Well, I wish this was an April Fools post, but sadly it is not.
Perhaps I should blame this all on TomC!. We have driven over 50K miles and the only problem I have had with the AutoShift has been a loose connector. In a recent thread, TomC mentioned that there his dealership has had some issue with the AutoShift. My bus must have read that post and took it as gospel. The following are some modified excerpts from my blog.
Yesterday as we drove through Pueblo, CO, we noted that the transmission did not down shift as we slowed down. We made it through town OK in tenth gear and then continued on to this rest stop. I did quite a bit of trouble shooting and determined that the transmission computer had failed. I had a backup computer, but it was at home. I have been carrying the replacement parts with us for the past several trips, but in the rush to get on the road for this trip we left them home. We were a bit over 100 miles from the house so we decided to unhook the service truck and drive to the house to get the computer. We left at 12:30 and arrived back about 5:30 after taking a detour to for a stop to get a backup disc from our printer who is going out of business.
The next day we took off and the transmission would not shift. The transmission has gone into limp mode where it will not shift. I did quite a bit of diagnostic work with my Pro Link computer reader and called the local Eaton transmission representative, a very helpful person. We did quite a bit of trouble shooting, and we are both very puzzled as to what is going on, but we have no alternative but to be towed home.
Being towed home is no fun. I will start a thread on that subject later.
The problem is solvable, but will take a lot of trouble shooting and exchange of parts. Fortunately I have access to all of the electronic parts. Just more work.
Jim
Well Jim , Iam sorry to hear of your problems , at least you were a little closer this time . Good luck and hope your on the road soon
Jim, have you told Sonnie about this yet lol
good luck
Hi Clifford. No, I have not called him to hear the "I told you so". Still having Internet problems, so I have to fight that dragon first. Doing this at the library.
Jim
Sonnie and both know how you electronic guys get that great fuel mileage LOL but I hope you get it worked out without any big expense man you got more patience than I do when it comes to electronics.
good luck
Jim,
As you know I'm installing an Eaton Ultrashift with my Series 60 swap. I think the Ultrashift is very similar to the Autoshift except the Ultrashift has a centrifugal clutch. I spoke with a local fleet owner who has about 70 trucks, 16 of which are Ultrashifts. He has had some problems with XY shifter motors going bad, then with a few weeks the trans computer will fail. To me this would indicate lower voltage output from the switching transistors, or just higher amperage draw from the motors because of wear either way the result will be higher amperage draw from the XY motors. The motors are replaced and the switching transistors in the TCM are already weak and fail shortly afterward. I don't have a service manual yet for my transmission, but I don't see any external relays for controlling the XY motors, so that means they are switched by the controller. My previous experience is that when an ECM or maybe TCM in this case switches a reasonable heavy amp load they don't hold up very well. I haven't measured the current draw of the XY motors, but I'll bet it over 10 amps. It takes a serious switching transistor to handle that load. Not to mention the heat generated by the transistor. I'm considering adding external 20 amp relays that will be control by the same output that controls the XY motors. Instead of the TCM switching transistors driving the amp load of the XY motors all they have to do is drive the relay coils. Of course this is all just a guess.
Ken
Jim, Sorry to hear of your problems. Hope you get it fixed and you can continue your trip.
Paul
I deal with computers every day at my job. PITA ! I think I will stay with my mechanical 6 speed Spicer after all. Just the way I feel, more electronics more problems when something fails.
Jim, sorry to hear you are having more problems.
Computers and electronics have for the most part greatly improved our society, but there are some negatives too. The postives mostly outweigh the negatives. 20 years ago a lot of us were tied to a desk computer and an office, but now we can work from just about anywhere. There is the downside of working more hours and always being reachable.
Thanks for the comments. I always seem to push the envelope and every once in a while I pay the price. However, in the past few months I seem to have really been punished by the computer gods :D
The current issue should not be a killer, but it will take time to work through the trouble shooting process.
At least now it is home and I can pick away at it as my metal state permits :o
If any of you folks who favor MUI put a hex on me, will you please remove it :) :)
I have made the observation several times, but all of my problems began right after I obtained "classic" plates for the bus. I think she took offense at that classification!
Jim
Jim does your towing company have a frequent hooker discount?
Sorry - couldn't resist. I feel your pain. And I agree with Clifford - you have way more patience than I do.
Hey, I'm just glad your engine still runs good!
Really sorry to hear of your problems, but it makes me feel about the furnace not working & having to pay extra for electricty at Albuquerque.
BTW I really enjoyed your seminar, good info! Left a day early to avoid the next storm & it worked.
Good luck.
Jim
Jim,
So sorry to hear of your latest bus problems, man it is starting to scare me at my creeping age just how much I will get to enjoy our bus if I ever do. I will not install the electronics and engine upgrades you have had the courage and knowledge to do, I just will use our ole Eagle as the way she was born and take my time getting from place A to Place B. I know you are looking for more performance etc. especially where you live and understand that, and also your knowledge as an engineer or if you aren't one you sure should be one with all you have done & know. I will keep ours as simple as I can for maintenance and without depending upon a lot of sensors that I admit are great when they work great, but man, I would not have your patience with the problems like you have experienced in the past year, you got to be one heck of a guy. What I should be saying is you are one heck of a guy.
Good luck with this, sure miss you guys and hope to see you on the East Coast again soon. Stay safe.
Gary
Didn't you just replace the ECM on the engine. This might be a good place to start trouble shooting. My rig is all mechanical and I am no expert but when troubleshooting I always go back to the last thing replaced andstart there. Good luckeither way and I do admire your tenacity.
Bob, you sure made Pat and I laugh (a rare commodity right now).
Ken and I talked about his thoughts on the relays. I mentioned that they needed to have diodes. Not sure how all of that would work.
I called Sonnie today so that he could get in his licks :D
James, I am pretty sure that it is not the engine ECM. I have checked for codes there and no issue. The J1939 seems to be communicating with the transmission ECM, so I am pretty sure it is in the transmission system. I am picking up a loaner trans ECM tomorrow and will start playing with the system next week. One problem with the AutoShift, is that it throws all kinds of codes if the connectors are not well connected. The ECM I installed looked like it could use a good dose of contact cleaner, but I did not have any with me. Might just be that simple.
Gary, I really did not do this conversion to obtain more power. My 6V92 split a head and it was cheaper to do the conversion (at least the first time >:(). As it turns out, I probably need the power. I am at about 46K pounds with the service truck. The 6V92 would have really struggled with that load - especially with the "hills" out here.
As I mentioned in my engine conversion article, I have really benefited with the mileage. I have averaged 7.7 MPG over 54K miles. My conservative calculations suggest I have saved about $4000. Now with the second engine, I will have to drive a bunch to pay for that cost.
It is sure to nice to drive the bus with all the gears and good power. Now, I have to figure out how to avoid the "hooker charge" 8)
Jim
jim, if it wasn't for bad luck, you wouldn't have any so it seems. Maybe this Easter will resurect your beast and get it working again without gremlins. make sure you go to church sunday.
i'm almost to the point where i'm ready to buy tire guages just to get you some money. if i only had any to share i would.
Good luck.
Jim your not alone dad's 05 took a ride on a tow truck this weekend too!
He was just cruisin' along on I-55 SB when it just "shut down" no warning nothing! Had a Detroit Diesel technician come out and check it out and he said "whatever it is I can't find or fix it here so it'll need towed!"
As they were dropping it at Clarke Power Services in Memphis the "tech" & the wrecker driver have decided "that it was most likely an Allison issue!"
Seems the wrecker driver could not get the trans to "release" in-order to roll the driveshaft over to unbolt it! So he had to use lower the jack and use the wrecker to "roll the bus" and when he was telling the tech from Clarke about it. The Clarke tech said "so that explains why I couldn't find any issues with the ECM, it's in the tranny!"
FWIW
(are we having fun yet? ;))
;D BK ;D
Jim, with all you have been through, I would suggest staying away from Hookers...it only makes things better for a little while and then it gets even worse!
Lucky to find a loaner ECM
BK not sure about the having fun >:(. I see that you had a good event, so maybe that bodes well for me.
DaveG, Pat gave me the same advice ;D ;D
I was indeed lucky to have a friend that has an old AutoShift for his new Eagle project (Rusty). He has a new unit for the project and this was a surplus unit. I will use it for the trouble shooting process and take in on the next trip to ward off the bad luck gremlins :o I will start the process later this week weather permitting.
Jim
Inquiring Minds want to know out come????????
Hi Robert. Rest assured that I will ALWAYS post the results of my "challenges".
I have had to divert my resources to some other projects. I did pick up a third transmission ECM from a friend and will use it in the trouble shooting process.
My next scheduled trip is mid-May, so I can procrastinate a bit. I don't believe this is a huge problem. I think it will involve some good old fashioned testing and replacing a few parts as a part of the testing process. I think that will be a straight forward job (yeah, right).
One of the projects I am working on is the hydraulic system for the cooling fan for the air to air cooler. That will also let me operate the jacks. The jacks will let me easily get the rear end off the ground and onto blocks so that I can do some trouble shooting in the shop before I drive it.
The transmission threw the code within 20 feet, so I should be able to do some testing on blocks.
My hope is to get the testing started late this week or early next week.
Jim
Jim I just bought a 60 serries with the same trans..soooo for future unforseen problems I'm ready for a education...the unit I purchased has been together as a set up from day one..not pushing just curious..hope it is simple. happy bussing Bob
Hi Robert. I saw that you were getting the same setup. Hope you got the shift tower and all of the electrical parts from the driver's area. If not, it can be pretty expensive.
Both of my engines were not set up for the AutoShift. That is not a huge deal, but you are way ahead of the game to have them designed from the get go to be together.
If you have not been to the Roadranger website, you must go there. They have the full blown manuals (several) for free. You can start here and then poke around: http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/servicesalesliterature/LiteratureCenterResults/index.htm?&pt=OW_GL_RR&target=1162919212424. (http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/servicesalesliterature/LiteratureCenterResults/index.htm?&pt=OW_GL_RR&target=1162919212424.)
You will enjoy the combination.
Did your coach have a clutch? If not, I can give you some thoughts on how to do that (some information is in my project pages).
Jim
thanks for info will definitely follow thru..coach did not have clutch....will be in touch...Bob
Robert, the clutch design options are pretty complex. Best discussed on the phone.
Jim
three zero three 478 35 zero 1
anytime 8 AM to 9 PM mountain time.
Jim-talked to my service manager today that also was the service manager at a Detroit Diesel/Allison repair store. On the Auto Shift-make sure you keep all connections clean and when you do replace your XY shifters, make sure you buy a new wiring harness also. Good Luck, TomC
Robert,
I also have an autoshift (GEN 1) in my MCI 96A3. I have it running behind a Cummins ISM. My bus was auto and therefore I had to add a clutch to my bus as well. I would also be willing to chat with you about my experience and what I would do differently on my clutch setup if I had to do it again. Feel free to call me if you would like to discuss 763 780 5979 or check out my website - the engine conversion page for pictures and thoughts on my project.
Robert, why reinvent the wheel Prevost had the best hydraulic clutch setup on the market use theirs it works
good luck
Clifford (and others), I have been looking at ways to change my clutch system. The big issue is that there is not much room between the dash and the front of the bus (at least on Eagles) to put a clutch pedal.
Can you (or anyone) provide more details about the Prevost clutch system?
I tried to adapt a Volvo truck hydraulic system, but was not successful.
Jim
Ahoy, All,
Clutches !!!! I know a LOT about clutch actuation, which I have written up previously here or on the Eagle web site. You may be able to chase it down. In summary:
1: An air operated clutch will NOT work OK with a modern double disc clutch -- Been There Done That. I'm now hydraulic.
2: If you use one wire hydraulic hose, allow for a travel loss due to diametric expansion --- I Now use 1/2" SS tube --- BTDT
3: IF you need to double clutch (I do -- some times) note that small tubes/hoses will probably be too slow. --- BTDT
4: If you want to speed - up the slow clutch by thinning the fluid, -- Plan on a slipping clutch because of cylinder friction holding-up the clutch. BTDT
5: And other stuff which I've forgotten.
Jim and I both know that being experienced engineers does not make us exempt from doing dumb things that we have to fix.
All - in - all: MARVELOUS entertainment.
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Bob, that one reason I suggested Prevost they did it for you from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder and even the line size.
good luck
off of Jims problem...Bob (Xl45E)going to autoshift...will use prevost factory set up.The passage front to back is installed already just have to add hardware and pedal...definitely the way to go for me...probably 3 weeks off from that project ;will let you know more about set up when it arrives...cost etc..
Where is a good source to get these prevost parts? Do I have to worry about cross contamination when I but them in my Eagle?
Thank You Wayne
First of all, I never expected to see this thread come back to the top so many times. Each time I read the part about "home on the hook", my heart skipped a beat, so I changed it ;D
All of us that have gone through this exercise (Brian Diehl, Bob Belter, Bruce Stude, etc.) have spent a lot of time talking about our present system and what we would change. It is simple to buy an automotive master cylinder and some sort of slave cylinder. Several of us are using Volvo slave cylinder and the matching clutch arm (very short throw). The issue is leverage. I played with three different size master cylinders trying to get reasonable pedal pressure (the old knees are not what they used to be).
Everyone that has tried a pure air system agrees that it just does not work. Brian uses a 12V vacuum pump and an automotive master cylinder with the large vacuum boost chamber. I think Bruce uses the same system, but with a 120 volt vacuum pump. Bob's system is very unique with a rather complicated air assist. I use a brake treadle valve and air brake chamber. Very easy pedal, but terrible "feel" (can't tell when the clutch is engaging). I have overcome that with my hand lever clutch system where I no longer use the lever to push on the hydraulic cylinder, but rather as an indicator of "clutch pedal travel". That is very clunky, but it works for me right now and I have gotten pretty good at smooth clutch engagement. However, no one else could easily drive the bus.
Brian and I have talked about use a hydroboost master cylinder. That system is a very powerful brake boost system that uses power steering hydraulic pressure to apply controlled force to the master cylinder. A reference is: http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/tech.html. (http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/tech.html.) It is fairly compact and has tremendous force multiplication. Many four wheel folks with huge tires make the conversion in an attempt to get adequate braking.
The issue that we faced, was "breaking" into the critical PS system. I am getting pretty close to having my hydraulic fan system installed, and I might think about using the non-priority side of the pump (fan side) as a source. The other issue is somehow making sure that the huge pressure capability does not damage any of the clutch linkage.
Bob mentions the use of tubing vs hose. If you use hose, you MUST use two wire hose so that there is no expansion in the long hose length. That way, you can also use larger size hose to avoid sluggish engagement.
Guess I better quit for now before you all go to sleep.
Jim
Jim we have a 10,000 winch that is hydraulic is spliced into the powersteering pump on our 550 ford.works great and doesn't effect steering.spliced into line between pump and power steering unit.
Bob, for some reason it is easy for me to picture tapping into the PS line in a car or relatively small truck. Indeed, it is an OEM installation on many vehicles. For the OEM installation, I would suspect the pump has both a priority and auxiliary system or some other system to make sure the PS had a hydraulic supply in the event of a hydroboost line failure, but I don't know that for sure.
However, I can't get my mind around a huge bus with no power steering. Yes, I know that there are lots of mechanical PS buses, but I don't know if a bus with a PS box (a different animal) could be steered effectively in an emergency. Probably no problem.
The other issue is altering the PS on a big vehicle might not look so good if a accident occurred and you were drug into to court.
Jim
I used a Volvo truck master cylinder under the floor behind the left head light. 1/4 steel brake line front to back & slave cylinder from a jeep. then add a air assist to it.It helped but then went to a hydro-vac booster with 110 V. pump for less noise. Bruce
more photos. Bruce
Jim, if you go the booster route I have a 12v Blue Line vacuum pump new in the box.
good luck
One of the things to note about Bruce's setup is he has the Eaton easy clutch. I however, have the standard truck clutch. The easy clutch is a very nice animal and changes the force dynamics. The farther you press on the pedal the less force it takes unlike the normal setup where it gets harder the farther you press in the clutch.
Brian, I also have an Easy Clutch. It was still very hard to push with my pure hydraulic system. I built a bracket for the Volvo pedal and MC. I had to modify the geometry just a bit. I did not think the change in geometry was significant, but the geometry is very subtle and the linkage arms are quite short. In any case, the pedal force just killed me (and I still have fairly strong legs for an old fart).
Clifford, in order to use a vacuum system, I would have to go back to some sort of clutch pedal system (as opposed to my air over hydraulic system). I keep thinking of a good way to do that. The closest I can come to a pedal mechanism is a clutch pedal pivoted under the floor close to the middle of the driver seat with a push rod and cranks down to the MC. However, all the electrical is there. I think that is how Bob's clutch is set up (model 1?). Thanks for the offer. Bruce has offered a vacuum pump like the one in his pictures.
Given all of the other issues I am facing, the clutch project seems to be far down the list.
Jim
I purchased a wrecked trucked with an Eaton Ultrashift and Series 60 that I'm installing in my 1988 Prevost. The setup has about 250,000 miles on it. I wish that I had put all those miles on it instead of the 5 or so that I did while it was still in the wrecked truck. Then I could give an experienced assessment of the durability and operation of the centrifugal clutch that is used in the Ultrashift. If I combine the demo ride I took in a new truck with the Ultrshift, the research I did on the truck forums and my 5 miles or so in the wrecked truck (which was mostly trying to simulate backing up to trailer or making sure it shifted through all the gears). I think I'm going to be pleased with the Ultrashift. It seems the clutch version could be a little smoother backing up, The Ultrashift was a little jerky in R1, but hardly noticeably in R2 and this was an unloaded road tractor cab/chassis only. I think the 40,000 lb bus will make it smoother, who knows it maybe worse. I'll know in another month or so. I asked myself, how often do I back up and hook to a trailer anyway? I know a clutch has some advantages. I had a bus with a clutch and shifter and I'm trying to avoid both of those components. I think if you want a clutch or a shifter then you should have either or both, after all that's why we have red ones, green ones, GMC ones, Eagle ones and so on. Jim, if you haven't found your problem yet, stay after it. let's keep those electrons flowing and keep making things as complicated as possible. One other thing Jim that I almost forgot. I using green pond water for antifreeze, it's cheap and available near most major highways hear in the south. I know it's the best, don't try to change my mind.
Ken
Ken with the Ultrashift you might want to have a starter over ride switch for starting up in gear because if it is shut down or kill in gear you might not be able to get back in neutral to start it back up (bound up in a gear). Bruce
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on April 15, 2010, 08:10:50 PM
I using green pond water for antifreeze, it's cheap and available near most major highways hear in the south. I know it's the best, don't try to change my mind.
Ken
Hey Ken, did you happen to include a green sludge filter in your coolant system? Those green sludge filters can extend the life of the green pond water another day or so. I've found them extremely worth while and carry about a hundred or so spares to "have on hand"! :-)
Ken
I am begining to think that the green swamp water is the reason i keep breaking heads on my 6v92.
Thinking about moving to clear spring water. Every one knows that spring water does not freeze.
uncle ned
Hmmm, Might try swamp water, ain't never seen it froze? Jack
All this time and effort to try to make the Autoshift/Ultrashift transmissions work properly. Our shop manager despises any of the Eaton Fuller Autoshift/Ultrashift transmissions. And considering how much time and effort is being used to try to make these transmissions work-wouldn't it just be easier to install an Allison World transmission and be done with it? There's a really good reason why practically all transit buses, trash trucks, on road buses, military trucks, many military tanks, etc use Allison transmissions. Because they are reliable, you can't beat the performance and acceleration from them, and they get consistantly the same fuel mileage. The ONLY advantage to the Autoshift/Utlrashift is the possiblity of getting better fuel mileage, and better low speed control because of the extra 4 lower gears just to get the vehicle moving-of which the Allison takes care of that with the torque converter. Any fuel mileage advantage you have with the Eaton Fuller Autoshift/Ultrashift will be out the door when (not if) the transmission breaks down and you have to call a wrecker to have it analyzed and fixed. I'll always put my choice on the Allison automatics. Good Luck, TomC
When choosing which transmission to put in recently, the Autoshift was not an option since I have a mechanical setup. We therefore went with an Allison over a manual. I had thought that the Autoshift would have been good if it would work. However, this thread has been very informative. I did not know that they were so prone to problems. There still may be advantages to it for an 80,000# loaded semi, but it would appear that putting one in a bus conversion is like trying to reinvent the wheel and coming up with a not quite round product.
The autoshift is just like anything else mechanical ... it can fail. However, mine has almost 600,000 miles on it and works flawlessly in below zero weather and 100+ weather. It has been a good transmission for me. YMMV
I decided on the Ultrashift for several reasons. It's the only thing that will fit without a complete redesign of the tag axle. I know a 740 might fit but you would kind of defeat some of the reasons for installing the Series 60 in the first place. (lower RPMs, higher fuel mileage, I hope) If I did redesign the tag axle then I would have to change the diff ratio to work with the overdrive ratio of the B500, the third thing is that the B500 is not know for it's longevity in the commercial coach side of the business. I figured any used B500 that I could find and afford would be from a seated coach and would be subject to fail on a day that I did not have $10,000 for the rebuild. Which would be any day ending in Y.
Installing a starter over ride is good ideal, thanks!!
Ken
Ken- one of the main reasons that the Allison B500 is short lived in a bus is because of the shallow oil pan for ground clearance. With the shallow oil pan, the oil level should be checked daily, since just a couple of quarts down can make a difference in performanc. Along with that, the transmission oil change intervals are considerably shorter than trucks, that can use a deep pan with alot more spare oil. With most of us, checking oil daily is just a routine-not an option. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, what about an additional reservoir? Or a larger air to oil cooler to increase fluid capacity?
An old friend of mine has been an Allison Sales rep for a number of years now and is counting the days to retirement...I asked about the B500 and it's problems and he seemed to think that the problems are behind them....whadda ya think?
I talked with a trucking company owner friend .He runs 46 trucks and started several years ago experimenting with the auto shift (Eaton) the results...Made his poor drivers better,increased fuel milage 30 %and cut down on maintenance...that helped make my decision.yes any system can fail:just ask BK..Fuel increase would help me keep on bussing when fuel goes Thur outer space..Besides I had no drive train to start with so tried to select best that I could afford...
I think a lot of guys are choosing the Autoshift because they are less expensive than a B500 or other World transmission and they can be found already mated to an engine and mostly ready to go.
Allison may have improved the B500, but most busnuts aren't going to be buying a new one. A lot of B500s don't seem to make it past 300,000 to 400,000 miles it seems.