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I guess we can figure out what has been going on in Franklin;)
Your points all seem valid...in case you need validation (which we all know you don't!).
I just had someone complain that he had trouble getting his 5th wheel in the spot Bryan and his family had. I told the man that I had just had a bus there and he said that buses are easy to park. He also told me that he should have been given a pull through and anyone with a motor home and towed should have to unhook and use a back in spot. We even have people with Class C's demand a pull through because they can't back in a spot. I understand that people, even us, don't want to pay a lot for camping but there is more overhead than many people realize, not the least of which is insurance to cover incidents that can happen. There is electric, taxes, land payment, upkeep, water, wifi, not to mention either a manger or camp host. Camp hosts don't get paid but they are taking a spot that could bring in $27.00 (in the case of our CG) every night and that spot would bring in almost $10,000 a year. Generally we get some nice people here but sometimes we get some that want to argue about the spot, the cost, the wind, the rain and other things that we have no control over. I never thought about any of this until we took this job but now I realize there really are two sides to camping.
No mention of Circuit breakers, Sigh! =P
Matt, I still don't know why you and Liz think you need electricity. ::) ;D
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 04:47:12 PM
Matt, I still don't know why you and Liz think you need electricity. ::) ;D
One Word .... TV
:P
When people show up with an attitude and confrontational argumentative approach at check in or or check out time don't you treat them REALLY REALLY nice and offer a discount or free nite at no charge or invite them to dinner???
I mean people like that are such a pleasure to be around I would think you would want them to stay a really long time and even ask them to give you advice on how to run your campground.
Now that I have taken my tongue out of my cheek -- maybe that is the reason those people live in a camper or motorhome because they have to leave REALLY REALLY often because they wear out their welcome REALLY REALLY quickly.
Just a thought.
Melbo
We have been full timers for just over one year. Have seen all kinds of people, as there are lots of stars! ;D Some just don't care, but the majority I have seen here do.
Most of the spots here are taken by guys who work in the wind farm field, lots of them going up around here. They keep up their outside areas pretty clean for the most part, you do see a few who don't.
We've even had the owner/manager state he's had a few pull in, then leave the next day without paying. He just doesn't get too excited about it.
We have 100' pull thrus so backing in is not an issue. Some folk just want to go forward because they can't back up a lawnmower. They don't want to show the world how bad they are as they attempt it.
Some are grumpy, others are very pleasant. You will get all kinds. Just go to a any eating establishment, some leave a mess, others stack the plates for the server.
The people who park don't care what your expenses are, they feel they are paying too much no matter what. Take the good with the bad and leave the light on! ;D
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 04:38:39 PM
land payment, upkeep, water, wifi, not to mention either a manger or camp host. Camp hosts don't get paid but they are taking a spot that could bring in $27.00 (in the case of our CG) every night and that spot would bring in almost $10,000 a year. Generally we get
The camp host costing $10,000 a year I would question. First, is your campground full 7 days a week year round? Second, if you are full all the time aren't some of those sites paid at a lower weekly or monthly rate?
The Texas market is certainly different , but I know here in Minnesota the camping season is pretty short and campgrounds are only going to be fairly full during the week for maybe 6 to 10 weeks a year. The rest of the time they are busy only on the weekends especially when school is in session.
I don't envy you workng at a campground. Picking up after slobs sucks.
I boondock 100% of the time. Other than tire tracks and foot prints you'll never know we were there. We pick up everything.
One year our utility trailer looked like a Chinese junk as we had it heaped high with trash bags when we left. Luckily we found a dumpster we could use before we hit the highway. Last year we towed an enclosed trailer and every bit of empty space on the way out was packed with trash bags. We put the trash in a dumpster at a truck parking area along I80.
(The guys I travel with sure like to generate trash. I have never seen a group create so much trash in 4 days.)
Quote from: belfert on March 30, 2010, 05:24:55 PM
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 04:38:39 PM
land payment, upkeep, water, wifi, not to mention either a manger or camp host. Camp hosts don't get paid but they are taking a spot that could bring in $27.00 (in the case of our CG) every night and that spot would bring in almost $10,000 a year. Generally we get
The camp host costing $10,000 a year I would question. First, is your campground full 7 days a week year round? Second, if you are full all the time aren't some of those sites paid at a lower weekly or monthly rate?
I don't envy you workng at a campground. Picking up after slobs sucks.
If you figure $27.00 a night for a rental spot and it is occupied by a camp host so you can't rent it out it adds up to close to $10,000 a year. Yes we have monthly rates but I'm figuring the rental rate per night that is lost by not being able to rent it out every night. We are open 365 days a year here.
Last year summer came early here, it was on a tuesday. lol Our season pass has a day listed on it lol.
40% of the people don't give don't give you problems the other 60% are a PITA, back in the late 90's heading for retirement we had a nice KOA in Payson AZ with cabins and the whole shooting match.
I hope the word KOA doesn't upset you guys we had the campground for 3 years and never and I do mean never will I ever deal with the public at a campground the KOA is long gone and condos are in it's place now
good luck
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
If you figure $27.00 a night for a rental spot and it is occupied by a camp host so you can't rent it out it adds up to close to $10,000 a year. Yes we have monthly rates but I'm figuring the rental rate per night that is lost by not being able to rent it out every night. We are open 365 days a year here.
That's not how the math works for anything fungible, such as an individual site in a campground.
The "opportunity cost" of a camp site that is given to a host, or for that matter is unusable for any other reason, is the
average revenue for that site, minus any costs not underwritten.
So it would only be worth $10k per year if all your sites are always full all year long at the full, $27 rate.
If, on the other hand, you have, say, 100 sites, but on an annual basis you sell 10,000 "site nights" at $27 and 50 "site months" at $500, your overall average per-site revenue is ($270,000+$25,000)/100 annually, or just under $3,000. That's the number, by standard accounting rules, you get to state as lost opportunity cost for a site given to a camp host for a full year. I'm sure your actual numbers are somewhat different, but probably not that far off.
BTW, which way you figure the numbers for the W-2 is a topic of some contention. I would bet none of the hosts allow the management to get away with sending them a W-2 for $10,000 in income for the year. And, yes, IRS rules require the value of goods in barter to be taxed if there is a quid-pro-quo; IOTW, if there are duties that the camp host must handle for which an ordinary employee would be paid wages, and that host accepts instead a "free" camp site as payment, tax is due.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
First off, if they live east of Manitoba and west of New Brunswick then all bets are off and I won't be responsible for their behaviour.
I never did like slideouts so I can't help you there.
27 bux a night seems like a pretty fair price assuming BNSF's mainline doesn't run through the middle of the campground.
Now, as to the pullthrough thing, perhaps I can offer a suggestion which I encourage you to remember comes under the category of free advice and therefore possibly worth slightly less than you will pay for it, but I'll offer it anyway. Let the marketplace handle the problem. If your regular sites are $27 per night then post a higher price for the pull throughs. It doesn't really matter what that higher price is because most of the time you won't charge it anyway.
That way when Mr. Class B "I need a pull through" shows up you can say "no problem, that will be $47 (or $38 or whatever) please". And who knows, he might even think that was a good deal. For the rest of the world, when you see a nice guy with a towed behind his bus or some behemoth 5th wheel, you can say "well, we don't really need to charge you the extra for the pullthrough - just consider it Cat's special deal of the week". Everybody is happy.
Sean, you obviously didn't get the point of that. It was a comment just as an example of costs that go with running a campground. Too many people can afford a high price motor home but expect camping costs to be free or negligible. People will go out of their way to find a cheap campground and then complain about the amenities. I was trying to make a point here that campgrounds cost money to run but obviously it went over your head.
Bob, that would be great but I don't own the place or set the prices. ;D
Dallas, the way you do a pull thru is the way our friend at Williams AZ does all of his sites are 120 ft long with 2 complete hookups on each site if you want a pull thru you pay for 2 sites he cuts people a little slack but not much and he has been doing that for years
good luck
Dallas,
A couple of thoughts>
One, you need to come back to the Carolinas.
Two, Walmart has plenty of pull thurs
Third, Once upon time I had a single engine inboard boat and it would be an event to watch each time I backed into my slip. But I would rather back into a parking space than pull in.
And after I rant I usually feel better, do you?
Art
There has never been a time in history that serving the public has been easy.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has allowed time to scar over the wounds.
Try working in public transit or line run service where they'll assault the driver over a $3 fare...
The reward for public service is biblical in nature, there will be little thanks this side of the afterlife...
but it's a living!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Dealing with the public is and always will be a non stop problem from time to time. Basically on the forum we are dealing with different personalities and there are issues from time to time here also. We had problems at the KOA in Kissimmie Florida that never got fixed and the prices were $105 a night and we were there for 5 nights. A bad breaker that kept going off for no reason. It was obvious that the breaker was junk. I about went over to Walmart and got one and switched it myself. Shower doors that the locks didn't work. We never complained. We just made sure they knew of the problem. When we left they still hadn't been resolved. I had enough cord that I plugged into an unoccupied site finally. And we were staying in one of the top sites they advertised. For what it's worth where we generally camp during the summer (weekend and such) the sites are $18 for 50 amp and no sewer/water. Nice showers and shade. But you are secluded somewhat and it's actually camping. Campfires, grills and the whole shebang! If that was what fulltiming was I'd be all for it!
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 06:34:02 PM
Sean, you obviously didn't get the point of that. It was a comment just as an example of costs that go with running a campground. Too many people can afford a high price motor home but expect camping costs to be free or negligible. People will go out
But, you're also exaggerating the cost of what having a camp host costs. It is only costing the owner $10,000 a year if every day of the year you had to turn away one nightly customer because the campground was full.
Put it another way, would the owner pay the camp host $10,000 a year addiitional wages if that person lived elsewhere? Probably not as the camp site doesn't really cost the owner $10,000 a year.
A campground is way down on my list of businesses I would want to own. They are expensive to keep up and campers keep wanting more amenities like 50 amp service, wi-fi and sewer at every site. A properly done electrical service that delivers full voltage to every outlet in a full campground on the hottest day of the year is not cheap. I don't know how you could make money on a new campground. Every $10,000 spent to build a single site means that site has to be rented for a full year at $30 a night to pay back the up front cost.
I have never full-timed, but we do go to campgrounds in the bus. We do like to get a good rate and have experimented with some camping clubs. They can work out okay. It is normal for everyone to see things from the perspective of their own benefit. Some people buy an RV and think they will travel for nothing since they have invested heavily up front. The campground fees can get in the way of their delusion, so they complain. I know that I do not want to think that I am paying as much at a campground as I would at a motel.
A large percentage of drivers are really not that great at backing up whatever rig they have. Getting a pull through site solves that stress for them. It would be exceptional for those drivers to think that the pull through spot could be more essential for someone else. If it's available, they'll grab it using the first-come philosophy. Since it seems that those sites are premium, it is not unreasonable to charge extra for them. Those that do not need it, will opt to save the money. If the campground owner does not want to do that, there is no reason that you must try to ration the spots. First come, first serve and the rest is out of your control. The owner could post a policy that pull-throughs are only for certain setups, but again that is out of your control so don't worry about it.
People can be difficult. Some feel that if they are paying for something, you are their personal servant. Why should they walk the trash to the dumpster when they have a servant like you? Others will realize that they are paying for a campsite, and it is their responsibility to leave it a clean as when they arrived. One could hand out a rules sheet that informs them of that and any other rules. Anyway, that's the nature of being in a service industry. Please don't expect people to change. In all the time you have been managing this campground, I'm sure you know what the percentages are. They will continue to be the same. If you do not like the odds, the job is not for you. One thing you can be sure of, no matter how bad the worst camper you can remember was, there is someone worse heading your way right now.
It looks like you are missing the point also Bryan. I am talking about campground costs. As I said to Sean.....I was only trying to make a point that things cost money so people should not keep expecting to camp for nothing. Obviously neither of you get my point so I am going to stop wasting my time trying to get it across to you. Perhaps I should go back and delete that part of my post since it is over your heads.
Dallas and Bubbaqgal, which campground are you located if you don't mind me asking because wed are going through Texas soon and would love to stop by and see you both, we have read a lot of your post and you seem like super people. thankyou Richard
We are at RV Relay Station in Franklin. We are about 40 miles north of Bryan/College Station. We would love to have you stop by and visit. If you need more information about how to find us just email me at the addy in my profile.
It's a great place to hang your hat, sit and chat, cool your heals and get to know some great folk!
When we go to a campsite-I'm perfectly happy if I just have electricity (have big tanks). And with the sharp turning of the transit bus, can easily back into any space provided-which are more likely the scenic ones compared to the pull through. When we pull into a spot, it takes about two minutes to back in straight, another minute to hit the leveling valves, and another 6-7 minutes to hook up the electricity. In another words, we're into our space and done in about 10 minutes. We've seen some fivers take close to an hour to back in (with the wife madly screaming at the husband not to run over the power pole), hook up and get leveled. The grand scale of the competence in most of the RV'rs is down right scary at times. And yes, some of the full timers are your basic RV trash (most are not-but the bad ones really stick out). I always keep to the Boy Scout way of leaving the campsite cleaner then when you arrived. Good Luck, TomC
The wife and I have been in the koa system for 3 years now, both in the the workcamper role and management role from $30 a night to our current $70 a night in Nashville... We deal with the crazies that think dumping there tanks on the ground is ok or the ones that don't understand why we only have 100 channels of cable! The later is aggravating. Or those special people saying or utilities are messed up that are attempting the 50 amp connection with a cord made of ducktape and 2 orange Extension cords. The. You have the ones that say they paid for the best site in the campground when j. Reality the got the value water electric only next to the sewer lift station.... And then the ones driving the million dollar conversions that don't understand you do eventually have to mow the grass and can't keep putting it off because they are there !
Yes Dallas j feel your pain!
Quote from: bubbaqgal on March 30, 2010, 06:34:02 PM
Sean, you obviously didn't get the point of that. It was a comment just as an example of costs that go with running a campground. Too many people can afford a high price motor home but expect camping costs to be free or negligible. People will go out of their way to find a cheap campground and then complain about the amenities. I was trying to make a point here that campgrounds cost money to run but obviously it went over your head.
Whoa. No need to get testy or make a personal assault on my intelligence, Cat. Your point did not "go over my head" -- I understood it completely, and I said nothing whatever about whether or not I agreed with your underlying premise (I do).
However, someone questioned you on the $10,000 number, and you insisted it was correct -- it's not. I've run a lot of businesses and I know about opportunity costs. I know all about the costs of running a campground (and a hotel, restaurant, gas station, public utility, and about a dozen other businesses), and if you want to give examples of those costs, I am all for it, just be realistic about them. This "example" was anything but.
When your campground is running at anything less than full occupancy, giving a site away costs nothing other than utilities and maintenance. That's why it's done -- it's way cheaper than wages to get the equivalent work done. The only time a site occupied by a host (or out of service for any other reason) results in $27 (or whatever the full rate is) in lost revenue is when all other sites that could be sold are already full.
Since you seem to want to make me argue your other points as well, which was not my intent, I will:
What someone paid for their rig has no relationship whatsoever to what they can or can't afford for camping. There are people right here on this board with putatively expensive Prevosts who can't afford the fuel to take them out of the barn. Would you say to them "you have no business having a bus, since you can't afford to drive it right now?"
Some of us actually spent extra money on our rigs explicitly so they would be capable of avoiding expensive campgrounds. Possibly not a trade-off you would have made, but it is a personal choice -- our differences are what makes the world an interesting place. And, yes, actually, I am one of the people who "expects" camping to be free or negligible, because I've already paid for it many times over, and I researched it ahead of time. I would never have built the bus otherwise. What I do not expect is a full-service campground to be free, and when I need one, I expect to pay for it.
None of which excuses boorish behavior on the part of any customer. Presumably, people who stay at your campground do so because they need hookups, or WiFi, or a reliable address, or they just want the company of other RVers. Assuming they are treated fairly by the business, they should behave accordingly.
There are bad apples in any group. Without maligning anyone on this board, our experience has been that the RV community seems, at times, to have more than its fair share of them -- that's one of the reasons we stay out of RV parks. You have every right, from the other side of the counter, to be annoyed with them. But please, don't make sweeping generalizations about the rest of us. And don't insult my intelligence just because I took exception to one little part of your premise.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Regarding the problem of guests leaving their site in an untidy state - would it not be sensible to have a similar policy to that used by other holiday rental businesses (ie. car hire, holiday cottages, boats, RVs etc)? Specifically I mean either taking a cash deposit when the booking is made, or holding credit card details, which can be used to cover any damage or extra cleaning that might be required. I rent out a holiday cottage and the agent that handles the bookings doesn't return the deposit until a week after the guest has left, just in case some problem is discovered after the guest has gone home. I'm sure that the full deposit is returned in the vast majority of cases, but the fact that it may not be motivates the guest to behave properly.
Jeremy
PS. I really don't have much of an idea what it costs to stay in a campground in the UK so I can't compare the $27 figure - it occurs to me though that a full-timer living in a bus in a campground has probably got a more expensive lifestyle than living in a modest house. If it's not to save money, why on earth do people do it?
Quote from: Jeremy on March 31, 2010, 02:09:58 AM
I really don't have much of an idea what it costs to stay in a campground in the UK so I can't compare the $27 figure - it occurs to me though that a full-timer living in a bus in a campground has probably got a more expensive lifestyle than living in a modest house. If it's not to save money, why on earth do people do it?
Jeremy,
Most campgrounds over here give a reduced rate if you stay for 1 month. Some also have different rates for 1 week, 3 months, yearly, etc. Jack
I've only stayed in a handful of "RV camp grounds", the full hookup type. At two of them (both KOA for whatever reason) the drill was leave your trash in plastic bags at the pedestal or at the road side by your spot when you leave. I think because the overnight charge was not inconsiderable ($45) and because the trash bins were well hidden. So there is some precedent at least to the "leave your trash at the site" approach. Other places, and state parks, the drill was carry the trash to the bin on your way out, so that's what we do. We leave a site as nice and neat as it was when we got there.
I have a car on a dolly, I do ask for a pull through if I am just stopping for overnight, if I am stopping for more than a day I ask for a back-in, I usually get a little more privacy that way.
I am from Ontario, and I hate generalizations. I don't go around talking about what Texans do, or the odd things that people from the Carolina's do. I appreciate it when people don't denigrate me on the basis of where I am from.
What a lousy thread to read first thing in the morning. Way to set the tone for the day.
Brian
I like it when the area I am from is degenerated - it lowers the expectations of others to the point I have a chance to make a good impression. ::) ;D ;D
Campground etiquette is something many need to learn. lots of fodder to bitch & moan about.
like:
Your barking dogs may not bother you when the owners leave for the day, but they annoy the hell out of me when I have to hear them the whole time.
Loud stereos/ TVs - it's a campground, NOT a drive-in.
Sometimes hearing the rants of others helps us improve our actions - or see the benefit of the extra effort we put forth.
It has been said "the cheapest part of an Airstream is the owner". That can be said for many other groups too.
I don't know what it is, but some people think that if they had to pay to be there, they have a right to be waited on hand & foot. Regardless of how the cost relates to services.
Welcome to the "me first" generation . . . . :P
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I am very surprised that Ontario was included in your "nieghbours from the north" That is a first for me, and I hope not a trend. I'm from Ontario, and do our best to be "good campers"
Dallas, regarding the slide outs. When I get to Terlingua each year for my Vacation, I will work on two or three slide outs that week. Then Saturday night, Sunday departure day, three to four more to get retracted. I've seen enough on sticks and staples to not want one. Properly engineered, with heavy enough tracks and fasteners, they might work.
Big John
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Dallas.... Does the word French come to mind? ;) Actually some of my best friends are French and although their family has been here for generations they still remain true to the stereotype!!!! I smiled when I first read your post and saw the word Quebec! Oui, oui!!
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I'm a bit bored, sitting here "working", also know as waiting around a lot, so I looked up some demographic data on populations in Canada, vis-a-vis Dallas' complaint about people from Ontario and Quebec. I was actually surprised with what I found, although I probably shouldn't have been.
People from Ontario and Quebec at 21.3 million make up just under 2/3's of Canada's total population. So you are far more likely to meet someone from Ontario or Quebec than from any other province or territory.
The City of Toronto, in central Ontario, along with it's suburbs (Greater Toronto Area, or GTA) alone at 5.5 million souls is larger than the third largest province, which is British Columbia at 4.5 million.
My current home town, Hamilton, at around 690,000, is larger than two provinces and three territories. Heck, it's larger than the bottom province and the three territories combined...
so, yeah, I guess if you were going to meet people from Canada who can afford to come to Texas in an RV, odds are pretty great that they will be from Ontario or Quebec. On behalf of those of us that don't litter, I apologize for the messiness of those who graced your campground. Apologizing for our Province-mates is a very Canadian thing to do, we like to take responsibility for things totally beyond our control. Drives some people nuts... ;D
Brian