BCM Community

For sale....
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FUrge%2FDSCN0882.jpg&hash=ad014ae8231938be65cea06c368cdc943a7145c6)

SOLD!!!!!

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Uh oh, now I've really done it!

I bought "Urge" and had him towed home on April 1st, 2009. That should have been indication #1 that things were going to get crazier, and that I would be laughing at myself and my insanity at least daily from that moment on...

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Anyhow, step #1 was to get rid of all of these seats. Between work, school, general day to day craziness and accumulating all of the appropriate tools, I managed to pull most of the seats out with the help of some friends.

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Then I had to figure out what on earth to do with all of these seats. I didn't have a dumpster, or a trash can large enough to toss them into, so I figured, "what the heck!" I'll try to sell the darn things. Turns out, there's quite a market for bus seats. I posted them up on Craig's List and within a few days and a few phone calls, I had a couple eager buyers show up and pay me to get rid of my seats. Excellent.
I ended up making back all of the money that I spent on towing the bus.

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One guy drove up all the way from New York city, loaded a bunch of the seats into his sketchy, windowless van, handed me a wad of rolled up dirty bills, and then hopped back into the van and drove off, back down to the city in time for his 3rd shift job? I counted the bills for a second time after he took off... yep he ended up overpaying me... hmm. I hope he doesn't ever come back to reclaim that 20 bucks.

The second guy (above pic) had just bought his gasser Ford bus van, and was completely envious of my "Urge". "I wish I could afford a bus like yours" he told me over and over, "but this one was a real bargain, this one was a reeeeeeal bargain!"
"Oh yeah?" I asked, "Where'd ya find it?"
"It used to be a party bus." he told me, "the stripper pole is still in it." he was very excited to show me. I gingerly peered inside, making sure not to touch anything. "Fifteen hundred bucks!" he said.
"Not bad!" I told him, "and mine doesn't run yet, so I'm sure you wouldn't want it."
"Not for the money I'm sure you paid for it!" he said, and took off. It took all of my willpower to keep my mouth shut. I didn't want to sound like a jerk. :)


After all of the seats were out of the bus (and out of my life!!), I noticed that the floor in the rear of the bus had a slight sponginess to it.
"What's going on here?"
So I decided to rip up the floor.

Prevost owners: tell me if you've also experienced this!
What had happened was, there were two thin sheets of stainless steel over both wheel wells. After thousand and thousands and thousands of miles of rocks from the road being shot up and hitting against the thin metal, enough small holes had punctured through, that water started collecting and rotting through the wood and the glue. The result was some really lovely white substance oozing between the pieces of flooring.

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Mmmmm.... yummy. Makes you want to lick it.

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So, eventually we got all of the lovely rotting wood and steel up and out of the bus.

Pretty neat: I got a good look at the frame. There's not much to the bus!
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(whoa air bag is larger than my head!)

SO.
Where am I going with all of this.

I was trying to figure out what to put down as the new floor in the bus. I decided that I didn't want the stainless there anymore, because then the same thing would just happen again. And sure it was fun, but I don't want to mess around with rotting wood anymore. Once was enough. So, I got some 3/4" Marine ply, and painted it, and fastened it down.
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Alright, now what?
Now it's in my bus. I am thinking though, that I am going to take it up again and seal it with some type of undercoating like Rhino liner or truck bed liner of some sort.
Does anyone have some good suggestions or info for me?
As far as the interior goes, what should I put down for insulation? Then what on top of that?

In some parts of the bus, I'd like to put down some carpet. In other parts of the bus (kitchen and bathroom) I'd like to do some tiling.
Has anyone had any experience with flexible grout? (http://starquartz.com/grout.html (http://starquartz.com/grout.html))

Thanks in advance for any feedback!
-Anja

I used two part epoxy paint to paint the bottom of my plywood when I replaced the floor.  I am lucky enough to live near a place that only sells/installs epoxy paint.  They had various half used cans they gave me a deal on.  The stuff doesn't go bad as it is two parts.  It seals like you wouldn't believe.

I don't know why you don't install some metal over the wheel wells.  It is unlikely you would ever drive it enough to wear through the metal again.  You could use a little better grade of stainless and/or use stainless that is thicker.  The whole point of the metal is so the plywood isn't exposed to water.  As it is now the plywood will be exposed to water any time it rains on the road.

Metal was also used to help stop tire or brake fire before it gets in to coach...I know it works the xl I just bought would have been a pile of melted metal without it...

I would put some kind of metal back in over the wheels!!!!!!! The wear / corrosion that you speak of will sand the plywood down faster than the metal.

Good luck John

Good start you have there.
Why not put some steel back? If you go with a little thicker metal, you'd have no worries.  ;D
If you rhino line the tire side, you'd be able to reapply it as needed.

the floor problem is not unusual...I mentioned before about the fire problem in this area above tires please take this to heart as it is the biggest problem for a bus disaster...Foam insulation is best if you use board type instead of spray on seal joints with foam in can...I have done one like yours (89 prevost Xl) with two slides..Any thing I can help with please ask...Bob

Anja,

OK, forget the technical advice. I want to know who the cutie is behind the steering wheel in the first picture. Surely you did ot think you could simply slip that pretty lady past this crowd with someone raising a question. I just surprise dit took so long.

OK, put the metal (heavier gauge) back over the drive and tags. I'd check on the other side and give it the same treatment. After all, you don't want to set up conditions that might just make an ash of yourself!

I would guess that that's Anja herself in the driver's seat.

Bob

I am with everyone else on this so far as replacing steel over the wheels.  I doubt your going to have to replace it again any time in the near future.  From what I have been told by the old heads is once a fire starts get out fast and don't go back unless your family is in there.  A fire could easily be started from the wheel area.  It is easy to see, slow the fire down as much as possible.  Plywood aint the way to do that.

The second part.  If you coat the plywood with a paint, rhino liner ect. it will not last.  MOre stuff than you think gets thrown up from the tires.  It will wear on the wood beginning immediately.  Even Rhino can hold up long.  Once there is a crack int he applied liner and water gets in, the liner will release and chip off.  I got experience in this area.

We were having bad problems with our boat trailers and gravel roads.  We could not keep from sand and gravel blasting the inside of the fender, which quickly affected the outside.  We used Rhino under there and it still could not hold up to the beating we put it through.

Everyone has made the points pretty well about going back with metal on the wheel wells.  I will just echo the fire safety aspect of it.

But one thing I haven't seen mentioned that I would do while you have the floor up is wire brush the rust as much as you can and use a rust neutralizing primer on the metal, topped by a good quality paint.  Best to put an end to the rust while it is relatively easy.

There are a couple places I see where the rust has eaten through a few places on the steel framing.  I would definitely think now is the time to repair those.  It will never ever be easier to do than it is right now with the floor up and wheel wells stripped.

POR 15 is about the best for stopping (neutralizing) rust. I used it on old cars and it seals great.

Bryan

I was laying on the couch with my Iphone...........reading this thread......when I saw the floor in your bus I believe PTSD set in.........I've been there done this......OMG....I can even smell it!   I came upstairs to my computer to write this...!   My recommendation is to clean up as much as you can from the engine compartment to the fuel tank compartment front wall!  This is all covered by that thin stainless sheet!  What I did was replace this stainless with a thicker sheet of stainless!  Without the Stainless that floor wouldn't last 3 years with just plywood!  

I don't know what your level of experience is, or how much you know about welding but again this is just me........and its your bus........anyplace there is a hole rusted throught I'd cut the entire piece out and go back with new metal!   Once I had the metal clean I'd use Rustbullet to paint the steel before covering anything,  I'd paint everything I could get to on the chassis, Rustbullet is a great rust inhibitor!  Wear throw away coveralls and gloves and find a nice mask also!

I have a site at the bottom.....there are many pictures start back at the earliest archives, when I first started working on my Prevost and just look at as much as you can.........LOL......good luck.........If I can answer any questions.......don't hesitate!

Thank you all for your suggestions and helpful feedback!!

Yes, I was definitely not planning on just keeping the plywood there, I realize it is less durable than even the thin stainless regardless of how well I seal it.

Now, why it didn't occur to me to just do a thicker gauge of steel? Ingenious.

Quote from: belfert on March 01, 2010, 04:07:06 PM
I used two part epoxy paint to paint the bottom of my plywood when I replaced the floor.  I am lucky enough to live near a place that only sells/installs epoxy paint.  They had various half used cans they gave me a deal on.  The stuff doesn't go bad as it is two parts.  It seals like you wouldn't believe.

Belfert: is there a specific brand of two part epoxy that you have had good luck with? would two part epoxy paint be similarly effective?

Quote from: robertglines1 on March 01, 2010, 04:34:10 PM
the floor problem is not unusual...I mentioned before about the fire problem in this area above tires please take this to heart as it is the biggest problem for a bus disaster...Foam insulation is best if you use board type instead of spray on seal joints with foam in can...I have done one like yours (89 prevost Xl) with two slides..Any thing I can help with please ask...Bob

Thanks, Bob. Be watching your inbox! ;)

Quote from: expressbus on March 01, 2010, 04:45:45 PM
Anja,

OK, forget the technical advice. I want to know who the cutie is behind the steering wheel in the first picture. Surely you did ot think you could simply slip that pretty lady past this crowd with someone raising a question. I just surprise dit took so long.

OK, put the metal (heavier gauge) back over the drive and tags. I'd check on the other side and give it the same treatment. After all, you don't want to set up conditions that might just make an ash of yourself!

How can you even see me in that picture? LMAO.
Check the other side? Are you referring to the front of the bus? Is there the same metal over both wheel wells?

To be honest, at this point I am thinking of stripping the entire floor out, starting from scratch, and doing as muddog16 had suggested (an idea that I have been tossing around in my head) and start from the true bottom up.

Quote from: muddog16 on March 01, 2010, 07:21:53 PM
I was laying on the couch with my Iphone...........reading this thread......when I saw the floor in your bus I believe PTSD set in.........I've been there done this......OMG....I can even smell it!   I came upstairs to my computer to write this...!   My recommendation is to clean up as much as you can from the engine compartment to the fuel tank compartment front wall!  This is all covered by that thin stainless sheet!  What I did was replace this stainless with a thicker sheet of stainless!  Without the Stainless that floor wouldn't last 3 years with just plywood! 

I don't know what your level of experience is, or how much you know about welding but again this is just me........and its your bus........anyplace there is a hole rusted throught I'd cut the entire piece out and go back with new metal!   Once I had the metal clean I'd use Rustbullet to paint the steel before covering anything,  I'd paint everything I could get to on the chassis, Rustbullet is a great rust inhibitor!  Wear throw away coveralls and gloves and find a nice mask also!

I have a site at the bottom.....there are many pictures start back at the earliest archives, when I first started working on my Prevost and just look at as much as you can.........LOL......good luck.........If I can answer any questions.......don't hesitate!

Haha thank you. :) I'll definitely check out your blog. Picture tutorials would be most helpful.

My level of experience is minimal, but I'm not afraid of anything! I am a lousy welder (in the aesthetic sense; my welding looks like mini replicas of the Appalachian mountain range) but I enjoy it, and so far my welds have withstood the test of time.
You are right, there are definitely a few pieces of the frame that have been rusted through. Cutting them out and replacing them is a great idea.
I plan on keeping this bus for quite a while, so I might as well do it once, and do it right!
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Thanks, all.
I'll continue to post updates on here as I move forward with the project!

Look for a welding class at the local technical college. In addition to getting some tips on technique, you'd get access to some nice machines to use without the expense of buying or renting them.  ;D
Not to mention free help from the instructors on what ever project you can bring in.

Might take a cabinetry or plumbing class when the time comes. . .

Sounds like you're going to have a blast!

A friend joined a wood worker's guild to have access to their shop tools. He learned how to use all the tools by helping with some other projects, then when it came time to build his house cabinets, he had plenty of help.

I used two part epoxy paint from a company called Durall, but I don't think they distribute outside of the Minneapolis area really.  Any good two part epoxy paint should be fine like whatever they sell at Home Depot, Lowes, or your favorite paint place.  Be warned it is not cheap and it doesn't go real far on plywood, but worth the investment to avoid a rotting floor and major repairs down the road.

Even with epoxy coating you're still going to want to replace that metal over the wheel wells.

Are you sure this isn't an Eagle in Cognito wishing it were a Prevost??  Sights like this sure look familar!  I was under the impression that Prevost did not have these issues, or so I have been told.
Gary

I put the stainless steel back but I put it on the bottom of the frame tubing so I have a 1 1/2" void between the stainless and the plywood flooring.  I then installed 1 1/2" polystyrene in the void (before the flooring) and sealed around the edge with expanding foam.

Anja,

Welcome aboard. Looks like you have yourself a project. As long as you keep at it, and don't get burned out, I think you will enjoy it. It is great that you don't mind learning. I like that kind of spunk.

God bless,

John

If its any encouragement the bus you have is one of the easiest to convert...Prevost support is great...just have your serial number when you log on to prevost car  web site and you can get wireing and air for your particular coach..I just paid 179 dollars for windshields delivered to house:just a example,were there in two days...shop for parts but will find that prevo is competive and delivered to your home...just ask ????? there is no stupid Question but the one not ask....

Quote from: John316 on March 02, 2010, 11:54:50 AM
Anja,

Welcome aboard. Looks like you have yourself a project. As long as you keep at it, and don't get burned out, I think you will enjoy it. It is great that you don't mind learning. I like that kind of spunk.

God bless,

John

Thanks, John. Thankfully, the spunk is an inherent part of my nature - it couldn't leave me if it tried! I just do my best to channel it in the right direction. Whether or not a bus project is the right direction is open to debate... again, to the outsider, I seem crazy!


I have to thank you all immensely for the words of encouragement.
I remember my thought when I had first bought my bus: that if I waited around for the "perfect" bus, or the "perfect" time to buy a bus... well, then I might as well kiss my dream goodbye, because there is no such thing. So, when the bus came to me, I jumped right in.

For some reason, the hustle and bustle of life, deadlines, clients, and projects has been clouding my view of reality, leading me to forget my "no time like the present" mantra!
Thanks to an encouraging email from a forum friend, I decided to ditch my "to-do" list, and I headed down to visit my bus.

I started late, and I finished up even later, but I managed to pull up my carpeting and wooden panels and start doing some work to the frame.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FUrge%2FDSCN4570.jpg&hash=9d517621420259af7c64ee0ef59ad1655e058297)
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Here are some nasty before pictures for your enjoyment.

I tagged the beams that had been thoroughly rusted through for removal, and went at the other rust spots with a wire brush.
Now, as for cleaning up that thick layer of grunge that is covering everything under the floor, pressure washer and some "purple power" ??

I figure, now is also a good time to find that air leak, so I'll air it up next time I'm down there, (tonight!) and also cut out those rusty beams.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FUrge%2FDSCN4574.jpg&hash=14203bfd431621a8908814e21bcc31a1d4fa1773)
Alright, I'll post some "after" pictures once I finish cleaning up this rust, weld in some new beams, and apply some nice rust-inhibiting paint. Then you all can make fun of my welding! ;)

That's all for now, folks! :)
-A

That is going to be a sweet ride right there.  It was funny to see the dark picture with the light on inside.  It reminds me of some other projects I have done.

BTW, folks. Her posting name is, "Divine Right's Trip." Run a wiki on it, if you wander what that is all about....

God bless,

John

What welding rig are you using?  Are you TIG ing the welds?  I had an old guy teach me how to weld after years of mud daubering.  He told me I was not looking at the pool (Molton metal).  He told me to pay attention to the pool and slowly push that pool where you want it to go.  If the pool is rising then you not hot enough or going too fast.  If it is caving in then your burning too hot or too slow.  His other best advice was to grind the area prior to a weld.  That is huge in terms of making a good weld.

If I may be so bold and go out on a limb here to speak freely. I would learn how to make a good weld or get somebody to teach you or do it for you.  Why cut out metal and replace it with a poor weld.  A weld that looks bad is bad and has no structural signifigance.  You got one shot at fixing it correctly right now.  You do not want to have to go back later and tear out what you got to go back later.

Quote from: wal1809 on March 03, 2010, 12:36:41 PM
What welding rig are you using?  Are you TIG ing the welds?  I had an old guy teach me how to weld after years of mud daubering.  He told me I was not looking at the pool (Molton metal).  He told me to pay attention to the pool and slowly push that pool where you want it to go.  If the pool is rising then you not hot enough or going too fast.  If it is caving in then your burning too hot or too slow.  His other best advice was to grind the area prior to a weld.  That is huge in terms of making a good weld.

If I may be so bold and go out on a limb here to speak freely. I would learn how to make a good weld or get somebody to teach you or do it for you.  Why cut out metal and replace it with a poor weld.  A weld that looks bad is bad and has no structural signifigance.  You got one shot at fixing it correctly right now.  You do not want to have to go back later and tear out what you got to go back later.

I currently use a MIG welder. Though, I can use both.

Please, always be so bold. :) !!!
I actually am not as terrible as I am pretending to be, I am just giving myself a hard time. I took a class and learned how to weld in High School, and also have a great crew of friends to support me. !!
True, if I am going to do it, I'll do it once, and do it right, though I will do it myself. I'm not too proud to ask for a hand, though if need be!

And yes, my user name is referring to a favorite book of mine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Right%27s_Trip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Right%27s_Trip)
Thanks John !

Quote from: expressbus on March 01, 2010, 04:45:45 PM
Anja,

OK, forget the technical advice. I want to know who the cutie is behind the steering wheel in the first picture. Surely you did ot think you could simply slip that pretty lady past this crowd with someone raising a question. I just surprise dit took so long.

Quote from: divinerightstrip
How can you even see me in that picture? LMAO.

Trust me it ain't easy! ;D I hadn't even noticed until Will pointed it out! ;) LOL!

Quote from: divinerightstrip
Check the other side? Are you referring to the front of the bus? Is there the same metal over both wheel wells?

I think he means right and left sides. And probably yes over all wheel wells!

Quote from: divinerightstrip
To be honest, at this point I am thinking of stripping the entire floor out, starting from scratch, and doing as muddog16 had suggested (an idea that I have been tossing around in my head) and start from the true bottom up.

That would be my suggestion!

Quote from: divinerightstrip
I'll continue to post updates on here as I move forward with the project!

Yes Please DO! We love BUS PORN! (bus pics of any kind! ;))
And yes you will get expert advice from some of these guys! (Bob, Pat, Rob, and several others have Prevo's, and Pat, Gary, Steve and several others have done some extensive metal replacement projects!
And some of us other clowns (me, Kyle, Cody, etc ;)) will just babble as we see fit! ;D

Yer off to a great start and be sure to ASK, we will answer!
;D  BK  ;D

Just a little heads up from somewhere who has been there.....as the weather warms up and if it gets a little wet that big old bus looks like it is going sink into the ground.  It is pretty hard to get a bus out of wheel  wallows, especially when pointing up hill.  If you are going to be working on it for awhile consider getting enough wood blocking to stop it from sinking in and also to have it high enough up so that you can safely crawl under there and do brake maintenance etc.... A final point would be try have the bus as un "racked" as possible while doing any welding flooring etc....don't want to build in "rack"  could make for some obnoxious squeaks/handling in your future.

You see I am confused.  I thought the OP was a dude and that was his girlfriend or daughter int he front seat.  I just figured that out and yes you are a cutie.  You don't see many 23  year old cute girls owning, rebuilding and driving a bus.  That is pretty kewl.

Oh I forgot to ask.  I read you had it towed home.  What is wrong with motor/transmission?

Quote from: wal1809 on March 04, 2010, 09:20:52 AM
You see I am confused.  I thought the OP was a dude and that was his girlfriend or daughter int he front seat.  I just figured that out and yes you are a cutie.  You don't see many 23  year old cute girls owning, rebuilding and driving a bus.  That is pretty kewl.

Haha thanks. :)

Quote from: wal1809 on March 04, 2010, 01:12:18 PM
Oh I forgot to ask.  I read you had it towed home.  What is wrong with motor/transmission?

So glad that you asked.
Let's play a game, shall we?

Tell me what this is!
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FUrge%2FDSCN0999.jpg&hash=78dc2cd940ee33516168a04c7347f44957e6ac91)

Anja,

I'll take a shot at it:

Looks like a connecting rod with a spun bearing

Bob

I am on my I phone so I can't see the pic that well. It it looks like the rod is completely busted.  How Many miles does the motor have on it.

Oooh! Oooh! I know the answer!

It's a cracked crankshaft!  Look hard, the conrod end is intact, but crank journal has a half inch crack in it.

Hmmm....  so you need a running 8V92.  Or a crankshaft, some conrods, pistons and liners.  Or maybe a running, smoking, leaking core 8V92 that you can pull the crank out of, have the crank machined .010 under, and install in your engine with new .01 over bearings.  Someone out there must have a nearly dead 8v92 you can trade a couple cases of beer for!

I have a running, smoking, leaking 8V71 I'd let go for 6 cases of beer.  Too bad it's the wrong engine!

What year is your prevost? is that a 6v92;just noticed rod #5 stamped on end cap? my computer won't bring up a clear enough picture to say it is toast but don"t look good..:repair or used engine is a decision you have to make...good used engine is generally less dollars than rebuild,lot less..There are busnuts in area that can help you Nick Badame in NJ and many more.. There should be a date stamped on bearings (if detroit)that should give you some idea when it was installed.part of part number...Just suggest you start new topic on engine problems...just a bump in the road plenty of work to do before you need a motor..There is a letter before the last 5 or 6 numbers of your serial number...what is it ??

Allrighty then.  I got to the office and sved the phototo photoshop CS3.  It looks to me the first response was correct.  Spun a bearing.  I do see some spots but cant tell what they are so I marked them with the red arrows.  I can't tell if they are cracks or what.  Either way that crank is coming out of there before your beuty gets to rolling under its own power.  Have faith it will come one day.
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BTW how did you get that pic.  Was the pan off when you picked it up or did you take it off looking for a problem?  Some bus nuts on here will be able to tell you if an inframe rebuild will work or not.  To me finding out the miles on the bus would be my decision.  If your on the verge of a total miles to be achieved on the motor then I would vote pull the whole hting and do a complete rebuild.  I would hate to do the lower end, only to have the rest of it cave in on you soon after.  You got some guts to take on a project like this. I commend your efforts.  Once it is done and your rolling down the highway with a destination unknown, it will be a grweat feeling.

My experience with a long project. When growing up I had a hand in my family's side business of buying super duper old trash houses and fixing them up.  One was a house just off of hwy 71 about 4 miles south of Columbus.  My mother told me she found a jewel of a house and wanted me to aid in its repair.  I asked where and she told me.  My reply is there is no house there.  She replied with it is covered in vines trees and bushes.  It was 30 yards off the road and could not be seen.

My belief was she lost her brain somewhere between the house and Columbus.  To save a long story she bought it for the cost of the property and started a bridal shop in the house.  It turned out to be a jewel.  1.5 years to rebuild the house but it was well over 100 years old with Wood trim 4 feet up the walls and transom windows over each door in the house.  It was sold for around $200,000.  I had a hand in several of these rebuilds.

So 4 years ago my wife and I found one.  They were asking $40,000 and we offered $20,000.  They took the offer.  Now I was alone on this project. I did not know where to begin other than remove the trash in the house and one nail at a time after that.  I reworked the electrical, installed central air and heat, plumbing, refinished the wood floors, insultated the walls attick and underneath ect.

I know it is a long story but it will fit your bill in a second.  About half way through I was at quit thirty.  I was working night shift as a street cop and 2 extra jobs a week.  I also had other duties to attempt to keep up with.  To say the least I was tired, beat up and felt alone and could not see the end.  I had to literally tell myself one more nail, one more nail.  I mean that, at times I said it out loud.

To make it worse my mother in law wanted to rent the house upon completion.  She gave up her lease at her current location in Odessa.  I did not reach the deadline and she had no place to go so she moved into my house until the repairs were completed on her house.  You talk about serious motivation to finish a project.

Well it was done 2 months after Mo in law moved in.  It is a neat little house on a half acre 1 mile from our house.  When I was done I looked back and was absolutely thrilled I did not quit it.  Besides the money value of the house now, it was a personal achievement.  I don't have quit in my toolbox and didn't want to start at this stage of my game in life.  So when you get down and you will somewhere between now and finished you just remember, one more nail.

Yup, methinks it is the crankshaft, and that looks like an 8V92 to me ;). Am I at all close? Looks to me like she pulled the oil pan to get a good look at it.

But...what do I know ::).

God bless,

John

wal1809, you're so close!  Just above your far right arrow is the crack in the crankshaft!

I think I see what your looking at.  It looked like a shadow to me.  Either way it is coming out of there before she is rolling again. DRT how many miles is on the motor?  Is it in fact an8V?  Have you located a a new crank yet?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Hello all,
Sorry I've been away from the forum for a few days. I am still in school and midterms are upon me. Study first, play later! :)

So, OneLapper guessed right ;)
It's a broken crankshaft in my 8V92. I took the picture from below the bus with the oil pan removed.

This weekend was actually great weather for bus play, so I put my obligations aside, and a very dear bus friend came by to lend a hand and see where I was at with my project.
We had some lofty goals, but ended up spending most of our time trying to charge my lousy batteries and hook things up appropriately. Turns out, my batteries really are complete CRAP! Any advice on where to source some good bus batteries for cheap?? Heh yeah, right, I know...

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(note: the PD4106 is going to the airlines, "Urge" says "Have a Nice Day" !!) :)

We ended up just hanging out, eating pizza, drinking beverages, and playing in the yard and around the buses. Good, lazy Sunday! Later on in the evening, when I was alone once more, just me and my bus, I ended up taking the other half of the flooring up and doing some more sanding and prep for the rust-inhibiting paint. I ended up cutting out a few bad beams. I still have a couple more to remove, and using a wire brush to remove all of the rust. I still have a little more to do, but it looks great!

Oh, and another good thing: I found the air leak in my bus! It is coming from this little box:
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What is this?
Some sort of regulator, I am guessing? The green lines are my primary air lines. There is a little hole where the corrosion is, between the main box and what looks like a "cap" on the left hand side. Is it possible to rebuild/reseal these or do you just toss it and buy another one?!? Also, my air gauge leaks, too. :P

wal1809: thanks for the story, and also the lead on the engine. Unfortunately, the engine that I have is an 8V92, not a 71. I wish! Otherwise, I'd jump on that in a heartbeat!!!No worries, I am not discouraged at all. Just one step at a time. :)

The boxes are air valves to control a couple of different functions in rear including loading and unloading your tag axle.air bags etc...go to prevost web site under puematic digrams..if you last 3 or 4 # of your serial # won't unlock digram try 747...if this doesn't work pm me and i'll give you another # mabe 0747..try needle scaler like you use in welding to clean rust off parts...

Quote from: robertglines1 on March 05, 2010, 04:49:02 AM
What year is your prevost? is that a 6v92;just noticed rod #5 stamped on end cap? my computer won't bring up a clear enough picture to say it is toast but don"t look good..:repair or used engine is a decision you have to make...good used engine is generally less dollars than rebuild,lot less..There are busnuts in area that can help you Nick Badame in NJ and many more.. There should be a date stamped on bearings (if detroit)that should give you some idea when it was installed.part of part number...Just suggest you start new topic on engine problems...just a bump in the road plenty of work to do before you need a motor..There is a letter before the last 5 or 6 numbers of your serial number...what is it ??

Yeah, at this point, I am trying to find a used engine to just swap over. I don't have the tools (or the beginning of the know-how) to tear the thing apart and rebuild myself, and I'd really like to do as much of it myself, or me with friends, as possible.

I don't like to just "send things off" to go be fixed or rebuilt. When the time comes that it happens again, then once more I will be relying on someone else. That takes most of the spirit out of it for me. Half of the reason why the bus is such a wonderful thing in my mind is also the idea of the independence that it provides; the freedom. And, certainly there will be times when I am in over my head, I accept this. For most of it, though, I want to stick within the confines of my own ability and my own budget, wherever possible.

You asked me for the serial number, and I keep on forgetting to look at the bus, or my title.  :-\ duh! Will get on this, really!!

Quote from: robertglines1 on March 08, 2010, 02:19:44 PM
The boxes are air valves to control a couple of different functions in rear including loading and unloading your tag axle.air bags etc...go to prevost web site under puematic digrams..if you last 3 or 4 # of your serial # won't unlock digram try 747...if this doesn't work pm me and i'll give you another # maybe 0747..try needle scaler like you use in welding to clean rust off parts...

Again, I'll check my serial number. This is great help, thank you.
And yes, needle scaler would be *awesome* !! Where to find/borrow one of those.... hmm.

The needle scapers aren't too bad, but you'll need a fair sized air compressort to keep up with the work load. Harbor Freight probably has them.

Paul

Don't know nuffin about prevosts but do know that you might as well hold off on batteries until you are almost ready to roll, if the battery is just sitting there, it does it no good but get old and they have a limited shelf life.  YOu also  don't really want to leave an old bus with the batteries hooked up unattended, especially during construction,  because buses like to burn, and shorts start fires. More pleasurably earned  experience, 1 fire (mechanical)and 2 smoldering smoke almost fires (electrical) to date.

Quote from: Dreamscape on March 08, 2010, 02:52:55 PM
The needle scapers aren't too bad, but you'll need a fair sized air compressort to keep up with the work load. Harbor Freight probably has them.

Paul

I have a decent air compressor that I use regularly to air up the bus :) will check out HF thanks!

Quote from: zubzub on March 08, 2010, 03:24:51 PM
Don't know nuffin about prevosts but do know that you might as well hold off on batteries until you are almost ready to roll, if the battery is just sitting there, it does it no good but get old and they have a limited shelf life.  YOu also  don't really want to leave an old bus with the batteries hooked up unattended, especially during construction,  because buses like to burn, and shorts start fires. More pleasurably earned  experience, 1 fire (mechanical)and 2 smoldering smoke almost fires (electrical) to date.

At this point, I am trying to figure out some basic things that either do/dont work on my bus. There is much work that I can do before the engine goes in, before I can drive off down the street!
I keep the external switch off when I am not using anything, obviously!! But, I'd like to know where I am at in terms of indicator lights, dash stuff, etc. Just so that I can start piecing together my bus. :)



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btw, when I took this picture, absolutely nothing happened. I flipped the switch and heard a little "click" from a relay or something, and then... nothing! After hooking up the other bus to mine, I got the radio to play, though! Hoorah!

Thanks for the words of caution, I will keep this in mind!

Good to know you have a master switch (I don't) like I said don't know nuffin 'bout Prevost.
If you have a 12V bus you can use any old battery to check the systems, I have a wee little one that I use for working on the electrics, take it home and charge it up when the day is done.  Oh yeah, when it's time to hit the road I'llprobably pull some batts from recently scrapped buses in the yard where my bus lives.  If you have/know of anywhere like that, it's the cheapest way of getting batts.  I like transits as the city takes care of them with decent batts etc...til the day they die. 

For messing around while you're working, just go to a junk yard and get a couple of used car batteries and hook'em up.  This will give you a good test of your electrical system - if the batteries hold a charge without being hooked up, and they don't while being hooked and the master switch is off, you know you have some electrical issues to chase.  Glad to see someone else here that's under 40 years old!  The hobby needs more of us!

Glenn

DRT,

Firstly, I am awed.  Thank you for your example and sharing yourself and your journey.

There are SOOOOO many things that you should plan for....I'll just throw out a couple that you can add to the list:

Insulation is paramount and merely a choice for you at this point.  The floor construction I have seen that makes sense is multi layered.  First a sheet of plywood, then a sheet of LEAD, then a layer of poliso sheet foam and then a final sheet of plywood.  All these layers should be glued and when you are done it will stop noise, be strong and give you "some" insulation.  Later in the process, you will have foam sprayed on the walls and ceiling and you can also add a layer to the roof of the bays/underside surface of the floor.

Preserve any engine/trans access holes in the rear floor.

Layer the floor over the engine compartment with lead sheeting and insulation....sprayed or fit.

Use tongue and groove plywood.

I think that fiber glass resin is as effective as two part paint and much cheaper.  Look for advice but they make boats out of the stuff.

Get a few gallons of "OSPHO" rust CONVERTER.  The fishing boats use it by the ton.  It is a thin liquid of diluted acids that converts any rust to a really hard stuff that doesn't rust very quickly.  It is intended that you paint over it.  It is thin enuf that you can apply it with a fly sprayer.  I have never seen it mentioned on this board and that makes me wonder.

The most common and serious advice I have seen that is associated with a conversion is PLAN! PLAN! PLAN!  Then mock it up and try it out 3D.  Maybe you could put in the floor before you get into the planning but I suspect that the Heavy Hitters here might disagree or relate proper cautions.  I haven't done it but I have been listening to them for a few years.

You need Harbor Freight. Nuff said!

It was mentioned but I willsay it again.  You must have the coach sitting level and true for the conversion work.  The surface must be level and the bus must be level, both.  This is foundation stuff.

You WILL eventually paint the roof Pure white using high grade auto paint.  You can expect to be working on that bad girl in the summer sun and the interior will be intolerable even with air conditioning if the roof is dark and the spray foam isn't complete.  It seems counter productive but I think you need a SLOW reducer to eliminate overspray consequences.  Get advice from the body shop supply(paint) store.  Air compressor and high volume gun???

Is it true that you just saunter around the block and diesel mechanics and electricians and HVAC etc guys just follow you home to see if they can help?  You sound like you have some super friends and it sis obvious you are making more.

Go and visit Gumpydog site and book mark that sucker.  It is the bus conversion equivalent to the JRT book you admire.  You are so talented a photo Dude andwriter maybe you can record you step by step journey forte board and other venues.  You are a trip all by your self.

God Bless....God Speed

John

Anja the bay in front of the master switch has another  switch mounted on the side of the frame high that controls 12 volt circuit and your ddec system.take your present batteries and have them load tested.one bad cell in one bat can mess the hole system up..

Quote from: Tenor on March 08, 2010, 04:18:21 PM
For messing around while you're working, just go to a junk yard and get a couple of used car batteries and hook'em up.  This will give you a good test of your electrical system - if the batteries hold a charge without being hooked up, and they don't while being hooked and the master switch is off, you know you have some electrical issues to chase.  Glad to see someone else here that's under 40 years old!  The hobby needs more of us!

Glenn

Yes indeed, we'll keep it going. I know of a couple others, too... but we're few and far between. ;)

Quote from: JohnEd on March 08, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
DRT,

Firstly, I am awed.  Thank you for your example and sharing yourself and your journey.

Ah, my pleasure. How else will I learn if I don't put myself out there and ask questions? :)

Quote from: JohnEd on March 08, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
There are SOOOOO many things that you should plan for....I'll just throw out a couple that you can add to the list:

Insulation is paramount and merely a choice for you at this point.  The floor construction I have seen that makes sense is multi layered.  First a sheet of plywood, then a sheet of LEAD, then a layer of poliso sheet foam and then a final sheet of plywood.  All these layers should be glued and when you are done it will stop noise, be strong and give you "some" insulation.  Later in the process, you will have foam sprayed on the walls and ceiling and you can also add a layer to the roof of the bays/underside surface of the floor.

Preserve any engine/trans access holes in the rear floor.

Layer the floor over the engine compartment with lead sheeting and insulation....sprayed or fit.

Use tongue and groove plywood.

I think that fiber glass resin is as effective as two part paint and much cheaper.  Look for advice but they make boats out of the stuff.

Get a few gallons of "OSPHO" rust CONVERTER.  The fishing boats use it by the ton.  It is a thin liquid of diluted acids that converts any rust to a really hard stuff that doesn't rust very quickly.  It is intended that you paint over it.  It is thin enuf that you can apply it with a fly sprayer.  I have never seen it mentioned on this board and that makes me wonder.

The most common and serious advice I have seen that is associated with a conversion is PLAN! PLAN! PLAN!  Then mock it up and try it out 3D.  Maybe you could put in the floor before you get into the planning but I suspect that the Heavy Hitters here might disagree or relate proper cautions.  I haven't done it but I have been listening to them for a few years.

I saw your post a little earlier, I will check it out and see how it rates with the other busnuts! :) I have a friend who is a boat builder, and I had asked him about sourcing some materials through his suppliers. I will ask about this. Great suggestion, thank you.
As for planning, oh yes!
On the forum a few days ago, someone had suggested a website where you can build a 3D model of your interior or something like that? I opened up a new tab with the website, but then never bookmarked it and have since forgotten. *sigh*  :P

But yes, planning and insulation definitely! I may be contacting you again when I get to the flooring and insulation step to get suggestions for specific products and sourcing.

Quote from: JohnEd on March 08, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
You need Harbor Freight. Nuff said!

It was mentioned but I willsay it again.  You must have the coach sitting level and true for the conversion work.  The surface must be level and the bus must be level, both.  This is foundation stuff.

You WILL eventually paint the roof Pure white using high grade auto paint.  You can expect to be working on that bad girl in the summer sun and the interior will be intolerable even with air conditioning if the roof is dark and the spray foam isn't complete.  It seems counter productive but I think you need a SLOW reducer to eliminate overspray consequences.  Get advice from the body shop supply(paint) store.  Air compressor and high volume gun???

Is it true that you just saunter around the block and diesel mechanics and electricians and HVAC etc guys just follow you home to see if they can help?  You sound like you have some super friends and it sis obvious you are making more.

Go and visit Gumpydog site and book mark that sucker.  It is the bus conversion equivalent to the JRT book you admire.  You are so talented a photo Dude and writer maybe you can record you step by step journey forte board and other venues.  You are a trip all by your self.

God Bless....God Speed

John

I have visited the grumpydog site - amazing. It is bookmarked on my internet browser, I will be referring to it again, thank you.
I am planning on renting some garage space, or moving the bus to another location when I do some of the later work, yes. I have some ideas in mind. It will all fall into place when I need it to. :) White paint: again, YES! Summer in New England? Warmth? What? Hmm... I have almost forgotten!

And, I wouldn't necessarily call it "saunter" but as with most people, I tend to find friends who are interested in the same things that I am, and I like to talk about it and ask questions. And, I don't just sit on my butt and feel sorry for myself with all of my projects, no! I get out and explore, and get involved in things. Most of my great contacts and great friends I met while I was rally racing, or watching friends rally race, car shows, or gatherings of some sort. I met my diesel mechanic friend at a Volkswagen club get together when I was showing off my grease conversion that I did myself. He appreciated my "unique" set up (as I am truly no mechanic) and gave me ideas on how to make it better. We have been friends ever since!

Thank you, John. :)

Quote from: robertglines1 on March 08, 2010, 04:53:08 PM
Anja the bay in front of the master switch has another  switch mounted on the side of the frame high that controls 12 volt circuit and your ddec system.take your present batteries and have them load tested.one bad cell in one bat can mess the hole system up..

I think I know what you are talking about - it is above the battery bay attached to the ceiling. Will do. I'll post of a pic of it when I get a chance to make sure I'm on the same page.


~Just for Clarification~
I feel like its a no-brainer at this point, but there still seems to be some confusion.

There is only one person using this user name, and that is me: Anja. I am not representing some other person who owns this bus, (ie, it is not my father's, it is not my boyfriend's, it is not my husband's, etc.) it is just me, and the bus is mine. I found it, I bought it with my own money, and it was entirely my idea. There were no other outside influences convincing me that it was a good idea, I have truly always wanted to live in a bus, and to build it myself out of an old coach bus. Thus, when I found the Prevost, I had to buy it.

Now, I understand where the confusion is coming from, because from what I have learned recently, it is strange (or not ordinary), for girls to like buses, let alone buy one and take on the project of fixing one up. And certainly not a 23-year-old girl. Okay, this is fine, but... who cares! Hell, we're all strange! We like buses. So what.

Also, in various emails and messages, the overall theme is to warn me of the huge project that I am about to take on, and to worry that I do not have what it takes to stick with it.
So...
I would just like to say that I am sure that you will all watch me (or read about me, here) getting frustrated, becoming disappointed, completely screwing something up and having to start all over again (I'm good at this one), and failing on some parts of this project. Fine, we all do that.
What you won't see, however, is me giving up. I don't do that. Not on something like this.

So, when you give me advice, or you see me making an error of some sort, please don't worry about hurting my feelings, or damaging my delicate little spirit. Hell, no! I'd much rather have you tell me how it is. I know its going to be tough, I know it's going to be expensive, I know that as soon as I fix one thing, another will probably break.

I am not going anywhere, and neither is the bus. "Urge" and I have all of the time in the world. I do appreciate all of your care and concern. It is very sweet and it does fill me with happiness and courage.

Update on the bus: I have finished sanding down all of the major rust spots on the frame. I cut out a few completely rusted beams, and I will be grabbing some new stainless steel beams to weld back in their place. Then, I will be completely ready to paint.
I also am getting a few samples of different 2-part epoxy paints from my boat builder friend to try out and see which ones I like, so I will be sealing up my marine plywood here soon as well. Then I will be figuring out what I want to do with the floor from there.

Unfortunately, I will be swamped with midterms for the next week (yes, I am still in school, but I'm graduating in May, hoorah!) so the progress will be stalled until those are over. I'll update and post pictures again once more progress has been made.

Thank you, everyone.
Peace!

-Anja

Now this is the kind of spirit we all should take in! I'm just catching up on you and your "Dream" bus. I like the attitude, we all have that "Feel Good" feeling when we first start such a huge project. It will try to wear you down, step back and take a deep breath.

I applaude your attitude and age, for me that was 37 years ago! ;D

Paul

Anja,

Like I said in the past, I like your spunk. Keep it up (are you sure it is your bus, and not a friends bus? ;D :D :D ;D). Personally I find it kinda funny that people think it is too big a project for you. Sure you will get bogged down sometimes, but oh, well. BTDT. It isn't a big deal. Keep it up. You will get there sooner or later.

Now, about the bus. Great progress. Getting that rust taken care of is huge! You want your frame to be good, because that is the foundation of your bus. Good job for starting at the basics.

God bless,

John

I swear you remind me of Pink!!  You dern sure have spirit. What vehicle are you running grease in? I do bio diesel 100.   Before I got super busy I was brewing 400 gallons a month.  I run 2 TDIs a tractor an Excursion and a Kabota lawn mower all on BD100.  

Anja,
I look forward to seeing your progress, and completely support you in this project! (long distance support of course!)
And as I said in our PM's back and forth, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!
The only dumb question is one not asked or asked too late!

I am still in awe of your talent and determination! And I can tell you at times it will be very rough. But you show a very strong and positive attitude and I feel you do great!

Looking forward to your updates!
;D  BK  ;D

By the way I happen to know of a rebuilt 8V92 mechanical engine still in the bus (MCI 9) and at the place where the work was done and the bill not paid! (as soon as I decide if I will buy it or not I will be happy to disclose the location if I don't buy it for my MCI!)

Anja,

QuoteOn the forum a few days ago, someone had suggested a website where you can build a 3D model of your interior or something like that? I opened up a new tab with the website, but then never bookmarked it and have since forgotten.

It was me  ;D It is sketchup.com When you get it downloaded let me know and I will email you a copy of mine.

BTW You have a great attitude and sounds like you have the skills and ability to do and learn all you will need to get your bus project done the way you want it.

Keep posting your progress, you go girl  ;D ;)

Bryan

Quote from: wal1809 on March 10, 2010, 06:21:38 PM
I swear you remind me of Pink!!  You dern sure have spirit. What vehicle are you running grease in? I do bio diesel 100.   Before I got super busy I was brewing 400 gallons a month.  I run 2 TDIs a tractor an Excursion and a Kabota lawn mower all on BD100.  

Thanks for asking! I converted my 1980 VW rabbit to run on WVO
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1.5 NA 40 hp goodness! I drove across the country twice in this thing !!

and my other car (the winter beater/ rally car) I run B100 when its not freezing out!
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1982 M. Benz 300D

Like I have said before, the bus is my only vehicle that's younger than me! haha

When I lived in portland, OR, I was part of a biodiesel co-op and made all of my own fuel. It was awesome! Since moving back to the NE I haven't had the time or the space to do so. :(
Good for you for making your own fuel!! Fight the system!! Reduce our dependence on foreign oil!! *cheers*

Thank you all.

sketchup.com - thanks Bryan!

BK - I'll be checking back with you about that engine!! Mechanical, so you mean non-turbo? Mine is turbocharged, supercharged. Aren't the NA's the earlier models (not the silver) ?
Well, you can only tell a silver by the VIN anyways, people are always painting them to increase their value!

Supposedly the DDs are one of the best motors for running bio and WVO - which is great, I've got a spare fuel tank, and I'd love to build a system for the bus.

Also: the bumper on the rabbit was my first 'big' welding project. Unfortunately, while in storage, someone stole it right off, hellas and all. :( So, I've got to make a new one.
*sigh*
oh well. more practice!

People are eating french fries and dieing of heart attacks so you can drive around on WVO!!?  ;D  But as with my bikes and the bus, the journey working on them is actually better than the journey after they are complete. I just love working on stuff. Have fun!

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 10, 2010, 08:28:36 PM
BK - I'll be checking back with you about that engine!! Mechanical, so you mean non-turbo?

No, actually mechanical refers to it not having the DDEC engine computer.

There are lots of pros and cons of DDEC that have been discussed to extremes.  Personally I like MUI (mechanical/non-DDEC).  For all the positives, the big negative in my book on DDEC is that SO many things can make it decide to shut down the engine during operation or refuse to let it start.  Some are legitimate reasons to shut it down, like overheat, low coolant, low oil pressure, etc.  But just a few aggravating causes people have reported are loose wires, bad grounds, internally broken or corroded wires, bad sensors, wind, rain, sun, clouds or dogs barking.  ;)(ok just kidding on the last 5, but sometimes it seems that way)

Ah, alright.
Yeah, my engine is a DDECII, so that wouldn't work.
Apparently, as I've been told, the Allison trans also is controlled by the computer.

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 11, 2010, 05:23:17 AM
Ah, alright.
Yeah, my engine is a DDECII, so that wouldn't work.
Apparently, as I've been told, the Allison trans also is controlled by the computer.

Anja,
That may be true, but the bus is a running driving bus! It has a Allison 740 (can you say bullet proof?) in it!
I know, I know I'm gonna get flamed for even suggesting you go from a DDEC & 748/750 combo to a mechanical & 740 but hey you want to do a WVO on it anyway right? (keep in mind I know NOTHING about WVO converting!) But I understand WVO is much easier to do an a mui than a DDEC!

Of course the engine in the parts bus I told you about is a DDEC II.
;D  BK  ;D

Quote from: divinerightstrip
Also: the bumper on the rabbit was my first 'big' welding project. Unfortunately, while in storage, someone stole it right off, hellas and all. :( So, I've got to make a new one.
*sigh*
oh well. more practice!

Way to go! I love your spirit!
Man I hate a thief!
You go girl! ;) (again I love that attitude!)

;D  BK  ;D

This won't last ::) but you don't burn veggie oil in these....

DRT,  I am going to remove my black water tank, fresh tank and the generator and go back with new higher capacity tanks of welded steel or aluminum.  I might go on a build another for WVO.  

I have an idea for heating the WVO.  It would be easy to weld in a 1 inch coupler at the top and bottom on the sides of the tank.  From the coupler you could run a pipe to a 110V  $40 clear water pump from Harbor Freight that runs off of shore power or gen power.  In the same pipe a 1 inch T can be arranged in the piping to allow a heating element from an electric hot water heater.  That would allow you to circulate oil over the heating element and it would control it own heat by thermostat.  Insulating the tank would be easy.

You could start on Dino Diesel and switch over when the heat meet requirements in the WVO tank.  I could use shore power when parked somewhere and while loading to go anywhere it could be heating on its own from shore power.  I could literally carry enough fuel in both the Dino Diesel tank and in the new one to take us all the way to Vegas and half way home.

It would be a lot easier than Bio D once the tanks are set up.  I have an idea for a  filtration system for WVO the would be easy as pie in the sky.  It is a series of tanks that drip into each other and the final product would be water free and filtered to 2 microns.  From there straight into the WVO tank.  A lot easier than making BD.  You would basically fill the top tank by way of the a clear water pump.  And when it comes to the bottom tank by gravity and time it would  be ready.

DRT what bio D plans were you using.  I built a Murphy's Machine (Google it).  It works very very well.

Anja,

My 2 cents on that engine.  A MUI or mechanical is the forerunner to the DDEC I, II or III.  When they talk about "electronic" engines the main point is the different injectors.  In the MUI the fuel is circulated to the injectors and a cam is used to compress the cylinder in the injector and create the pressure needed to "squirt" the fuel into the cylinder during compression.  Old School!  In the DDEC the fuel is more highly pressurized in what is called a"common rail" which is really a high pressure manifold.  That rail is plumbed to each electronic injector.  The "injector" is really an electronic controlled valve".  You apply voltage and it opens and lets fuel flow into the cylinder.  That rail is running at extreme pressures like 10,000 PSI.  It has to be cause it is having to "squirt" into the cylinder at compression and with that high pressure the injector orifice can be even more tiny than the MUI and will atomize the fuel so much better and that yields more complete burn and more power per unit and better MPG.  The point at which the fuel is injected can also be varied to take advantage of the different efficiencies that that flexability can contribute.  All this adds up to more power and greater efficiency for the DDEC.  Hands down and no question....way better MPG.

Then there is the down side....you knew there had to be one, right?  The DDEC ECU costs a couple grand.  It cost a grand, at least, more to have DD program the sucker.  They aren't all interchangeable.  Then there is the added complication of the TRANSMISSION ECU and the link to the DDEC ECU.  As BK says...so very complicated.  But notoriously reliable.  But when they hiccup!!!!!  Today it is getting harder to find a 2 stroke shop that has the tools and savvy to do DDEC.  Not impossible...just harder.  Shop rate is$100 per when you find him.  The MUI, on the other hand, is a simple D and while you need a savvy mech there are more that understand the MUI....and they are cheaper...sorta, and you will become one just by rubbing against it.

When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education.  That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

John

Oh and yes "Fight the system"!!!  My step son is int he Army.  He was int he Iraq take over from day one and has spent 3 tours already.  I can afford to buy fuel, I don't make it to save money although I do save money.  The stand has to come from the people not the government.  It has to come from ground up.  So for every ounce of fuel we purchase we get farther and farther into a problem we will never get out of if we rely on someone else to cure.  So literally from the ground, BioDiesel is my start at changing me.  I know single handed I won't do a thing.  But together we can change each other and stop this madness of everseas spending.

John,

I must gently correct your description of  DDEC injector operation. The DDEC injector, in fact, still uses the push rod/rocker arm to activate a plunger on the injector, just like the MUI and fuel delivery to the injector is the same as the MUI....no high pressure common rail. The DDEC system replaces the governor and rack controls and handles those functions electrically.

Bob

Yep - He described the difference between unit injectors and common rail systems -

*****************************

The wave of the future in diesel fuel
delivery is the so-called common rail
system, which features a single tubular
reservoir supplying all the injectors
with fuel pressurized to at least 18,000
psi. A rotary gear pump feeds fuel into
the common rail; the injectors are, in
essence, simply fast-acting needle
valves which open momentarily to support
combustion as required.
Very high injection pressure is a prerequisite
for any good diesel fuel delivery
system because forcing fuel through
a tiny nozzle at extreme velocity
achieves superior fuel atomization and,
ultimately, a more complete burn.
By contrast, the unit injectors still
found on most contemporary diesels are
compact, high-pressure piston pumps
that must not only meter the fuel, but
also boost it to the required high injection
pressure within a very brief time
interval. Like an engine's intake and
exhaust valves, most mechanical injectors
are actuated by a straightforward
cam system.
**********************************

FWIW

Bob,
Thank you.....really.  I did some reading in this, obviously not enuf, cause I was interested in B100 and WVO systems.  I still recall being advised that the WVO wouldn't work in the electronic systems because of the high pressure stuff and I thought that included the DDEC engines.  I really did think they were common rail.  Thanks.

NOW am I wrong about the comparative price between MUI injectors and DDEC injectors?  Or is that comparison only valid between MUI and common rail high pressure injectors?  The reason I ask is that ANJA wants to know all this stuff. :P ???

Thanks Bob

Been 5 yrs since I bought 8 remaned injectors for our 8V92 DDEC and with my garages discount I paid around $1800 with out tax.
But that was "jobber pricing", tax free, and 5 years ago! (oh yeah in Missouri too!)
;D  BK  ;D
YMMV

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2010, 08:41:21 AM
Anja,

My 2 cents on that engine.  A MUI or mechanical is the forerunner to the DDEC I, II or III.  When they talk about "electronic" engines the main point is the different injectors.  In the MUI the fuel is circulated to the injectors and a cam is used to compress the cylinder in the injector and create the pressure needed to "squirt" the fuel into the cylinder during compression.  Old School!  In the DDEC the fuel is more highly pressurized in what is called a"common rail" which is really a high pressure manifold.  That rail is plumbed to each electronic injector.  The "injector" is really an electronic controlled valve".  You apply voltage and it opens and lets fuel flow into the cylinder.  That rail is running at extreme pressures like 10,000 PSI.  It has to be cause it is having to "squirt" into the cylinder at compression and with that high pressure the injector orifice can be even more tiny than the MUI and will atomize the fuel so much better and that yields more complete burn and more power per unit and better MPG.  The point at which the fuel is injected can also be varied to take advantage of the different efficiencies that that flexability can contribute.  All this adds up to more power and greater efficiency for the DDEC.  Hands down and no question....way better MPG.

Then there is the down side....you knew there had to be one, right?  The DDEC ECU costs a couple grand.  It cost a grand, at least, more to have DD program the sucker.  They aren't all interchangeable.  Then there is the added complication of the TRANSMISSION ECU and the link to the DDEC ECU.  As BK says...so very complicated.  But notoriously reliable.  But when they hiccup!!!!!  Today it is getting harder to find a 2 stroke shop that has the tools and savvy to do DDEC.  Not impossible...just harder.  Shop rate is$100 per when you find him.  The MUI, on the other hand, is a simple D and while you need a savvy mech there are more that understand the MUI....and they are cheaper...sorta, and you will become one just by rubbing against it.

When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education.  That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

John

:)wow you must have some years on you, two cents doesn't go that far these day :)

Quote from: zubzub
:) wow you must have some years on you, two cents doesn't go that far these day :)

Oh zub thanks for the gut buster! I hadn't laughed that hard all week! ;)
;D  BK  ;D

John,

Your welcome. :)

You're about right on the mechanical injector price. A DDEC injector will be about $350, give or take.

Bob

Well!!!! Hrumph!!!!!  I wasn't nearly as amused as BK. :-\  It was pretty funny though..much as I might hate to admit that.

Well 350  to 70  is still an eye popper.  Thanks Bob.  Are they getting cheaper as the DDEC stuff retires or are they used in other engines?  And if the DDEC isn't common rail and the injectors are not dealing with high pressure then why the drastic price bump?

Glad you took it in fun John, couldn't help myself. :D

Aw Zub.  Your cool man, always.  The crime would have been to not share it.

Your friend,

John

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 11, 2010, 05:38:53 AM
I know, I know I'm gonna get flamed for even suggesting you go from a DDEC & 748/750 combo to a mechanical & 740 but hey you want to do a WVO on it anyway right? (keep in mind I know NOTHING about WVO converting!) But I understand WVO is much easier to do an a mui than a DDEC!

BK,
please always speak whats on your mind, regardless of whether you may be "flamed" or not. haha. Hopefully, we all have different opinions about a lot of this stuff. I'll be the one to judge what works best for me. :) I'm not sure which is easier to do WVO in, I'll have to look more into that.

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 11, 2010, 05:44:31 AM
You go girl! ;) (again I love that attitude!)

thanks! :D

Quote from: wal1809 on March 11, 2010, 08:36:53 AM
DRT,  I am going to remove my black water tank, fresh tank and the generator and go back with new higher capacity tanks of welded steel or aluminum.  I might go on a build another for WVO. 

I have an idea for heating the WVO.  It would be easy to weld in a 1 inch coupler at the top and bottom on the sides of the tank.  From the coupler you could run a pipe to a 110V  $40 clear water pump from Harbor Freight that runs off of shore power or gen power.  In the same pipe a 1 inch T can be arranged in the piping to allow a heating element from an electric hot water heater.  That would allow you to circulate oil over the heating element and it would control it own heat by thermostat.  Insulating the tank would be easy.

You could start on Dino Diesel and switch over when the heat meet requirements in the WVO tank.  I could use shore power when parked somewhere and while loading to go anywhere it could be heating on its own from shore power.  I could literally carry enough fuel in both the Dino Diesel tank and in the new one to take us all the way to Vegas and half way home.

It would be a lot easier than Bio D once the tanks are set up.  I have an idea for a  filtration system for WVO the would be easy as pie in the sky.  It is a series of tanks that drip into each other and the final product would be water free and filtered to 2 microns.  From there straight into the WVO tank.  A lot easier than making BD.  You would basically fill the top tank by way of the a clear water pump.  And when it comes to the bottom tank by gravity and time it would  be ready.

DRT what bio D plans were you using.  I built a Murphy's Machine (Google it).  It works very very well.

Wayne,
I agree, onboard filtration for WVO (a good, foolproof system) would be much easier than trying to mix Bio while on a trip. In a perfect world, you need several weeks to allow for settling and water separation, but I'd really like to save up and get a really nice centrifuge. The bus engine is far more valuable than the one in my rabbit, so I will do it once, and do it right. Lots of planning!

I am planning on using a stock fuel tank for the WVO. My bus came with a spare one! :D As far as heating goes, I don't think I would heat the entire tank. I would most likely use a similar setup to that of the one I did in my rabbit. I'd have an electrical heated pickup, which would go to a heavy-duty fuel filter, with another heater attached to it, then a heat exchanger before the engine. That should be sufficient, rather than to spend so much energy heating the entire tank, when you aren't needing it all to be hot at once. Keep in mind, its also all needing to be 175ish, and that's also going to take a bit of time to get the entire tank that hot. I'd prefer to have it available asap.

I've seen the Murphy's in use before. Someone who I found on Craig's list with 300D parts, heated his home and ran two of his vehicles and tractor with it. Very cool!

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2010, 08:41:21 AM
When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education. 
For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

John, all such great info. This gives me a great foundation, and options that I didn't know were available to me.

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2010, 08:41:21 AM
That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

I'm very flattered. *blushes*

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2010, 11:35:34 AM
I still recall being advised that the WVO wouldn't work in the electronic systems because of the high pressure stuff and I thought that included the DDEC engines. 

What would be the problem? Not high enough viscosity in the bio/size of the oil molecule vs dino diesel?

Quote from: wildbob24 on March 11, 2010, 01:36:04 PM
A DDEC injector will be about $350, give or take.

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 11, 2010, 11:46:10 AM
Been 5 yrs since I bought 8 remaned injectors for our 8V92 DDEC and with my garages discount I paid around $1800 with out tax.
But that was "jobber pricing", tax free, and 5 years ago! (oh yeah in Missouri too!)
;D  BK  ;D
YMMV

Ouch! So when I hear about guys upgrading the injectors to create higher HP, it's costing them this much??

Nothing new on the bus this weekend. I have the paint now, but its raining like crazy today as it has been all weekend pretty much. Also, I worked yesterday and had a 2 1/2 hour midterm to complete. It went well though. Hopefully more soon!

-A

Quote from: JohnEd on March 11, 2010, 11:35:34 AM
I still recall being advised that the WVO wouldn't work in the electronic systems because of the high pressure stuff and I thought that included the DDEC engines.

I've been wondering this same thing myself.   I can understand why a high-pressure common-rail injection system using piezo-controlled injectors that squirt multiple times per "bang" (such as is used in most European diesel cars) may not be happy with WVO or SVO, but wouldn't a DDEC work with any fuel that's OK for a MUI engine?   If the injectors are essentially similar, both using a mechanical pump to actually squirt the fuel, and the DDEC merely replaces the governor and rack etc (as well as provide safety shutdowns), why not run non-diesel fuels in a DDEC Detroit?   I'm wondering what's required to convert from DDEC II to MUI  -  has anyone here actually done this and lived to tell the tale?   For the miniscule distances I drive and ever will drive my bus, I don't care if I lose one MPG and smoke a bit more, and I can take care of looking at the gauges to safeguard the engine.   In these fiscally-challenging (ahem) times, lower repair costs down the road would be worth the conversion if it didn't cost too much.   So, who here runs WVO or SVO in their DDEC II 6V92?

(How much does a gallon of cooking oil cost these days?   Less than $3.19?)
John

Captain Ron aka Charely Davidson was running it in his 8V92 DDEC but he ain't been on the boards (at least this one for ages). I don't have a clue as to how it's going for him.
I hadn't personally talked to him in ages, and last time he was in town he didn't let me know he was coming or even here until he was looking for a car wash his bus would fit in, and I was in the middle of a crazy busy weekend.

It'd be nice to hear how it's working out, but I know he and others that stay pretty low key on it just so they don't have to hear all the flak about how what they are doing won't work!
again YMMV
;D  BK  ;D

Quote from: Iceni John on March 14, 2010, 04:55:45 PM
I've been wondering this same thing myself.   I can understand why a high-pressure common-rail injection system using piezo-controlled injectors that squirt multiple times per "bang" (such as is used in most European diesel cars) may not be happy with WVO or SVO, but wouldn't a DDEC work with any fuel that's OK for a MUI engine?   If the injectors are essentially similar, both using a mechanical pump to actually squirt the fuel, and the DDEC merely replaces the governor and rack etc (as well as provide safety shutdowns), why not run non-diesel fuels in a DDEC Detroit?   I'm wondering what's required to convert from DDEC II to MUI  -  has anyone here actually done this and lived to tell the tale?   For the miniscule distances I drive and ever will drive my bus, I don't care if I lose one MPG and smoke a bit more, and I can take care of looking at the gauges to safeguard the engine.   In these fiscally-challenging (ahem) times, lower repair costs down the road would be worth the conversion if it didn't cost too much.   So, who here runs WVO or SVO in their DDEC II 6V92?

(How much does a gallon of cooking oil cost these days?   Less than $3.19?)
John

Shouldn't cost anything, they have to pay to dispose of it. Just time, and some filtration material.

I would think that Bio would make it smoke less, esp. since lowering the allowed amount of sulfur to diesel back in 2007. Sulfur is the primary lubricating agent of diesel fuel, but bio has enough lubricity on its own to not require the aid of an additive. When I need either of my cars to pass emissions (which, now that they are both reg'ed as antiques, they don't have to anymore, but...) I would fill them up with Bio, and the smoke would go away. It makes them run smoother, IMO.

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 14, 2010, 05:08:53 PM
It'd be nice to hear how it's working out, but I know he and others that stay pretty low key on it just so they don't have to hear all the flak about how what they are doing won't work!
again YMMV
;D  BK  ;D

Yeah, I'd like to know too!
BK - what does YMMV mean?

Wait just a minute... yes something new about the bus, just not good news (surprise, surprise!) Speaking of the recent rain, I have been discovering more and more leaks in the bus. First nice, clear day I plan on power washing the roof of the bus, and resealing the seams. Any advice on how to go about this/what materials to use/ etc? Then I'd like to paint the roof at some point as well.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4617.jpg&hash=bfb64734f3356ab766849df38d7de3df259ff3d7)

I have noticed some leaks along the seams where the sealant has started to deteriorate. There are a few all along the ridge between the roof and the side of the bus where I removed the storage units. I have a feeling that I will find the same thing once I remove the storage units on the other side. Also, the driver's side window and the crosspiece between the 4 pieces of windshield glass.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4612.jpg&hash=3777fe2c8192fd68ed554e09f7e9080c26bd8c43)

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4613.jpg&hash=d1894ac642efdb7c6758b5d541b1e45ea3e06972)

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4614.jpg&hash=236ced67d7ba851d113c9394b43b314dc08b99ca)

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4615.jpg&hash=94baa4d880001181a36584f5de9101a4ffaf120e)

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4616.jpg&hash=b68e59bdd4c256e5c82236bc11ca9ad63db33be5)


:P
-A

YMMV  = Your Milage May Vary  ;)
;D  BK  ;D

I painted the top of my enclosed trailer with a paint that I got from the hardware store that has insulating qualities. It is a rough textured paint and can be applied with a roller. I'm thinking it was called Kool Seal or something of that nature. I'll look at the can when I go back to work. As far as repairing seams I would use seam sealer from an automotive store. 3M makes some pretty good stuff that body shops use for sealing panels. The paint has somewhat of an r factor and reflects a lot of heat. It also sealed up some leaks my trailer had. Good luck....

"Auto Seam Sealer" by 3M.  Dries with just enuf elasticity and is paintable.

Kool seal does what the mfr says so there is truth in advertising.  Lots of discussioin on this stuff.   used it for years.  You need to scrub it with Tide and bleach to remove the mildew and kill it.  The dirt also needs to be removed.  You need to repaint every 2 or 3 years.  It bleeds and runs white lines down the side of the coach.  There are a few variants and mfrs of this stuff and all are close.  Paint your roof on gte outside with high grfade auto paint in "bright/pure White."  Cleans easy and NEVER needs repainted.  EMRON was designed for airplanes and will defeat ultra violet at 35,000 feet....get the pic?  Search KOOL SEAL and ROOF PAINT etc.

Paint it yourself.....roof and sides!!!!!

John

I used an elasotomeric white roof product from Lowes or Home Depot 6 years ago while living in So Cal. It does not run or leave a chalky residue and helps to keep the interior much cooler. It is made by Henry. Slap it on with a heavy nap roller, I did 4 coats and didn't even use the whole 5 gal bucket. It does need to be freshened up, but otherwise it has worked very well. I sealed the seams with a paintable latex caulk and have never had a leak.

Paul

Quote from: Dreamscape on March 15, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
I used an elasotomeric white roof product from Lowes or Home Depot 6 years ago while living in So Cal. It does not run or leave a chalky residue and helps to keep the interior much cooler. It is made by Henry. Slap it on with a heavy nap roller, I did 4 coats and didn't even use the whole 5 gal bucket. It does need to be freshened up, but otherwise it has worked very well. I sealed the seams with a paintable latex caulk and have never had a leak.

Paul

I used Henry's this last weekend.

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 14, 2010, 05:08:53 PM
Captain Ron aka Charely Davidson was running it in his 8V92 DDEC but he ain't been on the boards (at least this one for ages). I don't have a clue as to how it's going for him.
I hadn't personally talked to him in ages, and last time he was in town he didn't let me know he was coming or even here until he was looking for a car wash his bus would fit in, and I was in the middle of a crazy busy weekend.

It'd be nice to hear how it's working out, but I know he and others that stay pretty low key on it just so they don't have to hear all the flak about how what they are doing won't work!
again YMMV
;D  BK  ;D

I talked to him the other day on the telephone and he is up to 30,000 on WVO and nary a problem yet.  I am just shy of the 10,000 gallon threshold with bio 100 diesel.  I run it in 2 TDIs, an Excursion, tractor and a Kabota zero turn lawn mower for three years and nary a problem.  I am a firm believer problems can occur when using an alternative fuels.  I am also a firm believer it is not the fuel that is the problem it is lack of quality control per individual.  If you have high fuel standards and conduct the tests for every batch you will win the game.  If you don't do your research and make a poor quality batch then you will suffer the cost.

I spoke with Charley a while back and he was rebuilding his engine.  I think it was Charley but I am sure it was a Knut.  I was asking if he was still running WVO and how things were working out.  I held my breath when he said my engine is out for a "complete overhaul".  I have heard a lot of guys say they are down after only 20.000 miles and only a few have badmouthed the SVO but that group didn't give it a ringing endorsement  either.  Now there is Charley.  He said that his engine was due for an overhaul when he first started using WVO.  He also said that there was no deposit in the engine that discouraged him in the least and that the newly overhauled engine would also run on WVO.

This morning I spoke with the owner of Enviro Fuels here in Orygun.  He says he can install WVO on a Common Rail and it will have no problems.  Starts and stops on DinoD and the veg is heated up really hot, above 180, and filtered and dewatered.  You can achieve their level of purity by letting it sit and settle WARM for a few weeks.  He says he has an armfull of natives that are running a conversion and would be happy to talk to almost anyone that isn't Govy.

You want weird?  There is a group on Yahoo that is called "Blenders".  They mix WVO or WMO or old hydraulic fluid with GASOLINE and make fuel that doesn't need heated.  In the summer the use 25% Gas and in the winter they use 50%.  There are a lot of them and some are claiming 10 or 20 or 30 thousand miles.  Scary!

I wish we had a sticky where those that are doing this can share.  I expect to brew Bio and I hope to have a D truck by then.

John

Quote from: wal1809 on March 16, 2010, 11:33:59 AM
. . . I am just shy of the 10,000 gallon threshold with bio 100 diesel.  I run it in 2 TDIs, an Excursion, tractor and a Kabota zero turn lawn mower for three years and nary a problem.  I am a firm believer problems can occur when using an alternative fuels.  I am also a firm believer it is not the fuel that is the problem it is lack of quality control per individual.  If you have high fuel standards and conduct the tests for every batch you will win the game.  If you don't do your research and make a poor quality batch then you will suffer the cost.

You are one of the few that are actively treating this as seriously as it should be. Far too many gloss over the importance of fuel quality & the different use procedures.

It is the false hype (used to lead people into something they can't sustain) that I dislike. For some, this alternative fuel is a viable endeavor. For others, it will cost more than it could ever be worth - it all depends on your abilities, resources, & your situation (or lifestyle for lack of a better term).

I wish loads of success to all who wish to persue alternative fuels.

Quote from: JohnEd on March 16, 2010, 01:18:37 PM
I spoke with Charley a while back and he was rebuilding his engine.  I think it was Charley but I am sure it was a Knut.  I was asking if he was still running WVO and how things were working out.  I held my breath when he said my engine is out for a "complete overhaul".  I have heard a lot of guys say they are down after only 20.000 miles and only a few have badmouthed the SVO but that group didn't give it a ringing endorsement  either.  Now there is Charley.  He said that his engine was due for an overhaul when he first started using WVO.  He also said that there was no deposit in the engine that discouraged him in the least and that the newly overhauled engine would also run on WVO.

This morning I spoke with the owner of Enviro Fuels here in Orygun.  He says he can install WVO on a Common Rail and it will have no problems.  Starts and stops on DinoD and the veg is heated up really hot, above 180, and filtered and dewatered.  You can achieve their level of purity by letting it sit and settle WARM for a few weeks.  He says he has an armfull of natives that are running a conversion and would be happy to talk to almost anyone that isn't Govy.

You want weird?  There is a group on Yahoo that is called "Blenders".  They mix WVO or WMO or old hydraulic fluid with GASOLINE and make fuel that doesn't need heated.  In the summer the use 25% Gas and in the winter they use 50%.  There are a lot of them and some are claiming 10 or 20 or 30 thousand miles.  Scary!

I wish we had a sticky where those that are doing this can share.  I expect to brew Bio and I hope to have a D truck by then.

John

Yes Sir I got a bud that has run 70% WVO and 30%gasoline for 10 years.  He tells me I am crazy to brew BD100 or set up a wvo tank.  He pumps from his collection barrel into a tank in the bed of his truck through a filter until the tank is at the 70% mark.  He then goes to the gas station and fills the rest of the way.  After he drives for a while to mix it up he pumps through a filter into his truck tank.  He still laughs at me for making fuel.  It is not for me.

Quote from: wal1809 on March 16, 2010, 11:33:59 AM
I am a firm believer problems can occur when using an alternative fuels.  I am also a firm believer it is not the fuel that is the problem it is lack of quality control per individual.  If you have high fuel standards and conduct the tests for every batch you will win the game.  If you don't do your research and make a poor quality batch then you will suffer the cost.

I couldn't agree more. I have seen this problem all too often, and even in myself in my beginning stages of learning and designing the system.

Quote from: JohnEd on March 16, 2010, 01:18:37 PM
This morning I spoke with the owner of Enviro Fuels here in Orygun.  He says he can install WVO on a Common Rail and it will have no problems.  Starts and stops on DinoD and the veg is heated up really hot, above 180, and filtered and dewatered.  You can achieve their level of purity by letting it sit and settle WARM for a few weeks.  He says he has an armfull of natives that are running a conversion and would be happy to talk to almost anyone that isn't Govy.

John, are you referring to Nate from EnvioFuel? :)

Quote from: JohnEd on March 16, 2010, 01:18:37 PM
I wish we had a sticky where those that are doing this can share.  I expect to brew Bio and I hope to have a D truck by then.

Yeah! Let's start one! :)

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 15, 2010, 06:26:46 AM
... Sulfur is the primary lubricating agent of diesel fuel, ...

If you will be making your own fuel, you ought to be aware that sulfur is not a lubricant and has never been the "primary lubricating agent of diesel fuel."  In fact, sulfur is terrible for diesels all around, because it forms sulfuric acid in the combustion process, and sulfuric acid eats engines.  It also forms harmful POCs in the exhaust.

What is true, however, is that the process used to remove the sulfur from the fuel also removes aromatic hydrocarbons.  It is these aromatic hydrocarbons that are responsible for lubricity, and the lubricity lost during the removal process must be added back later, before the diesel is sold as motor fuel (and it is, indeed, added back before any fuel reaches a retail dispenser).

We've discussed this issue many times on the board, not under the heading of alternative fuels, but instead in some rather heated discussions about the possible deleterious effects of ULSD when that fuel became mandatory.

Also:

QuoteShouldn't cost anything, they have to pay to dispose of it. Just time, and some filtration material.

True right at this moment.  Also possibly true for the remaining lifetime of some of us on this board  ;)

However, I can state without equivocating that WVO will not always be free for you.  It is already the case in some very progressive parts of the country that local bio-fuel production has put severe downward pressure on the price waste oil companies can demand for removal service, and in some places, they have even had to start locking the receptacles to prevent theft.  I would expect the equation to reverse itself completely within the next decade or so, as the ever-increasing price of fossil fuels begins to make it viable for WVO companies to process the oil into motor fuel on a commercial scale, instead of feed and other low-value products.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

OK, forgive all the late posts here, but I am just now catching up on this thread (a six page thread is a bit daunting).

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 08, 2010, 03:51:35 PM
btw, when I took this picture, absolutely nothing happened. I flipped the switch and heard a little "click" from a relay or something, and then... nothing! After hooking up the other bus to mine, I got the radio to play, though! Hoorah!

Umm, OK, I am going to venture a guess here that the "other bus" is the PD4106 shown in photos elsewhere in the thread.  And I did see in that photo a set of jumper cables between the buses.

I'm no GMC expert, but I thought the 4106 was a 12-volt bus.  If so, and considering your Prevost is a 24-volt coach, I would not expect much of anything to work when connecting the two together.

The radio is one of the few 12-volt items on your bus, so if you happened to jump the 4106 to the "lower" battery on the Prevost, yes, the radio would work.

If I am wrong about the 4106, please ignore the foregoing.

Also, I would strongly advise you to disconnect any DDEC ECM or ATEC ECU you have on board completely before doing more troubleshooting on the electrical system.  These devices are very sensitive to bad voltage, reverse polarity, etc. and are expensive to repair or replace.  Get the basic electrical system working first before reconnecting the computers (if any).  You won't need the computers until your crank is replaced anyway.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

Hi Sean,

The 4106 in the picture is mine, and you're correct, it's 12vdc.  

What we were trying to do was charge the batteries on Anja's bus.  We disconnected the some of the cables on her batteries to make two 12vdc batteries in parallel.  We did this with all four to create two separate 12dvc groups, then used jumper cables from each 8D on the 4106 to each series on the Prevost. After an hour, we disconnected and rehooked everything up.  We got about 2 minutes of the radio and one warning light on the dash.

In short the batteries are too far gone.

I'm heading to her place tomorrow to help out with sealing and painting the roof on her bus.  We're going to install a new fridge in mine!

(Edit! Thanks Sean! Too many "Beverages and Buses"!)

I'm going to see if we can remove my house batteries and use those to get some power into her electrical system.  That should be easy, they're 6vdc T305 deepcycles.

Quote from: OneLapper on March 19, 2010, 07:57:47 PM
...  We did this with all four to create two separate 12dvc groups, then used jumper cables from each 8D on the 4106 to each series on the Prevost. After an hour, we disconnected and rehooked everything up.  We got about 2 minutes of the radio and one warning light on the dash. ...

So was that an hour of running the main engine on the 4106 to charge the depleted batteries, or just an hour of hooking them together?  If it was the former, then, yes, they would charge (all else being good), but not if the latter.

I recommend you remove all the batteries, make sure they are properly watered, then charge them individually with a standard 12-volt battery charger such as you can find in any auto parts store.  Then check the specific gravity with a hydrometer, a couple bucks at any parts store.  You might find a bad cell or two in the group, or you might not.

In any case, for the troubleshooting that needs to be done between now and getting the crank done, pretty much any pair of standard 12-volt auto batteries will suffice -- no need to spend big bucks replacing the batteries with what is already there.  That Prevost would have been factory-equipped with a pair of 8D starting batteries.  Even after the engine is repaired, unless the OEM road A/C is staying in the bus, there is no need for such large batteries; we start our bus with a pair of group-65 batteries from Wal-Mart.

With no running engine with which to charge the batteries, they will need to be removed almost daily and connected to a charger (or purchase a 24-volt charger so they can be charged in place).  Otherwise they, too, will suffer an early death.

This coach was likely equipped with a Vanner 50-60 battery equalizer, and it is important that the equalizer is working properly, otherwise the lower battery will over-discharge and the upper one will over-charge.  I would test the Vanner shortly after getting working batteries in place.

Lastly, I would make certain to disconnect the batteries at the end of each work session, at least until a permanent charge source is installed.  There are several phantom loads that will eat the batteries in fairly short order.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

I have a 89 and it has 4 ea 31 serries.fyi

Hi folks,

The '84 Prevost Le Mirage XL we had also had 4 group 31 batteries. The battery compartment was behind the rear baggage compartment, accessed from the baggage compartment, and was configured for 4 group 31 threaded post batteries. Any batteries larger than group 31 would not have fit. The radio in our Prevost was a 24 volt REI with PA and audio connections for a video system. Our bus was a seated coach when we bought it. I have seen Prevost buses that were manufactured as conversion shells that do have 8D starting batteries but those buses have both start and house batteries in the area where the axillary restroom holding tank was on our bus. I am adding this information only for the sake of discussion. YMMV

Thanks, Sam MC8

DRT,

John, are you referring to Nate from EnvioFuel?

Yes!  Per your suggestion I called them. Nice folks and very helpful. Nina(?) also called me back.

Thanks for the steer


John

All of the older XL series Prevost of that vintage I have ever worked on have had the 4 group 31 batteries located in the back wall of the rear luggage bays. Some of the "newer" ones have 8D's.
FWIW
;D  BK  ;D

And yes like Sean said just get a couple junk yard batteries to use until it is road worthy.

Quote from: Sean on March 19, 2010, 10:03:30 PM
I recommend you remove all the batteries, make sure they are properly watered, then charge them individually with a standard 12-volt battery charger such as you can find in any auto parts store.  Then check the specific gravity with a hydrometer, a couple bucks at any parts store.  You might find a bad cell or two in the group, or you might not.

Hmm. Interesting idea. I'll try this at some point!

Quote from: Sean on March 19, 2010, 10:03:30 PM
With no running engine with which to charge the batteries, they will need to be removed almost daily and connected to a charger (or purchase a 24-volt charger so they can be charged in place).  Otherwise they, too, will suffer an early death.

Lastly, I would make certain to disconnect the batteries at the end of each work session, at least until a permanent charge source is installed.  There are several phantom loads that will eat the batteries in fairly short order.

Oh yes. I noticed this. After charging them, hooking them up, and then coming back less than a week later, they were dead. :(
Good to know. I'll add a good charger to my wish list!

Quote from: JohnEd on March 20, 2010, 09:45:17 PM
DRT,

John, are you referring to Nate from EnvioFuel?

Yes!  Per your suggestion I called them. Nice folks and very helpful. Nina(?) also called me back.

Thanks for the steer

John

John, no problem! Glad that you got a chance to meet them. They are incredible people. I miss them! Did you happen to mention that I sent you? If you pronounce my name correctly, and mention that I have a little white VW rabbit, I bet they'd still remember me 2 years later! :D

Quote from: Busted Knuckle on March 21, 2010, 08:13:34 AM
All of the older XL series Prevost of that vintage I have ever worked on have had the 4 group 31 batteries located in the back wall of the rear luggage bays. Some of the "newer" ones have 8D's.
FWIW
;D  BK  ;D

And yes like Sean said just get a couple junk yard batteries to use until it is road worthy.

Indeed. junk yard batteries = *thumbs up*
And yes, the 4 batteries in the luggage compartment.

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FWIW?
-A :)

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 22, 2010, 03:06:35 PM
...
And yes, the 4 batteries in the luggage compartment.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv651%2Fjeordie%2FDSCN4553.jpg&hash=b7d39abb54d5363c0d6a12f52e5e36e7e74c4dc4)

So are those 6v or 12v batteries?  The factory batteries would have been 12v group-31's, but an earlier post suggested you had 6v batteries in there now.  The photo is too small for me to tell.

Quote
FWIW?

= For What It's Worth
(if the "?" was a request for translation)

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

Yes, that was what the "?" was about, thanks. :D

And the batteries are 12v. Pay no mind to OneLapper, he sniffed too much seam sealer this weekend.  ;D

I also wanted to share a few pics from this weekend, but it's time for me to get out of the office and head home. Be watching, I'll post some up later this week.
Thanks to everyone who gave me some excellent suggestions for my leaky roof! It rained again today, and no leaks yet - AWESOME!

For What It's Worth ;)

So, it is raining pretty hard here in New England right now. In fact, this would be a perfect example of a day when I would be sitting inside at work, worrying about how many 5-gallon buckets of water I'll have to dump out when I get down to my bus this evening.
Such is not the case today.
Why?
Well.
Last week, the Northeast was blessed with a warm spell. I was lucky enough to have my "spring break" from school, though I ended up taking on even more assignments at work. However, I took Thursday off and spent the entire day down at the bus, pressure washing the roof of ol' Urge.

Well... let me correct that. I tried to pressure wash... and I did well for the first, oh, 5 feet of roof or so until the pressure washer ran out of fuel and sucked some old fuel tank chunks into the pump and stalled, and wouldn't start up again. I ended up doing the rest by hand!!

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4628.jpg&hash=fb6970fd77947724c7e1238e6a9e4ead6a32e71a)
(The washer is better now, though. I used it to wash the undercarriage and rails the next day!)

Then I used some 3M scour pads, and went over the entire roof of the bus, and also removed a bunch of old, chipping, gummy sealer from eons ago that wasn't serving any purpose.

Saturday, bus buddy OneLapper and I had a bus and BBQ weekend. Saturday, we sealed the roof of my bus with 3M Auto seam sealer. Note to self (and others): "brushable" seam sealer... LIES! No way can you brush that stuff on and have it look nice and also form an effective bond to your roof. We ended up applying it with our gloves and went through about a box and a half of gloves between our two buses.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4661.jpg&hash=8685f8bb5471f62dd01c5de07b5ca8d10c87bd41)

As we waited for the sealer to dry, we had some beverages, BBQ'ed, and built a bonfire. Then we watched a really weird movie and fell asleep in the bus.

The next day, we gathered some painting supplies and rolled on coat #1 of the white elastomeric coating onto the roof of Urge. Amazingly, this completely hid the ugly gray, lumpy lines of seam sealer.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4683.jpg&hash=37408be68bf6e9a6fd9a1831260b7d5108a5d5c5)

Wow, look how great this looks, and its only coat #1!!!

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4720.jpg&hash=24c4d3551575ef84f5373943b3263c7f9cbf75db)


I can see how someone else might be a little envious....

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We got the job done so quick, that we still had plenty of time and sunlight to do bus #2!

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4705.jpg&hash=be7361f65516131e8a8bc02129229fe416257e49)

I sanded while he sealed. Luckily, I had bought two cans (I think I had a hunch that both buses needed roof love!).

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4711.jpg&hash=df3f57b1ab707d56a8fc2481279a6c0bd8096964)

And by the end of the day on Sunday, both of our buses looked better than ever!

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FAnjasRallyPhotos%2FBus%2520Photos%2FDSCN4721.jpg&hash=9b2acb9fd18ea8ee05fd3bb4e075427ad4aeffed)

TA-DA!

Anja,

Looking good! mine next  ???
Did you get started on your sketchup yet?

Bryan

Looking good nice job.

Those roofs look great.  Sure makes a difference.  I'll bet the bright white surface will make a big difference in how much the sun heats the inside up in a month or two.

I went through the same thing a week ago.  Your bus looks good.

Hey Anja, & Onelapper,
From what I can see looks like y'all missed some spots! ;)
I really think you need to practice some more before you try to touch up your buses. So here's the deal I'll let you guys come down spend the week-end doing the 3 white buses we have, and when yer done we'll all relax while having a beverage or 3 or 4 and moving our shop, & office to the "new" (to us anyway) facility we just got word we are the new owners of! ;)
;D  BK  ;D

I'll even supply the sealer, paint, BBQ and refreshments and Bus/Trailers! ;D

Hey Anja, & Onelapper,
From what I can see looks like y'all missed some spots! Wink
I really think you need to practice some more before you try to touch up your buses. So here's the deal I'll let you guys come down spend the week-end doing the 3 white buses we have, and when yer done we'll all relax while having a beverage or 3 or 4 and moving our shop, & office to the "new" (to us anyway) facility we just got word we are the new owners of! Wink
Grin  BK  Grin

I'll even supply the sealer, paint, BBQ and refreshments and Bus/Trailers! Grin

---------------------------
Shameless, Shameless, Shameless BK, A free add for free labor and then on top of that you came through with a bribe at the end. Very nice and smoooooth. I bet you have sold a lot of ocean front property in Tenn haven't you?  Free food on the barbie Q, as George Burns once said ( I'm thinking it over ). Through in a free bus and I'm there. LOL   

WVaNative

Quote from:  author WVaNative
Shameless, Shameless, Shameless BK, A free add for free labor and then on top of that you came through with a bribe at the end. Very nice and smoooooth. I bet you have sold a lot of ocean front property in Tenn haven't you?  Free food on the barbie Q, as George Burns once said ( I'm thinking it over ). Through in a free bus and I'm there. LOL   

WVaNative

Hey beverages too! And you might ought to be careful I do have 2 parts buses I either have to find a home for or move to a new place (I am not sure where I will store them at first but there really is not room at the new location for both of them until some ROOM is made! ;) !)
;D  BK  ;D

Wow!!!! beverages and two buses now you got me hooked LOL But can you real me in to shore and land me. Dang BK you sure know what kind of bait to use when you go fishing ol buddy.

WVaNative

I missed the discussion on the Roof coating/sealer, but I did notice the 5 gallon can in the picture, so I googled Black Jack and found that they make two different types..........the one you used which is a 7 year coating, and the Ultra that is a 10 year coating............what made you choose the 7 year, and It did look nice!    Who told you about this product.....?  The local Lowe's carry's it here and the 10 year is only $3 more on the 4.75 gallon pail!.........Do you think it will chalk?

BK, if you happened to live a little closer, I would have been glad to invite you along to our re-roofing party! True, its hard to turn down anything that involves beverages and buses... I see how one might easily be hooked here... hmmm... ;)

Quote from: muddog16 on March 23, 2010, 04:52:09 PM
I missed the discussion on the Roof coating/sealer, but I did notice the 5 gallon can in the picture, so I googled Black Jack and found that they make two different types..........the one you used which is a 7 year coating, and the Ultra that is a 10 year coating............what made you choose the 7 year, and It did look nice!    Who told you about this product.....?  The local Lowe's carry's it here and the 10 year is only $3 more on the 4.75 gallon pail!.........Do you think it will chalk?

That was OneLapper who was at Lowe's trying to make a decision. He was at the store, I was in the bus scraping the rubbery materials off of the railing to start my rust bullet. We were talking on the phone with a lousy signal, with only two options to choose from! There was no "Ultra" for us to pick, only the BlackJack and another type which was a 3-year coating.
I figure, it was painless enough to wash the roof and put it on... we'll see how it works out! I'll keep a keen eye on it, because I do spend quite a bit of time on top of my bus, especially in the nice weather sunbathing (I want to eventually have some sort of platform up there). I'll report back. The only way to know is to try.
I'll be sure to let you know!

Quote from: Iceni John on March 14, 2010, 04:55:45 PM

I'm wondering what's required to convert from DDEC II to MUI  -  has anyone here actually done this and lived to tell the tale?   For the miniscule distances I drive and ever will drive my bus, I don't care if I lose one MPG and smoke a bit more, and I can take care of looking at the gauges to safeguard the engine.   In these fiscally-challenging (ahem) times, lower repair costs down the road would be worth the conversion if it didn't cost too much.  

Can I bring up this point again?

Perhaps I should start a new thread about it... :P

Quote from: divinerightstrip on March 24, 2010, 08:05:02 AM
...
Can I bring up this point again?

Perhaps I should start a new thread about it... :P

I would strongly recommend you do that.  This one has gotten a bit too large for anyone just coming along to wade through, and I am sure you will get more participation from the elder statesmen of this forum if you start a new thread with a properly descriptive title.

I have an answer to this question, but it the interests of not having to switch back and forth, I will wait for the other thread...

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

Quote from: SeanI am sure you will get more participation from the elder statesmen of this forum if you start a new thread with a properly descriptive title.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)

Especially if you post pics of you sunbathing on top of the bus! They will be all over that making sure your being safe so as not to get hurt! ;D
;D  BK  ;D