Quite possibly I should be checking into an insane asylum. Am I crazy for wanting to do a roof raise and the required fiberglass work on my Dina?
At time I bought my bus I didn't think a roof raise was possible due to the lack of replacement caps. I have now seen in person a Dina that had the roof raised. The front and rear caps were cut and the gap filled in with fresh fiberglass.
I have done a little bit of fiberglassing, but never anything like a fiberglass vehicle body. I probably couldn't afford to hire this out, at least not this year. This is going to be a busy spring/summer if I do this.
I was thinking this might be a 2011 project, but now I'm thinking why not doit this year and get it over with?
Go for it, Brian. You can do it. I don't believe you will regret the extra room. We never did.
God bless,
John
Hey brian, it's all about the "Ways & Means" when them puppies come together, Whew Weee! ;D look out! ;) :) Go for it!
The first thing I will probably have to get is a decent MIG welder. I used a friend's 110 volt MIG welder before, but it would get warm and shut down after a few minutes of work.
I found a 220 volt MIG welder on Craigslist for $350. Anything special to look for on a welder?
Yep brian, your crazy, I know cause you own a bus, thats the first sign of the insanity. On a paper, I think it was called the Gypsy Journal? they had an article on roof raises that had a slick tool shown for holding the window supports in place after they were cut if you wanted to do the raise that way. You had to clamp the tool in place and then made the cut and it had an 'all thread' rod that you turned to raise the roof evenly all around, you had to have the homemade clamp at each cut, maybe someone can find that article ( I can't locate it) and post it as a possible method for those of us inflicted lol.
The big difference between a cheap mig welder and a quality mig welder is duty cycle. A hobbyist does not need a $1000 welder. We just need to let the machine rest during use. If you are going to be welding together 8 foot sheets of 3/8 in steel all day long, then you need a quality big buck machine. But for small welding jobs an inexpensive 110 volt machine will work fine. I find the 110 volt machine preferable for its portability.
I would shy away from a machine that is not capable of using gas. Gas makes everything so much easier and produces better welds.
What does the term "duty cycle" mean?
Duty cycle is a welding equipment specification which defines the number of minutes, within a 10 minute period, during which a given welder can safely produce a particular welding current.
For example, a 150 amp. welder with a 30% duty cycle must be "rested" for at least 7 minutes after 3 minutes of continuous welding. (When you are paying an employee for welding, anything less than 100% duty wastes money.)
Failure to carefully observe duty cycle limitations can easily over stress a welder's power generation system contributing to premature welder failure. Many welders do not have internal protection systems that prevent this sort of over stress -- leaving the task to the owner or operator.
Look carefully at welder specifications. Many welding equipment manufacturers will identify a particular welder by its maximum possible power generation capacity, even though that welder may only be able to produce that level of power for a short period of time.
For example, a given welder may be touted as a 200A welder. However, careful reading of the documentation that comes with the unit may show that the welder can only produce this rated power with a 20-30% duty cycle (or even less). There is a huge difference between this welder and another 200A welder that can produce its rated power continuously -- both in work capability, and in long term reliability.
Professional welders understand that almost all welding equipment manufacturers rate their welders using the maximum current that can be produced as the key specification -- not the 100% duty point. So to compensate, a pro will buy a 225-250A welder in order to get the100-150A 100% duty performance that they need to do their work.
Brian, the way Cody told you is the way ours was done. I was going to include a picture, but dont remember how to resize a picture.
The reason I brought up that method is because the article detailed it out so well with a lot of pics including the homemade jig that was easily put together but very tough and accurate, it takes the scare factor away for many people that might be concidering a roof raise.
Brian, fwiw when you get into fiberglass work find a shop that has a chopper gun the cost will be about 1/2 of hand glass work and you will get a better job.
good luck
Quote from: ruthi on February 05, 2010, 06:57:43 AM
Brian, the way Cody told you is the way ours was done. I was going to include a picture, but dont remember how to resize a picture.
I have a number of pictures I took of the welding and stuff in your bus. Do you have pictures of the roof raise process itself.
Brain, thats why I brought up that article, I can't find the article and was thinking maybe someone else had run across it, it had a lot of pictures and complete detailed instructions of everything they did including building the tool. I'm thinking that it would be a great source of information for one method of safely and accurately doing the job.
Brian, there are photos on the Eagle board and also Fred has some on Coach Conversion Central
good luck
We have a lot of pictures, I will see what all we have.
Brian, I'm not sure how the structural is on Dina........but I made the lifts and guides when I did my Prevost, there are photo's at my site......which is at the bottom, take a look and see if those will help you! Good luck!
Regarding the fibreglass work - I'm not familiar with the shape of the Dina caps or where you would propose to add the extra height, but generally speaking fibreglass work is very straightforward indeed as long as you understand the basics - just do some reading on the subject and experiment on some small jobs first. There are various ways your job could be done depending upon the shapes involved - by all means post a photo of your caps so I can get a better idea - but as a guide I would say that fibreglassing is certainly not something to be scared of, and is almost certainly an easier skill to learn than welding for instance (and no equipment to buy either).
Having said all that, fibreglassing is potentially a messy and/or dusty job, especially if you do it wrong, as you will at first - so that might be sufficient motivation for paying someone else to do it if you're half inclined to do so anyway. If talking to bodyshops I would advise not asking about chopper guns - chopper guns are for mass-production fibreglass work using moulds, which is exactly the opposite of the job you are contemplating. Even in production work chopper guns are best avoided - basically a chopper gun is like a paint spray gun that sprays a mixture of resin and very short lengths of fibre onto the mould, which results in a very heavy and stiff but comparitively weak structure. Hand lamination is much slower but allows a much better resin / fibre ratio (more fibre, less resin), and in addition the fibres are much longer - end result is a better laminate in all respects apart from the time it took to make it.
Hope that helps
Jeremy
oh well to each his own here you want find anybody doing major marine work RV work or Corvette's without chopper guns
good luck
Brian, i think you were the one who told me before the website to go to to resize my pictures to post. Give me the site again and I will try and post some.
Here are some photos of a Dina bus identical to mine. They show how I would cut the fiberglass caps.
These photos were shamelessly stolen from another thread on the forum. These are photos of Ruthi's Dina. I flew out to Atlanta in November to see this bus in person.
brian dont known how much you need to fill after you raise roof but i pulled the sides & roof off a moterhome
you can cut what you need then just fiberglass the seams a lot less work check local junk yards they might give
it to you i used it to skin sides and rear of bus today i am using some to make a sunviser over windshild a lot
eazyer then starting from scrach picture of the two sides of moterhome laying in my yard 40 ft long good luck
ps i have a roof raising vidio if you want one john
I do a fair bit of fiberglass work with my race cars, in fact one of them is a fiberglass tub monocoque. I tend to go for very light and adequately strong for the application, which always ends up being a couple of layers of cloth, mat on the outside for finish, and epoxy resin if repair work that needs to bond to existing 'glass, and polyester if new work or if strength isn't as much of an issue. Chopper gun is a good production technique if strength and weight are not issues - it is a good way to get a lot of material down, but the chopped mat has very little strength and the volume of resin also makes it weak, and very heavy. It's good for making boats, bathtubs, Corvette panels, but there are better ways if speed isn't the main thing. The reason you use epoxy in repair work is you are only getting a mechanical bond, not a chemical bond, to the existing material and epoxy is far better at that.
I make a lot of in-place molds doing repair work - I use materials at hand to create something I can lay some layers onto, then build up from there. If you use foam as the mold or to lay glass over, you need to use epoxy, as the polyester resin dissolves the foam.
a good way to do something large in place like a cap raise would be to build up the form of what you need from foam - styrofoam boards, shaped with sanders and knives and rasps, spray foam insulation carved to shape, etc, get it really close to shape, and lay the fiberglass over it, then remove the foam from the inside with scrapers and such. You can use filling modifiers (almost like gel coat) in the resin to get something to sand smooth, or even a light coat of bondo to sand smooth for the finish on the outside.
All that said, I hate doing fiberglass work! It's nasty, itchy, time consuming, dirty, dusty and nasty... But if you want it done right, sometimes you have to do it yourself.
Brian
So Brian, it appears you recommend epoxy instead of polyester for a job like this? Aren't the two primary advantages of polyester the cost and the ease of shaping the cured product? I have done fiberglass and epoxy on hobby rockets in the past and the cured epoxy seems to be near impossible to sand.
I found a guy who does fiberglass body work for $25 an hour, but he declined after I sent him photos. He said he couldn't do it because it wouldn't fit in his shop. I did ask if he could do it outside when the weather gets warmer.
Here are photos of Ruthi's bus after the fiberglass work was done. I couldn't attach them all to one post.
If I was patching into existing fiberglass, yeah, I'd personally use epoxy. If I wanted to be able to sand the exterior layers, I would use this stuff: http://westsystem.com/ss/410-microlight/ (http://westsystem.com/ss/410-microlight/) You can mix it to about the consistency of peanut butter and paint it on as the outside layer. I often use it almost as bondo for a top coat, or as a kind of gelcoat layer as the first coat into a mold, depending on what I am doing. It's really easy to sand. I use West system for all my epoxy stuff
If you aren't all that worried about strength (I don't think the cap of a bus is all that structural or load bearing, but I haven't really looked at them closely) then polyester will form an adequate bond with existing. You need to sand though the gel coat into the actual fiberglass, and you need to abrade thoroughly with 80 grit paper. You can't form a good bond to the gel coat. You also need to clean with acetone., then do your layup. If you do your layup in stages, if it gets hard and cured you need to de-wax the outside and treat it like existing - clean, sand extensively with 80 grit paper and so on. Polyester is cheaper than epoxy, but I tend to choose based on what I am trying to accomplish and the strength requirements, not the cost. I also buy both by the gallon, so once I have it, I just use whatever...
It's really important, with either method, to keep the amount of resin as low as you can while still saturating the cloth or mat. I paint it on with disposable paint brushes, and when I have it all saturated I mop up all the excess with paper towels to get it as dry as I can. Works really well. Also, the cloth is used to create strength, and the mat is used to create bulk and to make a smoother surface, but it isn't very strong.
hope this helps a bit. Like I said, I hate doing fiberglass work so I learned how to do it right the first time, so I didn't have to do it as much. I just do bodywork and repairs, I don't do much structural work.
Brian
Bevans is spot on with everything he says in my opinion, although personally all the fibreglass work I've done on my bus has been using polyester resin as for me the benefits of epoxy in that application don't outweigh the extra cost. But on my boats everything is done with epoxy as performance is the only consideration (and in fact polyester wouldn't work anyway as they're both built of epoxy & carbon).
One point to make about using polyester with foam - polyurethane foam works very well with polyester, so as long as you use the right foam there's no need to worry about it melting.
Having looked at the photos it seems that the gaps to be filled are basically in areas that are either flat or very shallow single curves - no compound curves, and no radii to speak of apart from the corners. If I was doing this myself I would probably do exactly as Crown suggested - get hold of some flat fibreglass sheet, cut it to fit the gaps and then just laminate over the joints on both sides. The corners can be dealt with either by 'glassing over a piece of shaped foam, or simply over a piece of cardboard that's been bent into the required curve and temporarily held in place behind the gap.
Incidentally - if you need lengths of flat fibreglass sheet to fill your gaps a good source is roofing suppliers - flat roofs are often sealed with fibreglass, and the suppliers sell various standard fibreglass profiles to go over the roof edges etc. Here's a typical range: http://www.fibreglassroofingsupplies.co.uk/store/-c-419.html?osCsid=56bba8a7750bf4658b83e320c236e7b8 (http://www.fibreglassroofingsupplies.co.uk/store/-c-419.html?osCsid=56bba8a7750bf4658b83e320c236e7b8)
Jeremy
We got some scrap fiberglass from a place that works on semi trucks. They just gave it to us.
Brian, here is a pic with the braces in place. If this works, I will post another one.
Here is another one of when it is raised and the extra tubing put in. I will try and take some new pics to post on the boards tomorrow, if it isnt raining.
Just to clarify, I am not using fiberglass on the sides. I am not too worried about the roof raise process itself. I am more worried about the fiberglassing.
The MIG welder I had been using is a little 110 volt MIG welder with no gas that belongs to a friend. I am looking at buying a used 220 volt welder for this project for $300. The guy says it takes a 50 amp circuit. It is probably complete overkill, but the price is right. It is located some 3 hours away so I'm not sure if I want to drive that far.
I need to add up the total costs for this project and see if I can really pull it off. Steel, Alucobond panels for the sides, plywood for the walls, fiberglassing supplies, and low profile roof airs start to really add up quick.
Brian,
Just a suggestion, if you decide to do this this year, be sure to allow plenty of extra time, so you do not have to scramble at the last minute to get it done in time for your annual trip. These kinda projects can easily take much longer than planned. Jack
Quote from: JackConrad on February 05, 2010, 03:14:04 PM
Brian,
Just a suggestion, if you decide to do this this year, be sure to allow plenty of extra time, so you do not have to scramble at the last minute to get it done in time for your annual trip. These kinda projects can easily take much longer than planned. Jack
Exactly - I'd be thinking far more about the time the job will take than worrying about the cost. Raising a roof is a big undertaking, with all the practical issues associated with the fact that the bus will be un-secure and un-weatherproof for a long period of time if you are only working evenings and weekends. It also affects just about all the work you've already done to the interior of your bus over the last few years.
Having said that, it's one of those things where you'll never be happy with your bus if you don't take the plunge and give yourself enough headroom now. You are presumably feeling that your current headroom isn't adequate, so it would be much better to bite the bullet now - putting the issue off whilst the conversion progresses further will just make it much more difficult to fix the problem later.
If you do decide to raise the roof, be generous. I raised mine as much as I thought I needed, and now
really wish I'd made it a just couple of inches higher. Contrary to my own advice though, I'm going to live with it as it is - having done that job once there ain't no way on God's green earth I'm doing it again for the sake of two inches.
Jeremy
speaking as a pretty self-taught weldor and fabricator who, after 25 years is starting to get competent at O/A gas welding and brazing, Mig, Tig on mild and stainless steel and aluminium, and who restores and build race car frames - cheap mig welders are the scariest, most dangerous machines out there, simply because it's so easy to do bad welds with them. You get the ground wrong, the steel isn't clean enough, there is a tiny bit of wind, you try to weld outside an enclosure, you get the feed and speed of wire wrong, the current wrong - and it's just so easy to create welds that do not engage both materials and the bead looks beautiful but it's just sitting on top of one side of the joint. You can do good work with them, it's just easier to do good work with a good tool. My Mig welder is a Lincoln SP170, it can be flux-core or gas shield (flux core is far far better for welding outside), it runs from a 220 volt outlet at 20 amps, so you can run a 50 foot extension cord no problem, which is really hard to do with a higher current machine, and it produces a really stable arc that you can control, so you have better control of the puddle.
All I'm saying is, don't cheap out on your machine. A good machine makes it easier to do good welds, and a vise versa...
Brian
Quote from: JackConrad on February 05, 2010, 03:14:04 PM
Brian,
Just a suggestion, if you decide to do this this year, be sure to allow plenty of extra time, so you do not have to scramble at the last minute to get it done in time for your annual trip. These kinda projects can easily take much longer than planned. Jack
I've been thinking about that too. I would probably start removing the interior around March 1st if I do this. I have until mid Sept to finish it. I have experience removing the interior and putting it back in and have a good idea on the time line for that.
I would probably start the major work around May 1st. Would it be reasonable to expect a month to raise the roof, a month to reskin and fiberglass, and another month to reinstall windows and interior?
I am trying to see if there is any way possible I could use a building I know of to get a good jump start on this.
Brian
I cannot speak to the fiberglassing as my Prevost isn't fiberglass but the total time for a roof raise for me was 6 weeks from start to finish including removing windows, welding the wall studs,riveting the aluminum side panels and doing all the welding working by myself nights and weekends.
Now to welders, what Bevans says is correct about welder choice. I have had lots of experience with stick welding so when I decided to do the roof raise and knew I would not have 220 volt service in my shop, I looked at as many of the 110 volt wire welder units as I could. I found the Clark mig, available from Orschlends Farm and Ranch supply fit the bill for about $275. It is made well enough to weld 1/4" steel well and there is nothing that thick in buses, at least not my Prevost. It can be used with or without gas, is light enough you can carry it from one end of the bus to the other as you need to move along to make welds. The only drawback is that parts for it must company factory direct, they are very inexpensive by manufacturer standards but it takes a few days to get the parts. I tried several of the units from Miller 110 volt units from Lowes and was just never satisfied with the weld quality. Miller shoud have been a very good name but not sure if they make the unit or someone makes it for them. Your $300 unit sounds like a great unit but may create some portability issues for you unless you make/get some type of rolling stand.
Just some more thoughts. HTH
Rob
91 Prevost LeMirage XL
Missouri
Hi belfert,
By now you should know from your own experience the the timeline you propose is unrealistic if you will be working part time, and probably even if you were working full time. This is not intended to discourage you. It is based on my own experience raising the roof on the Prevost we used to own.
Our MC8 was raised 13", by the previous owner, without any fiberglass work required. They did the raise from the bottom of the side window line and rear cap and above the windshield. The gap that was created between the bottom of the caps and the lower body was filled with framing and aluminum skin. Then the roof, with caps still attached, was lowered onto the new framing and skin and riveted on. That method may not work for you if the caps are attached to a fiberglass body. I have some pictures taken as the work was being done but I'm not smart enough to post them.
Good luck if you decide to do the roof raise. Sam MC8
3 months is not enough time. Period!
Personally, I would not do it again unless the bus was inside a shop.
It sounds like I should just forget about doing this and just live with what I have. I actually have over four months to do the work, not three months, but even that could be cutting it close.
I live in Minnesota so I'm not ever going have six months or a year of warm weather to do this project. Even if I had a year it would mean not using the bus for a year. I don't know any place I could afford to rent a shop long term for something like this.
Not having a raised roof means I'm have to put some serious thinking into how to fix some issues with the bus as it is. I may have to remove all of the spray foam on the ceiling to install conduits for wiring. Right now I'm using flat boat cable for the roof airs, but that all has to come out and be replaced. There is no flat cable alternative that is stranded and listed for RV use.
Brian,
No need to remove all the spray foam, just remove at your cut line, and cut a groove where you need to run wire and you can foam back over it.
Visit your local thrift store and fin an old electric carving Knife. I'm not sure if the vibrating tools work on spray foam. I would guess if it is firm enough.
the foam would make it a little more rigid to work with.
If you did do this, could you rally the rocket firing crew?, seems with a building, planning, and extra tools, rent a welder or two. A crew could could get this done quickly. Have fiberglass ready etc.
If you have to do this alone, read back through your old post, especially right before the trip and see if you want this. ;)
I bet you could squeeze a couple saturdays out of them, especially while it is cold, and don't make them consecutive weekends and you'll get more response.
You would end up with a Buffva-iagilo ;D
Quote from: belfert on February 05, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
Right now I'm using flat boat cable for the roof airs, but that all has to come out and be replaced. There is no flat cable alternative that is stranded and listed for RV use.
Brian,
Most S&S manufacturers use romex to wire the ACs. If properly anchored to prevent vibration, it will outlast you. I am not familiar with "flat boat cable", but would romex work to replace it?
We have done as was already mentioned, cutting the foam, installing wire and re-foaming. When we purchased the spray cans of foam, we found they sell 2 different foams. One expands more times, but does not get as hard. The other type expands less, but is harder when it sets up. Both types were Great Stuff brand and purchased at our local Home Depot. Jack
Gumpy has a way of making a great point.........that is one thing i'd do all over.....build or rent a building and work inside!
I purchased two items when I started my roof raise, a miller 175 mig and plasma arc! both by the time I was finished paid for themselves!
Here are a few pictures of my roof raise:
The guide on the side kept the roof stable and inline....it took about 15 minutes raising the roof.....the getting ready took about 2 weeks.......the welding the raised section in 3 days!
Brian, all I can say is if you really want it raised, take the time to do it now, before you go any further with the finishing. We have had to cool our jets a couple of times for things we wanted done, but really didnt want to take the time required to do it. We really wanted it usable on the road by now, but, at the same time, you only get one shot to get it the way you want it, so, it will take a little longer. Whatever you do, good luck with it, I am sure it will be nice.
My main problem with time is having a deadline of mid September to be on the road again. Considering my bus is outdoors in Minnesota I can't do a whole lot on a roof raise until April 15th at earliest.
I am going to have to live with things the way they are for this year and see if I can find a shop to work in for next fall and winter.
Brian,
I spent right at 3 months completing the roof raise part of our project. This included stripping all windows, drip rails, trim, etc to get ready to do the actual raise. Actual raise, once everything was set up and vertical framing was cut took about 1 hour. Then weeks to complete welding, installing new skin to cover window openings, caps, framing and installing new windows, priming & painting and re-installing drip rails, trim, etc.
In spite of all the work involved, I am glad I did it. I was still working at the time, but I worked a 24 hour on duty/48 hour off duty schedule as a Paramedic/Firefighter, so I basically was able to work on ther coach 2 days out of every 3 days. I am also glad I planned enough time to get it done without having to scramble to finish it. I have heard several people say they wish they had raised the roof, but I have never heard anyone say they wish they had not raised their roof. Jack
It's worth considering that you could be doing a lot of useful preparation work now, even if you don't actually start cutting metal on the bus until April (or even 2011). Once you've got the job planned out you can start on the obvious things like fabricating all the steel extension pieces you need, and buying and cutting to size the skin panels. Then there's a million other jobs to be done and parts to be collected - the weather may be cold and miserable but it's better to be running around town collecting boxes of rivets and tubes of Sikaflex now than to have to do these chores when the sun is shining but time is short and the bus is in a thousand pieces.
Jeremy
PS. Just for the sake of mentioning again something I have described before on the board:- the approach I took to raising my roof was somewhat different to most peoples' in that I left the bus sides completely untouched and made the raise in the roof beams themselves (where they joined the verticals), which meant I had no skinning or glazing work to do at all, just a gap to cover around the periphery of the roof. Because my bus has curved sides I covered the gap with some specially moulded fibreglass panels, but in your case some flat sheet (aluminium or whatever) would probably suffice.
Quote from: Jeremy on February 06, 2010, 12:57:24 PM
It's worth considering that you could be doing a lot of useful preparation work now, even if you don't actually start cutting metal on the bus until April (or even 2011). Once you've got the job planned out you can start on the obvious things like fabricating all the steel extension pieces you need, and buying and cutting to size the skin panels. Then there's a million other jobs to be done and parts to be collected - the weather may be cold and miserable but it's better to be running around town collecting boxes of rivets and tubes of Sikaflex now than to have to do these chores when the sun is shining but time is short and the bus is in a thousand pieces.
I would absolutely start collecting stuff before April if I did this. I actually already bought some low profile roof top A/C units off Ebay. I'll use those regardless if I raise the roof.
Brian here is a web site that may or may not be of assistance to U. I raised the roof on my Eagle and have been super pleased with the results. I wrote the article with the hopes it might assist another busnut should they be looking for some "How To". Many busnuts helped me in many, many ways.
http://users.cwnet.com/thall/genelewis.htm (http://users.cwnet.com/thall/genelewis.htm)
Gene
I was kinda wavering back and forth on trying to do the roof raise this year even though I had initially decided not to do it this year.
Unless I can find a free shop to work in I will be waiting until next winter to do this. I would simply be running too tight on money and probably time too for this year. I can spend the next 9 months or so gather materials and cash for the project.
I may have a line on an inexpensive shop for next winter that would probably include use of a welder.
Jeremy, I like your idea of doing a roof raise from the top. That works great if you are keeping the original windows.
Unfortunately, in my case I probably am forced to reskin unless I can find a trim piece for the the junction between the two pieces of metal I would have. I already skinned over all of the original windows and cut new window holes. I'm not even sure I could maintain the integrity of the roof if I tried to do the job from the top. Still something to think about. Removing the skin and doing it again is a huge amount of work.
Wow, you are right there in Minnesota, can't be far from Gumpy can ya? Check out his website...has the threaded rod lifters I believe.
Craig, you do some nice work.