After finding two stripped lug bolts on the rear of my 4104 I was surprised to find out that they are not like truck lug bolts.
These bolts are serrated and tapered like others but are held in the hub by nuts instead of having heads like most lug bolts??
I had always assumed new ones could be found at any heavy vehicle parts store. Not so, my local guy can't even get them.
Luckily I found them at my closest bus parts guy. I have no idea if other buses have this type but it is a good idea to find out ahead of time.
For reference they are Euclid p/n E-5920 w/L or R at the end for the thread direction you want. These are the 3/4" rears and come in different lengths. Fronts are larger, I didn't get that number but I did order five extras for each wheel.
Now comes the fun part of changing them - any helpful ideas?
There's a page on my website that shows some do's and don't's on changing them.
Best is to take the hub off and check the bearings and replace the seals, if you haven't done that recently. It's easiest to get the studs out with the hub off, but not impossible to
do it with the hub on. Disassemble the brakes and get them out of the way if you leave the hub on.
Basically, take the retaining nut off and drive the stud out of the hub with a large hammer. Put antiseize on the new stud and insert it in the hole. Then use a length of pipe about
1" diameter to just fit over the stud and seat on the flange and drive the new stud into the hub. Install new crimp-lock retaining nut and torque to specs. Pretty simple. Do not pound
on the stud end to insert it in the hub. That will compress the stud and swell it and your wheel nuts won't fit. Don't pull it in with the retaining nut. That could stretch the stud and fatigue
it. They should be pressed in using the flange or on a large hydraulic press.
craig
I just consulted my manuals, both the original & the rebuild (PD4501). I was disappointed they didn't cover replacing wheel studs.
Use Craig's site it is second to none.
John
Quote from: johns4104s on February 26, 2010, 11:07:53 AM
Use Craig's site it is second to none.
Wow. When you really stop and thing about that saying, it's not really a good thing. Isn't it really saying that my site ranks second to having no site at all?? ::)
HMMM, I read it as your site is never second to any site, always first. Jack
Good stuff Craig, thanks. Your website is on my bookmark.
As Kyle says, my manual has absolutely nothing about studs except it at least shows a drawing.
What should the stud nuts be torqued to?
Stud piloted wheels should be torqued to 475 PSI.
Jack
Quote from: gus
Good stuff Craig, thanks. Your website is on my bookmark.
As Kyle says, my manual has absolutely nothing about studs except it at least shows a drawing.
What should the stud nuts be torqued to?
Quote from: jackhartjr
Stud piloted wheels should be torqued to 475 PSI.
Jack
Jack he's referring to the stud retaining nuts themselves. FWIW
;D BK ;D (the politically incorrect busnut ;) !)
Replace them all! I know, it's not my money I'm spending...but since you are right there with the hub off anyway, these studs do get wear so just replace all 10 of them while you are there and you will probably never have another problem...especially with the age of GMs etc. Might as well replace the lug nuts too. Now granted, I sell parts, but also maintain a fleet of vehicles too.
Dave,
That thought occurred to me but I only ordered 5, dumb! I found another marginal one today so I plan to use all five of them and order 5 more.
It would be nice if a re-threading tool existed for these bolts. A regular die is too large in diameter to do the job. Even a thread chaser would be nice but the bolt may be too hard for either. Or, the threads may be rolled for all I know!
Hmm... Torque. I don't know. I just used my 1/2" impact wrench on the retaining nuts. I know. I'm not supposed to say those nasty words on this forum, but....
Quote from: gumpy on February 27, 2010, 09:48:54 PM
Hmm... Torque. I don't know. I just used my 1/2" impact wrench on the retaining nuts. I know. I'm not supposed to say those nasty words on this forum, but....
;)
that's the way I do it! But then I take a breaker bar and a cheater pipe to it one last "little pull" just to be sure! ;)
;D BK ;D
By the way Gus yes replace all 10 and be done with it for as long as you'll own the bus!
Well, I have one 1/2" air wrench that goes to 150lbft and one 1/2" that goes to 650!!
I think I better find a standard thread/torque chart somewhere!!
I assume these bolts are grade eight?
My bet is they are better than grade 8. The nuts are grade 8, so I'd think if you followed the torque chart for grade 8, you'd be good. I may use loc-tite if there is one suitable for the temps that the hub will see from the brake drum . . .
Quote from: kyle4501 on February 28, 2010, 07:37:04 PM
My bet is they are better than grade 8. The nuts are grade 8, so I'd think if you followed the torque chart for grade 8, you'd be good. I may use loc-tite if there is one suitable for the temps that the hub will see from the brake drum . . .
Trust me Kyle, Gus (& anyone else) these nuts do NOT need Loc-tite! I have replaced many of them over the yrs and only once used Loc-tite.
And it was that once that I had to remove them again due to a tire shop screw up (not realizing they were left hand threads, and the driver didn't know any better!) using a torch on the nut (X3) and getting it red hot then stripping the threads completely out of the nuts before calling me and telling me they couldn't get the nuts off to change the tire!
I took the driver a different bus, helped the tire shop change change the tire. And limped it home to fix the damaged studs. (threads full & had been heated)
Once back at the shop we played heck getting the nuts back off the studs and ended up using an 8' cheater pipe on a 1" drive breaker bar to break them lose (after the 1" impact would not do the job!)
So if you tighten the nuts properly, or like Craig does (or like I do ;)) I can assure you they aren't coming off on their own!
FWIW JMHO YMMV
;D BK ;D
If you use the correct LocTite, it is easy to remove IF the joint is at the proper temperature.
Like I said, I'd have to look into what was available.
BTW, my bus has aluminium hubs that WILL crack if the wheels or studs are too tight. - That is why I choose to seek out the manufacturer's specifications & do my best to understand them before I follow or modify them.
Removed
I didn't know there was a bolt higher than grade 8??
I'm just getting ready to remove the nuts so don't know if they are high heat lock nuts.
I think these are 3/4 NF threads so 300 L-F may be about right.
I ordered five more bolts so I can replace all, should have thought of that long ago
The hardest part for me was removing the brake drum, that thing is a monster for an old guy like me.
I was surprised to find the hub lock nut on really tight and with no lock washer of any type! First time I ever had to stand on a 2' ratchet handle to remove a hub nut!
I was also surprised to find the hub full of oil and no grease in the bearings. Maybe the oil dissolved the grease because I'm sure these are not oil lubed bearings since they have two grease seals. I think the oil leaked through the key slot that holds the washer between the two lock nuts.
Quote from: gus on March 01, 2010, 06:43:58 PM
I didn't know there was a bolt higher than grade 8??
Grade 8 is the highest 'standard', but there are higher strength bolts made from special alloys.
For bolt torque, here is a pretty good article explaining how the torque value is determined & what it does.
http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm (http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm)
Note the reduction of applied torque required to get the same clamping force with waxed vs. plain or zinc plated hardware.
Based on that website it appears 400 - 500 l-f should do it. This makes sense since the lug nuts are supposed to be 400 - 450. The bolts are cad plated which, I presume, is equivalent to zinc.
There are sure a bunch of "ifs" concerning torque.
Never heard of waxed bolts before?
It does have a lock washer, it is just a type I never had seen before and the manual does call for a "firm" tightening of the lock nut. Mine was definitely firm!
Almost all of Euclid's wheel end hardware is grade 8
Gus,
My manual calls for 300 - 325 ft-lbs for the inner nuts
& 350 - 400 for the front & rear outer nuts.
Most hardware is oiled. If not left over from the manufacturing process - then added to prevent them from rusting before they are sold.
Waxed is a catch all term for lubricated. Different lubrication has different friction reducing factors - which is why the factory calls for dry threads - much more consistent results.
I'd think 400 ft lbs on the 3/4"-16 stud retaining nut would be best. You wouldn't want that one snapping off because it wasn't as dry as you thought . . .
This coming from someone who understands the problem of too tight - but still fights the urge to go "just a little bit more".
(Yes, I do have a rather large (& well used) assortment of thread repair taps & inserts) ::)
With regards to the nuts on the inside, they are refered to as 'back nuts' sometimes, and often are a locking type nut (crown/crimp head) so I do not believe that the torque is that critical.
Kyle & Dave,
Thanks. I like 300 - 325 ft-lbs for the inner nuts. The back of the stud is 7/8" diameter, not 3/4" as I thought. The front side is smaller at 3/4". It is interesting that the lug bolt back diameter is larger than the front and the front takes more torque?? The front inner wheel nut does have a lot more threads engaged though.
The backs must be lock nuts because they resisted until the last thread. Two still won't come off, may have to use a little heat. I can't use my trusty 6' cheater pipe because the hub is off the bus and I have no way to hold it.
Quote from: gus on March 03, 2010, 06:38:08 PM
Kyle & Dave,
Thanks. I like 300 - 325 ft-lbs for the inner nuts. The back of the stud is 7/8" diameter, not 3/4" as I thought. The front side is smaller at 3/4". It is interesting that the lug bolt back diameter is larger than the front and the front takes more torque?? The front inner wheel nut does have a lot more threads engaged though.
The backs must be lock nuts because they resisted until the last thread. Two still won't come off, may have to use a little heat. I can't use my trusty 6' cheater pipe because the hub is off the bus and I have no way to hold it.
We bolted it back on to a wheel and stood the up with it leaning against the shop wall with a wheel chock at the bottom and someone sitting on top of it while I used 300 + lbs. of my weight on an 8' cheater bar!
;D BK ;D
see:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=15160.new (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=15160.new)
I got the last two off today with my air wrench which supposedly goes up to 650 l-f.
Now my problem is getting the bolts out of the hub. I tried a few hits with a 3lb hammer with no effect except spreading the end of the bolt!!
Will a 12 ton shop press push them out?
I have a feeling I'm going to end up taking the hub to a heavy vehicle shop with a big press but first I'm going to try my little 12 ton.
I had to order the axle grease seals ($60 ea for the outside one) from the factory! The outside one is the biggest seal I've ever seen, it is more than just a seal, it also covers the end of the hub and the axle nuts and bearing. It is held on by the same studs that hold the axle to the hub.
Are you talking about the Stainless steel wiper seal thatslides over the axle?
John
Gus,
If your 12 ton press won't push 'em out, try 'ringing' the stud/ hub with a small hammer while the full force of the press is on it. I have a pneumatic air chisel & a dewalt rotary hammer (that I can switch the rotation off & use as a chisel) that I have used in the past to help press things off/ on. The ringing vibration helps more that you'd imagine.
Thanks for keeping us posted & best of luck!
I'll give the ringing a try, thanks.
John,
I don't think it is SS but may be, it is the last thing to go on the rear hub before the axle goes in. It covers the end of the hub except for the axle hole and has a plastic/rubber normal looking seal inside. It looks sort of like a flattened hat. It has to be removed to adjust the bearings.
Found out that 4104 rear lug bolts come in two different lengths. Seems the "early models" take the 4 5/8" length and the later ones take 3.5". Since my parts book only listed one length this came as a surprise to me?
The difference is in the splined shoulder area, the long bolt has a spline of 2" and the short one about 1". I presume this added shoulder length was the reason for such stubborn resistance. These could well be the original lug bolts, 56 years old.
I got two out using my 12 ton shop press. The third one seemed to be coming out when I noticed that the top beam of my press was bending, the bolt wasn't moving at all!! I took it in to my friendly auto parts store guy who has a 40 ton press. It took an average of 15-20 tons to remove the rest and one took 26 tons. I also compressed two pieces of 1.25" water pipe into "S" shapes in the process.
I can't hammer these back in using a piece of pipe because the shoulders are beveled, this would only spread and split the pipe. I have no choice but to press them in which should go ok if I lube them well. Plan to use antiseize on the splines.
You'll never be pulling those out...anti-sieze might be a bit of a waste!
Throw the studs in the freezer overnight and if possible heat the hub somehow (use the wife's oven! ;D) or even place one of those halogen shop lights on it for several hours. It will help.
I think something is not right? They should come out with a %ib hammer and go in the same way? Did you get them from Luke? If you didnt then you may, and only may have the wrong ones.
I have spent hours and lots of $$$ trying to match parts, when i should of checked with Bill and Luke to begin with.
I have one 1957, and two 1960 4104,s the parts have to be right if not lots of trip problems.
Check your vulcanised fan hub regulally because if it comes loose it will alow the fan to spin into the radiator. Been there done that 4hours from home 12 hours from wally world, it took me 24 hours to go home take the radiator,fan,fanhub from my parts bus. thow it all in a VW cabrilet, drive back to the bus Tami and I changed everything out, back on the road and was 12 hours late to Disney.
John
Dave,
Well, I'm pulling them out now, who is to say it won't happen again thanks to tire jockeys with huge air wrenches? The other studs not stripped are in relatively bad shape as well, I'm replacing all. From now on I do my own lug nut tightening with my little air 1/2" wrench and/or a torque wrench! It was just a matter of time before most of the others were going to be stripped.
Since the hub is Al it is especially important that something be used between the steel stud and the Al to prevent corrosion, this is the reason they were so tight. If I had realized yesterday the hub was Al I would have used a little heat on the hub, it would have made things much easier.
John,
Evidently 4104 hubs were changed to thinner steel later on during '54 or a little after. Believe it or not my hub is Al?? My parts guy tried to tell me this yesterday when we were using his press but I didn't believe him!!
I thought I saw some Al type corrosion on some of the studs we pressed out but thought I was imagining things
My studs are 4 5/8" but later ones are 3.5", all the difference in length is in the splined shoulder. The Al hub must be thicker than the steel. The Al hub is 2' thick where the splined shoulder fits in.
Chopper,
Heating and freezing are excellent ideas and I will do that, especially given the Al hub. Even setting it out in the sun will help.
This job is going to cost me about $500 for parts only and there are no bearings being replaced. I did pay the parts guy for his labor since he spent all afternoon with me at his press.
The two seals alone were $100 and had to be factory ordered. I ordered two extras just in case. I hate to think what it would cost to have it done but I'm never going to do it again!! I'm too old for this stuff!
Gus,
I have three 4104,s 2 1960 and one 1957. I also have a 1981 MCI 9, they all have aluminum hubs, the 4104 and MCI 9 are interchangable (thanks to John Vickers letting me know they were interchangable).
I have pulled hubs on the front,rear of both the bus types.I have had REAR lugs shear on the MCI 9. I have changed them out with the hub both on and off the bus.
I am told one reason that the lugs sheared was that the aluminum outer wheel attached to the inner steel wheel, disimular metals, did not have a teflon gasket between the two. I have added the gaskets.
John
Alu vs. steel. Generally the aluminum hub will be thicker than steel, you are correct.
I got one lug bolt almost in today when my jack slipped out of my press and threw stuff all over the shop. Broke a few things so I had to do some welding but am ready to start again tomorrow.
Freezing the lug bolts sure made a big difference. I tried them before and after freezing and the difference was amazing. Tonight I have the hub sitting on top of our space heater and the bolts in the freezer.
If I ever have to do this I'll know next time to heat the Al hub a little, that would have made things much simpler since Al expands so much.
John,
That is very interesting about all the hubs being Al. Also nice to know that the MC9 is usable. Do you know what length bolt the MC9 uses? Do you know why the bolts were changed from 4 5/8" to 3.5" and when it was done?
I assume the hub for the 3.5" bolt is thinner by about one inch but am puzzled as to why? Do you know if the hubs are interchangeable?
I've never seen a sheared lug bolt on a heavy vehicle, that is some force to do that. I don't know how you ever did this on the bus??
Are you back in TX yet?
All lug bolts are in, it should be back together tomorrow. I left the hub on the stove all night, it was 80*F this morning when I started pressing the bolts. It cooled off by about bolt 7 so I heated the last holes with a propane torch and they went right in.
I used liberal amounts of antiseize on the bolts for easier sliding in and to coat between the Al hub and steel bolt to help prevent corrosion.
I figure it took about 10 of the 12 tons of capacity of my little press because it was showing the strain! I had to reweld and reinforce the top brace on the press, it bent when I tried to remove the old bolts.
Now that I know the hub is Al, if I ever do this again I'll heat the hub at the bolt boss when I press them out.
The lug bolts I finally got are 5" overall, the extra 3/8" is on the back side. The originals are 4-5/8". Don't see any problem there.
I also replaced the suspension bumper, it was completely shot.
It is a relief to have this job almost over with!!
Got the 7/8" nuts on the back of the lug bolts installed today. I estimate they took 300 l-f of torque just to screw back on, they resisted every thread except the first two or three?
These nuts must be tapped for an interference fit because they are not egg shaped like some smaller metal lock nuts. I don't know how I would have ever gotten them on without my 1/2" drive 400 l-f air wrench, don't think my little 1/2" drive 150 l-f air wrench would have budged them.
For sure those things won't vibrate off!!
When installing wheels I run the nuts up with my 1/2" earthquake air wrench. Then finish them off with my $65.00 600Lb torque wrench I looked and looked till I found one at that price from a pawn shop) at 450Lbs.
When I have to remove the studs from the hub,and I have removed plenty. I either take the hub of the bus set it up on wood blocks and beat them out with a 5Lb hammer, right Dallas.
When the hub stays on the bus, I have a over sized nut that slips over the lug, then I run the original wheel nut down the lug and with the earthquake it pulls the lug out. I had three sheared on the drive axle in Chicargo. so I used the 5Lb hammer with lots of penetrating oil and beat them out. it took 5 long hours of hard beating.
Now I have all new Lugs on every wheel/I watch them like a hawk/dont let any tire guy run them up tight with a 1000Lb impact. I have the guy run them up tight then i finish them off with my torque wrench.
John
John,
I have a 1/2" earthquake air wrench also. I don't think it is capable of over-torquing the nuts.
I'm going to do the same as you, no more 1" air wrenches on my bus.
I also have a big torque wrench which won't fit inside the wheel well. However, it is of no use on the left side since it only works CW?
What I'm trying to do is to find the proper setting on my air wrench (It has 5 positions)and the air pressure necessary to give approximate 400 l-f and just use that from now on. When the nut stops very much turning that seems to be close but I'm going to calibrate it by ear and eyeball tomorrow.
I'm also going to mark the nuts with red paint to see if they move. Even if this results is slightly low torque it is better than wrecking the studs.
Last but not least I'm going to get a torque multiplier. With that thing I can tighten the nuts with a 3/8" torque wrench and about 7 l-f of torque!
I like your idea of the oversize nut to pull a stud out. When you did that how did you get the new one back in?
I would think that beating with a hammer while the hub is still mounted would wreck the bearings?
I found that beating with a hammer on a wooden block mostly made the block bounce around with little stud movement. This is the reason I went to the press. Next time I'll heat the hub at the stud boss now that I know the hub is Al, that should make a big difference. I think with heat I can press them out on my little 12 ton press.
Gus,
You tap the lug down to catch the splines then put the washer and nut on and pull them up with the earthquake.
As far as the touque multiplyer(TM). it worked for me to undo the lug nuts that a T-bar and 8ft steel scaffold pole would not break. But the inside drive wheel lug nuts are very difficult to work with the TM.
I use an extension to get me out and away from the inside drive wheel and a jack to support the exrension while I tourque them down.
I too am using a mark on the lug nut to make it easy to see if I have any loose movement.
John