Greetings All,
I'm brand new to this forum. So please bear with me.
I'm currently looking at two 2 cycle buses one is an intercity 1978 4108 buffalo, and an innercity 1980 RST, both 35 foot long.
The RST has had the side door removed but still needs a side panel cut and fited to cover. its been gutted and a lot of spare bits come with it. (of what utility I don't know) The rear end is still set up for inner-city speed, top end roughly 60 mph. The seller quotes about $4k to rebuild the rear end to get to 75 mph when the governor kicks in.
The 1978 4108 is missing the accelerator cable (the owner is replacing it now) He was going to replace it with an air pedal? for himself but since near as I can tell that's about a $1k in parts. it seems to be his cheaper option. (I'm thinking it will be a good indication of the quality of his maintenance if he fixes what caused it to fail in the first place. We'll see. It is also gutted but a start at a raised floor with 3/4 inch plywood down. That seems to provide a minimum of head space though (I'm over 6 foot tall so that is a problem)
Both seem to start up well with a minimum of white and black smoke seem to come up to pressure. Obviously the buffalo could only creep at low idle forward at this point. I know a little about Mercedes diesels ( I converted a 85 300D to run on used french fry grease with a two tank system of my own design) but little or nothing about 2 cycles, so any points on how to evaluate them would be very welcome (or were to find a FAQ on that, I'm sure I'm not the first with those questions :))
Any way, all that to say this, which would you chose for a first (and maybe last bus) Bus? Or neither and go look for something else.
Either I can probably get for around $7K (with the rear end mod to the RST) how do you actually determine mileage? is there an hour gauge I haven't found yet. The buffalo come with manuals the RST does not.
Thanks for any help,
Dutch
Do you mean RTS ??
If so then check out --> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RTS-bus-nuts/messages (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RTS-bus-nuts/messages)
RTS's (or any bus) from salted area's can have a rust problem - RTS's especially by the rear air bag supports and engine bulkhead
I'll take a chance and send you some RTS info to your PM
Pete RTS/Daytona
Welcome Dutch,
There are a lot of knowledgeable busnuts in Oregon. I'm not that knowledgeable, but learning more everyday. We're over here on the coast right now. Where are the buses and do you know who used to own them? There may be someone in the area that can go look at them with you. There are a lot of used buses available for cheap thanks to the economy, so don't rush into anything you're not sure of.
Again, welcome and good luck, Will and Wife
Both are great buses with loads of potential. Just depends on the actual condition they're in & how they look.
Best advice I've ever gotten is that if you can walk away from it without looking back, keep walking.
If, OTH, you like the looks of the bus & find yourself compelled to look back whenever you walk away from it - you have found the right model for you. ;D
Converting one is hard work & will call your sanity into question - Loving the look of your bus helps make it past the tough times.
Like Pete said, watch out for rust & corrosion. There are too many good buses out there with minimal corrosion issues to spend time bringing one back. If you can't afford a corrosion free bus, you need to carefully reconsider the bargain of a rusty one. . . Sometimes, the lower priced bus isn't the cheapest.
Sometimes, a plane ticket to look at a bus halfway across the country is the best money you can spend - especially if you decide to not buy that particular one. :o
The trips to look at buses have been some of the best vacations I've taken. ;D
Good luck in finding a great bus for your project!
$7 K is too high in this market. Basically these buses are worth scrap price only to all but bus nuts. You could probably get a finished decent conversion for this price. Do a search of craigs in all the states and you will find a bunch of interesting buses, Also a thorough reading of this entire forum will help you know what to look for. Finally as many others will state rust is a HUGE PROBLEM. Learn how to safely get under and around buses and really look for are the structures weakened by rust then X3 for the amount of rust there actually is (my usual rule of thumb with used vehicles do a thorough check and figure there are 3X as many problems as I have observed) once I know a vehicle well I can reduce this to X2, but there is always a bunch of stuff you can't see.
BTW welcome to busnut land ya poor bugger!
Hi Guys,
Whoops absolutly correct :'(. Sorry well my first blunder, certinly not my last I'm sure.
Well no place to go but up from here!
Dutch
Not a blunder.
More like an intelligent first step. ;D
Lots of us here bought first & asked questions later - definitely not the cheapest way to go. ;D
What ZubZub said plus don't go with a RTS unless te bus will only take short trips. They get rougher treatment and have almost no storage and might be geared for a top of 45 mph. I think they are not suitable. There I have just alienated half he board for ya.
You need a bus mechanic to look at the frame and gear and a D mech to eval the engine. Once you own it $7 grand is easy to exceed in repair costs. Try for a fully converted worth $7 grand....in this narket. DD will do the engine eval fr a few hundred and a bus shop will do the insp for a couple hundred and CHOOSE wisely and get advice.
John
Hi Guys,
OK so D mechanic is a diesel mechanic, whats a DD?
The RTS has a proven top speed just over 60mph as is, I rode in it its starting price is right at $2.8K I'm figuring $4K to add the gearing to 75mph.
Dutch
I'm with JohnEd and zubzub. not enough under storage on rts bus.
DD= detroit diesel
Dutch
Hmmm RTS Top Speed 45 MPH - Just goes to show you - You can get your brain frozen by living in the GREAT WHITE NORTH WEST
Most RTS's have transit gearing that limits thier top speed to 60-65 MPH - a change to a 4.10 rear will bring that back up to 75 MPH
As for bay storage - they are absolutly right - My prior motorhome was a Classic GMC with NO BAY STORAGE - now I have 1.5 bays of storage with a bay being about 2' tall by 5' wide and 8' deep (enough for me - cause my RTS has INSIDE ACCESSABLE STORAGE over the engine that's about 6' x 2' x 3') - plus move overhead storage than we know what to do with.
Most good transit companies (again I can't speak for those rubes in the GREAT WHITE NORTH WEST) have excellent maintenance - they have to - so they don't keep sued by some low life lawyers looking for deep pockets - it usually doesn't matter to a transit company if the engine and tranny were replaced just a few months ago - when the records shown that a new grant is available to buy a new bus - that existing bus (no matter how recent the eng/tranny) is sold.
At over 6' 7" the roof of an RTS doesn't have to be raised
Here's what in my little 35' RTS
6V92TA-DDECII - V731 Allison Transmission with 4.10 rear
(76 MPH MAX) up to 9-10 MPG
- NO SMOKE - NO OVERHEAT - NO LEAKS
-Stainless Steel Unibody construction
-140 gallons diesel
-90 gallons waste
-80 gallons fresh
-BurlWood Dash / Tile look flooring / Red Oak trim / Granite look counters & tables
-Campsite Leveling System
-Over the road A/C driver and Co-pilot A/C vent system
-(2) 15 kBTU low profile rooftop A/Cs Ducted
-Finished Ceiling Height (with twin 15K BTU Dometics a/c units - fully ducted) is 78" -
(and that's with an average of (2 3/4") of insulation in the ceiling
FRONT SALON
- A full size 72" convertible couch with fold down drink tray
- 2 swivel Captains chairs with a coffe table between opposite the couch
- 12' (6' per side) of overhead cabinets
- PLUS a 2' x 6' OVERHEAD lighted mirrored ceiling
- 27" LCD HD TV with split screen feature
- LCD Rear view Monitor
KITCHEN/DINETTE
-6' kitchen with double burner / double bowl sink and prep area
- Overhead microwave/ convection oven and Kitchen cabinets
- 2' Gas/electric 9.5 cu ft Dometic Refrigerator
- 6' x 3' dinette area with 6' of overhead cabinets opposite the kichen -
- 6' of Dinette overhead cabinet
- Space for a 2' WASHER/DRYER combination on the dinette side -
- LARGE pantry above washer dryer space
BATHROOM
- 5' walk thru bath (with 2 FULL SIZED 30" mirrored pocket doors with 6'6" clearannce)
- 35" neo-angle glass shower and porcelain direct drop rv toilet on one side -
- TWIN 18" hanging closets with 3 dresser drawers on the bottom
- Center 24" Custon Mirrored Vanity (with a hidden 20 gallon hot water tank under vanity)
REAR SALON / BEDROOM
- Regular Size RV TWIN 80" by 34" beds
- Additional Dressing area between beds
- 5' of overhead caninets on each side
- Full Side to Side Rear "Gun Cabinet" between the side cabinets
- PLUS a huge 6' wide x 2' deep x 3' high mirrored glass door storage closets that
can hold about as much as a full open underbay
BAY STORAGE -
First Tank Bay -->
- 120 gallon "L" shaped tank
- 12 Gallons gas tank for 7 KW Onan Generator
- Twin Portable Propane tanks with Automatic Change-Over
Second Storage Bay--> - approx 8' x 5' x 20"
- RV Storage Area (approx 6' x 5' x 20") -
Remember there is the equivalent "bay" space in a closet above the engine -
that you don't have to go outside in the middle of the night to use.
- 7kw Onan Generator mounted on Drivers Side
- XANTREX Prosine 3000 Watts Inverter
Rear Waste Side Bay
-90 Gallon mixed waste tank with macerator
Rear Center Air Tank Bay
- Alll 4 air tanks
Rear Battery Bay
- 50 amp 110v AC service
- Quantity Four - #31 batteries
- 50 Amp Battery Equalizer
Rear center Bay -> all 4 air tanks
Dutch, welcome. A good part of the decision process revolves around how you intend to use the coach. For example, off-road ventures may require a (gasp) schoolbus conversion. The reason? Light weight, and high road clearance.
Full-timing, or extended road trips, you may do better with a coach (like the 4108 you mention). The reason? They have much more storage space in the baggage bays (sometimes called "basements" - but with 40 years in the bus business, I can hardly even type the word).
Local trips, occasional weekends - a transit (a la the RTS) may be fine. I'm in the transit business -- they're fine buses. Of course, I'm a GM guy, so I'm predjudiced. (The RTS was a General Motors design, following the Fishbowl. First built around 1978, the RTS line was sold to Transportation Manufacturing Corp, Roswell NM when GM got out of the bus business).
Other concerns may come into play. The 4108 is, most likely, a stick shift. They're non-synchromesh 4-speed transmissions, need double-clutching, and can take a while to get used to. Read Russ Long's article on driving a Detroit Diesel stick shift, I think it's in the help section on this board. One fellow who used to be on the board (Spaceship Buffalo) had to trade his stick 4106 for an automatic 4108, because he had trouble with steep driveways, some places he went. Your personal style may be a factor. One member recently bought a Flxible, even though it didn't meet his size criteria, because it was so cool. Speaking of size, is a 35 foot coach enough space for you, or would you really be better off with a 40-footer?
You can probably get the most for your money by buying what you'll need/want, up front. Buying a coach, then changing out the engine, or the transmission, or the whatever -- may be more of an investment than you need to make.
So, maybe you could tell us some of your thoughts on how you think you'll be using the coach? From that, the collective wisdom here might be able to give you some thoughts.
Arthur
Unless money and time are non-issues, buy a good completed conversion, and modify it to meet your needs. In a few short years the bottom has dropped out of old bus conversions so you could never build one for less. Keep looking and you will find just the right one. In the meantime read all of the old post you can on this board so you minimize the chance of making a costly blunder.
Wasn't there a guy mentioned recently in the midwest that has a nice RTS for sale at about 25% of what he put into it? Wulf or something like that?
Hi Guys,
Hmm I'm not entirely sure I'ved defined my needs I have to admit. I spent last summer in the Blue Mountains prospecting and gold mining. Every time I went out I found more gold, so I believe I'd like to do more of that. I had thought to use a coach dragging a trailer with a small 4x4 Jeep of some sort. the large "basements" would be handy for dredges and other equipment. If I could build one with a weeks endurance. Hot showers are a big drive to this for me, not sleeping on the ground (I'm 56 and single) a comfortable bed. Big enough to share with my golden retriever (OK, so he's a little spoiled).
35 foot should be enough space as I don't plan on living in it for the whole summer, just every third week. That might lend itself to a school bus conversion. The problem there Allstate has already told me that they will not write a policy on a school bus conversion? anyone here with experience on that?
I had also thought that there is some money in specialized hauling of small to medium loads interstate. Not sure if their is enough money but adding hauling light trucks and cars on a flatbed might make it pencil out. Are there buses out there better for that?
A third idea If I lose the high paid job I've got right now I could use it to haul all my stuff back to the upper Midwest were I prefer to be. Without having to rent a truck and trailer. Also have a place to live with a minumum outlay (figuring I've done enough of convertion to do so) after off loading most of it into a storage shed somewhere.
With my experiance with running 4 cycle diesels on Waste Vegetable oil that might offset the fuel costs.
So there we are with many conflicting Ideas.
Cheers,
Dutch
Dutch -
Seeing as you sound like a mechanically savvy sorta guy, I'm gonna throw this out. There's this fellow in Virginia about to dismantle / scrap a perfectly beautiful MCI - 5A (35', two-axle OTR coach). A bunch of us tried to talk him out of this, but he's kinda stuck.
This bus is already converted and looks quite livable as is.
The kicker: It needs a rear end and drop box. Very pricey to hire it done, but not bad if you can DIY - and you sound like a guy that could?
BTW, I have no stake in this. In fact, suggesting it is contrary to my own self interest (I've earmarked some of the parts for myself).
But I would much rather see this baby preserved than see it cannabalized for a few free bits and pieces.
If you have any interest, please indicate here (or email me) and I'll get you all info.
Nellie Wilson
You can insure a schoolie and if you are going backroading that is what you need. For all buses you register them as RV then go insure. Finally 4108 is not a good tower (don't know about RTS), can't handle much tongue weight. Read this entire forum and you will will learn something.
p.s. nothing wrong with an RTS I like the head room and stainless construction,no baggage bays perhaps, but he roof looks like it could hold some gear.
Both buses uses V drive and an engine cradle-which is great for an 8 hour engine/transmission change, but not good if you want to tow anything over 5,000lbs-since the trailer hitch is attached to the engine cradle. A bus with a T drive will afford you more structure for a heavy duty trailer hitch.
This is where a schoolie would be good since it has a full length truck frame (usually). And since they have more ground clearance, better for going on dirt roads. Good Luck, TomC
with the use clarified, I'd say a skoolie is the ticket. full frame, ground clearance, off-roadable, plus, I've used them to move cross country several times. hard to beat. there are other companys that will insure a skoolie.
Sounds like a job for an 8-wheel drive Crown with mid engine. My 2centavos, Will
Quote from: Dutch106 on February 04, 2010, 12:28:42 PM
I'm currently looking at two 2 cycle buses one is an intercity 1978 4108 buffalo, and an innercity 1980 RST, both 35 foot long.
Both are overpriced.
Both are also too short -- why buy a 35 footer with so many 40s on the market? Unless you are planning to do a lot of driving in tight quarters (such as downtown in some city), the more length the better.
A transit or skoolie is not welcome at most RV campgrounds (even if it's better inside and out than the sticks and staples rig that pulled in ahead of it), and even some storage yards won't accept them (too many people walk away from them, leaving the yard with a 10-ton paperweight).
If you use crazedlist.org (a craigslist shell) you will find plenty of better choices out there if you do a search on bus conversion.
Dutch, first I am sure we can help you make the right choice as there are a lot of guys here with a lot of knowledge.
First things first though, first we will need to know where you are finding this gold? If you can provide exact GPS coordinates that would be best.
Secondly what kind of quantity of gold are you finding per ton of earth moved?
Thirdly have you filed a claim yet?
I'm sure you understand that the decision on the type of bus is a big one and the more you can help us with the information we need the easier it will be for us all.
WVaNative
And the new BusNuts Gold Mining Coop of America
Quote from: Dutch106 on February 04, 2010, 08:14:05 PM
Hi Guys,
Hmm I'm not entirely sure I'ved defined my needs
Now that I've read this, I'm going to suggest that you forget the coach idea altogether. Your need is for a good diesel 4x4 pickup or Suburban with a strong trailer hitch. If you can find a good used diesel dually with all-wheel-drive, you have it made! There is no shortage of cheap used trailers on the market, so you can buy one and store it near your hunting grounds when you're not using it.
This will be your all-around best choice, giving you the most options and the least cost, AND gives you the best resale value. You can also do the "haul-for-pay" idea (which would be unworkable with the bus).
Instead of starting with a $7000 project, you can get away with a ready-to-go package under $5000. I bought a 1994 diesel Suburban 4WD from a craigslist ad for $2300 a couple of months ago, and while I was doing my MCI conversion last year I lived in a 24-foot a travel trailer that I bought for $800. Now that the coach is done, I keep the trailer near some land that I own in Nevada and pull it out there when I want to spend a few days, rather than risking the coach on muddy roads.
Hey WVA,
First you go to Baker City turn left drive a hour turn right and there you are! It averages about 30 ton to the color (the smallest bit that is gold color to the human eye)
I finished last year with about $2500 in equipment and 20 or so grams of placer gold (about 6-700 dollars worth) and its hard physical work. After spending all my free time last summer. SO its about the same wage I made in the army about .33 an hour not counting buying the equipment.
So we come to converting buses to RV's hmm could be there a familiar thread in this, Gee I know not a particular strong brain.
So I have maps and equipment for sale for proven gold mines. Cheap really! All have gold (most just not enough to pay your gas costs of running the dredge unfortunately)
On the same (silly) Note the great Cornucopia mine in the Blue mountains in North Eastern Oregon is up for sale. Just 4 million. Its even been worked in the last 20 years. so the water is not all the way to the surface. Cheap!
On a much more serious note: there really is gold to be found, its relatively easy to find tiny little specks called color with just a 10 dollar gold pan. If anyone is looking for an excuse for a vacation that is very doable and the blue mountains are really beautiful, the air full of spruce and pine. Sassy fish. I spend way to much time chasing small fish away from the mouth of the dredge.
Hells Canyon is just around the corner.
Most of the time not all that many people. Particularly back in the toolies.
Shoot for you guys I'll even teach you to use a gold pan.
Hmm its starting to sound like I need to look around for a diesel schoolie or two to drive. I notice the gassers around for 1.5K a lot it seems like the diesels aren't two much more. I think I even saw a schoolie with a basement!
Perhaps after making my big score (you know a nice pocket with a hundred ounces just sitting there) I can come back and rebuild a nice intercity.
Cheers,
Dutch
PS Nellie I'm out on (nearly) the west coast fixing a bus on the east coast sounds like to much of an adventure for even me, Sorry.
Quote from: Dutch106 on February 05, 2010, 10:11:42 AM
On the same (silly) Note the great Cornucopia mine in the Blue mountains in North Eastern Oregon is up for sale.
No thanks, I don't need to buy a water mine. ;)
I recently posted a response here about Gillig transits - like my Crown, they're tough and have a full-length frame, but unlike my bus thay probably have airbags and slightly less under-floor space. As others have suggested (if you can withstand the social stigma of being associated with the Skoolie crowd!), a school bus is the only bus able to handle poor roads - Blue Bird even has a factory in Guatamala to make that country's chicken buses! A pusher skoolie will have a full-length frame strong enough to attach a tow hitch to without any problems, unlike most monocoque OTR coaches. Someone mentioned a 10-wheel Crown - excellent off-road ability because both axles are driven, and there is also an inter-axle differential lock to improve traction; however, all mid-engine Crown and Gillig skoolies (all the ten-wheelers are mid-engine) do not have a full frame running all the way to the back. The mid-engine buses have a huge luggage compartment under the back seats which serves as a crumple zone to protect the occupants if the bus is rear-ended by a car, but the bodywork there is not structural. If you attach a hitch back there it would tear off! With enough ingenuity a frame can be made to connect a hitch to the main frame rails - look on the Skoolie forum how others have done this.
Some rural CA school districts ran their Crowns over unpaved desert roads for many decades, so a heavy-duty bus like that should easily handle what you need. Simple, tough, good ground clearance, standard class-8 truck parts - sounds like it may work for you.
John
Hi Guys,
Hey WVA no guts, no glory (also no late night conferances with the SO about how you spend your money)
So is there any better place to find one of these 10 wheel Crowns? I don't know I have ever seen one? are they any more diffacult to maintain or rebuild? Sounds like were you put the radiator would be tough?
There was a schoolie Gillig up North of here cheap under a grand that was gone when I Called to ask questions about.
My Real dilema what do I offer this guy and how do I tell him his price is too high?
The Guy with the 4108 has the accelerator cable in and wants me to go take a look and drive it. Several folks have said that $7.5 K is to high a price for a stripped 1978 4108, the exterior is pretty rough as well at least paint needed most of the windows have been removed and skinned and the roof excapes replaced with vents (in rough shape) whats it worth? assuming the engine, transmition and basic running gear in descent shape (and how do I tell)?
Please help oh great and wise busnut minds, help the poor bus virgin out!!!!! ;D
Enquiring minds want to know. ::)
Dutch
Hi Guys,
Here is the verbage from the craigslist Addy the pictures didn't make it across for some reason? It feels really strange as he's the one who pointed me at you guys.
Dutch
This is a 1978 GMC P8M4108A motor coach. It is a 35' single rear axle coach. It is powered by a supercharged Detroit 8V71 diesel pusher with an Allison 4 speed manual transmission. All the seats and passenger related equipment have been removed. The floor has been removed and replaced with marine grade ¾ " plywood. It is ready for you to convert it to the floor plan of your choosing. There is a 4000 watt generator with less than 10 hours on it, two new batteries, a brand new permanent mount LP tank, brand new Alcoa aluminum wheels for the front and rear, two new Michelin tires up front ($450 each) and boxes of manuals, brochures and parts catalogs. It has auto load sensing self adjusting air ride suspension, air brakes and power steering. There are two very large luggage compartments below as well as compressor and generator bays that you don't get with "stick and staple motor homes'. This is a serious piece of equipment designed for millions of miles of service. I drove it here from Wisconsin 2 years ago and it has been sitting ever since. Everything on this bus works, the engine can sit for a year and it starts immediately and idles smooth without smoking (more than a diesel should). You should expect 9-10 mpg no mater what you put in or behind it and it motors up the passes with no trouble at all. You won't find this much for this price anywhere else. I just don't have the time for it and feel it should be passed on to someone who does.
I'd look for a Crown. They were made in CA, so not too far away. . . .
Very sturdy buss with unique looks.
The diff lockout is indeed a handy thing to have when off roading. . .
Roof raises can be done, but then you'd need a larger hole in the woods . . . BTW, how much time are you standing up inside the coach? ::)
The biggest 'issue' with a crown is the engine having to be on it's side. Limited selection of engines that will accommodate the special modifications required - But, there are several to choose from.
For your planned use, I'd stick with a bus that has a real frame under it - makes trailer pulling so much easier to do without loads of reinforcing.
Quote from: Dutch106 on February 05, 2010, 03:55:07 PM
Hi Guys,
Here is the verbage from the craigslist Addy the pictures didn't make it across for some reason? It feels really strange as he's the one who pointed me at you guys.
Dutch
This is a 1978 GMC P8M4108A motor coach. It is a 35' single rear axle coach. It is powered by a supercharged Detroit 8V71 diesel pusher with an Allison 4 speed manual transmission. All the seats and passenger related equipment have been removed. The floor has been removed and replaced with marine grade ¾ " plywood. It is ready for you to convert it to the floor plan of your choosing. There is a 4000 watt generator with less than 10 hours on it, two new batteries, a brand new permanent mount LP tank, brand new Alcoa aluminum wheels for the front and rear, two new Michelin tires up front ($450 each) and boxes of manuals, brochures and parts catalogs. It has auto load sensing self adjusting air ride suspension, air brakes and power steering. There are two very large luggage compartments below as well as compressor and generator bays that you don't get with "stick and staple motor homes'. This is a serious piece of equipment designed for millions of miles of service. I drove it here from Wisconsin 2 years ago and it has been sitting ever since. Everything on this bus works, the engine can sit for a year and it starts immediately and idles smooth without smoking (more than a diesel should). You should expect 9-10 mpg no mater what you put in or behind it and it motors up the passes with no trouble at all. You won't find this much for this price anywhere else. I just don't have the time for it and feel it should be passed on to someone who does.
RUN as FAST as you can, The guy offering the bus has no idea what he is trying to sell.
There is NO allison 4-speed manual transmission, Like there is NO such thing as a supercharged Detroit Diesel 8V71. Seriously this ad sounds bogus already.
An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.
The 4-speed Manual is probably a Spicer 4-speed non-synchronized type as typical with Buffalo's.
The First and Reverse Gears are So tall that you can't get rolling easily on hilly terrain and will eventually suffer clutch failures which are not pretty or cheap to fix.
As to applicability for going into remote places. Neither the RTS or the Buffalo will work due to limited ground clearance issues. Sand and Mud are your worst enemies. These busses will get stuck at the hint of getting off paved roads. You can't just yank them out with a pickup truck either!!! Takes a BIG Class-C (30 to 50 ton) wrecker to pull them loose.
You need an all wheel drive schoolie with loads of ground clearance and a big winch on both ends.
Good Luck...
Quote from: DrDave-Reloaded on February 05, 2010, 05:40:06 PM
there is NO such thing as a supercharged Detroit Diesel 8V71. An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.
I thought a blower & supercharger were the same thing, just called by a different name. What is the difference bvetween the 2? Jack
Thanks Jack! I had the same question.
Dutch,
I have to second the "run away" vote. He is asking double what that bus is worth and I really don't think it would do what you want.
Glenn
ANY vehicle can be made into an all wheel drive. Check out Tuthill.com and the hydraulic front axle drive system. You replace the existing hub ends with 55hp each hydrostatic motors that run off the PTO of the transmission. It has a simple on off switch, and when on automatically switches off at 25 mph and then free wheels. Only thing is the cost-$35,000 using their axle. Good Luck, TomC
One major concern I would have is he says he brought it back from wisconsin, I base out of the upper penninsula and it's just north of wisconsin, I've very familiar with the state, it's one of the heaviest salt using states I've ever seen, I think that bus will be a major rust issue.
all wheel drive skoolie still sounds like the answer. maybe someone will chime in, didn't places like colorado have fleets of all wheel drive buses for mountain school districts? this being said however, the coment about winches got me thinking. how bout a surplus military 6x6? I'm thinking the old communications models. big box on back, lots of ground clearance, winch equiped, multifuel engine. win win win. ;D
Jack, that got me curious as to whether the Roots Blower is a supercharger. I, too, always thought the Roots Blower is a supercharger. So does Wikipedia. [url][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_type_supercharger/url] So, I see nothing wrong with the ad, other than calling the Spicer an Allison - easily understood since GM's Detroit Diesel division became the Detroit Diesel Allison Division.
It does seem to me that he may be optimistic about price, given the current market. However, new front tires, generator, etc. - maybe not that much. I'd wonder about the rear tires, and general condition (rust, bulkhead, etc.). The blank canvas to do the interior could be an asset - we have to redo part of the interior of our 4107 because it was designed for a family with a lot of kids. However, interiors take money, and it does look like you can get something ready to use for the same dollars these days.
Bottom line - the guy looks on the up and up to me.
What's far more important, though, is that a coach, suburban, or transit doesn't look like the right vehicle for this application. If I were working on the decision, my first focus would be on whether the tool would work. In my woodshop, I have some tools that seemed like the right purchases but as I gained more knowledge and skill, they ended up on the shelf, or even given away.
Arthur
In this market I bet it would take a long time for me to sell my bus for $10k if it sold at all. It has a good looking functional interior, and all of the GM conversion upgrades that most want like PS, AT, Jakes, Spring brakes, Alcoa wheels, a huge radiator etc. And it has just proven itself very roadworthy, after crawling all through the Rockies. If I gave it a decent looking paint job I could cross my fingers and go to $15k. Unfortunately, for those who have started projects when the values were higher and now have lost interest, they are going to take a bath on any sale. A "shell", no matter how many "parts", is worth slightly more than scrap.
My bus as an example:
Inside (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2547.0;attach=282;image)
Outside (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2547.0;attach=281;image)
I also cast my vote for the skoolie.
Technically, a roots blower is a super charger in
certain applications. However, in conjunction with a 2 stroke Detroit engine, it's not a super charger.. since all it does is supply the air that makes cumbustion possible.
A 2 stroke Detroit doesn't create vacuum of it's own, (2 stroke Detroit's won't run without the blower), so it has to have the roots blower to force air into the cylinder in order to be able to run at all.
In a super charger application, the roots blower compresses the air, adding
more volume, doing a similar job that a turbo does.
Quote from: JackConrad on February 06, 2010, 04:50:24 AM
Quote from: DrDave-Reloaded on February 05, 2010, 05:40:06 PM
there is NO such thing as a supercharged Detroit Diesel 8V71. An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.
I thought a blower & supercharger were the same thing, just called by a different name. What is the difference bvetween the 2? Jack
To explain it a little more clearly, the blower IS a supercharger, but in the 2-strokes it simply provides the few inches of pressure necessary to push new air into the cylinders. A turbocharged 2-stroke is actually a "two-stage" supercharged engine, with the turbo providing boosted pressure to the blower.
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I was barking up the wrong tree thanks for putting me straight guys and gals.
Barn owl that's a nice looking bus I really like the interior, I would think it would push more even with the market in the full failure mode its in. I saw a bus a retired fellow who had lost his wife was selling for 30K that looked almost as nice with a fancy paint job on the out side. I thought if I had 30 K to throw around I'd like to go look at.
The caveat being I'm new to this of course, but very professional looking from afar.
Could anyone please point me were to looking for info on finding, evaluating and converting sckoolies?
Dutch
skoolie.net :)
I have read the term "neutral displacement" to describe the function of the blower. It only moves the amount of air that is needed to support combustion.
Hello All
I have never been to this site. I usually stick to the GMC based site to gather information about busses. I am forced to join in this discussion in an effort to clear up some misguided and uninformed advice being given to the fellow looking at my 4108. I will try to tackle the issues one at a time.
1. I inadvertently called the trans an Allison instead of the Spicer unit that it is. My bad. I have not used this bus in several years and made a mistake. This does not mean "The guy offering the bus has no idea what he is trying to sell." If DRDAVE-RELOADED would like to sit down and talk GMC's, let's go.
2. "The 4-speed Manual is probably a Spicer 4-speed non-synchronized type as typical with Buffalo's. The First and Reverse Gears are So tall that you can't get rolling easily on hilly terrain and will eventually suffer clutch failures which are not pretty or cheap to fix."
This is typical with thousands of Buffalo's for a very good reason. It is an excellent transmission. The correct way to start this bus from a stopped position is a "dead throttle" start. That means using no throttle when letting the clutch out. No throttle combined with a wet clutch equals very long clutch life. GM would not have used this combination for so long if it didn't work well. Why have none of you pointed out to him the fact that he would be better off with this combination that was engineered to work together that to take a city bus designed for slow driving and spend a ton of money trying to get it to do something it was not built to do????
3. "The 1978 4108 is missing the accelerator cable (the owner is replacing it now) He was going to replace it with an air pedal? for himself but since near as I can tell that's about a $1k in parts. it seems to be his cheaper option. (I'm thinking it will be a good indication of the quality of his maintenance if he fixes what caused it to fail in the first place."
What causes a throttle cable in a 31 year old bus to fail is called age,use and wear & tear. I don't know any mechanic capable of fixing that.
4. "One major concern I would have is he says he brought it back from wisconsin, I base out of the upper penninsula and it's just north of wisconsin, I've very familiar with the state, it's one of the heaviest salt using states I've ever seen, I think that bus will be a major rust issue."
Two major problems with this guy and the others warning of rust issues. Anyone knowledgable in GMC's knows they are an all aluminum bus. Go back to school. Aluminum equals no rust. Extra credit to Kyle4501 to warn about corrosion of which this bus has little to none at all. Second, anyone who is "very familiar with the state" would know that the northern half of the state where I was living as well as the rural areas use no salt at all, only sand. Besides the bus spent the majority of it's life in Texas and was to my knowledge never driven in Wisconsin in winter.
5. As to the several comments about it being worth slightly more than scrap, there are two brand new Michelin steering tires up front mounted on two brand new Alcoa rims as well as two rims for the rear still in the box. There is also an Onan 4000w generator with less than 10 hours on it. The cost of these items alone exceed the scrap value of the bus.
6. "An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't."
The term blower and supercharger are the same thing. If it looks like a supercharger and walks like a supercharger, IT IS A SUPERCHARGER!!!! Where do you think the hotrod term that you can see dozens of times in any hotrod magazine "8-71 style blower" comes from.
7. There are a class of people out there that feel the only way they can show other people how important or valuable they are is it bad mouth or demean them. Doing this makes them feel important. When the rest of us see them this is not the opinion we have of them. This fellow came to you and asked for your knowledge and advice in buying a bus, while many of you did honestly help him with sound advice, some fell short. Look in the mirror and see which one you are.
8. Kuddos to Runcutter. Finally the voice of experience.
9. "A "shell", no matter how many "parts", is worth slightly more than scrap."
This honestly has to be to worst of all. According to this guy a shell with no parts is worth the same as a shell with all the parts needed to build a complete bus conversion. Maybe I'm stupid, but as a guy who has had to pay for these worthless parts, I have to assign a real value to useful and needed parts.
10. "Technically, a roots blower is a super charger in certain applications. However, in conjunction with a 2 stroke Detroit engine, it's not a super charger.. since all it does is supply the air that makes cumbustion possible. A 2 stroke Detroit doesn't create vacuum of it's own, (2 stroke Detroit's won't run without the blower), so it has to have the roots blower to force air into the cylinder in order to be able to run at all. In a super charger application, the roots blower compresses the air, adding more volume, doing a similar job that a turbo does."
This is true at sea level. At altitude it does provide boost to match conditions at sea level. Very nice to have at altitude, it will not suffer power loss. That is why they use the same setup on aircraft.
BK, since you're new here, I'm going to be gentle on you.
The folks on this site represent (by my own estimation) about 600 years worth of experience with coaches, and at least half of us have owned at least one GMC.
When you say "Anyone knowledgable in GMC's knows they are an all aluminum bus. Go back to school" you are showing your own ignorance -- there is a LOT of steel in the Buffalo, and rust IS a problem.
Then you say "According to this guy a shell with no parts is worth the same as a shell with all the parts needed to build a complete bus conversion. Maybe I'm stupid, but as a guy who has had to pay for these worthless parts, I have to assign a real value to useful and needed parts."
You can assign any value you like, but you are in a forum with a few dozen users who know a LOT about the value of a coach shell and of conversion parts. As a general rule, the "conversion parts" which come with a project are the wrong parts in the first place. If you look back through the years' worth of messages here, you will see that we've thrown away tons of "conversion parts."
Lose the attitude and you are welcome here.
.
So you are telling me you would throw away a set of Michelin steering tires valued at over $1200 that have less than 1500 miles on them as well as the two brand new Alcoa rims they are mounted on, the two Alcoa rims that are still in the box for the rears as well as the new onan 4000 generator and brand new 60 gal propane tank etc. With over 600 years experience I would think some one here would see value in such items and add that value to the price of a shell. As for taking it easy on my, don't worry. I am a big boy and can take the heat just fine. P.S. I would love to do some dumpster diving at your house with all the valuable items you seem to dicard.
BK, you've demonstrated your superior knowledge of all things bus related, and I humbly bow to your ability, I stand by my knowledge of the roads in wisconsin and the useage of salt after having driven on them for 45 years along with the roads in most areas surrounding them. I will also add that I truely hope you can find some fool to pay the inflated price you seem to feel you're warrented in this market, remember, an item is only worth what a person is willing to pay and I would hope you can find some unwitting individual to spend the extra money that you seem to be demanding but my feelings are that it won't be on this board, the crew here has been around buses for a long time, most have been involved with the most of their lives, in the service area, drivers, owners, in my case converters, we've all been around the block so my suggestion to you is to do some reading here, you may find it to be educational. Your missteps in confusing trannys, body construction and general bus knowledge is not a sign of a veteran of the bus world. When I first saw your nicname I thought it was the one of a highly respected individual here on the board that we call BK, after reading the first sentance of your diatribe I knew it wasn't him.
Quote from: BK on February 07, 2010, 07:35:32 PM
This is true at sea level. At altitude it does provide boost to match conditions at sea level. Very nice to have at altitude, it will not suffer power loss. That is why they use the same setup on aircraft.
Wrong.
In a two stroke Detroit Engine the roots blower never, ever matches sea level air pressure at altitude. It's not in the nature of the beast.
With one caveat ~ as long as it is a stock configuration. The roots blower in a Detroit can't supply more than the air pressure available at whatever altitude it's at because the engine has no intake valves, only ports, and the exhaust valves are open to the atmosphere until well after bottom dead center.
The engine does suffer power loss at altitude.. that's why it smokes.
In an aircraft with a gasoline engine, the exhaust valves close before the piston starts upward in it's compression stroke and the engine itself draws its own volume of air with the piston moving downward on the intake stroke.
You really need to learn something about the difference between 2 stroke diesel engines and 4 stroke gasoline engines.
In the Two stroke diesel application, the blower is is NOT a supercharger, no matter what it looks like.
I've been a member of the Yahoo GMC group for years, as have many others on this board. There isn't much that you can tell us about GMC's that we haven't seen or done with them.
As for being an "All Aluminum Coach" Geeez, what school did you go to? Every upright, every roof brace, the cap, and many other parts are made of mild steel and rust just like any other mild steel.
Stick a magnet here and there on your bus, you'll be surprised where it does stick.
Maybe you should scrap the bus, just to be sure you can't get anyone else hurt with your misinformation.
Thanks for the information. I'm going to run out right now and check my roof braces for road salt corrosion.
Sounds like a good idea. Do you have any idea what holds your engine in place? If so would you please describe it in the detail you claim to have the knowledge of? Just as a starting point?
It is held in with steel bolts connected to a steel cradle which sits behind the steel rear end which is behind the steel front end suspension. All of which are rust free. I am amazed the you people think you can accurately appraise the bus and parts I am selling without ever having seen them or asking what they are. Are you just using your combined "600 years" of experience ( with 2400 members averages out to 3 months each) to telepathically appraise it?
Now thats entertaining and proves the point lol.
BK,
You are out of the shoot with both guns a blazin'. Welcome to the board. I think you will find that we are here to help, and you will also find that those that spend time here on this board and the other boards are some of the finest people you can meet. I absolutely agree that your items have value. We are talking in generalities here and the original poster didn't include everything in his description. I know you referred him to this site and now you are finding it frustrating that you are having to defend the bus that you have for sale and you really don't need to. I want you to get the fairest price you can for what you have and see the buyer and seller happy. You didn't loose a sale to the OP because his application would not be suited for an intercity bus. I don't like what has happend to prices myself and it saddens me to see some completed conversions scrapped just because they have a bad tranny or blown motor. Unfortunately there is a fellow busnut doing just that very thing. He is trying to reduce his loss by parting his bus out and that is about the best one can do in this economic climate of uncertainty. Now, the OP asked us a question, and we answered it to the best of our ability. We would do the same for you if you asked "I want to sell my bus. How much is it worth?". I am not an appraiser, or pretend to be one, but I have seen many buses for sale. I stand by what I posted and will be the first here to publicly state I was wrong if and when I am. How about posting a list of what you have and some photos of your bus and the parts? That might be a good way to clarify what your saying is a misrepresentation of what you have. We are all a part of a small niche hobby, and if it wasn't for the few bus boards out there with others willing to share their opinions and tips (right or wrong), many of us would not be able to participate.
Barn Owl
Barn owl, your right, what I did was to condemn a rookie member thats new to the board, thats not what this board is all about, we've got very knowledgeable people here, I'm certainly glad BK is proud of his bus and rightfully so, many here are intimately familiar with the buffalos and they are a fine bus, they have their issues but most buses do. I'd like to publically apologize to BK for my taking a stand in regards to the area I live in and the areas surrounding it in regards to whether they use salt or not, and certainly the items have value, all items have value, market value may be a different animal at this time and yes we do throw away many items that once had value too. Anyone thats been trying to sell a bus is rightfully dismayed at the market conditions, those that are buying are finding value that has been unseen in recent years, in many cases some very nice buses are being scrapped because the prices the buses are bringing are very close to the scrap prices, like it or not, the market is in the toilet while scrap prices are holding on the high side.
Barn Owl
It is very nice to meet you and read your post. Cody, I accept you apology and send you mine. I have found over the years on GMC-busnut forum, the people are very knowledgeabe, helpful and friendly. I am sure this forum is no different. I was extremely upset and offended when I found out a perspective buyer of my bus was being told it was a piece of junk, over priced and I was an idiot who didn't know anything about what I was selling, all without ever meeting or talking to me, seeing my bus or even asking what exactly it was that I was selling. If the buyer had told me his plans or needs I would have told him myself that a coach was not going to do what he wanted it to do or go where he wanted to go. He represented himself to me as someone who had done his homework and knew what he wanted. I have relisted my bus on craigslist minus all of the extras which I will sell separately, and reduced the asking price to $6000. Still probably high, but I have found that no one will pay asking price for anything anymore, so it is a starting point. BTW what is the going scrap price for one of these old girls. Know anyone looking for a new set of rims and some pretty nice tires???
Respectfully
Brian
BK, your relisting the bus is a far more logical approach in regards to recouping some money, my personal history involves almost 40 years of piling sawdust in S&S units, travel trailers, buses, homes and almost anything else that can hold a cabinet, perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the volumes of corrosives they put on the roads up here, it's a constant battle to keep ahead of the problem, if buses were concidered disposable then we probably wouldn't care but because they often last for generatiosn it can become an issue that is a headache to deal with. In the past year I've redone the bays in my iggle and once again have a handle on my personal rust problems, in redoing bus interiors a person becomes painfully aware of each particular buses problem areas, buffalos were not immune to these issues, none of them were, if the bus spent limited time in wisconsin then the issue is mitigated somewhat but regardless, I've waded thru volumes of salt and sand over the years in the road issues from both upper michigan and wisconsin, I live almost directly north of wausaw and travel extensively thru it at all times of the year, most recently being a week and a half ago with my next trip to stephans point coming up in about 3 weeks, anyway, welcome to the board and hopefully your cruise thru here will smooth out somewhat, just be aware that many here on the board have been heavily involved with buses for 30 or 40 years and some many more years than that but I won't tattle on them or reveil there advancing age lol, as far as bus mechanics we have some of the best and some with national reknown, all in all, an extremely knowledgeable and helpful group and one that will help whenever possible but also fiercely independant and protective of the other members of the board. Now that your a member take some time to get to know the other members and read some of the threads, as another busnut you'll find them interesting I'm sure. And again, welcome to the insanity.
Hi BK and welcome. Pretty sure you are the real thing as far as Busnuts go, some of the best usually come here and have some sort of tiff at first (kind of like when a dog meets a new pack). Anyhow the nuttier bussers always seem up for a scrap I guess it's part of what makes them busnuts. BTW posts some pics, you never know, when all's said and done you may find a buyer here, and yeah it's a shame about the economy, my bus was a deal when I got it, now I wish I could sell it and buy 5 times the bus for 2 times the price,
BK,
Welcome to this BB. As you have already found, this BB, like any family, occasionally has little tiffs, but overall, it it a great family that will anything to help. Over the years, we have even raised money for busnuts in need. Ask a question and you may get more answers than you want, some of which may seem off the wall. Then, it is up to you to sort through the answers and pick the ones that you feel will help you.
You might want to change your sign-on name. The reason I say that is because we have a member that signs on as Busted Knuckle and is frequently referred to by other members as BK. This might avoid some confusion in the future. (I would not want to be mistaken for Busted Knuckle LOL) Jack
We were at a pretty good point of mutual apologies here.
Let's all step out for breath of refreshing winter air and try this again in the spirit of those well said apologies. ;)
Don't let 'em get you down BK-2. There's a pretty good chocolate to dogsh** or wheat to chaff ratio around here but that doesn't mean there isn't still some chaff and other brown stuff. If you stick around you'll pretty soon learn to recognize the two by their sources.
Seeing as how the attack has now gone off the public sector I'd like to take the moment to publicly retract my apology, it was apparently premature.
Bobofthenorth
Thanks. It really isn't that hard to spot the two.
Hmm, time for a cool down me thinks.