Post up fella bus people!! If you have pics or any alternative fuel information post away. Mods can we get a sticky here. There might be more and more interest here now that Dino diesel is reaching the $3.00 mark again. Tomorrow I will post pics of my bio diesel processor and the start of my two tank WVO for the bus.
Warning pic heavy
This is the saddle tank I am turning into a WVO tank. All I need to do is clean it up and weld the base to the bottom so it can be safely secured in the bay.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7783.jpg&hash=8d5f5ab97070dae1d317b105ed94eebcceb151f8)
This is my collection unit called a Super Sucker. Under the white bag on top is a vacuum pump. I draw a heavy vacuum on what used to be a propane tank. When I get to my restaurants I put the end off the hose, which has a pvc wand on the end, into the barrel and about 50 seconds later I am done. It works like a charm.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7785.jpg&hash=acd12c8c29519e87b595e2e14085896907188728)
These are some extra collection barrels and the big white cubies are for oil storage to be used int he process. The far left white cubie is my finished product which goes straight into the tank. The big stainless cubie is methanol which I buy in large quantities to get the price reduced. If you can see the barrel just inside the door that is the top of my oil dryer. I back my trailer up to it and throw the collection hose into it. I then use a compressor to air up the propane tank and it pushes the oil into the dryer. From there by valves I can run the oil to wherever I want, storage or processor.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7786.jpg&hash=9d705a3f88b4eed9560115244ca45af5c842570d)
Here is the first dryer, then processor then settle tank.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7787.jpg&hash=1e0f258293bcb1d5f68a89218dea1db2b694b127)
After the settle tank is the red oak chip barrel which is the start of filtering the settled bio D. I don't know what the red oak chips do but it cuts the water usage for washing the BioD by 75%. Beyiond the red oak barrel are two wash tanks. I can wash about 70 gallons of fuel super clean in about 3 hours. Then it is to the final dryer equipped with 10 micron sock filters and then on to the storage outside.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7789.jpg&hash=420ed91ee56433dea40680fe5f8bbccfaee9a4b1)
sure you're cooking bio-fuel... :P
looks like a serious operation though, this thread has potential.
MAn I just tytped up a long thread about why I make fuel and boom it is gone. I aint typing it again. CRUD!!! Bu to reply yes I am am serious about fuel making. I would probably make a lot more money if I were brewing whiskey.
.
Quote from: cody on March 17, 2010, 07:02:24 AM
I guess my question would be that while I think the idea is great can you pull up to a diesel pump and fill the bus with regular diesel fuel if your out on the road.
Yes I can. I don't want to and will avoid that. I intend on keeping the in place fuel tank full of regular diesel, 150 gallons. THe silver tank in the pic will be full of Waste Vegtable oil. A band heater will heat that tank and the tank will be completely insulated. Just prior to the filters I willl super heat the oil with a heat exchanger (20 feet coiled stainless steel tube in a 5 inch pipe, welded shut, 180 engine water pumped through the 5 inch pipe).
By way of 3 way electronic valves I can switch to burn WVO after the engine temp reaches 180 degrees. When I get about 5 miles from destination then I will switch back to regular diesel and purge the lines. So I can start up and get to temp on regular diesel.
I am sure you could start up on WVO in Texas. It is freakin hot down here you know. The problem is the oil not exploding into a vapor. With hot oil you lower the viscosity. When it hits a hot engine it vaporizes the fuel and sends it out the pipe. If it does not a
hey wal, what part of texas you live in? are you willing to give tours of the operation and answer questions? ;D
Just curious, how much do you have invested in that setup?
Also, if you are on the road and did not want to buy fuel, wouldn't your range be limited to your tank size?
I've seen a much smaller setup in the bed of a truck that was fully self contained and seemed to work.
Also, if you are useing your coolant to heat the fuel, cold starts with it would be impossible right?
If you had an electric fuel heater, would that make starting off WVO the same as regular? or would you also have to have a block heater?
Quote from: philiptompkjns on March 17, 2010, 10:37:19 AM
hey wal, what part of texas you live in? are you willing to give tours of the operation and answer questions? ;D
Just curious, how much do you have invested in that setup?
Also, if you are on the road and did not want to buy fuel, wouldn't your range be limited to your tank size?
I've seen a much smaller setup in the bed of a truck that was fully self contained and seemed to work.
Also, if you are useing your coolant to heat the fuel, cold starts with it would be impossible right?
If you had an electric fuel heater, would that make starting off WVO the same as regular? or would you also have to have a block heater?
I live in the sticks between 2 very small towns, Wallis and East Bernard. If you are interested in making your own fuel then yes I am willing to help, but I will ask you to do a couple of things before you get here. Research and know what you are coming to see. You can learn a lot from the internet, I learned it all from the internet. Once you get the knowledge and have a plan in mind then come to see me and we can fine tune that plan to fit your needs. An autonmted sytem is a must. I mean in can be manual valve this and manual operation that. But you never ever want to pick up a bucket and pour from here to there. You will work yourself right out of business. If you come here and have not done the research then your going to be lost when I try to explain it to you and we will be waisting our time.
I don't really know the exact cost because I am a junk yard picker if you ever met one. I will slam on the brakes for a good looking junk yard. If I had to guess it is in the neighborhood of $1300 to $1500. But i scrounged pumps and wheeled and dealed for a lot of stuff.
If I am on the road and have to purchase fuel then I will. I just don't want to. I figured I can load enough fuel to get from my house to Las Vegas and back without stopping for fuel. That will work.
So far as the heater. My point was the vehicle will start in Texas on WVO; However it is not good in the long run. The best way to explain this is this way, I got this from Greasecar.com I believe. Take a pan with a tablespoon of oil and put it on the stove. Turn the heat on and wait until it gets really really hot. The oil will turn to a black gel, smoke and stick. Now take that same pan with no oil and heat it up to the same temp. Now throw a tablespoon of oil into the pan after it is super hot. It won't stay in the pan. It will flash burn and disappear. Same concept as we are using for WVO. Cold oil into a cold engine is going to leave a sticky mess over time, it is not saying the engine won't start on cold oil.
An electric heater would be great. I don't want to pay $300 bones for one. Not when I can build a heat exchanger out of a 5 inch X 16 inch stainless pipe/ with 20 feet 3/8 ID stainless tubing coiled inside and water from the engine block circulating around the tubing on the inside of the pipe. I can do this for not a lot of money. It will feed 180 degree fuel to the motor.
Now I know why we wanted to come and visit! Amazing contraption you have, and you look serious. I hope this thread doesn't get lost, as I really think it should be a Sticky somewhere on this board. Contributions to this will make a good read and attract a lot of attention. This subject is fascinating.
As dino fuel gets more expensive, and it is, more and more will be wishing they had done what you have.
Paul
Yessir the higher the price of DINO the more calls I get. I wish I had cleaned up a bit. I went on a 400 gallon marothon the last time I amde fuel and had to walk away from it for a while because I was busy. I am gearing up and will probably be brewing this weekend since I am on call at work and can't go anywhere.
I wish this would get stickied.
.
Paul said:Now I know why we wanted to come and visit! Amazing contraption you have, and you look serious. I hope this thread doesn't get lost, as I really think it should be a Sticky somewhere on this board. Contributions to this will make a good read and attract a lot of attention. This subject is fascinating.
I said that. I said that before. I said that before Paul. Course I was probably after 40 other guys but I beat Paul. At least this time.....but I was first. Now make it a sticky or I'll keep talking. Comments, Zub?
Wal,
You confuse me....not that there is any challenge in that. You keep saying that you are burning WVO. WVO doesn't use methanol in any sort of process. WVO gets filtered and dewatered and then burned. Bio Diesel gets processed with methanol. WVO you can get on the road and filter it on the fly and burn it to fuel your trip. BioD isn't made on the road except by some clever and committed souls.
I am truly interested in your operation whatever fuel you are making. Wanting someone to self familiarize themselves with "the process" would seem to be overkill for WVO as it is a filter and evap process. Like I said....I'm confused. I really wish I could visit as I have 300 gallons of WVO that I can't process now and I would like to share it and possibly bank a portion.
PM me if you have a mind to.
John
No taxes on bio or wvo fuel in Texas. At least not yet anyway! ;D
http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_biodiesel-incentives.htm (http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_biodiesel-incentives.htm)
.
When they start taxing bio or wvo, it will be like moonshine. Lots of backyard stills and G men running around to catch the perps! ;D
.
There are several requests to sticky this thread for a while. The moderating team is discussing it. Critical to that decision is whether it can be discussed respectfully. Alternative fuels are almost a religion to some and discussions quickly become arguments that end up in insults to each other's intelligence. If we can avoid that, then I think a very good thread could emerge.
.
Removed
Put these topics on their own tab & let it be known that name calling will be edited out with any other postings that aren't in line with the discussion.
Dallas, very good idea!
Quote from: Now Just Dallas on March 18, 2010, 04:29:14 PM
My thought would be to put it in it's own board, just like Spare Tire, Off Topic, Final Arrival, etc.
Alternative fuels are important to all of us, more to some than others, but still important.
The one thing that has to go are the ego's.. they have no place in a serious discussion of any kind!
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on March 18, 2010, 04:17:16 PM
There are several requests to sticky this thread for a while. The moderating team is discussing it. Critical to that decision is whether it can be discussed respectfully. Alternative fuels are almost a religion to some and discussions quickly become arguments that end up in insults to each other's intelligence. If we can avoid that, then I think a very good thread could emerge.
I'll second the motion by Paul that we accept Dallas' idea.
When I first suggested this I intended that people that are active in this would contribute but I think, on reflection, that everyone will have a comment or anecdote....and they should.
John
Quote from: JohnEd on March 18, 2010, 07:59:10 PM
I'll second the motion by Paul that we accept Dallas' idea.
When I first suggested this I intended that people that are active in this would contribute but I think, on reflection, that everyone will have a comment or anecdote....and they should.
John
Well then lets have some contribution, I will start. Introducing the Wano Heat Exchanger. Total cost thus far is $14.00 and a 3x36 inch piece of square tubing. This is just the beginning but I will have it done before the weekend is out. I would have stayed in the barn but the dern skeeters are terrible already. These aint no regular mesquito either. These are them little bitty coastal ones that can get on you without you knowing and leave an itchin bump. The little beggers come out right at about dark.
Oh yeah!! Back to the Wano Heat Exchanger. I cut the square tube at 36 inches. I bought 1/2 black iron pipe and the elbows. Rather than waste money on close nipples I opted to weld the elbows together. Turns out it was the right choice becuase they barely fit being welded together. For the third return in the pipe I will have to cut the elbows threads off and then weld them together because they will not fit at the angle they will have to go in the tube. More photos will follow when I get it done.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7790.jpg&hash=8c12e1de59c04163e0b72e41d7ad1d33dae3b7ae)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi137.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq234%2Fwal1809%2FIMG_7791.jpg&hash=29dceb13814afb528aa8fce103e887f9ae952457)
Alright the square tube is a water jacket that will rob water from the engine. The tubing will have a water inlet and outlet. Bringing water in to one end and heating the 1/2 pipe inside and out the other to go back to the engine. Of course both ends of the square tube will have a welded in place plate. The black pipe will go through on plate and run the 36 inch length of the tube where it will then do a uturn and go back where it started, again another uturn. It will then run another 36 inches and exit through the plate welded on the other end. That is 36 total inches x 3 passes =108 inches of travel through 180 degree water.
I am not sure yet if this will achieve oil temps at 180 degrees or not. I do often times go hunting where it is cold. Some of you guys might laugh but 10 to 15 degrees is freakin cold for a south Texas boy. Last year it was 15 degrees in Ponca City OK. When I watered the dogs it took about 15 to 20 minutes to freeze their water bowls solid. So with these extreme cold conditions I will often times visit I intend to run the heated oil from the Wano Heat Exchanger up to a heated filter. Whether it be heated by water or electricity.
Divinerightstrip turned me onto a nice filter set up that runs off of 12V. It is $300 and some change with shipping added on. I am mostly not an off the shelf kind of guy. Guns yes I like off the shelf, anything else I like to make or recover from a junk yard. So with that being said does anyone have a water heated filter they want to sell or donate to the green cause. I call it the "Green Cause" = Cause I don't want to spend a lot of money ;D.
If you have questions then post away. It will all be clearer towards the end. The kewlest thing about engineering something like this is I am right no matter what happens. Heat exchangers are old hat I know. But if I like it and it does what I need it to do then I can do anything I want. That is the beauty with alternative fuels.
Oh and I really did not want to get into this because I am guilty. I started this thread with ALTERNATIVE FUELS. I call it that because not everyone understands my humor. From the pump diesel in my opinion is actually the alternative fuel here. We have just been programmed to think otherwise. When R. Diesel first made the diesel engine he put in gasoline. It damaged the engine, I think it actually blew up. He had to find something else and decided upon sunflower oil. It ran and ran good. So we are not really traveling into the future with what we now call alternative fuel, we are taking a history trtip and going back in time.
So now that I got that off my chest yall carry on and tease me about my alternative fuelstyle :o ;D
I would like to know what the properties of WVO are compared to diesel fuel like the flash point, BTU and weight some of this stuff has to be taken in consideration I would think.
DD has always had a strict requirement for fuels in the 2 strokes
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on March 19, 2010, 06:53:10 AM
I would like to know what the properties of WVO are compared to diesel fuel like the flash point, BTU and weight some of this stuff has to be taken in consideration I would think.
DD has always had a strict requirement for fuels in the 2 strokes
good luck
Good Morning Luvrbus, Specific gravity weight and viscosity is so close to the same there is essentially no difference, when converted to bioD or the WVO is heated to 180 degrees. I will get back to you on the flashpoint thing here ina minute, I got to go find it.
Biodiesel has better lubricating properties and much higher cetane ratings than today's lower sulfur diesel fuels. Biodiesel addition reduces fuel system wear,[26] and in low levels in high pressure systems increases the life of the fuel injection equipment that relies on the fuel for its lubrication. Depending on the engine, this might include high pressure injection pumps, pump injectors (also called unit injectors) and fuel injectors.
Older diesel Mercedes are popular for running on biodiesel.The calorific value of biodiesel is about 37.27 MJ/L.[27] This is 9% lower than regular Number 2 petrodiesel. Variations in biodiesel energy density is more dependent on the feedstock used than the production process. Still these variations are less than for petrodiesel.[28] It has been claimed biodiesel gives better lubricity and more complete combustion thus increasing the engine energy output and partially compensating for the higher energy density of petrodiesel.[29]
Biodiesel is a liquid which varies in color — between golden and dark brown — depending on the production feedstock. It is immiscible with water, has a high boiling point and low vapor pressure. *The flash point of biodiesel (>130 °C, >266 °F)[30] is significantly higher than that of petroleum diesel (64 °C, 147 °F) or gasoline (−45 °C, -52 °F). Biodiesel has a density of ~ 0.88 g/cm³, less than that of water.
Biodiesel has virtually no sulfur content, and it is often used as an additive to Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel.
This I got styraight from WIKIpedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel)
Bear with me here Wayne I am a little slow sometimes on these things but are we talking about WVO or Bio fuel I buy a little bio fuel in Texas from time to time
good luck
Not a problem Sir. I do know tihs. If yall have a dirty tank, lines or anything then just a run a tank of bioD in it. That dirt from 1975 will hit that filter like a duck to a bug. If you decide to do this I would get at least 2 filters on the bus for a "Just in case" moment. It is a solvent and it will eat the junk out of the tank. It will clean the injectors and lubricate everything very well.
I always add either sump oil, which has been run over a magnet and filtered, or some additive oil to the tank. It might not be doing anything extra I don't know. It does go to ease my mind that the IPs and internal parts are getting well lubricated from time to time.
"Specific gravity weight and viscosity is so close to the same there is essentially no difference, when converted to bioD or the WVO is heated to 180 degrees."
It is my understanding that WVO at 180 Deg. is still 6 times thicker than diesel.
I think I read that from a link on the Journey to Forever website.
I just returned home from a 5938 mile trip, I ran WVO for about 1500 of those miles.
This was about 1/4 of my fuel bill. Last year it was about 1/3.
It looks like next year I will have to run more oil because the price of fuel will be much higher.
I wish I could carry more oil with me but I weighed full when I left home and I was 27,150 lbs.
The gross weight of this bus 32,600.
1975 Crown two axel 6-71N
For many of us $4 a gallon diesel is not an option.
Jerry
Jerry,
You are one of my heroes. Walk'n the talk and breaking trail. At least in this circle.
How many miles are on the 671N? How many miles using WVO?
"Specific gravity weight and viscosity is so close to the same there is essentially no difference, when converted to bioD or the WVO is heated to 180 degrees."
That is only true if you qualify the statement. Bio has the same cloud point as the oil stock from which it was made. That translates to: If you are using Bio made from palm oil you will not be able to run the engine below 76 degrees(or so) unless you have heaters like WVO systems. I have read that B100 works anywhere in the summer but in the winter the ratio goes to 10% max without heated lines and tank. And that is because the bio will start to plug the filter. Rape seed oil...canola, is the stock used in Europe cause it clouds at a pretty low temp and at the 3% they are required to run it is OK in the winter with the winterized Dino. The best is PEANUT oil cause that stuff still pours below freezing.
Wal,
Do you do anything to lower the acidity of the sum oil you use?
Wayne,
what a great thread - I love your processor! I can see that you spent a bit of time constructing it. I wish I lived in a place where the temp allowed me to make and keep my fuel outside. I guess when Urge is running, I'll be able to, and i won't be a prisoner of New England any longer!!!
As far as having a sticky about it, I would love to see this, but I also am aware from my own experiences, that there is so much conflicting information out there.
So many people have their own way that they swear by, that other people find utterly horrendous. I could see how, even amongst friends, opinions could collide and cause some conflict and hurt feelings.
At this point, I have learned that my right way could easily be someone else's wrong way, and vice versa. I have even read (and own) so many books on the topic; these people claiming to be so-called "experts" and they too have conflicting information about what a person should do. *sigh* such is life, but it doesn't have to happen here. Perhaps if we were to start another space to talk about any sort of alternative fuel stuff, there should be some sort of separation between people sharing their own systems, and debating which systems are better than others.
In other words, it would be so wonderful if in a post like this, where Wayne is sharing with us his lovely contraption, the posts that follow would keep to the topic of asking questions about how he built it, or why he chose a certain type of tubing over another, etc. and not placing judgment. Other threads can discuss lubricity of fuel, viscosity of fuel, proper terminology, whether DDs can even handle alt fuels, etc, and go back and forth on a whole variety of things. (For example, I will keep my comments about peanut oil to another time and place ;) !!) I just worry that if we all start debating and getting too critical, then we will miss out on all of the wonderful work of people out there who don't feel like being criticized by us.
The goal is to get as much variety is possible in here so that we can all be exposed to a bunch of great information, then take what we've read and what we've learned, and make it our own.
I realize that this may be idealistic, but not unobtainable, if we all just keep these thoughts in our minds as we post. :)
DRT, thank you for the compliment on the processor. Your idea of thread is a good one. You seem wise way beyond your years. I do think we should police ourselves. This means if somebody is being a jackass then we should just leave the jackass alone and continue to speak of the topic on thread itself.
Sorry for those who read this prior to my editing. This I phone will fill in where I don't want it to fill in sometimes. When I read it later I think y'all probably think I spell like munky. ;D
Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 19, 2010, 01:04:31 PM
....As far as having a sticky about it, I would love to see this, but I also am aware from my own experiences, that there is so much conflicting information out there.
So many people have their own way that they swear by, that other people find utterly horrendous. I could see how, even amongst friends, opinions could collide and cause some conflict and hurt feelings.
I agree completely! I have little patience with those who get offended when someone does not agree with them.
Here is a guy who is doing it, not just talking about it. All the ones who say it can't be done just mean that they can't do it, but they can sure as hell talk about it. If they get upset, let them take their ball home, we can play by ourselves.
Hardly anyone agrees with me on anything but I am still playing.
My biggest concern is finding the oil. I no longer have the room to do anything with it, but when I did I asked around the local restaurants. All had contracts with grease haulers and most had locked tanks.
Len
Hello Len thank you for jumping in on the thread. Here is a tip for you. Get a collection container. Print you some cards that say lens,s grease service. Load up tha
e barrel in the truck and start soliciting busnisses. You will find one that is discrintled for what ever reason. You can dropthe barrel off right then and there. I devoted a day to this and had more spots than I needed. That was during the last oil crisis. Stay at it and you can find them. Test the oil too, you never know what the nasty looking oil will titrate at. So will surprise you. Another tip for biod'ers. Take the glycerin from a batch and use it in the new batch to catch water and lower the titration. I have done this with 20 titrate oil and got Befween 60 and 70 percent yield when I brewed.
I'll ask the question again and this time I have the answers, in regards to taxes, the federal government has levied taxes on homemade biofuel, both cellulose based and grease based, the tax code can be found in chapter 206 of the acts of 2008 and is relevent, also all production requires licensure and extensive documentation, of particular interest is the use of methanol, according to the ATF that would indicate refraction and is patently illegal under the homeland security act, due to the extreme explosion risk and the history of methanol being part of the process used in production of high nitrate explosives, it is punishable by prison. Apparently the only legal way to process the grease based fuel is by heating enough to filter and acquiring the appropriate licenses and then allowing onsite inspections thru not only the EPA but the ATF and where documentation can be checked against production records, this applies to amounts no greater than 2.5 gallons or equipment capable of producing up to 2.5 gallons, greater capability indicates the commercialization of the units. Sounds like it's easier to legally make moonshine.
Quote from: cody on March 19, 2010, 03:19:21 PM
I'll ask the question again and this time I have the answers, in regards to taxes, the federal government has levied taxes on homemade biofuel, both cellulose based and grease based, the tax code can be found in chapter 206 of the acts of 2008 and is relevent, also all production requires licensure and extensive documentation, of particular interest is the use of methanol, according to the ATF that would indicate refraction and is patently illegal under the homeland security act, due to the extreme explosion risk and the history of methanol being part of the process used in production of high nitrate explosives, it is punishable by prison. Apparently the only legal way to process the grease based fuel is by heating enough to filter and acquiring the appropriate licenses and then allowing onsite inspections thru not only the EPA but the ATF and where documentation can be checked against production records, this applies to amounts no greater than 2.5 gallons or equipment capable of producing up to 2.5 gallons, greater capability indicates the commercialization of the units. Sounds like it's easier to legally make moonshine.
*Fingers In Ears* LALALALALAALALALALALALALALALA
Well Cody I make both shine and bio diesel. When you come to visit we can sit down and drink some bio diesel while we Brew the next batch of shine. We can also pray to the baby Jesus that while we are drinking and brewing the Homeland Security boys don't bust in the barn door during a raid for the illegal amounts of methanol I have stored under the hay bails of marijuana.
Thats funny, might even be true, couldn't say lol. I found when I couldn't get accurate answers here, it was far easier to call the various regional offices and actually ask them, they were very informative. I do support the alternate fuel movement but it must be done safely and in compliance with the existing laws and regulations.
Alright alright!! I purchase methanol through my company and I pay taxes on the methanol. I do beleive if they were coming to get me they would have done it long ago. I can't see it as a very alarming thing when all the farmers within a 200 mile radius orders 1000 upon 1000s of gallons of liquid fertilizer. The security of those tanks would be a much greater concern. It is spring right now and there are 2000 gallon hdpe tanks in every dry field waiting to be spread with the seeders.
I don't want this to sound rude for I value your opinion. You gave your opinion and deserve an answer. The best way I can say it is I really don't give a rats behind if he government thinks I am a criminal. I know I am not and if they do arrest me then we will let the people hear what I have to say and they will decide my fate. If 12 people of these United States think I am a criminal for making fuel in the barn then I will accept what they do to me. Then and only then will I stop brewing the nector of the future. Peace out brother.
Quote from: Len Silva on March 19, 2010, 02:15:14 PM
My biggest concern is finding the oil. I no longer have the room to do anything with it, but when I did I asked around the local restaurants. All had contracts with grease haulers and most had locked tanks.
Len
Hi Len,
Here is how I went about it:
First of all, when I was running my rabbit on grease full-time, I was living in Portland, Oregon. It seems as though some parts of the country are more open to this sort of thing than others! Just have patience, because eventually you will find someone who will be willing to work with you.
First of all, find a few key places that you would even want to collect from. Great examples are Mexican food places, where they have a separate fryer for just tortilla chips. "Chipotle" is a great example. Once you find someone that you trust, ask to speak with the manager or owner and explain to them exactly what you plan on doing, but have a set plan. Figure out when their grease gets collected each week. Take it from there and plan to show up right in between pickups (ie if the grease is collected every other Monday, go on the off Monday) this way, you aren't getting the dregs, and you also aren't interfering with their normal schedule, or the schedule of the disposal service. If you are dealing with someone who locks up their grease, either the tank itself or also a gate that surrounds it, you will have to be very punctual so that you don't seem like you're wasting their time, or they are waiting around for you to retrieve a key.
Second, in terms of a plan, tell them how you plan to execute your collection: the equipment that you are using to collect, how much you are going to collect at one time, how you are going to transport it. You don't want to seem like a liability, so if you just go in there with no plan, then you might scare them away from you! For example, while in Portland, I collected from a BBQ restaurant on the first and third Wednesday of every month. I showed them my car, I showed them my collection equipment, my pump, my little 5-gallon cubies, and I even explained to them how I filtered it at home. They were so excited about me and my little rabbit, that eventually, I left my cubies there next to their grease tank, and they would fill them with the cleanest grease for me. :)
I ended up holding a bunch of alternative energy meetings at their place, and they used to give us fries for free and joke about us using them to fuel our bodies and our cars. It was very cute.
Other places don't like to publicize, but will work with you if you "behave" well, so to speak. If you show up exactly on time, don't make a mess, don't create a scene, and go on your way as if you have no affiliation with anyone; they just don't care and don't want to talk to you!
Either way, people are pretty nice, and like to help you out! Just be honest, be excited, and the enthusiasm is contagious!
When I joined the Biodiesel Co-op a year later, I was working with about 30 other people, and I was usually assigned to the task of finding new places and introducing ourselves (so, yeah... very rarely did I have a hand in
making the fuel, I just collected the grease, and explained our story! Though, on my own I have made quite a bit of "blender-bio" I call it, for experimentation, fun, class presentations - heh heh)
Good luck!
:)
Quote from: cody on March 19, 2010, 04:23:24 PM
Thats funny, might even be true, couldn't say lol. I found when I couldn't get accurate answers here, it was far easier to call the various regional offices and actually ask them, they were very informative. I do support the alternate fuel movement but it must be done safely and in compliance with the existing laws and regulations.
So far as safety I could agree with you more. Nothing bugs me more than to see the classic "Another fire/bio diesel" headline. That does not mean the 300 gallon tanks of methanol are anymore or less dangerous than the 300 gallon fuel tanks in every driveway around here. People have gasoline and fuel delivered because it is easier. These tanks are just as dangerous and need to be treated as such. So I firmly believe we need to keep it in perspective as much as we possibly can.
My point. If somebody comes to me and says "I want to make bio d" and they live in a city. I would tell them to do it in separate facility with fire prevention and fire fighting capabilities and I would recomend they not store 300 gallons at one time. I would also tell them to go to the fire department and inform them of the operation and what chemicals are on site.
In Texas we don't even need a plackard for less than 400 gallons while transporting the methanol.n that is why you will only see 3 55 gallon drums in transit or a cubie half full. I have it delivered so I don't have to Jack with it. The less work I do for a gallon of product the better. So instead of wasting fine and fuel I let them bring it to me.
I appreciate your response, nobody is accusing anyone of being a criminal, the only thing a person can do is to hope that the other person follows thru with the proper permits so it can be done safely and upfront, especially if a person is offering tutorials on it, that'll jump a person quickly on the radar screen. I could really care less what a person does but when they bring the board into the scope of possible investigation thats a lot to ask of a member. On Paltalk we went thru a criminal investigation due to a pot growing room that was operating under cover, we only had around 500,000 registered members back then in the 90's but it slipped past everyone, we paid fines of over 100K on that just for incidental involvement and since then I've been hyper sensitive. I've been involved in alternate fuels now since 1998 and have found it easier to not only get university involvement but funding by dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's so I know how passionate a person can get. And I hope your moon is better than some I've had and half as good as others.
Quote from: wal1809 on March 17, 2010, 06:16:08 AM
This is my collection unit called a Super Sucker.
Under the white bag on top is a vacuum pump. I draw a heavy vacuum on what used to be a propane tank. When I get to my restaurants I put the end off the hose, which has a pvc wand on the end, into the barrel and about 50 seconds later I am done. It works like a charm.
That's a brilliant idea for solving the collection pumping problem. How long do you have to run suction for, what's your GPM, how long does it hold vacuum, and how much can it pull in compared to the tank before it starts to appreciably slow down? I would imagine around 50% as an offhand guess.
Anyways, here's my info, as many of you have seen before.
I've converted my bus to run on straight WVO (no biodiesel needed) and I've run many thousands of miles on my system (though there are things I still plan on doing to improve it, and many things I would do differently).
http://bus.getdave.com/Infrastructure/Vegetable-Oil/
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbus.getdave.com%2FAlbum%2FVegetable-Oil-Conversion%2FDiagrams%2Ftn%2FDiagram.med.gif&hash=c642c4550407108ddda9715f3b2ad54d8e3f024f)
There's a full conversion album and diagrams and part listings for everything I did.
I wish I could take credit for the super sucker but I robbed the idea from others. I can pull a 29 Hg vacuum in about 15 minutes. I had a 12 volt Thompsons pump but it would not draw a heavy vacuum like the one I have on there now. It was pretty slick to plug it in on he trick and by the time I got to where I
was headed it was ready.
I think the tank I have now is 200 maybe 150 gallons. The first drum sucks up in about 50 seconds. The second barrel takes about 2 minutes maybe 2 1/2.
It will hold a vacuum for a long time. I installed a pump isolation valve so when I shut off the pump the vacuum does not hurt the pump or leak through the pump.
In other words, it would be so wonderful if in a post like this, where Wayne is sharing with us his lovely contraption, the posts that follow would keep to the topic of asking questions about how he built it, or why he chose a certain type of tubing over another, etc. and not placing judgment. Other threads can discuss lubricity of fuel, viscosity of fuel, proper terminology, whether DDs can even handle alt fuels, etc, and go back and forth on a whole variety of things. (For example, I will keep my comments about peanut oil to another time and place Wink !!)
Hmmmmm! Yeah, I hate it when people cross those lines of blurring the original subject. ??? ;)
placing judgment
I see this type of discourse as sharing info and debating relative merit. Sticking to the topic is another matter and the latitude afforded is a matter of opinion in itself. I have been here for many years and I don't feel I have accrued enough "credits" to dictate a whole lot to this crew about almost anything. Besides there are a lot of them that I am certain are smarter than I and I keep learning that there are a lot of sleepers, unassuming and inordinately qualified types without pretension, and the guys that get themselves squired by them look silly for awhile. And my 4 degrees, 140 IQ and 68 years, if anything, makes me more humble and appreciative of others. It is the quality of humility within me of which I am most proud. Is this called subject drift?
DRT,
I would like to see you start a thread about peanut oil. I don't think I know much about subject that but the history is interesting.
Thanks and really glad you are with us,
John
I wish I could write that well John. I did not do well in High School and I was in the police academy at 20. I took a few courses in college but not enough to write like you. When I see a well written piece I admire it.
I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject. Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil. Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel. A promotion that could lead this country out of the doomsday and into a bright future. None of us believe it is vegtable oil alone that will do it. We alternative fuelers do believe we have to start somewhere. It will and has led us to other options. I appreciate her for Being here and I appreciate her input.
I am one of those who worry about the future. It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it. It starts with us.
John, I agree that achedemic achievement is not the area that is going to dictate progress or failure, I have 3 degree's myself but mine were achieved out of boredom while working for the state, supervisors were given the option of advancing thu the educational system on the state ticket if it could be determined that the idea would benefit the job, many of the credits overlaped and made it easy for me, but back to the idea of the alternate fuel, my concern and I feel it's been address as fully as possible right now is fairly simple. We have many that show interest in the idea and a few that are actually doing it. For the few that are well versed in the process, it's incumbant upon them to not only address the physical properties of the process if they are willing but if they do so then the safety and legal steps should be also be addressed. That doesn't constitute drift but more like further explaination of the details, I would hate to see a person run afoul of the law in a zealous attempt to produce fuel utilizing components that are legal in one state but banned in another, or find that their particular area requires a permit or license of some sort, my area of finese as a supervisor in law enforcement was the legal end of the program so I've always looked at that as well as the other properties. In many states legal items that are common in many ways become illegal when found in close proximity to each other or one state may limit the quantity of an item while another may not care, for example it not only takes an act of God to buy methanol in michigan, you can't get it in usable quantites since the word meth became assosiated with crystal 'meth' labs, 'knee jerk' reactions of legislators don't require logic, only votes.
Cody that is a good contribution to the thread. I for one can't speak for other states. Texas is a little different than others apparently. Here you pretty much can go with a wide open throttle. I know some fellas are buying 10,000 at a time and having It delivered. From there they divide the cost and go there separate ways with there 300 gallons each. When you buy methanol in small quantities you pay out the nose. I was able to knock off $1.75 a gallon by buying 300 at a time. The only rules in place here are you have to plackard your load if over 400 gallons.
The other good thing about Texas, other than 4 major metroplexes it is mostly rural. I know where I live you won't see your neighbor unles you need him. I talked to the lady on the next property south of here. The last time I spoke with her was at the closing on my house, 7years ago. So having a fire will destroy everything in the barn but I don't have to worry about burning a whole neighborhood down. Oh and BTW I do have extinuishers and water hoses near the processor and far away from the processor. If I were to have a fire and it was near the methanol storage I would jut have to get away and let it go. The methanol is in a stainless 300 gallon cubie, grounded and outside away from any ignition source.
Ok guys back to program for the life of me I cannot find anywhere that says wvo falls under the 2 types fuel for Cat,Cummins or Detroit the 2 types of fuel being preferred (distillate) and permissible (soy or rapseed).
Cat and Cummins say no more than 5% bio fuel and Detroit is 20% and 0% for Detroit 2 strokes with emission control can you guys help me out here
good luck
Cody,
Thanks. I expected that you had advanced degrees as I knew of your career in law enforcement and a Master's is needed to progress. At least in Ca.it is. I went to University till I was 43 and I was paying a princely sum for those last many years out of pocket. I loved school and I did it as much as possible both with work associated education and the personal stuff. We share a lot.
We have many that show interest in the idea and a few that are actually doing it.
Mine is the counterpoint to your opinion, Cody. I find people involved in alt fuels are numerous and well dispursed. They are knowledgeable in their respective processes to the point of expertise and while most are not academically qualified there exists in their environment superbly qualified persons that focus and guide them. Like almost all trail blazers they are "rule averse" and "risk prone/tolerant". That would be your antithesis unless i miss my guess. Yet, you are the guy that they will go to when the enforcers bunched their skives and you charted the course to compliance with the min pain or the path to circumvent the rough spots. God knows your skills are needed and not everyone has you interest and talent. I am not making fuel but I am trying to and all I kneed is a new house with property in a town that has escaped the real estate down turn.
I bought 55 gallons of methanol at my local race track. The racers use it as "high octane" for their cars. To get a price they purchase in thousand gallon lots. Unlike Exxon, they pass the savings along to friends. It isn't rare or difficult to procure. As usual, only the honest folk are being inconvenienced by the regs. Drugs are common around here despite all that bearing down on "cringimals". The only thing holding me back is space and being able to keep the processor and stock far away from anything else I value.
That doesn't constitute drift but more like further explanation of the details,
No argument from me. Obviously!
the word meth became associated with crystal 'meth' labs,
Alt fuel types warn everybody that will listen that you MUST avoid that word and only use the word "methanol" or "methyl alcohol". Data mining on the internet by the NSA is done on behalf of the DEA and the DEA often gets bored and we cannot count on them to collectively take a class.
'knee jerk' reactions of legislators
You get what you pay for. The same guys that sold us on the extravagant pay and bonuses for corp execs are selling us on the validity of "improving the system" by cutting the pay of pols. Dr.s , insurance co.s and oil outfits do not subscribe to the "tighten your belt" theory either. y theory is that we need to pay Senators a couple million a year with added perks and Congressmen a million and cops a coupe hundred thousand (or more) and demand that much value from each. I'll bet my MBA that would work. Imagine the applicants you would have to screen. I think alt fuel problems would be resolved in a New York Minute if their Jobs depended on it and they couldn't rely on Exxon to fund their campaigns. Fuel and bus related.
WAL,
If you think I have any mastery of out native tongue then, you Sir, are easily impressed. I missed the boat on spelling as well. You learn to spell around the 4Th grade and grammar happens a little later. I was a D to F student till the 9Th grade when I became a A- kinda guy thru 11Th and then back to D- and drop for the last year. Severe child abuse/neglect are the experts explanation. They fired a teacher and the principal in one case and forceably retired another and those were only the ones that got a richly deserved dose. We gotta cut the fat out of that education system, right? Wrong! We gotta double the budgets almost everywhere in our own interest for survival. " you think education is expensive...try STUPID for awhile".
I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject. Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil. Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel.
I guess I missed most of that. What confuses me is why she wouldn't offer these clarifications on her own behalf. She is anything BUT lacking in com skills. She seems to have a pretty good grip on a whole host of other subjects as well and given her age that is even more impressive. Maybe she likes it but I am not fond of people explaining what I really meant. Sure do value the spirit of support though.
that could lead this country out of the doomsday
I think I read where the total production of VO, were it applied to the Dino appetite of our nation, would only satisfy 11 or 13% of the requirements and that only if we gave up baking and other frivolous applications.. I think the principle of every little bit helps is more appropriate. That and the activity should be encouraged and rewarded. I have read that we could only realistically apply 5 or 6% but even that would amt to billions. Europe, with it's 3% requirement does well with their balance of payments to the Sheiks and other despots. Surely your enthusiasm is well directed, though.
I am one of those who worry about the future. It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it.
This will send you to nirvana and really get your pumper toasty. Go to YAHOO GROUPS and search for "BioD" and WVO and WMO and Alt Fuels and Diesel and Energy, just for a start. You will find a lot of DRT types in that mix that are teenagers and worthy of respect let alone adults...at least by the likes of me. After investigating them try the same thing on Google.
I am one of those who worry about the future
For most people the act of worrying imparts an unpleasant feeling. Again, most, find this feeling localize to the abdomen. So, in effect, when you tell someone that you worry about them your communication is that their actions or simply being is making you sick to your stomach. I come from a long line of worriers and I hope that you restrict that action to only the "future".
Gee! This developed a life of its own for me. Terrible to have all those buttons.
Me
Hello Johned. Because I don't write as well as some of you who hold several degrees I find myself having explain my previous posts. When speaking of alternate fuels leading us out of doomsday nightmares I didn't mean it would be wvo that would do it all. More in a sense it will come from the people. Who knows what could happen or who knows what scientic breakthrough is just around the corner.
I commend DRT because she is of the generation behind mine. The next to take the gauntlet and run with it excitedly. I know of only a very small percentage in that he group that has taken on the challenge. Sure we can find it out there on google. I am sure if I googles long enough o could find a bilingual elephant that retrieves ducks. So to me DRT is kewl.
Now back to biod. John you can make bio d in a 5 gallon bucket. What you waiting on. Oh and if your buying methanol from the track you might be taking a hit. If I buy at the track it is $5.00 a gallon. In bulk I get it for less than $2.00 per gallon.
I want to also recap what I mentioned earlier. Keep your glycerin for a rainy day. When you hey oil that titrates really high just pour in 8 gallons of the glycrin into 40 gallons of high titrate oil. Turn on your processor at temp leave it circulate for an hour. Let it sit for about 8 hours and drain the glycerin off. Re-titrate the oil and see what it is then. You will get a nice surprise. It will also take any hidden water out as well. This way you use cruddy oil and reclaim your methanol. No need to build a separate still to reclaim the methanol.
Quote from: luvrbus on March 20, 2010, 11:01:57 AM
Ok guys back to program for the life of me I cannot find anywhere that says wvo falls under the 2 types fuel for Cat,Cummins or Detroit the 2 types of fuel being preferred (distillate) and permissible (soy or rapseed).
Cat and Cummins say no more than 5% bio fuel and Detroit is 20% and 0% for Detroit 2 strokes with emission control can you guys help me out here
good luck
Hello Luvrbus. I think it would be easier to find a chicken's tooth than it woul be to find where a manufacturer recommended any higher blends than what you have found. Mainly because there are a lot o people out there making fuel that is sub standard.
The real truth is we all run a risk with running bio d or wvo. To me it is worth it. The risks are biod ways rubber. I have been working on my tractor today (I will leave the adjectives to your imagination). I found the return fuel line is no longer ther. It was made of rubber and is gone. It is an easy fix so I will keep rockin on with it.
The other problem is diluted motor oil. I choose to change my own at home and I change it more frequently than the manufacturer recommends. If you don't change the oil then you could be in for a real beating in the long run. For my VW Jettas the oil change is 10000. I do a filter change every 10000 buy an oil change at 5000. In my Excursion I change every3000 instead of the 5000.
So farad where to find the type 2 fuel rating I will have to help you find it Monday. I am not sure where to look and need a bigger keyboard than a iPhone has to offer.
This has been one of the most usefull discussions I have read on this subject. Usually, there are lots of the 'dirty little details' left out or glossed over. But, in this discussion, they are being addressed in a mature & practical 'matter of fact' manner.
Nice to see the details being discussed instead of being trampled on, especially the base stock collection procedures.
I wish you continued success with your endeavor.
Quote from: wal1809 on March 20, 2010, 06:04:49 AM
I wish I could write that well John. I did not do well in High School and I was in the police academy at 20. I took a few courses in college but not enough to write like you. When I see a well written piece I admire it.
I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject. Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil. Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel. A promotion that could lead this country out of the doomsday and into a bright future. None of us believe it is vegtable oil alone that will do it. We alternative fuelers do believe we have to start somewhere. It will and has led us to other options. I appreciate her for Being here and I appreciate her input.
I am one of those who worry about the future. It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it. It starts with us.
Haha, it kind of warmed my heart to see another 23 year old on this board period. I don't have anything against wiser people, I just thought thought I was the youngest here.
WAL,
I want to also recap what I mentioned earlier. Keep your glycerin for a rainy day. When you hey oil that titrates really high just pour in 8 gallons of the glycerin into 40 gallons of high titrate oil. Turn on your processor at temp leave it circulate for an hour. Let it sit for about 8 hours and drain the glycerin off. Re-titrate the oil and see what it is then. You will get a nice surprise. It will also take any hidden water out as well. This way you use cruddy oil and reclaim your methanol. No need to build a separate still to reclaim the methanol.
That is a recent development/process in BioD making. A year ago I built a "plumber's delight" still to recover the methanol. The copper was not all that cheap and there was some labor involved. Using the Gly to dry the stock and lower its acidity is just plain nifty. No matter what it titrates at, use that methanol laden glys to your good advantage. I can't imagine doing it any other way. Ans after you use the gly to treat your WVO stock keep the gly around for a while. b BioD in small quantities floats to the top for skimming.
I commend DRT because she is of the generation behind mine.
Lots of people are confused about the span of years in a generation. It varies a little but it is commonly identified as 14 years. I doubt you are 37-38. Are you? I suspect there are more than a few generations between you. That would further make your case, I'm sure.
some of you who hold several degrees
You can search till your hearts content but you won't find a university teaching basic writing skills, grammar or spelling. All that is supposed to have happened prior to HS. With precious few exceptions all of my professors had education at the college level as the objective. Few held out any hope for those many of us that hadn't managed to claim those skills for our own EVER developing them. If you could pull an A in your engineering courses they didn't care if you could spell it. Mine didn't, anyway, thank God. Old saying that adds perspective: Quote :4 years ago I couldn't even spell engineer and now I are one". Sadly close to reality.
I have no D vehicle. I have friends with them and I will have one. While I want to process this oil to salvage it I want to do it in a processor. I would be doing 5 gallon batches if I could use it. The friend that was in this with me has flaked.
I paid $2.15/gallon for my methanol a couple years ago. The boys at the track do me right and they really like the idea that i am doing something for the environment. Curious posture for that group, eh wha?
Other than real bus stuff I would prefer to do on PM or email or phone. All are listed. You could get all the heat you need out of a oil fired boiler. House and shop and processor. What are you paying for electricity out there.
Well Sir I am 42. So not too far off. I thought about the vacuum venturi and even started the project about 2 years ago. Then I got turned onto using the old glycerin as a prep. You can actually take really bad oil down to such a low titrate number, you can hit it with a base and your done.
My wife and I also made a batch of soap with the glycerin. The bar soap is amazing. It will get you sqeaky clean. When my clothes get stains, even ink stained I cut up a piece of he bar soap and soak it into the stain. Works wonders.
Johned I thought this whole time you had a bus. You Will be a long time between rides
making 5 gallons of bio d at a time. That is a good price for methanol. I have seen some if these at the track for $7.00
I use electricity in the process for heat. I heat to 110 circulate and spray to dry the oil. From the it goes into the mixing chamber. If you will notice the temp critical barrels in the pic of my processor, they are shot with foam insulation and paint over that.
Once it gts bit I use very little electricity after that. Theixer was insulated too good at first. I had to remove the insulation from the pipes and the top. The chemical reaction from the methanol would raise the temp from 110 f to 150 f . I had to remove some insulation.
We had a front come in yesterday. Pretty cold for this time of year here. I hated some oil up in the mixer yesterday afternoon and this morning I noticed it has only lost 20 degrees over night. I think our electricity bill never went over $200 in the summer last year.
i speel gud.
Quote from: cody on March 21, 2010, 06:02:20 AM
i speel gud.
I have to say your right. I could not sleep last night so I went out to the barn for a while. I wrote that around 4:30am or so. I read it again just a minute ago. I have got to get my PC hooked up and running again.
I worked on my (insert as many dirty adjectives as you think I might have blurted out here) tractor until 10:30 pm last night. I found the return fuel lines were melted. They looked like the plastic worms you fish with. Bio d destroyed them. That was an easy fix. It makes me wonder though when I will have to take the injector pump to be rebuilt with Viton rubber seals.
What I went to fix was originally the ingnition switch. It had been in yard near the barn. The ignition switch just fell apart. $130.00 for a new one shipped here. It is of course diesel so finding a generic brand was impossible. You turn the key backwards for the glow plugs then in the opposite direction for start.
For $15.00 total I bought a generic switch,a big washer and a 30 amp starter button. I wired the glow plugs through the starter button and then had to figure out what wire went where. Well in figuring what wire went where is when th adjectives started rolling. Somewhere out there is a Phillips head screwdriver that reached the speed of light going across the yard.
Come to find out the (adjectives) battery was dead as a nail. It gave a 12 volt reading but could handle no load, not even click the starter. Another trip to town,pad all the dogs and here we go. 3 trips to town, a few of these &$@"/ and $15.00 plus a new battery we are off to the races.
Oh I forgot to tell y'all why it was that difficult. All the wiring was done with just enough wire to get from one component to the next. I had a choice od pulling the steering wheel and the fuel tank to gain access. My other choice was to loosen the dash and have enough room to get my fingers behind and undo all the electric components and drop them now the dash.
Other than whining I really had a point to all this. The point is to check your fuel lines if using older vehicles. The bio d destroyed mine and allowed the return ports to spit bio d all over the motor. It ate the paint off the motor as well. Bio d is some bad juju for some items. This is why filters get clogged when people first start using bio d. It will take everything out of the tank and lines and send it to the filter.
Wal,
You didn't say anything about all the COPPER LINES that you replaced because Bio eats copper and the stuff that remains causes the bio to mutate into something bad. It also has a bad relationship with galvanized. You can go cheap with galvanized instead of black iron if you simply rinse off the galvanize coating with Ospho. When you screw those pipes together you also must us the pipe dope that is rated for "fuel". It stands up to Bio but the regular dope FAILS after a time.
Sorry if you knew all this.
You are correct, I had you pegged as being much older and experienced. There is roughly a generation between the two of you.
John
This reminds me of a story told about the three mouseketeers, Henry Ford, Harvey Firestone, and Thomas Edison, they were all battleing personal demons and met at a restaraurt that happened to have a reporter for the detroit free press sitting at the next table, thomas edison, of course related his version of how he now had thousands of ways to not make a light bulb work well safely tucked into his dismal swamp and firestone was still battling with rubber and the possible improvements of it that were still critical to figure out when henry ford commented that confusion seemed to be his only ally to fall back on but it seemed that he was loosing his ability to bring up the necessary and needed amounts of dementia when he wanted it for clear thinking lol. My great uncle was that reporter and he swears by the story, it seems that if even great thinkers like that were sometimes stuck deep in a boondoggle or quagmire of mental disorganization how can the rest of us think we can easily run thru the problems that we encounter, that's what makes it fun I guess. I often think of how the three contributors made it possible for the many inventions and improvements that they brought about, how if one of them had failed it would have made the road so much harder for the others. we're all dependant on each of us contributing one small piece to the puzzle, nobody has the whole picture but with each small piece added it begins to make sence.
Nice work!!
im running WVO in all my vehicles and Generators for almost 10 years now.
went trough the normal up and downs,but never any engine problems!
im still having trouble to post pics,to show my setup.
im using poly tanks as storage tanks on my bus.i heat only a 17 gallon aluminum surge tank via hot fox and 30 plate exchanger.i found that heating and cooling large amounts of wvo leads to a lot off condensation and sludge!
the surge tank has level sensors to automatic refill from the main tanks.i also can override the system and
mix diesel into the tank,so i have a lower ratio on start up.
in germany we used single tank systems,but we also had svo clean from the pump.
here i run all on two tanks!
i carry 250 gallons wvo in the bus and up to 500 in my trailer,depending on the trip im doing!!
i have an extral clean diesel small tank for the espars and the webasto furnace!
where in tx are you located???
im coming to austin and fort worth in the next weeks ,so maybe we can exchange ideas!!
Quote from: cody on March 22, 2010, 02:23:34 AM
This reminds me of a story told about the three mouseketeers, Henry Ford, Harvey Firestone, and Thomas Edison, they were all battleing personal demons and met at a restaraurt that happened to have a reporter for the detroit free press sitting at the next table, thomas edison, of course related his version of how he now had thousands of ways to not make a light bulb work well safely tucked into his dismal swamp and firestone was still battling with rubber and the possible improvements of it that were still critical to figure out when henry ford commented that confusion seemed to be his only ally to fall back on but it seemed that he was loosing his ability to bring up the necessary and needed amounts of dementia when he wanted it for clear thinking lol. My great uncle was that reporter and he swears by the story, it seems that if even great thinkers like that were sometimes stuck deep in a boondoggle or quagmire of mental disorganization how can the rest of us think we can easily run thru the problems that we encounter, that's what makes it fun I guess. I often think of how the three contributors made it possible for the many inventions and improvements that they brought about, how if one of them had failed it would have made the road so much harder for the others. we're all dependant on each of us contributing one small piece to the puzzle, nobody has the whole picture but with each small piece added it begins to make sence.
And..... never underestimate the contributions of those who don't know. I will never forget the humbling experience when three of us "Supertechs" struggled for what seemed like days, miles of schematics spread all over the place, mountains of test equipment, jumpers and cords all over the place, when the new kid walks in. "Did you check the fuse?" "Well, of course we checked the fuse, do you think we are all stupid?"........
Quote from: JohnEd on March 21, 2010, 11:01:16 PM
Wal,
You didn't say anything about all the COPPER LINES that you replaced because Bio eats copper and the stuff that remains causes the bio to mutate into something bad. It also has a bad relationship with galvanized. You can go cheap with galvanized instead of black iron if you simply rinse off the galvanize coating with Ospho. When you screw those pipes together you also must us the pipe dope that is rated for "fuel". It stands up to Bio but the regular dope FAILS after a time.
Sorry if you knew all this.
You are correct, I had you pegged as being much older and experienced. There is roughly a generation between the two of you.
John
In my processor I used black iron. Some parts were galvenized due to time costraints and lack of selection. I do live in the sticks you know. The only copper I use is on the methoxide injection from the methoxide mixer to the processor.
So far as the heat exchanger it got scrapped. I got a call from Charlie Davidson who has a stainless one for sale at a good price. So I redirected my work attentions to some more needy projectsm, like the $%^ #$%^ tractor.
So far as pipe dope I used white tape in the beginning. I heard of some leak stories and when I broke the system down the second and third time I went back with yellow tape. I have had no problems to date with yellow tape.
Quote from: NeoplanAN440 on March 22, 2010, 11:25:37 AM
Nice work!!
im running WVO in all my vehicles and Generators for almost 10 years now.
went trough the normal up and downs,but never any engine problems!
im still having trouble to post pics,to show my setup.
im using poly tanks as storage tanks on my bus.i heat only a 17 gallon aluminum surge tank via hot fox and 30 plate exchanger.i found that heating and cooling large amounts of wvo leads to a lot off condensation and sludge!
the surge tank has level sensors to automatic refill from the main tanks.i also can override the system and
mix diesel into the tank,so i have a lower ratio on start up.
I am 2 hours east of Austin. I got to run to a call but PM me when you know your going to be here.
in germany we used single tank systems,but we also had svo clean from the pump.
here i run all on two tanks!
i carry 250 gallons wvo in the bus and up to 500 in my trailer,depending on the trip im doing!!
i have an extral clean diesel small tank for the espars and the webasto furnace!
where in tx are you located???
im coming to austin and fort worth in the next weeks ,so maybe we can exchange ideas!!
Quote from: JohnEd on March 20, 2010, 12:47:41 PM
I guess I missed most of that. What confuses me is why she wouldn't offer these clarifications on her own behalf. She is anything BUT lacking in com skills. She seems to have a pretty good grip on a whole host of other subjects as well and given her age that is even more impressive. Maybe she likes it but I am not fond of people explaining what I really meant. Sure do value the spirit of support though.
John,
Sorry to not have seen this sooner! If I didn't limit my internet time, I'd never get my school work or my real work done! I wasn't ignoring or avoiding the question, I just only get on this forum briefly every now and then. :)
To fully answer your question, peanut oil is not a great oil for either WVO or biodiesel use. This is because, at least for me living in New England, the gelling temp of peanut oil is rather high compared to other oils, so it really only makes a decent summer fuel. Also, the acidity of the peanut oil interferes with the neutralization reaction of the biodiesel process. Especially if you are new to making fuel, it can really mess you up. It's funny, if you google "peanut oil" and look for alternative fuel stuff, you'll find all sorts of information about how Rudolf Diesel ran his first ever diesel engine off of peanut oil... does anyone believe this?
Not sure I do. :P
Quote from: wal1809 on March 20, 2010, 01:44:23 PM
I commend DRT because she is of the generation behind mine. The next to take the gauntlet and run with it excitedly. I know of only a very small percentage in that he group that has taken on the challenge. Sure we can find it out there on google. I am sure if I googles long enough o could find a bilingual elephant that retrieves ducks. So to me DRT is kewl.
well thank you. :) *beams*
Quote from: wal1809 on March 21, 2010, 03:25:33 AM
My wife and I also made a batch of soap with the glycerin. The bar soap is amazing. It will get you sqeaky clean. When my clothes get stains, even ink stained I cut up a piece of he bar soap and soak it into the stain. Works wonders.
I can't believe you actually make soap with your leftovers! AWESOME!
Making the soap was really easy. I was going to build a heAted tank so I could drive off the left over methanol and pour into wooden flats from there. With 4x8 sheets of plywood with a lip around the edge I could easily make 1000 bars in one day. Sell them for a dollar a bar and make my methanol money back. It is great soap too.
Sooner or later the government will find a way to put road tax on our french fries because of you wvo users!! ;D
Rudolf Diesel ran his first ever diesel engine off of peanut oil... does anyone believe this?
Not sure I do. Tongue
Yes, I d...or did. I have read about the "first ever D running on P nut oil many times thru the years. I thought it was true. I figured he must have had a good reason cause there aren't all that many P nut farms in Germany if you check their snack foods and candy. Sunflower was the ticket. P nut is a great skillet oil cause it doesn't scorch at such a low temp. I figured it was some sort of super oil if it went high and low...no double ?? The spotty info I have is that it pours down to the 30's.
I'll ask around,
John
I have read both but I believe it was sunflowerer oil that he used to run the first one with success.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/cummins090-1.jpg?t=1269389197 (http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/cummins090-1.jpg?t=1269389197)
Quote from: NeoplanAN440 on March 23, 2010, 05:12:02 PM
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/cummins090-1.jpg?t=1269389197 (http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/cummins090-1.jpg?t=1269389197)
Are you bringing your bus to Austin? PM me when you get there I would like to arrange a meet. I can bring our bus as well and maybe you can lend a pointer to a WVO newbie. I am tying to get this thing up and going before April 16. I am headed to Odessa, Texas to take my wife to a baby shower. It would be nice to do it for the cost of a filter instead of the $430 in Dino diesel I figured on the calculator.
I cleaned out the 100 gallon tank today. Whew it was nasty. The Dino had turned to varnish. It took a couple if hours but I got it it super clean today. The mounting base will
be completed by Friday. He heat exchanger is on the way. Fuel lines valves and switches and a heated filter is all I lack to be free of fuel pump tirrany.
As soon as I get the rest of the work on my tractor completed I can go pick up the 500 gallon propane tank. I will turn it up on end and have a drain valve out the conical bottom. A foot above that will be a decantur valve to gravity feed the bus through a 5 micron filter.
Of course the oil will have been filtered and dried before going to settle. The tank will be painted black and should easily reach internal temps at around 140 degrees during the summer. Lord knows that is the only good hing about Texas heat. I ain't ready for it that is for sure.
OOppps
i think i copied the wrong link!!
i try it again with some pics of the main conversion parts!!!
still working on it how to get the pics full size into the post??
if you have more questions,no problem!!
as for valves (hydraforce hydraulic solenoid valves)
heat exchanger 30 flat plate stainless,they are sold for wood stoves and hydronic heating systems.
also the transmission cooler on the cummins 6bt makes a perfect heat exchanger for wvo!!
just some ideas
http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/ (http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae161/NeoplanAN440/Neoplan/)
Maybe i can use this post also to ask again!!
is anybody running a cummins engine ,(lets say a 350 big cam or early l10) with the PT fuel system,on WVO??
I would like to hear about problems or results!!!
just wondering how the system can handle it,as im planning a big cam or l10 swap in the future!!!
Also i get a lot of emails and comments,that i would risk my engine or damage it!!!
i do this now for a long time and have taken lots off my engines apart,after running on wvo for a long time,but have never seen any damage that results from the use of it!
i run Mercedes (yes they will run on everything,he gets even UCO and atf) vw engines as generators,gm 6.2 and 6.5,cummins 6bt (450k miles total and still counting),isuzu gens,kubota,lister,witte.......
im running the 6v92 on it with no problems as of now (knock on wood)
the fuel savings have paid to be ready for an engine swap to a ntc or l10 in less then 6 month.
but still my engine is strong,no smoke,and uses less then a quart on 1k.
i do more oil changes than most as a precaution,but all samples come back ok.
when doing the rack and valves,all looks good,no sludge around the injectors.
i check the air box and pistons from time to time,and looks clean to me.
i never had the heads off at this point!!!!
so if anybody has a failed engine due to wvo or has opened a detroit because of problems with wvo,i would like to hear from it or learn what went wrong!!!!!
yes i had enough problems,mainly because i was trying to cut corners on the conversion.
not enough heat,wrong filters (flow rate) or just skipping a few days while cleaning and dewatering
wvo can get you in serious trouble!!!
everybody can run a mercedes or p pump engine on all kinds of oil.my first gm 6.2 showed me what it means to have good and clean wvo and the right system.the standyne pump of these will teach you a lot of lessons and hours on the side of the road switching pumps.
i think the last pump i changed on I8 in az in the middle of nowhere some years ago,finally gave me the kick to work on my system and resolve the problems.sometimes it takes a while till you move on.
Wal,
If you paint the BIG tank BLACK you will never get oil that has settled out the water and particulate. One side of the tank getting heated will set up convection currents within the tank and keep everything nicely mixed for4 you. Warm ol does stttle far better and quicker than cool/cold but the heat must be uniform. Put you tank in the shade or build an enclosure for it....tin...wood...brick...adobe??????
Didn't want to see you shoot yourself in the foot, Sport.
John
I never thought about convection currents. I can see that now because it gets really hot here and I can see that tank getting 140 degrees or more. I got another idea then. I can set up a couple of 300 gallon totes in the new barn.
I'm not sure which one you wanted to post, just hover your mouse over the picture, copy the IMG code and past it anywhere in the post you want the picture to appear.
Like this.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae161%2FNeoplanAN440%2FNeoplan%2Fcummins101.jpg&hash=0a01a4da482020cd14c46e6423708f2e25e43a27)
Thanks for the Help!
Learning everyday another step!
I guess if i spent as much time on my computer,as i do in my Garage,maybe
i will understand it sometime!!!or maybe NOT!!
Wal
Did you know that glys can be spread on your dirt road as a dust suppressant? Alcohol free, now!!!
Is anyone considering WVO for home heating? I don't have the issue in Florida but I would bet that a lot of you in the frozen north use a lot more fuel in your furnace than in your bus.
Yes i do!!
I run a Listeroid 6/1 on Wvo as my generator to charge my batteries.
the cooling system is connected to my house water heater and the hydronic loop!
i added a heat exchanger in the exhaust to recover all heat losses.
in the summer i have my outdoor jacuzzi (also tied into the system) running as a radiator.
just for fun!!!
for the next season im working on converting a beckett burner to waste oi,and run an outdoor oil boiler with it!!
i guess living off grid,made me go crazy!!!
Quote from: Len Silva on March 26, 2010, 08:43:04 AM
Is anyone considering WVO for home heating? I don't have the issue in Florida but I would bet that a lot of you in the frozen north use a lot more fuel in your furnace than in your bus.
How about both?
I was considering a diesel heater in my bus so that I could also run that off of WVO :)
Most diesel heaters would plug up with veggie oil. not practical. I have diesel heaters in my bus and work great but noisy outside. Jerry