tank INSTEAD of gasoline.. He didn't realize it until after it had been towed to the shop.
I'm fairly certain it was gas....but it wasn't me driving. I just re-asked the question.
I spent my lunch hour with the big gir,l and it appears to have good fuel pressure....pump is on and when you put the gas peddle down, she sprays in the 2 barrels real good.
The first spark plug a pulled, I effing broke. Figures. He's going to pick up 8 new plugs, a case of oil and some Lucas conditioner for gas and oil. It appears that the 100 times she's been cranked to start, there seems to be quite a bit a fuel in the oil pan. I hope this is just from being flooded and not from a hole in the piston or somthing stupid. I picked up a compression tester and a spark tester from my mechanic at my construction shop, along with some pointers. I hope to more tonight after i get off of work. I'm leaning more towards the ignotion and no spark thing. By the drivers explanation...it acts like it ran out of gas...or lost its spark.
I'll know tonight after work if i have spark and compression.
I had 2 vehicles that would try to start but wouldn't. They would spin over good and fire but not quite enough to run. Both times it was a timing chain/gears. Both were V8 gas engines. Only difference both failed when shut down. They ran fine when shut off but would not start. I think the "reverse load" when shut down made worn chain/gears jump time. When checking everything else, you might want to also check the timing. Jack
Yeah jack, I've seen that too. In my experience, if it jumps timing while running, it shuts down right then with some unpleasant fan fare. :(
If it has jumped timing, the compression will be low.
On our ford van, the ignition switch would disconnect the power from the ignition module as it was moving from 'start position' to 'run position'. That was a difficult thing to catch - I was using a cheap analog volt meter to see what the voltage was as Dad was trying to start the engine. It would crank over & start firing, but die when the key was released.
Two short pieces of wire & a wirenut found on the ground put us back on the road. I got a new ignition switch a few days later & the problem was resolved. That van was rough on the ignition switches - would only last a year or two. We ended up keeping a new one in the van so we could replace on the spot instead of waiting for a tow.
I hope the solution is as painless as possible. ;D
Might try throwing a new rotor and cap on it (cheap fix) - FWIW
As Scott and I mentioned>> From previous Ford owners.. Check for spark>>if you see no spark you have a "high" chance that it's the ignition module. Timing chains in these engines are "common"
Gas engines need 3 things to run-Spark, Fuel, & Compression (in the proper sequence). Check the easiest first, is it getting a spark?, Is it getting fuel to the cylinders? (wet spark plugs after cranking, Does it have compression? Jack
My 91 Southwind on a Ford F53 chassis, 460 engine, experienced similar symptoms. Ford used an in-tank fuel pump that was notorious for problems. They made several revisions on the pump. I went with an external pump; left the original in place. I've got photos of how I did it. But, my problem happened when outside temp got high, and fuel in the tank (which cooled the fuel pump) got low. No problems since the modification, maybe 4 years ago.
Having said that, I'm on this forum anticipating a change. My wife said (I think) go for it, with 2 provisos: the conversion must be in a timely fashion, and the bus must be in good shape. Oh, and I have to find the m on ey. :) :)
My '77 Lincoln Continental with a 460/carb did just that exact thing after it had been sitting for a long time, drove it about 6 miles before it started losing power and then quit.
Turned out to be a stuck automatic choke.
That could explain all the gas in the pan.
After reading more, it's the module. Unplug it and have it checked at a parts store. Even bad ones that still let the motor run didn't do things they were supposed to. If it checks out ok it could be a rotor or cap. Bad wires and plugs would make it run rough but not just quit running. Rotors will short out and make everything come to a standstill..... If it was the choke stuck it would have not been running so good before it quit. It's the module.
Tonight I'm stopping by with a replacement ignition module. Last night we checked for spark and had some, but I don't believe its a strong spark...or up to par for what it should be. If its not that....then checking for compression. I just can't imagine that he lost rings or a piston in a matter of seconds with out any smoke fan fare and major grumblings out of the engine followed up by fluid loss. I would think it woiuld be tough to be running down the road 65 mph, have parts start to break and nothing come apart. But Ford tough does say alot!! This unit has an automatic choke... - but wouldn't that be the butterfly on the carb?? i can look right down on it and see that its not stuck. Its turning over, just got not getting enough fire.....to fire.
If it has spark & fuel, it sounds like timing to me.
But that said like others have said usually timing "CHAINS" jump on shut down, not rolling down the road.
However timing belts are notorious for breaking "on the fly" and trashing heads, valves, pistons, etc.
I too have had chains jump when shutting off! Once I backed a wrecked 1 ton in the shop that supposedly "had a fresh 350 Target crate motor in it" to pull the engine for my tow truck. After backing in I shut it off, but then decided to swap places with the tow truck and it.....yup you guessed it no start!
Good thing I found out it was junk before pulling it and installing it in the tow truck!
;D BK ;D
Another thing that got us on that 460 in our van was something causing the safety pin securing the distributor drive gear to shear. Afterward, it would make spark - just not when it should since the gear was slipping on the shaft.
To check for this - remove the distributor cap & see if you can turn the rotor by hand.
Since the distributor drives the oil pump, I finally conceded to check the oil pump to see if it was causing the problem. It was, even tho it had great oil pressure.
I hope this ain't your problem.
I had heard that you should never remove the oil pan unless you want to learn something you didn't want to know. I found a piston skirt. :(
If you can see the butterfly open it can't be the choke. Also it ran too long for the choke to be the problem.
Mine ran very well with a stuck choke but for only about seven miles since it was cold and the choke wasn't completely closed. I just popped it open with my finger and it ran fine.
well....its not the ignition module. Plugged in a brand new one, and no change. purchased a new distributer cap and rotor.....no change. replaced the spark plugs.....no change. Went as far as to manualy pour gas into the carburator (trying to eliminate fuel pressure/pump problem) no change. The rotor does not turn by trying to manuly twist it....but it does turn when trying to start it.
I fear it is something to do with the timing now....or something worse. To get to the timing gear and chain will take a major dismantel of the front of the RV and engine.
Lets refresh:
new distributer cap and rotor
new spark plugs
It has spark
It has gas
It has compression - or at least i'm 99% it does. We have a compression checker, just haven't done that yet.
it turns over and is all but started.....
it ran for over an hour at cruising speed and without warning just gave up and died without fanfare....hero to zero.
She's definily being difficult
any way to check timing without tearing the rv apart? anyway to know if it is for sure the timing. I'd hate to recommend getting to the timing chain to find it chiny and clean and nothing worng.
Compression check will reveal if the timing chain has jumped.
If all cylinders are low - it has jumped.
If a cylinder is zero, not usually an easy thing to fix.
Check voltage to the ignition module while cranking the engine & as you release the key fron 'start' to 'run'.
Have you used a timing light as you are cranking it over?
To verify timing is off, crank engine by hand till # 1 piston is at top dead center (TDC) on compression stroke. You may have to remove valve cover and watch valves to make sure the piston is on the compression stroke. With # 1 piston @ TDC, the rotor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug wire and the timing mark on the harmonic balancer should be pointing at the TDC mark on the engine front cover. Jack
If you have 2 fuel tanks on the RV it will have 3 fuel pumps and you are not going anywhere till you have the correct fuel pressure I have one same year model been there done that.
good luck
We have plans for the manual check for TDC and timing tonight. not sure how simple it will be to see all that behind the radiators and coolers, but were going to try.
Haven't tried the timing light while cranking, cause i didn't have one until this morning....and was told it probably wouldn't work unless the engine was actually running
checking the voltage at the ignition module has not been checked yet either, but will tonight.
only one big fuel tank, with fuel pump mounted outside the tank and inline filter on the frame rail.
the whole fuel pressure thing has me baffled also. I can't see how fuel pressure has anything to do with it actually starting. turning the key on, fuel pump operates and when you pump the gas pedel it squirts fuel into the carb....the thing should at least fire up, and then I can see where while running, the fuel pressure would have an effect, but not trying to start it. cause just turning the key on, doesn't make fuel start to dump into the carb...pumping the pedal does. the fuel pump should just be pressurizing the line. I think us dumping fuel directly into the carb and still not getting it to fire has eliminated that from the equation....I think.
changing the spark plugs last night i expected to see all 8 plugs to be soaked with gas, but i'd say only 4 were, 2 on each side. i found that a little strange for as many times as we've tried to start this thing with no luck....i assumed i'd have a half inch of gas in each cylinder sitting on top of the piston. its to the point when if fires....i'm kind of scared!!!
Coil? Generally they either work or not. Even if you had weak spark it works. Where did you get the new module and did you have the old one checked? (I know, I know.... I'm pig headed!!!! ;D) I replaced one once and the new one was bad. Sure hope it isn't the timing chain. I'll bet that's a bear to change in an rv. Bad enough in a pickup. Speaking of pickups. Distributor pickup?
You need to check the fuel pressure if that is truly a 89 model 460 it is a EFI engine and requires 32 to 40 lbs of pressure and the fuel pump is in the tank the one on the out side is the booster pump that is the same chassis as a F350 Ford truck or van and it will not spark without the correct fuel pressure
good luck
I think he has stated that it is a carb Cliff.
ok boys....we found the problem.....and it is..............the distributer. I stated early that we put a new cap and rotor on it and at that time I tried to spin the rotor by hand and couldn't. Well it seems I had a skirt on and just didn't put enough force into. Not ever having to do this, wasn't sure. But yesterday we dove into the TDC project and pulling off the dist. cap, I thought I might just try to spin it again. Feeling a little more frisky, grabbed it and sure thing, the rotor turned about a half inch.....then I spun it about 90 degrees and then I knew what the problem was. We found TDC, found the number nothces on the cam arm. and lined them up with the pointer, then pulled out the distibuter and there she was....a shattered shear pin. The distributer shaft still spun like a brand new one and the gear was tight enough on the shaft that when you cranked the engine it the gear still spun the shaft, spinning the rotor....still giving me spark. Just spark at the wrong time.
I feel a lot better. I just hope this is 100% of the problem and not 50% of the problem. I'll know in a few days. Having him order i new gear and pin. The gears pin holes were oblong and looked like the gear fins were worn slightly. for $40 or less i recommended replacing it. the distributer itself seems just fine.
hope this play by play will help some other people in the future - and if anyone wants to why this most likely happend - The owner/driver has a bad habit of using starting fluid to help get it started. I've warned him repeatedly that its not necessary with a gas engine...just need to be patient. He was impatient and coupled with a not fully charged battery - i believe sptayed her 3 to many times along with pumping a large amount of gas into her....I think when it finanlly fired and sent a 4' flame out of the carb, thats when the shear pin fractured. The small atomic explosion was to fast and to much. It didn't completely break, and it took about an hours worth of driving before it finally let go. That is my guess how this all played out. luckily AAA with the RV option payed off the tow at no charge to the owner and a lot of question asking and a few friends with ideas and a little knowledge - this didn't cost an owner thousands of dollars of mechanics fees.
thanks everyone for your help....I'll be hanging around.
Greg
I don't think the starting fluid had anything to do with it. The flame was a result of excessive fuel still burning in the cylinder when the intake valve opened.
The camshaft turns that gear on the distributor shaft which, in turn, drives the oil pump. If there is something in the oil that caused the pump to hesitate, it will overload the shear pin.
I'd try the new gear & pin, but I'd get a few extra pins, so if it happens again, you don't have to wait for parts to arrive. . .
Also, if it happens again, you will need to investigate the oil pump. . . .
Good luck!
I have had this happen to me on a 351 cleaveland. I installed a new pin and shaterd the gear. Then I was told to check the oil pump. And yes it was locked up. I took a 3/8 socket on an exstention and was able to turn it back and forth to break it loose. Installes a new gear cleaned out what I could of the old gear and the car is still running today. This was 15 years ago. CHECK OIL PUMP FIRST BEFORE YOU REINSTALL. You can prob put your distributer back in with out the gear and the rotor should turn freely. I was driving mine when it happend too.
interesting...i will for sure try to turn the shaft for the oil pump before reinstalling...great advice. thanks.
I'll repost my findings after we get her back together.
greg
Well I'm happy that you found the problem. Some things that might make that happen, is oil too thick (too much oil additive) over riving the engine when cold. The oil pump puts a lot torque on the roll pin and gear pushing thick, heavy oil. HTH_ Glen
Congrats on a simple fix. Sure beat the timing chain!! I had a buddy who had a 6 cylinder Ford pickup that sheared the pin every once in a while. Everytime it did it backfired and blew his muffler apart!! Kyle wins the award for the right guess!!
I can easily see how starting fluid could cause that problem on a gasser.
A much better starter for gassers is spray carb cleaner, it isn't nearly as powerful but will do the job just as well.
The gasser is running, once we figured out that a previous owner did some adjusting somewhere, and that the yellow marks on the distubeter and cam arm really was TDC and correct rotor placement, she fired right up. That was a good feeling of success. The owner will now change oil and filter, and take her for a sping to make sure the distrubuter doesn't need anymore fine tunning. Oil pump spun freely with rathced and socket. I think she's good to got.
again, thanks everyone. All opinions helped the process of trial and error.
Greg
Greg, glad to hear it is 'on the road again'!
Quote from: gus on April 15, 2010, 08:09:40 PM
I can easily see how starting fluid could cause that problem on a gasser.
A much better starter for gassers is spray carb cleaner, it isn't nearly as powerful but will do the job just as well.
Gus, please elaborate on how starting fluid can cause the failure of the distributor drive gear shear pin. I must be missing something as I'm at a loss to see the connection.
Starting fluid usually has 'upper cylinder lubricant' where carb cleaner usually removes oils & varnish. Seems that would cause more long term problems with ring sealing.
Actually I've heard that WD 40 used to work well also years ago. It seems they have changed their formula and it's not so good now.
Kyle,
Ether is so highly volatile that it can easily make an engine kick back because it ignites so fast. I've heard a few tales of it completely destroying an engine. Of course this only happens when too much is used.
Carb cleaner is much less volatile, never heard of it doing any damage, but it doesn't work on diesels - at least for me. Once the carb cleaner kicks the over engine the gasoline takes over. It works well to check to make sure the ignition system is working. If it won't kick over on carb cleaner you ignition is very weak or non-existent.
The amount of carb cleaner used in starting is so small there is no way it can damage the cylinder walls, it may even clean out the carb in the process. I've seen mechanics flood a carb with it while the engine is running. Never saw the point and I don't do it.
I've never had any luck starting an engine with WD40. I don't even buy it any more since the formula and spray nozzles were changed.
WD40 used to use propane as the propellant which is probably why it worked as starting fluid. They now use CO2 as the propellant.
I can possibly see it if poor gasoline caused the engine to 'diesel' or run backwards after it was turned off.
I think the excess use of starting fluid can certainly damage an engine, but I can't for the life of my own engine see how it could shear that pin. There is too much other mass in the way that would have to move too quickly - the piston pushing the crank turning the cam (at 1/2 the speed) & then still have enough left to shear that pin . . . . ? ? ?
I can see broken rings, pistons & cranks, cracked heads or cylinders, bent connecting rods, or blown head gaskets. but not that.
But I have been surprised before & hope to again - just not soon! ;D
I'll bet that 360 smokes when you first start it when its only been shut off for 30 min or so. It also smokes costing down hill. The valve seals are gone the pieces drain back into the pan the can be small enough to get by the screen on the oil pump pickup. That is what locked the pump and broke the pin. Look in the bottom of the drain oil you may find some of the bigger pieces of the heat hardened rubber seals. The cam drives the distributor the dist drives the pump
Ben there done that
Rick 74 MC-8